Dwarves, Ladders and light

[Mad Humanist]

What in Thor's name was that dwarf doing up that ladder in the first place? Was he harvesting lichen or something?

More generally how does dwarven agriculture work with no light? What do they make beer from? Mushrooms? Where do their crab-apples come from?

[Mighty]

They eat darkapples and underbread made from darkgrain. It all grows well from the underlight provided by the deepsun :smallsmile:

[hagnat]

They eat darkapples and underbread made from darkgrain. It all grows well from the underlight provided by the deepsun :smallsmile:

i demand facebook likes in comments so i can upvote your comment

[Mad Humanist]

They eat darkapples and underbread made from darkgrain. It all grows well from the underlight provided by the deepsun :smallsmile:

Dan. That reply is just sticking "deep" or "dark" in front of everything. And if there was a "deepsun" then Sergeant Mama would have said something different. Gah! Going to bed not happy.

[Mighty]

Dan. That reply is just sticking "deep" or "dark" in front of everything. And if there was a "deepsun" then Sergeant Mama would have said something different. Gah! Going to bed not happy.

I used 'under' a few times too for variety :smalltongue:

Edit: Not to mention the fact, that it was also a thinly veiled reference :) (as in, I wasn't just being rude :smallwink: )

[Keltest]

Just about every setting I know of has Dwarves cultivate fungi for their beer, sometimes for their diet, and oftentimes they'll have underground varieties of things like cows for, well, what we use cows for.

Knowing the Giant though, if it comes up it will be played to be as exotic yet as (relatively) reasonable as he can possibly make it.

[NerdyKris]

In D&D terms, I think they focus on animals and lichen. But it's not unreasonable to believe that they'd have small farms either outside or underneath holes in the mountainside. When you can build tunnels and stairs inside the mountain, you can reach a lot of otherwise unreachable cliffs and mountaintops to claim for your own.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

What in Thor's name was that dwarf doing up that ladder in the first place? Was he harvesting lichen or something?

More generally how does dwarven agriculture work with no light? What do they make beer from? Mushrooms? Where do their crab-apples come from?

Climbing ladders is a popular hobby among dwarves, haven't you heard? :smalltongue:

More seriously, I imagine that the dwarves are not 100% underground or in the mountains, and have other places to grow food. If not, they most likely have a lot of fungi and other plants that don't use the Sun as food. For everything else, they have their Clerics cast Create Food and Water, although admittedly this doesn't create much food, and isn't very tasty.

[Chessecakeman]

If the ladder was made of wood it could have been Durkon's first tramatic experience with things of the tree variety.

[riaierb]

They eat darkapples and underbread made from darkgrain. It all grows well from the underlight provided by the deepsun :smallsmile:

underbread?

[SavageWombat]

They eat darkapples and underbread made from darkgrain. It all grows well from the underlight provided by the deepsun :smallsmile:

For those not in the know, this is not just a random joke but a reference to a strip in SSDT. And it's damn funny.

[Codex]

If the ladder was made of wood it could have been Durkon's first tramatic experience with things of the tree variety.
Once you've seen the true grain of horror, there's no going back.

[duboisjf]

Maybe they have no agriculture, getting most of their supply through trade.

Quite boring answer, sorry ...

[colanderman]

More generally how does dwarven agriculture work with no light? What do they make beer from? Mushrooms?

Plump helmets and cave wheat.

[Firemage]

Plump helmets and cave wheat.

I love, how our modern picture of dwarves comes either from Dwarf Fortress, like in this example, or Discworld, when the females also have beards.

Even in LotR: The Two Towers they made a reference to the discworldian image of dwarves!

Of course, originally the standard fantasy dwarves came from the LotR books, which itself borrowed from various myths and legends.

But today the defacto standard is either Dwarf Fortress or Discworld.

Anyhow, Dwarf Fortress agriculture just makes sense. Even if it's dubious if you can call beverages made from fungi really "beer" or the like. They'd probably have their own unique categories.

[ti'esar]

Even in LotR: The Two Towers they made a reference to the discworldian image of dwarves!

While I don't have a copy of RotK with me to check, I'm 95 percent that Tolkien mentioned dwarf women had beards in the appendices.

[kivzirrum]

Yeah, Tolkien definitely mentioned the dwarf women having beards. I don't remember if it was in the appendices or some of his notes or what, but that image is indeed from the books.

In regards to the topic, I imagine fungus comes into play a lot. Mushrooms are delicious--I'm jealous of the dwarves!

[Emperordaniel]

While I don't have a copy of RotK with me to check, I'm 95 percent that Tolkien mentioned dwarf women had beards in the appendices.

Technically, the appendices don't mention beards, specifically, but it does say (in Appendix A, Section III Durin's Folk) that "...they are in voice and appearance, and in garb... ...so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart..." which I suppose could be extrapolated into the assumption that the women are just as heavily-bearded as the men.

[davidbofinger]

Dwarves live in dungeons. They eat wandering monsters.

[SaintRidley]

What in Thor's name was that dwarf doing up that ladder in the first place? Was he harvesting lichen or something?

He was engaging in a ritual show of power over the arboreal menace. See, vanquished trees are chopped up and turned into ladders. Dwarves who have defeated trees in single combat are given these ladders as trophies and tokens of their prowess, and on the anniversary of their battles they take the ladders outside to the surface and climb upon them. This displays to all the onlooking trees the dominance of dwarf over tree, and that the arboreal hordes will one day be crushed under heel in much the same way.

[Benthesquid]

I generally assume that dwarves primarily eat fungi and lichen, which themselves probably draw energy and nutrients from geothermal vents.

Of course, there are other, equally valid options. Steppe farming dwarves. Raider dwarves who occasionally sweep down from the mountains to steal the livestock and crops of the lowland dwelling halflings. Trader dwarves who are dependent on the flow of gold and iron out of the mountains and food in (how I often play Dwarf Fortress). Dwarven Lamas who have transcended the need for physical nourishment.

[The Pilgrim]

Call me crazy but... maybe, they trade part of those items they craft from the mineral they dig, in exchange for wheat and other surface-grown products.

[SavageWombat]

Call me crazy but... maybe, they trade part of those items they craft from the mineral they dig, in exchange for wheat and other surface-grown products.

