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Rama_Lei
2007-02-04, 07:34 PM
I'm rolling up a ranger and was reviewing TWF and thought that there was a simple fix, since as earlier arguments stated, THF was better. What about reducing the penalties by another 2 if you main weapon is light also? By completing the tree, you get two extra attacks and no penalties. What do you think?

The Glyphstone
2007-02-04, 08:04 PM
It'd make the Tempest PrC almost 100% redundant. Don't know how it would affect the math vs. THF Power Attack though.

Rama_Lei
2007-02-04, 08:07 PM
What and where is the Tempest PrC?

Rebonack
2007-02-04, 08:13 PM
I'm in favor of making the three main TWF feats one feat and giving the user the ability to attack with both main and off-hand weapons as a standard action (or a charge). Use the other combat style Ranger feats for things like Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting or Two-Weapon Rend or the like.

I don't see any inherent problem with your idea for a Ranger, though it would be boosting a Rogue's damage output on a full attack by roughly ten percent.

I'm sure that would make the gimpy little guys overjoyed.

ishi
2007-02-04, 08:20 PM
What and where is the Tempest PrC?

The Tempest is a PrC in Complete Adventurer based around TWF. If I remember correctly (though I didn't have a lot of time to read closely) there's also a new TWFer in ToB.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-04, 08:21 PM
Rogue, not Rouge. The Rouge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10445) is something completely different.

Rama_Lei
2007-02-04, 08:25 PM
The Tempest is a PrC in Complete Adventurer based around TWF. If I remember correctly (though I didn't have a lot of time to read closely) there's also a new TWFer in ToB.
Ah, "when in doubt, just make a PrC" But why should you have to take a PrC to come up even? Reducing the penalties is simple and not broken. I think I'm going to count this as a homebrew rule for rangers only.

Grey Watcher
2007-02-04, 08:29 PM
Shameless plug (http://www.gorbashkazdar.com/twf.html)

Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-04, 08:41 PM
Counter-shameless plug (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33436)

Matthew
2007-02-04, 09:18 PM
Counter, counter shameless plug:

Even Handed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1793539#post1793539)
Mobile Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1798151#post1798151)
Two Weapon Fighting (Alternate) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31337)
Two Weapon Defence (Alternate) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31338)

There are a lot of fixes out there for Two Weapon Fighting and there have been two or three fairly major threads discussing it in the last couple of months:

Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30734)
Why Two Weapon Fighting Sucks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31844)
Two Weapon Fighting and Magic Weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32697)

I do think that Two Weapon Fighting should always mean at least -2 / -2 AB penalties; really it is the other the other problems that make it such a weak choice [Multiple Attribute Dependency, Off Hand Strength Penalty, Full Attack Dependency, Number of Feats required, etc.].

Darrin
2007-02-04, 10:04 PM
What and where is the Tempest PrC?

A 5-level PrC in Complete Adventurer (much MUCH better than that 10-level monstrousity from Masters of the Wild). At 4th level, they get something called I think Improved Ambidexterity, reduces TWF penalty by 2. At 5th I think they get two-weapon spring attack, which is stupendously better than that worthless Dual Strike feat.

Yes, there are many, many bitter critics of TWF on these boards, but even BWL I think will concede that TWF can keep up with the THF bozos if you can suplement your damage with something like Sneak Attack or Skirmish damage. Ranger/Scout actually works extremely well, helps you get into Highland Stalker for more skirmish damage.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-04, 10:11 PM
I'd just fold the feats into one, with Dexterity pre-requisites for extra attacks. So just MAD, Off-hand Strength and Full Attack dependency left. The latter two can be fixed by making them feats. It would still be a feat intensive style, but not nearly as bad as requiring 6 feats just to get decent attack/defense.

Cybren
2007-02-04, 10:12 PM
Well TWF is good if you have a source of alternate damage. Rangers atleast get their favored enemy damage.

greenknight
2007-02-05, 03:26 AM
This might be a good fix if THF were better than TWF in all cases, but it's not. With TWF, you have more opportunities to hit your foe, which means there's a greater chance to score a critical, and you can maximize any bonus damage you get from your weapons, which can be very significant at high levels. For example, consider a pair of Kukri's +1 (boosted to +5 through Greater Magic Weapon), with Flaming Burst/Icy Burst, Shocking Burst and Merciful on them. With GTWF, that's 3 extra attacks per round with an extra (5 + 3d6) damage per hit, with potentially another 2d10 damage on a critical, and you also get to add half your character's Strength bonus.

