What do Outsiders do All Day

[Grytorm]

I recently read Pathfinder Bestiary 4 which has one of the many fairly cool outsider races that Paizo has made. Here we have the Psycopomps. The outsiders that watch over the proper function of death. You have hunters of lost souls, skeletal guidance counselors, massive dragon judges and last tiny birds who are meant to function as familiars that have the jobs of recording important information on the lives of all mortals. I found them the most interesting because they are the first outsiders that I can actually imagine as individuals.

What I am wondering is how would you imagine other outsiders like Demons functioning socially. What kind of world do they live in, what drives their society forward as an actual society as opposed to a horrible or horribly nice place to be? What do cannon adventures have to say about this? Because I just don't know what to expect.

[BrokenChord]

I dunno much about Pathfinder, but I like thinking about what Outsiders spend their time doing.

I will have a few things to say myself when I've more free time to post, but I have to go in a minute, so I'll direct you to an expert real quick...

*clears throat*

Afroakuma! I call thee forth! Awaken now from thine eternal slumber to grant dark knowledge to humble mortals yet again! Breath and let know! Also, remember to brush your teeth before breakfast.

[Jack_Simth]

I recently read Pathfinder Bestiary 4 which has one of the many fairly cool outsider races that Paizo has made. Here we have the Psycopomps. The outsiders that watch over the proper function of death. You have hunters of lost souls, skeletal guidance counselors, massive dragon judges and last tiny birds who are meant to function as familiars that have the jobs of recording important information on the lives of all mortals. I found them the most interesting because they are the first outsiders that I can actually imagine as individuals.

What I am wondering is how would you imagine other outsiders like Demons functioning socially. What kind of world do they live in, what drives their society forward as an actual society as opposed to a horrible or horribly nice place to be? What do cannon adventures have to say about this? Because I just don't know what to expect.

Given that most Outsiders are intelligent critters, I imagine it'd be similar to answering the question "what do humanoids do all day?" Answer: A rather wide variety of things (although outsiders do have a slight habit of being purpose-built).

[Waker]

Since the term "Outsider" refers to a vast category of creatures, ranging from near-mindless demon grunts to enlightened angels serving at the sides of the gods, your question is rather broad. What the outsiders in question do is somewhat biased depending on what kind of outsider they are. As a general guess, I would say they would scheme to bring low their enemies, attend to the demands of their patron, sate their desire for pain and lust, prevent the depredations of the unjust, monitor the advances of their foes... One thing to remember is that many (though definitely not all) outsiders correspond to mortal emotions and thoughts, since they are often shaped by belief and oft times were formerly mortal themselves. The biggest difference between the actions of a mortal and an outsider is the scale of time available between the two and the fact that outsiders are frequently the literal embodiment of an ideal.

[NoACWarrior]

Given that most Outsiders are intelligent critters, I imagine it'd be similar to answering the question "what do humanoids do all day?" Answer: A rather wide variety of things (although outsiders do have a slight habit of being purpose-built).

Being purpose - built is much like having conviction knowing what you are doing is right or wrong... so you mean just living with conviction?
A great description of the daily life of an Aasimar: Bob the Aasimar.

Bob wakes up at 6 am with conviction.
Bob empties his blader with conviction.
Bob eats breakfast with conviction.
Sometime later that night.
Bob drinks 3 draughts of mead with conviction.
Bob hits on a solar woman with conviction.
Bob is hit unconscious on the floor and sleeps with conviction.

[BWR]

They sit around all day wating to be used by powerful mortal casters on the Prime. What else would they do?

Or you can read stuff like Planescape and realize they have their own societies, their own personalities, their own goals and the Primes are basically extraordinarily self-absorbed and ignorant folks who think everything revolves around them. I can't really speak for the Pathfinder setting, but I assume it's close enough to the Great Wheel that some things are more or less the same. Races like tanar'ri, baatezu, eladrin etc. are living embodiments of their alignment. Abyssals aren't just beings who want to dominate everything an put themselves on the top of the heap and take joy in crushing the opposition, they are the distilled essence of this. They have personalities and hobbies and individual quirks etc, but at core they are living physical embodiments of metaphysical concepts. Abyssals will try to destroy and/or dominate everything because that is their nature. Infernals will try to dominate through order and strict, lawful hierarchy. Eladrin will promote beauty, art, and freedom because that is very literally what they are.