Nobody trades wheat for ore, because you need both at the same time. Now, they could trade wood or clay for wheat, as long as they don't want to build roads.

[Keltest]

Nobody trades wheat for ore, because you need both at the same time. Now, they could trade wood or clay for wheat, as long as they don't want to build roads.

you seem to be assuming that both sides are trading their entire supply. Trade only involves surplus materials (ie those not needed by the party producing them) in trade for what they do need.

[Bavarian itP]

Nobody trades wheat for ore, because you need both at the same time. Now, they could trade wood or clay for wheat, as long as they don't want to build roads.

You ... don't seem to grasp the concept of trade ...

[m4th]

You ... don't seem to grasp the concept of trade ...

Google Image Search: settlers of catan building overview


This thread has gone pretty far off topic. I assume that baby Durkon, along with other baby dwarves, is kept indoors for his infancy and taken outside when he is old enough, according to dwarven tradition/safety considerations/the light of the sun won't drive his childish mind into insanity a la Dwarf Fortress's "Cave Madness."

Dwarves as a culture are not sun-shunners, but their children are. Just like we don't tell children about sex.

[SaintRidley]

Dwarves as a culture are not sun-shunners, but their children are. Just like we don't tell children about sex.

Who are you including in 'we'?

[DeliaP]

Nobody trades wheat for ore, because you need both at the same time. Now, they could trade wood or clay for wheat, as long as they don't want to build roads.


You ... don't seem to grasp the concept of trade ...

Sure we do: if you don't trade the robber will take half your surplus, right?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

You ... don't seem to grasp the concept of trade ...

It's a joke about Settlers of Catan. Let the thread derailment commence!

[brionl]

Nobody trades wheat for ore, because you need both at the same time. Now, they could trade wood or clay for wheat, as long as they don't want to build roads.

I've got Wood for Sheep. Anybody? Wood for Sheep?

[Everyl]

I've got Wood for Sheep. Anybody? Wood for Sheep?

I think it's generally considered impolite to talk about that in public.

And, on topic, ever since it occurred to me to wonder how dwarves got food, I've assumed it was mostly from farming fungi and lichens around geothermal heat sources. There are plenty of other options, though - since they control the mountains, they likely have access to a fair amount of high-altitude land that would be considered marginal for most agricultural purposes. Potatoes were originally cultivated in that kind of territory, and could quite conceivably be a staple food for dwarves. Just because their homes are underground doesn't mean they don't have fields outside the caves in places that are difficult for their enemies to reach.

[Bavarian itP]

Wow, Settlers of Catan, Dwarf Fortress ... this thread is pretty crowded with bad games.

Not to mention D&D :smallbiggrin:

[DeliaP]

On topic (huh, that feels weird!) maybe there are underground lakes populated by cave fish and the like, and dwarves eat fish?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

On topic (huh, that feels weird!) maybe there are underground lakes populated by cave fish and the like, and dwarves eat fish?

Also, if we hypothesize that there are underground lakes (feed by some underground source), there could also be a whole ecosystem based of these lakes, where fish eat smaller things such as plants and protists, and larger animals eat the fish (or some herbivores eating the plants as well).

[pikeamus]

Wow, Settlers of Catan, Dwarf Fortress ... this thread is pretty crowded with bad games.

Not to mention D&D :smallbiggrin:

...bad games?

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Sure we do: if you don't trade the robber will take half your surplus, right?



Or the raider boat is a couple of spaces away and you need the wheat to wake your knight up so you defend your city (guess he likes toast for breakfast), rather than keeping the rock to build a new city that will just get kicked over next time they come visiting, or you've got the wheat port or the merchant, and want to further trade the wheat for paper to build an aqueduct and thus get something every turn. :smallwink:



But yes, trade with other settlements - not just ore and/or refined metal ingots, but also manufactured goods (from weapons and armour through sculptures, tools like ploughs, and depending on your tech level, machinery and fine work items like printing type, all the way down to mundane items like hinges and brackets) for cloth, meat, crops and so on.

Under-realm races, like the Drow, might have to scavenge foodstuffs because they may not be trusted enough for others to trade with them, or the nobility might take all the imported goods for themselves, or they may be separated off from such resources by enemies and thus unable to get them themselves, or it could be an effective warzone that no one wants to go into, or they may simply view external goods as undesirable or illegal.

[Keltest]

Or the raider boat is a couple of spaces away and you need the wheat to wake your knight up so you defend your city (guess he likes toast for breakfast), rather than keeping the rock to build a new city that will just get kicked over next time they come visiting, or you've got the wheat port or the merchant, and want to further trade the wheat for paper to build an aqueduct and thus get something every turn. :smallwink:



But yes, trade with other settlements - not just ore and/or refined metal ingots, but also manufactured goods (from weapons and armour through sculptures, tools like ploughs, and depending on your tech level, machinery and fine work items like printing type, all the way down to mundane items like hinges and brackets) for cloth, meat, crops and so on.

Under-realm races, like the Drow, might have to scavenge foodstuffs because they may not be trusted enough for others to trade with them, or the nobility might take all the imported goods for themselves, or they may be separated off from such resources by enemies and thus unable to get them themselves, or it could be an effective warzone that no one wants to go into, or they may simply view external goods as undesirable or illegal.

typically I believe that underdark (im a forgotten realms fan) races can and do trade with the surface in controlled environments away from their cities. typically it is run by merchants who worship the words "Mutual benefit" to keep it going smoothly.

[Mono Vertigo]

...bad games?

I assume the word Bavarian was looking for is "evil".
See, it immediately works much better.

[Ionathus]

typically I believe that underdark (im a forgotten realms fan) races can and do trade with the surface in controlled environments away from their cities. typically it is run by merchants who worship the words "Mutual benefit" to keep it going smoothly.

I've always been confused by that. I have practically no D&D experience (my only relatable thing is Baldur's Gate games), but the concept of living underground, even though it may be a cool setting for battles and adventure, is quite simply a long shot at best. Drow cities may be feasible due to civilization's ability to trade, but even then it would become markedly more difficult to support the larger and further away from the surface they went. And maybe small monsters could do it, but it just doesn't seem feasible that monsters who need a whole load of calories - trolls, umber hulks, beholders, dragons - would be able to live in large, independent groups off of lichen-munching critters.