TWF generally beats THF for strong Rangers, Monks making unarmed attacks, and Rogues (and/or any other class which gets a sneak attack bonus). Any character who uses poison will also get some advantage out of TWF, since it gives you two weapons you can apply your poison to.

Rangers get the TWF chain of feats (excluding TWD, which isn't that useful really) for free as they gain class levels, and they don't need to meet the Dex requirement. And they get even more bonus damage per attack if facing a favored enemy. Give them a pair of powerful weapons (like the Kukris above) and the right Feats (WF: Kukri and Improved Crit: Kukri are good choices), and they can become melee powerhouses.

In the case of a Monk, their unarmed attacks generally do more damage than if they were using a Two Handed weapon (especially at higher levels), so most times they'll be using light weapons anyway. According to the latest FAQ, TWF stacks with Monk unarmed attacks in 3.5e (note, this is a change from 3.0e), so with TWF, ITWF and GTWF, that Monk can make an additional 3 attacks per round, although it does mean all their attacks suffer an extra -2 to hit. Still, that can be a pretty good tradeoff.

Sneak attackers like Rogues benefit the most from the TWF chain of feats, since they get a lot of bonus damage per attack (provided their sneak attacks work). A Fighter 4 / Rogue 5 / Assassin 6 / Invisible Blade (from Complete Warrior) 5 has a BAB 16 of and adds 2 (from Weapon Specialization) + 9d6 damage per round. As an Assassin, this character would probably also use poison, making TWF even more effective.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-05, 04:41 AM
This might be a good fix if THF were better than TWF in all cases, but it's not. With TWF, you have more opportunities to hit your foe, which means there's a greater chance to score a critical, and you can maximize any bonus damage you get from your weapons, which can be very significant at high levels. For example, consider a pair of Kukri's +1 (boosted to +5 through Greater Magic Weapon), with Flaming Burst/Icy Burst, Shocking Burst and Merciful on them. With GTWF, that's 3 extra attacks per round with an extra (5 + 3d6) damage per hit, with potentially another 2d10 damage on a critical, and you also get to add half your character's Strength bonus.

And there went a large chunk of your WBL. And 2 spells.


TWF generally beats THF for strong Rangers, Monks making unarmed attacks, and Rogues (and/or any other class which gets a sneak attack bonus). Any character who uses poison will also get some advantage out of TWF, since it gives you two weapons you can apply your poison to.

Sneak attackers like Rogues benefit the most from the TWF chain of feats, since they get a lot of bonus damage per attack (provided their sneak attacks work). A Fighter 4 / Rogue 5 / Assassin 6 / Invisible Blade (from Complete Warrior) 5 has a BAB 16 of and adds 2 (from Weapon Specialization) + 9d6 damage per round. As an Assassin, this character would probably also use poison, making TWF even more effective.

TWF mainly works better as a way to apply Ability Damage/Drain than actual damage(Each die of Sneak Attack is worth 3.5 damage on average). Sadly, that still doesn't counter the main opponents of Rogues, since anything that's immune to Sneak Attacks is likely immune to Ability Damage/Drain.

greenknight
2007-02-05, 05:57 AM
TWF mainly works better as a way to apply Ability Damage/Drain than actual damage(Each die of Sneak Attack is worth 3.5 damage on average).

Ability damage certainly does help, especially when you're dealing with foes with high DR/HP. Still, the same basic theory applies: more attacks = more chance to produce an effect.


Sadly, that still doesn't counter the main opponents of Rogues, since anything that's immune to Sneak Attacks is likely immune to Ability Damage/Drain.

And that's exactly why high level Rogues (and other sneak attackers) aren't the all-powerful melee monsters some people make them out to be. Sure, their sneak attack is great against a lot of foes, but there's plenty of common foes (of all CRs) a sneak attack won't work against. But that's going off topic. The point remains that provided the sneak attack works at all, having more attacks per round (as provided by the TWF chain of feats) is a huge benefit to characters who rely on sneak attacks for damage. And that is one reason why TWF doesn't need to be fixed.