Then there are the multitudes of creatures that by 3.x standards would be called Outsiders but don't really represent multiversal aspects, like the various mortal races that live on the planes. There are large amounds of humans, elves, dwarves, etc. doing much the same as their Prime counterparts do (only with slightly less ignorance about the Prime and possibly with more snobbery for not being Primes).

And don't get me started on the Inner Plane outsiders (Insiders?).

[Grytorm]

I think part of why it is hard for me to come imagine what outsiders typically do is because I don't think I've ever been able to picture a core function of what their job is. The actions of people is greatly shaped how they gain subsistence. Because outsiders need not eat that portion that can be used to develop an idea of what types of actions mortals take. If anything I have a hard time conceiving of what low level demons do as work. Higher level ones can scheme and plot.

I start thinking of the Dretch. Terrible combatants and cowardly creatures. I would guess that they would be bullied by larger demons into work, they would also be lazy avoiding work when they could. Seeking petty amusements, petty cruelties. Then comes the next level, what are they forced to do. They can be pressed into armies to be thrown away en masse. They can be used as servants attending to the whims of the powerful. Enslaved in grand projects is the last thing I can easily imagine, palaces, roads and fortresses. Dark plantations growing terrible things. Raw labor would be a useable function. Maybe I am imagining to many Dretches, but I have a hard time imagining enough work for hordes of them.

[Slipperychicken]

I kind of like Grim Fandango's ideas of what such people do. Basically, they lead regular lives, have character flaws, and hate their jobs just like any mortal. The only real difference is that their soul-crushing 9-to-5 hellhole usually involves the bureaucracy and logistics of processing dead souls.

So yeah, they're doing similar stuff to us. Like scrawling graffiti on bathroom walls, being unemployed, playing card games, doing the dishes, mopping the floors, writing letters, managing workflow, fantasizing about a better life, and waiting for their next day off.



Being purpose - built is much like having conviction knowing what you are doing is right or wrong... so you mean just living with conviction?
A great description of the daily life of an Aasimar: Bob the Aasimar.

Bob wakes up at 6 am with conviction.
Bob empties his blader with conviction.
Bob eats breakfast with conviction.
Sometime later that night.
Bob drinks 3 draughts of mead with conviction.
Bob hits on a solar woman with conviction.
Bob is hit unconscious on the floor and sleeps with conviction.

I seriously pity the guy who's "purpose-built" to get drunk, hit on women, and get rejected.

[Coidzor]

I've often wondered what the devils in the courts and cities of Baator do, I must admit. Do they have notaries? Do the clerks have little offices where they do the paperwork? Do they actually have paperwork in a form that would be recognizable or do they just use their telepathy to beam things directly to some kind of repository of knowledge made up of twisted and tortured souls/specialized baatezu/constructs? Are they EVIL offices or are they just offices where everything and everyone in them is comprised out of evil matter?

Does Hell have EVIL parks? Where do devils have clandestine meetings? Do they have to leave the 9 Hells to have them?


I start thinking of the Dretch. Terrible combatants and cowardly creatures. I would guess that they would be bullied by larger demons into work, they would also be lazy avoiding work when they could. Seeking petty amusements, petty cruelties. Then comes the next level, what are they forced to do. They can be pressed into armies to be thrown away en masse. They can be used as servants attending to the whims of the powerful. Enslaved in grand projects is the last thing I can easily imagine, palaces, roads and fortresses. Dark plantations growing terrible things. Raw labor would be a useable function. Maybe I am imagining to many Dretches, but I have a hard time imagining enough work for hordes of them.

An essential function of Dretches is that they are something for others further up in the hierarchy to torment and destroy.

[Slipperychicken]

I've often wondered what the devils in the courts and cities of Baator do, I must admit. Do they have notaries? Do the clerks have little offices where they do the paperwork? Do they actually have paperwork in a form that would be recognizable or do they just use their telepathy to beam things directly to some kind of repository of knowledge made up of twisted and tortured souls/specialized baatezu/constructs? Are they EVIL offices or are they just offices where everything and everyone in them is comprised out of evil matter?