But if we're going to get that analytical about it, we might as well ask what the trolls are doing down on the 24th level of a dungeon, standing alone doing nothing in a locked room until an adventurer picks the lock and comes in to slay them. :smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

I've always been confused by that. I have practically no D&D experience (my only relatable thing is Baldur's Gate games), but the concept of living underground, even though it may be a cool setting for battles and adventure, is quite simply a long shot at best. Drow cities may be feasible due to civilization's ability to trade, but even then it would become markedly more difficult to support the larger and further away from the surface they went. And maybe small monsters could do it, but it just doesn't seem feasible that monsters who need a whole load of calories - trolls, umber hulks, beholders, dragons - would be able to live in large, independent groups off of lichen-munching critters.

But if we're going to get that analytical about it, we might as well ask what the trolls are doing down on the 24th level of a dungeon, standing alone doing nothing in a locked room until an adventurer picks the lock and comes in to slay them. :smallbiggrin:

a wizard did it.

In forgotten realms at least, the underdark has special magical... fungi I think, or maybe rock formations, that basically work in place of food for many plants. Clean water isn't impossible to get, and where there are plants and water, animals like cattle can live.

[King of Nowhere]

well, life must take energy somewhere to start with, and if the sun is not available as primary source then it has to have something else. life in caves is sustained by what little organic matter fall into the cave, and has evolved to be very slow and consume very little. olms can live over ten years without food, and other cave dwelling animals are similar in that regard. so iif the ecosystem is like our own, i'd exclude fungi. they don't need the sun, but they eat organic matter, and there's not enough of that in a cave to sustain farming for the dwarven population. so if the dwarves eat fungi they still have to bring into the caves rotting trees to feed the fungi (not completely unlikely, though).
another option is that they simply farm the surface.
or they trade their metals for food (what what they do when the metals run out?)

A last option I see no one mention before, is that there are thaumivors plants that feed not on the sunlight, but on the background natural magical field. those would grow in a cave pretty well, and could provide the staple of dwarf nutrition. I used the "background magical field" as an explanation for a wide amount of phenomena back in the day I was worldbuilding, from "why random monsters seeem to pop up all the time?" (just like ultraviolet radiation from the sun may give you cancer, thaumic radiation may turn normal animals into magical aberrations) to "why do dragons collect hoards anyway?" (gold, gems, and magic items concentrate the thaumic radiation like a magnifying glass would concentrate the sunlight. and elder dragons need lots of magic to perform their tricks. It would be like putting mirrors around a plant to give it more light). And including "how can plants grow in caves to sustain the dwarves?" (those plants feed not on the sun but on magic field).

And I agree with ionatus, the underdark is pretty unlikely a setting if you don't postulate something like that.

[DeliaP]

Also, if we hypothesize that there are underground lakes (feed by some underground source), there could also be a whole ecosystem based of these lakes, where fish eat smaller things such as plants and protists, and larger animals eat the fish (or some herbivores eating the plants as well).



But yes, trade with other settlements - not just ore and/or refined metal ingots, but also manufactured goods (from weapons and armour through sculptures, tools like ploughs, and depending on your tech level, machinery and fine work items like printing type, all the way down to mundane items like hinges and brackets) for cloth, meat, crops and so on.

Under-realm races, like the Drow, might have to scavenge foodstuffs because they may not be trusted enough for others to trade with them, or the nobility might take all the imported goods for themselves, or they may be separated off from such resources by enemies and thus unable to get them themselves, or it could be an effective warzone that no one wants to go into, or they may simply view external goods as undesirable or illegal.


I've always been confused by that. I have practically no D&D experience (my only relatable thing is Baldur's Gate games), but the concept of living underground, even though it may be a cool setting for battles and adventure, is quite simply a long shot at best. Drow cities may be feasible due to civilization's ability to trade, but even then it would become markedly more difficult to support the larger and further away from the surface they went. And maybe small monsters could do it, but it just doesn't seem feasible that monsters who need a whole load of calories - trolls, umber hulks, beholders, dragons - would be able to live in large, independent groups off of lichen-munching critters.

OK, here's my observation: pretty much the entire ecosystem of planet earth is built on a pyramid, at the base of which is essentially sunlight being converted via photosynthesis and assorted squidgy stuff than manages to convert geothermal energy, because those are basically the only outside sources of energy that are needed to maintain the far-from-thermodynamic-equilibrium conditions necessary for life. And all of the larger beasties are living at higher and narrower parts of of pyramid that involve munching on something lower on the pyramid. And it's kind of remarkable that the entire biomass of this planet manages to fit in that pyramid. What's even more remarkable is that certain isolated islands in the middle of oceans can actually support a pyramid that has quite complex animals!

OK, what's different for Underdark type ecosystems: well, no sunlight, obviously. But better access to geothermal energy. Now it may be that it seems implausible that assorted squidgy stuff could be a large enough base for that pyramid. But, of course, it's a world in which there's magic, so now we have options like: maybe there's a fundamental difference in how the world works down at the quantum chemistry level, and this change means geothermal energy conversion is much more viable a basis for life. So much more squidgy stuff to create a larger base of the pyramid, icky squiddly slimy plants and stuff that live of off the squidgy stuff, plus the underdark water systems are connected to the outsider oceans, so there's also access to fish and stuff.

Finally as an aside: I'm not actually sure how dragons could exist, as a viable species, even as surface dwellers at the top of the pyramid. I'm not talking about a single dragon here and there: I mean a large enough number to have a diverse gene pool and not be at permanent risk of extinction. That's a lot of dragons!

(Edit: Oh, and plus what King of Nowhere posted while I was writing this post! :smallsmile:)

[Hecuba]

I've always been confused by that. I have practically no D&D experience (my only relatable thing is Baldur's Gate games), but the concept of living underground, even though it may be a cool setting for battles and adventure, is quite simply a long shot at best. Drow cities may be feasible due to civilization's ability to trade, but even then it would become markedly more difficult to support the larger and further away from the surface they went. And maybe small monsters could do it, but it just doesn't seem feasible that monsters who need a whole load of calories - trolls, umber hulks, beholders, dragons - would be able to live in large, independent groups off of lichen-munching critters.

For Faerun (the setting where the Underdark is the biggest thing), the Underdark is permeated by a natural energy called faerzress. Plants (and presumably microbes) gain energy from it rather than light, effectively replacing photosynthesis with fazress-synthesis.

[Mad Humanist]

I wondered if you could make beer from moss. Apparently people who want to grow moss use beer. http://gardensinspired.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/moss-recipes-how-to-grow-moss.html So moss may be more seen as a competing race than a food source.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

OK, here's my observation: pretty much the entire ecosystem of planet earth is built on a pyramid, at the base of which is essentially sunlight being converted via photosynthesis and assorted squidgy stuff than manages to convert geothermal energy, because those are basically the only outside sources of energy that are needed to maintain the far-from-thermodynamic-equilibrium conditions necessary for life. And all of the larger beasties are living at higher and narrower parts of of pyramid that involve munching on something lower on the pyramid. And it's kind of remarkable that the entire biomass of this planet manages to fit in that pyramid. What's even more remarkable is that certain isolated islands in the middle of oceans can actually support a pyramid that has quite complex animals!



OK, what's different for Underdark type ecosystems: well, no sunlight, obviously. But better access to geothermal energy. Now it may be that it seems implausible that assorted squidgy stuff could be a large enough base for that pyramid. But, of course, it's a world in which there's magic, so now we have options like: maybe there's a fundamental difference in how the world works down at the quantum chemistry level, and this change means geothermal energy conversion is much more viable a basis for life. So much more squidgy stuff to create a larger base of the pyramid, icky squiddly slimy plants and stuff that live of off the squidgy stuff, plus the underdark water systems are connected to the outsider oceans, so there's also access to fish and stuff.



Finally as an aside: I'm not actually sure how dragons could exist, as a viable species, even as surface dwellers at the top of the pyramid. I'm not talking about a single dragon here and there: I mean a large enough number to have a diverse gene pool and not be at permanent risk of extinction. That's a lot of dragons!




Ok, some ideas there.

Firstly, plants appear to be green because they reflect green light wavelengths and absorb all others - if you have a different range of wavelengths available - say, the red end coming from molten rock, then you could theoretically have a different form of chlorophyll that say, absorbs red-yellow, and reflects in the infra-red. Then it really comes down to the space available to grow the crops in underground caverns.

Geothermal energy is certainly another possibility, I'm thinking of deep ocean smokestacks here - you'd probably get algae, maybe simple ferns, but with them, you could certainly have some crop plants.

And if you throw magic in, then you could potentially have normal surface crops being grown below ground with permanent light spells.

But another thing to consider is the psychology of the race in question - the nobility and rulers may desire to be as deep as possible, so food etc would be transported down to them.

The real issue is refreshing the air down below so that everyone can breathe - that may be plants, or magic, or slave labour running massive pumping stations blowing fresh air down to the lower levels, and the higher levels get the stale air on it's way out.

As for Dragons and their survival, ignoring magic, it could simply be the case that they really don't breed that often - if they don't mature for 200-300 years, then there probably wouldn't be the generations around to hit problems with inbreeding.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

.
As for Dragons and their survival, ignoring magic, it could simply be the case that they really don't breed that often - if they don't mature for 200-300 years, then there probably wouldn't be the generations around to hit problems with inbreeding.
Vaarsuvius does mention "your kind's low rate of reproduction" when talking about the relative number of black dragons. So, if Vaarsuvius's numbers are correct, this would mean there are at least 240 black dragons, and if there are equal dragons for all races, we would end up with far over 2,400 dragons. So, while there is quite a lot of them, compared to other races, they number very few.

[skim172]

There seems to be a common perception running through this thread that geothermal vents can readily support a vast web of life. In reality, they're really quite inhospitable. The chemicals, the extreme heat - not at all conducive to life. While we have, in recent decades, discovered bacteria that can synthesize energy from the vents without the aid of sunlight, and some species that can feed on them, these ecosystems are relatively small - certainly not enough to support the rise of advanced dwarven civilization.

I would reject that explanation - geothermal energy is no replacement for the sun.

But, there is an alternative. And ... it's not pretty.

Believe it or not, cave ecosystems on Earth are still solar-dependent. Despite the fact that beyond the entrances, photosynthesis is still impossible, all cave life still ultimately relies on it. (Mosses and lichens, BTW, are photosynthesizers, too, and also need sunlight. So they won't be supporting dwarven-dom. )

So what does provide the energy? Decomposition. Organic material on the cave floor is broken down by bacteria, fungi, and other decomposers, forming the base of the cave food chain. The bacteria feeds the millipede that feeds the spider that feeds the salamander. And if dwarf society is to survive, they'll be roasting those salamanders and harvesting that fungi.

But where does that "organic material" come from? It could be stuff washed in by underground streams, or floods. But it's often brought in by animals that live in the caves, but feed outside. Like ... bats. Bats eat a lot. And then they all come home to roost. And then ... they deposit organic material.

In a word: guano. :smalleek:

Yes, guano is a huge source of energy for cave life. There are caves where the inches-thick layers of guano teems with a rich cornucopia of life, feeding all manner of organisms. The guano literally is writhing with all manner of creepy-crawlers swimming through the muck. Each drip of guano dropping from the cave ceiling is like a huge steaming ray of sunshine for all those cave creatures. And that is the foundation of the cave ecosystem.


So, your answer - just how do the dwarves support life down there in the deep darkness? :smallconfused:

Well ... it probably doesn't smell all that good down there. :smallyuk:


And BTW, those beards? :durkon:

Not facial hair. Nope, it's a big fat colony of fuzzy fungus, growing right on the dwarves' face.
Nutritious, delicious fungi, right next to your mouth. A convenient, mobile, personal supply of food. Why do you think beards are so important to dwarves? It's not about looks.

[Cracklord]

Ah, you never get tired of it.

OK, the first thing you have to understand is that no ecosystem on our planet is a closed system. It requires constant energy inputs to maintain an open system, because a closed system only degrades over time, thanks to a little something we like to call entropy.

Now, in a world where you can bring matter and energy into existence from nowhere obviously doesn't have entropy, indeed it could be argued that this is the primary function of magic. But regardless, not going into the philosophical ramifications of magic, much less what it does to our working physics models, let's assume that despite the empirical existence of pantheons of Gods, Demons and Angels and infinite places that somehow the underlying rules resemble those on our world. It's a pretty bloody-minded, farcical position to take, but if it makes you happy, I don't judge (well, I try not to).