Does Hell have EVIL parks? Where do devils have clandestine meetings? Do they have to leave the 9 Hells to have them?


It's a legal office in hell. Of course it has paperwork. Enough paperwork to make even the immortal denizens of hell say "aww hell no, ain't nobody got time for that!"

I like to imagine demons sitting at their undersized cubicles, writing furiously in the hopes that they might finish early today.


Hell probably has a handful of shoddy, poorly-maintained parks full of garbage and homeless dretches, because most of the money allocated to them was embezzled or stolen. Also, they might have some concrete plazas decorated statues of archfiends, and engravings of devils eating dwarves.

[Eldan]

Actually, I don't think hell would be inefficient. If anything, it would be brutally, mercilessly efficient in anything. Because being inefficient at your job annoys your higher-up and he will demote you. Sometimes violently. Plus, the Baatezu are lawful evil. They do what they think is right. Destroying demons. They are the multiverse's largest wartime economy.

[NoACWarrior]

I kind of like Grim Fandango's ideas of what such people do. Basically, they lead regular lives, have character flaws, and hate their jobs just like any mortal. The only real difference is that their soul-crushing 9-to-5 hellhole usually involves the bureaucracy and logistics of processing dead souls.

So yeah, they're doing similar stuff to us. Like scrawling graffiti on bathroom walls, being unemployed, playing card games, doing the dishes, mopping the floors, writing letters, managing workflow, fantasizing about a better life, and waiting for their next day off.

I seriously pity the guy who's "purpose-built" to get drunk, hit on women, and get rejected.

Thats not what I was trying to joke about. :smalltongue:

I was just saying that if outsiders do things the same way that we do, but are purpose built knowing that what they are doing is what they are "supposed to be doing". That thought itself made me think that everything that bob did was with conviction, knowing that it was the right thing to do, or at least what he should be doing. Right up till he gets knocked out by a solar.

[The Prince of Cats]

Planescape is the place to look, I agree.

They have lives (those who are not too closely-aligned to chaos or law) and goals and desires. Many of them even have jobs on their own planes, though others will have jobs and quotas involving the Prime Material.

We think of succubi and archons when you talk about outsiders, things that are called on or which are antagonists to the players, but even they have lives in their own planes. A succubus is essentially no different to a contractor who sometimes has to visit clients in other countries, as far as I am concerned; at home, she is comfortably off and might spend her time in leisure or training activities, then nips off to steal some souls when she gets summoned or when an opportunity arises tat she thinks she can use. An archon might be a great military leader or special-forces soldier to their own people, often performing tasks only they could in their home plane and supporting their superiors in inter- and intra-planar operations, but still willing to lend aid to their allies on the Prime Material to support their own faction's goals.

We're often talking about immortal entities which have plans spanning millennia, so they're likely involved in schemes with goals long-term enough to make an elf's lifespan seem short. They play the long games, inscrutable and unfathomable...

[ImperatorV]

I always liked the picture on page 196 of savage species, which has a vrock and a tiger-demon of some sort arguing vigorously over something while a clearly annoyed Incubus is trying to read. They may be pure incarnations of chaos and evil, but they still have books.

[Psyren]

The Nosy - excuse me, Nosoi - are indeed pretty interesting psychopomps. They're also fairly powerful as far as familiars go - DR 2/adamantine, 60ft. creature-only blindsight, at-will invisibility, can shapeshift into a regular rave at will, immune to poison, disease and death effects etc.


I always liked the picture on page 196 of savage species, which has a vrock and a tiger-demon of some sort arguing vigorously over something while a clearly annoyed Incubus is trying to read. They may be pure incarnations of chaos and evil, but they still have books.

I believe he's reading "HOW TO PICK UP GIRLS" which, quite apart from not being the most scholastic of pursuits, suggests that he's not a very good incubus either. :smalltongue:

The other two appear to be planning a caper of some kind.