Now in the Underdark, if there is to be Life, let alone civilization, there has to be some way of getting energy into the system. For the surface worlders, that’s not even a problem: the Sun shines energy down on the surface all day. Assuming that the sun is a giant ball of burning gas, rather then (for example) the fiery chariot of a god, then photo-synthesis takes care of the rest.

But for those who live beneath the world - sewers, the ocean floor, the mountain kingdoms of the dwarves, the classic dungeon complex or yes, the Underdark, we have to assume that there is some sort of source of energy in the D&D world that just doesn’t exist in ours. Now where we are standing, we don’t see lush forests in marine trenches because the energy inputs just aren’t there. But in D&D neither the ocean floor not the underdark is a desert – they are vibrant ecologies capable of supporting megafauna. Here’s why:

As some other posters pointed out before me, it is a well known fact that mushrooms are a fungus and not a plant and they don’t need sunlight to grow. However, as has also come to light, what they do need, however, is a source of chemical energy. Now there are plenty of places to find that, such as dead bodies or excrement or whatever, sure, but it still has to come from somewhere. When fungus grabs some organic material and converts it into more fungus, that’s still an inefficient process. You have less energy worth of fungus than you had energy worth of whatever it was that the fungus was eating. Of course, edible fungus is quite able to consume things that are inedible (like woodchips) or even poisonous (like waste) and turn it into something you can eat. It just won’t make something out of nothing. So mushrooms are an excuse for why Underdark dwellers have something to eat if and only if there is some other way that energy is coming into the system. It could be anything really, just as the trees will turn useless sunlight into tasty apples, the fungus will turn useless chemical waste into (presumably) delicious mushrooms. But while that gives us something to eat, it doesn't explain where the energy comes from.

Now, the sensible thing to do is assume things work differently in that world. Just as you can be absolutely fine having taken an arbitrarily high amount of damage as long as you have one hit point remaining, then take another scratch and fall unconscious, it's possible that in the DnD world everything is 100% efficient. If our body systems continue to function unimpaired until they fail completely, perhaps it's indicative of more then bizarre biology. If we take the position that entropy doesn't exist, then a closed system is capable of repeating itself ad infinitum, presuming no outside influence. Normally, I'd go with something like that. DnD classic is all about opposing forces, good and evil, order and chaos, positive and negative energy, and opposing elementals. Why not creation and destruction as a kind of cosmic imperative? But if that doesn't suit you, there are alternatives.

First up, there is subduction. The world above is filled with living things, and even in the world of fantasy the overwhelming majority of living things die. And when living things die, they leave behind a body that other living things can eat. Now obviously much of this actually does get eaten, but other bodies end up sinking into the land. In our world, the organic material sucked into the ground eventually becomes fossil fuels, but in DnD there’s actually stuff down there that will eat it. Now obviously this is a relatively minor input into the dungeon ecosystem, but depending on the size of the surface world relative to the Underdark there is a certain level of justification to be found.

Or, a wizard could do it. In a multiverse with an infinite plane of fire sitting right next door to the hot property, which usefully doesn't follow the same thermodynamic constraints as Prime Material Plane, an easy solution is found just like that. A portal to the plane of Fire simply heaps energy into whatever cavern it happens to be in, which is like having a little sun right in your closet. Plants and algae can use that energy input to grow. And then passing ooze monsters can eat those plants, and civilizations can eat the ooze monsters. The great circle of life. And as long as those portals stay open, energy can keep entering the system.

Or we can cut out the middle man. Magical locations exist all over the place in the DnD world. That's where you get your enchanted woods, and floating castles made of pearl, and strange women lying in ponds distributing swords, or whatever. But the world isn’t flat (well, if I'm running it there is a good chance it is, but that's just me), and actually there’s a lot more volume of the planet that’s under the ground than there is on the surface. And so, most of these are underground somewhere. Now given that a significant amount of the total energy inputs in the system are underground to the exclusion of being above ground, you can give The underdark irregularly spaced Nausica-style gardens down there that are supported by magic upwelling. And given that they are magical in nature, each of these locations is massively more productive than a field or forest above ground of similar size, and the immutable fact that the surrounding territory is lifeless barren stone causes fights over these locations to be extremely brutal.

So could it be? Sure thing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It could tie into why Dwarven cultures traditionally don't have mages: every dwarf that develops magical abilities is tied in making life underground possible, by continuously casting sunlight spells, refreshing the soil as it gets depleted, etc. It also explains why dwarfs distrust races that have plentiful mages: as they see it, those bastards are running around with the capability to feed millions, and instead are using it to blow up things, the bastards.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

It could tie into why Dwarven cultures traditionally don't have mages: every dwarf that develops magical abilities is tied in making life underground possible, by continuously casting sunlight spells, refreshing the soil as it gets depleted, etc. It also explains why dwarfs distrust races that have plentiful mages: as they see it, those bastards are running around with the capability to feed millions, and instead are using it to blow up things, the bastards.

Grey Wolf

But clerics can create light AND food, and they aren't chained to the caves running the underfarms.

[Cracklord]

I've never really paid much attention to the idea that dwarves don't have wizards. While I'm aware that in some previous editions of D&D the Dwarven people were not allowed to use Arcane Magic because Gimli wasn’t a spellcaster (the actual reasoning, I’m not even making that up), I prefer to refer to the Dwarven magicians in many source legends (the Ring Saga for one), and even the Dwarven Magic from the Lord of the Rings (Thorin demonstrated magic in one of the first chapters of the Hobbit, and Balin could talk to Ravens).

Dwarves should be slinging spells, scribing runes, and crafting magic items in their mountain halls as much as drinking beer and swinging axes, in the same way that orcs should be a deeply spiritual people when they are not forming hordes and rampaging across the countryside to raid and pillage and plunder. Otherwise your races become too one dimensional, and, dare I say it, boring.

[skim172]

But clerics can create light AND food, and they aren't chained to the caves running the underfarms.

Clerics create light and food? Clerics create life itself. Nothing can grow in the dark zones without light - no one can be fed.

I suggested before that the dwarven civilization is built atop a mountain of guano, but maybe, following your idea, clerics and other magic are the source of life. The entire underground ecosystem is centered on the magic-users who can harness magical energy. Without them, all would perish.

So - another picture of dwarven civilization emerges. Because with the whole Underdark dependent on them for life itself, the clerics have power beyond imagination. Nothing can survive without them. They're not just clerics - they are the rulers of all dwarven-dom. They are gods. The temple clerics are not just clergy - they are the gatekeepers of life's very energy itself.

When they could switch off life for hundreds, or thousands, at a whim - what if they failed? What if they erred? And what if they corrupted? What if their great power gave way to great greed? Wars, famines, mass killings, disease, or - the worst fate of all - utter darkness, as an entire region of the underground loses their light and are plunged into the abyss.

Dwarves are religious - well, of course they are! The people must live in utter fear of those great temples and the magic-users within. This is no religion of faith - this is a religion of fear, of terror, of begging for your survival! Dwarves are warlike - their entire history is nothing but death and struggle!

Dwarves have no mages? They did once. Before the clerics wiped them all out. A challenge to their power - unacceptable. The mages resisted - they had magic. But the clerics had magic - and the power and resources of the temples at their disposal. The mages were slaughtered. And even now, all dwarven children who show arcane ability are expunged by the clerics.


But one day ... one day, there'll come a time, when we'll overthrow those temple-keepers. We'll cast down those despots and free all dwarf-kind. And we'll turn our backs on Thor, Odin, and the others, who failed to protect their people as long as their supplicants claimed their banner.

And then ... after the revolution ... we chain the clerics to the underfarms. We can't survive without them? Fine - that doesn't mean we'll worship them. We just need to harness them. Extract their powers from them.

Underfarms? Please. We're talking powerplants. Massive arrays of energy-harvesting pods, where each cleric will have their magic extracted and distributed for all dwarf-kind and all the Underdark to use, in peace and harmony. The once-masters will be nothing more ... than a battery.

And then maybe a giant virtual reality computer simulation, to keep them all occupied. Although that might be too much of a hassle.

[Vinyadan]

Plump helmets and cave wheat.

I had read "plump helmets and cave sweat". Like, between the head and the helmet of a dwarf a moist microclima is created, where agriculture is possible.

Oh, yea. Hygiene: who needs it?

[Cracklord]

But one day ... one day, there'll come a time, when we'll overthrow those temple-keepers. We'll cast down those despots and free all dwarf-kind. And we'll turn our backs on Thor, Odin, and the others, who failed to protect their people as long as their supplicants claimed their banner.

I'd be honoured to create a setting with you some day.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But clerics can create light AND food, and they aren't chained to the caves running the underfarms.

Yes, but clerics only have powers because their gods gave them, and there are strings attached. Their gods don't grant miraculous powers just so they can stay home and grow rutabagas. They must convert the heathens, and lead prayers and perform marriages and funerals.

GW

[Keltest]

Yes, but clerics only have powers because their gods gave them, and there are strings attached. Their gods don't grant miraculous powers just so they can stay home and grow rutabagas. They must convert the heathens, and lead prayers and perform marriages and funerals.

GW

and they cant do that at home? More importantly, they can do that anywhere else?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

and they cant do that at home? More importantly, they can do that anywhere else?

I fail to see where they perform marriages has any impact on the argument "they are too busy doing their god's work to grow food".

GW

[Keltest]

I fail to see where they perform marriages has any impact on the argument "they are too busy doing their god's work to grow food".

GW

oh, so THAT was your argument. Well then. Dead people cant get married. Besides, only the top priests would be heading any seriously time consuming ceremonies regularly.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

only the top priests would be heading any seriously time consuming ceremonies regularly.

This is so removed from actual reality of priestly jobs that I'll just agree to disagree with you.

GW

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Clerics create light and food? Clerics create life itself. Nothing can grow in the dark zones without light - no one can be fed.

I suggested before that the dwarven civilization is built atop a mountain of guano, but maybe, following your idea, clerics and other magic are the source of life. The entire underground ecosystem is centered on the magic-users who can harness magical energy. Without them, all would perish.

So - another picture of dwarven civilization emerges. Because with the whole Underdark dependent on them for life itself, the clerics have power beyond imagination. Nothing can survive without them. They're not just clerics - they are the rulers of all dwarven-dom. They are gods. The temple clerics are not just clergy - they are the gatekeepers of life's very energy itself.

When they could switch off life for hundreds, or thousands, at a whim - what if they failed? What if they erred? And what if they corrupted? What if their great power gave way to great greed? Wars, famines, mass killings, disease, or - the worst fate of all - utter darkness, as an entire region of the underground loses their light and are plunged into the abyss.

Dwarves are religious - well, of course they are! The people must live in utter fear of those great temples and the magic-users within. This is no religion of faith - this is a religion of fear, of terror, of begging for your survival! Dwarves are warlike - their entire history is nothing but death and struggle!

Dwarves have no mages? They did once. Before the clerics wiped them all out. A challenge to their power - unacceptable. The mages resisted - they had magic. But the clerics had magic - and the power and resources of the temples at their disposal. The mages were slaughtered. And even now, all dwarven children who show arcane ability are expunged by the clerics.


But one day ... one day, there'll come a time, when we'll overthrow those temple-keepers. We'll cast down those despots and free all dwarf-kind. And we'll turn our backs on Thor, Odin, and the others, who failed to protect their people as long as their supplicants claimed their banner.

And then ... after the revolution ... we chain the clerics to the underfarms. We can't survive without them? Fine - that doesn't mean we'll worship them. We just need to harness them. Extract their powers from them.

Underfarms? Please. We're talking powerplants. Massive arrays of energy-harvesting pods, where each cleric will have their magic extracted and distributed for all dwarf-kind and all the Underdark to use, in peace and harmony. The once-masters will be nothing more ... than a battery.

And then maybe a giant virtual reality computer simulation, to keep them all occupied. Although that might be too much of a hassle.

This is brilliant. Simply brilliant. And perhaps painting a darker sense of Dwarven religion than what we have seen...

[Keltest]

This is so removed from actual reality of priestly jobs that I'll just agree to disagree with you.

GW

youre arguing reality in a discussion on whether or not clerics would be able to help sustain life underground using magic?

[King of Nowhere]

Clerics create light and food? Clerics create life itself. Nothing can grow in the dark zones without light - no one can be fed.

I suggested before that the dwarven civilization is built atop a mountain of guano, but maybe, following your idea, clerics and other magic are the source of life. The entire underground ecosystem is centered on the magic-users who can harness magical energy. Without them, all would perish.

So - another picture of dwarven civilization emerges. Because with the whole Underdark dependent on them for life itself, the clerics have power beyond imagination. Nothing can survive without them. They're not just clerics - they are the rulers of all dwarven-dom. They are gods. The temple clerics are not just clergy - they are the gatekeepers of life's very energy itself.

When they could switch off life for hundreds, or thousands, at a whim - what if they failed? What if they erred? And what if they corrupted? What if their great power gave way to great greed? Wars, famines, mass killings, disease, or - the worst fate of all - utter darkness, as an entire region of the underground loses their light and are plunged into the abyss.

Dwarves are religious - well, of course they are! The people must live in utter fear of those great temples and the magic-users within. This is no religion of faith - this is a religion of fear, of terror, of begging for your survival! Dwarves are warlike - their entire history is nothing but death and struggle!

Dwarves have no mages? They did once. Before the clerics wiped them all out. A challenge to their power - unacceptable. The mages resisted - they had magic. But the clerics had magic - and the power and resources of the temples at their disposal. The mages were slaughtered. And even now, all dwarven children who show arcane ability are expunged by the clerics.


But one day ... one day, there'll come a time, when we'll overthrow those temple-keepers. We'll cast down those despots and free all dwarf-kind. And we'll turn our backs on Thor, Odin, and the others, who failed to protect their people as long as their supplicants claimed their banner.

And then ... after the revolution ... we chain the clerics to the underfarms. We can't survive without them? Fine - that doesn't mean we'll worship them. We just need to harness them. Extract their powers from them.

Underfarms? Please. We're talking powerplants. Massive arrays of energy-harvesting pods, where each cleric will have their magic extracted and distributed for all dwarf-kind and all the Underdark to use, in peace and harmony. The once-masters will be nothing more ... than a battery.

And then maybe a giant virtual reality computer simulation, to keep them all occupied. Although that might be too much of a hassle.

there's a nice piece of worldbuilding here.
But, if one wanted to escape the tiranny of those clerics, wouldn't it be much simpler to just live on the surface?
No, I'm not claiming this is an inconsistency. culture, tradition and superstition have kept many people from doing the sensible thing for generations. I just can't help but laugh at the idea of all those dwarves fighting to live underground when they could just go out.

[Keltest]

there's a nice piece of worldbuilding here.
But, if one wanted to escape the tiranny of those clerics, wouldn't it be much simpler to just live on the surface?
No, I'm not claiming this is an inconsistency. culture, tradition and superstition have kept many people from doing the sensible thing for generations. I just can't help but laugh at the idea of all those dwarves fighting to live underground when they could just go out.

Trees live outside.

[CRtwenty]

Just addressing the original poster's question here, since things seem to have gotten a little silly.

Most likely there are groups of Dwarves who live on the surface in the Dwarven lands and are able to farm the land and raise livestock which can be traded to their underground brethern in exchange for things like ore and gems. They're probably regarded as suicidal by most of the Dwarves due to living so close to trees, but hey. Somebody has to grow the wheat and barley. Maybe they're not Dwarves at all, but Gnomes? Gnomes tend to prefer hills and more "hobbit hole" type dwellings over stone caves anyway, and we've never gotten any hints that the Gnomes have their own homeland.

Also most D&D settings have an Underdark, which has an entirely seperate magic based ecosystem filled with various lichen and fungi, and larger animals that feed on them that can be bred as livestock (Forgotten Realms has Rothe, which are basically Underground Yaks that the locals use for fur, milk, and meat). The Dwarves could just do their agriculture underground.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

I've never really paid much attention to the idea that dwarves don't have wizards. While I'm aware that in some previous editions of D&D the Dwarven people were not allowed to use Arcane Magic because Gimli wasn’t a spellcaster (the actual reasoning, I’m not even making that up), I prefer to refer to the Dwarven magicians in many source legends (the Ring Saga for one), and even the Dwarven Magic from the Lord of the Rings (Thorin demonstrated magic in one of the first chapters of the Hobbit, and Balin could talk to Ravens).

Dwarves should be slinging spells, scribing runes, and crafting magic items in their mountain halls as much as drinking beer and swinging axes, in the same way that orcs should be a deeply spiritual people when they are not forming hordes and rampaging across the countryside to raid and pillage and plunder. Otherwise your races become too one dimensional, and, dare I say it, boring.
Agreed - even if we take a typical mine in a D&D world, how useful would spells like Dig, Rock to Mud, Stone to Flesh (making it easier to cut through) and Flesh to Stone (preserving people who are trapped until they can be dug out, then the spell is reversed), Disintegrate, Passwall, Telekenisis, Phase Door, Wall of Force, Wall of Stone, Stoneshape and so on be for rescuing people after a cave-in? What about, say, Flame Arrow to safely deal with flammable gases in a tunnel?

[Keltest]

Agreed - even if we take a typical mine in a D&D world, how useful would spells like Dig, Rock to Mud, Stone to Flesh (making it easier to cut through) and Flesh to Stone (preserving people who are trapped until they can be dug out, then the spell is reversed), Disintegrate, Passwall, Telekenisis, Phase Door, Wall of Force, Wall of Stone, Stoneshape and so on be for rescuing people after a cave-in? What about, say, Flame Arrow to safely deal with flammable gases in a tunnel?

well, flame arrow would suck because you would have just detonated a bomb in your mine. But maybe air and wind based magic could work.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

well, flame arrow would suck because you would have just detonated a bomb in your mine. But maybe air and wind based magic could work.
Not really, it would depend on the concentration of gases - plus the arrow would ignite the edges first, which would likely have a poor fuel/air ratio, rather than a potentially ideal one with a spark in the middle.

You're also igniting it from range, so you can potentially hunker down behind something or have a second mage put up a shield (say a Wall of Ice) against any fire rolling back towards you.

You could even treat it like a natural blasting charge (or maybe use Fireballs etc) - detonate the gases, then shore up the walls (using anything from pit props to castings of stone shape) and carry the debris out.

Or as you say, you could have air magic - maybe a reversal of Stinking Cloud/ Cloudkill or creative usages of Gust Of Wind.

[Keltest]

Not really, it would depend on the concentration of gases - plus the arrow would ignite the edges first, which would likely have a poor fuel/air ratio, rather than a potentially ideal one with a spark in the middle.

You're also igniting it from range, so you can potentially hunker down behind something or have a second mage put up a shield (say a Wall of Ice) against any fire rolling back towards you.

You could even treat it like a natural blasting charge (or maybe use Fireballs etc) - detonate the gases, then shore up the walls (using anything from pit props to castings of stone shape) and carry the debris out.

Or as you say, you could have air magic - maybe a reversal of Stinking Cloud/ Cloudkill or creative usages of Gust Of Wind.

You misunderstand. Go ask anyone who knows anything about explosives about what happens to an enclosed space's structural integrity when you set off a bomb inside.

[Finn Solomon]

I love it when people try to apply scientific rules and real world logic to fantasy settings like D&D.

It's the same folly I've seen on this board when it comes to magic items and effects and abilities. People arguing about whether a forcefield is air permeable or a teleportation spell takes into account the rotation of the planet or something of that nature.

It's like what Pratchett says. Fantasy has a life of its own. It runs on narrativium, not logic. Whatever makes the best story is how it's going to happen. Quibbling over minute details in an attempt to shoehorn in your real world knowledge of physics and math and chemistry can sometimes make for a better story, but it often ends in a game of one upsmanship.

Leave it be and enjoy the ride.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I love it when people try to apply scientific rules and real world logic to fantasy settings like D&D.

It's the same folly I've seen on this board when it comes to magic items and effects and abilities. People arguing about whether a forcefield is air permeable or a teleportation spell takes into account the rotation of the planet or something of that nature.

It's like what Pratchett says. Fantasy has a life of its own. It runs on narrativium, not logic. Whatever makes the best story is how it's going to happen. Quibbling over minute details in an attempt to shoehorn in your real world knowledge of physics and math and chemistry can sometimes make for a better story, but it often ends in a game of one upsmanship.

Leave it be and enjoy the ride.

Personally, I engage in these kinds of activities because I find them to be enjoyable thought exercises in trying to apply logic to a setting like this. People do things like this because they enjoy talking about how things like this work out in the real world, and how event and effects work in a non-plot run situation, because they have fun doing so, not because they want to shoehorn in their knowledge of our world. Calling it a folly perplexes me, because I see no folly.

[skim172]

there's a nice piece of worldbuilding here.
But, if one wanted to escape the tiranny of those clerics, wouldn't it be much simpler to just live on the surface?
No, I'm not claiming this is an inconsistency. culture, tradition and superstition have kept many people from doing the sensible thing for generations. I just can't help but laugh at the idea of all those dwarves fighting to live underground when they could just go out.

Of course - but they'd be exiled from dwarvenkind. A ruling tyranny would have to lock down access to the surface, in order to maintain their control - that's why every dwarf you meet in the surface world is invariably a cleric or a warrior, part of the ruling elite. Anyone else who manages to escape is exiled forever.

And I suppose if a sentient species did evolve underground, the surface would seem terrifying and strange to them. Agoraphobia is probably very common among dwarves.


I'd be honoured to create a setting with you some day.

I'm honored that you'd say so, but I did mostly just rip off The Matrix and replace robots with dwarves.

[Cracklord]

And the Matrix ripped off some scottish comic book author whose name escapes me. What's that got to do with anything? Originality isn't necessarily the best thing in a setting. What is awesome is how you took two very, very different ideas, and combined them in a way that create something entirely fresh and unexpected. It takes the dwarves from that unfortunate role they are so often shoe-horned into - self-referencing Tolkien rip-offs, and gives them a flavor like Jack Vance crossed with Ramsay Campbell's squabbling necromancers. So well done, that man.

As to this whole 'should we argue about how closely dungeons and dragons mimics our world', well if it makes people happy why not? It's just as irrelevant to bring Pratchett into the discussion as it is to argue over the finer points of photosynthesis. Pratchett is a storyteller, and a good one, but this doesn't give him some kind of authority over all fantasy. Fantasy was great long before he started making up arbitrary rules, and while it will notice and mourn his passing, it will be great when he is gone.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

As to this whole 'should we argue about how closely dungeons and dragons mimics our world', well if it makes people happy why not? It's just as irrelevant to bring Pratchett into the discussion as it is to argue over the finer points of photosynthesis. Pratchett is a storyteller, and a good one, but this doesn't give him some kind of authority over all fantasy. Fantasy was great long before he started making up arbitrary rules, and while it will notice and mourn his passing, it will be great when he is gone.
Yes, this 100%. :smallsmile:

[Storm_Of_Snow]

You misunderstand. Go ask anyone who knows anything about explosives about what happens to an enclosed space's structural integrity when you set off a bomb inside.
Depends on the nature of the enclosed space:

A building? Well, the walls are heading out over the landscape because there's a less dense environment on the other side for the pressure wave to push them into.

A tunnel inside several thousand tonnes of solid rock? The explosion's coming back up the tunnel towards you because, unless you're into the very largest explosions, the pressure wave is insufficient to move the rock outwards against the rock behind it. Loose material will be dislodged, and any flaws in the geology will cause rockfalls etc, but the majority of the structure will stay intact.

Remember, miners have been using explosives to dig tunnels for centuries - not always without problems admittedly.

Or you could have a look at the Summit Tunnel fire in Yorkshire in 1984 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summit_Tunnel_fire, or the damage and injuries caused by the July 7th tube bombings.

[b_jonas]

And then ... after the revolution ... we chain the clerics to the underfarms. We can't survive without them? Fine - that doesn't mean we'll worship them. We just need to harness them. Extract their powers from them.


That reminds me to that SMBC (Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal) comic strip where Superman is coerced to use his power as a cheap energy source that becomes the basis of economy (http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2305).

[b_jonas]

I have another proposal about how the caves could work.

In the webcomic The Inexplicable Adventures of Bob, we learn that the cave of the bigfeet ​is canonically lit by shafts of solid diamond leading to the surface, pumping light down like a giant fiber optic cable (http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20090228.html). (See also the first appearance of those diamonds (http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20090113.html) and a repeat of this statement later (http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20090711.html)).

Perhaps the caverns of the dwarves could be lit the same way, which is why bacteria and plants can grow down there.