[Leviting]

[/QUOTE]I seriously pity the guy who's "purpose-built" to get drunk, hit on women, and get rejected with conviction.[/QUOTE]

[Segev]

Actually, I think the bureaucracy in Hell would be nightmarish. No puns intended. Bureaucracy has a horrible reputation because it is inefficient. But inefficiency is, itself, a tool. About 30% of bureaucratic inefficiency is simply the overhead necessary to keep all the various moving parts between which bureaucracy serves as the sole channel of communication informed. This can go up and down in value and efficiency because this is the part that really is doing what it's meant to.

But bureaucracy bloats, and another 20% (at least) is usually extra work in place as redundancies and well-meaning checks that the justifiable 30% is really being done right. The rest - and it's probably higher in Hell as it will be the part that inflates the most - is split between deliberate efforts to use the bureaucratic system to obstruct one's political rivals within an organization, and malign additions to the system designed to take and hold power and control over aspects of the organization for little reason other than the establishment of personal fiefdoms.

And in Hell, they're going to be ALL ABOUT those personal fiefdoms.

Paperwork will be excruciating because Lawful Evil is all about knowing and manipulating the rules to serve you and hurt your enemies (or just those who you like watching squirm).

Still, I'm certain they find time for the recreational activities of Hell. Going to gladiatorial events, visiting the local torurarium (where delectable torments are inflicted on sentient beings for your entertainment), and other forms of decadent and prurient diversions. After all, the point of power is to abuse it for your own pleasure. And they use the law to accumulate power.


Demons, on the other hand, I envision having very little paperwork. They do what their bosses tell them as long as they are afraid of getting their ears boxed (or legs broken) for disobedience. They toady and cajole. They spend more time pursuing personal delights, but at the same time spend more time dodging responsibility and seeking short-cuts to more power so they can make others do things for them.

The Drow show us a lot about how CE can be a conniving and intricate court. Laws barely exist, and only insofar as those at the top choose to make and enforce them.

LE intrigue is all about manipulating standing rules and enacting new ones to benefit oneself and hurt one's foes. CE intrigue is about toadying and alliance-making, and timing one's betrayals so that you get your benefit before they do and you can backstab them without losing anything.

Similar vile delights to those pursued by LE devils await the CE demon's off-hours, but they will be less organized and more likely to be "cash up front" deals. And you go into it ready to defend yourself from becoming PART of it, rather than relying on the paperwork and laws to protect you.

[Grytorm]

The Nosy - excuse me, Nosoi - are indeed pretty interesting psychopomps. They're also fairly powerful as far as familiars go - DR 2/adamantine, 60ft. creature-only blindsight, at-will invisibility, can shapeshift into a regular rave at will, immune to poison, disease and death effects etc.

I didn't really pay that much attention to the stats but I do like the Nosoi. I can imagine hundreds of them filling out paperwork, delivering messages and other things. However they would also spend a lot of time trying to get others to fill out paperwork for them and other things. Trying to get more time to hang around doing a little as possible. I can also imagine them trying to convince unjudged souls still in processing to use those wonderful hand things to do them favors like building better roosts or lifting heavy piles of paperwork.

[hamishspence]

I always liked the picture on page 196 of savage species, which has a vrock and a tiger-demon of some sort arguing vigorously over something while a clearly annoyed Incubus is trying to read.

That would be a rakshasa - Native Outsiders rather than extraplanar. Also LE rather than CE.

[Duke of Urrel]

I've often wondered what the devils in the courts and cities of Baator do, I must admit. Do they have notaries? Do the clerks have little offices where they do the paperwork? Do they actually have paperwork in a form that would be recognizable or do they just use their telepathy to beam things directly to some kind of repository of knowledge made up of twisted and tortured souls/specialized baatezu/constructs? Are they EVIL offices or are they just offices where everything and everyone in them is comprised out of evil matter?


It's a legal office in hell. Of course it has paperwork. Enough paperwork to make even the immortal denizens of hell say "aww hell no, ain't nobody got time for that!"

I like to imagine demons sitting at their undersized cubicles, writing furiously in the hopes that they might finish early today.

Terry Pratchett has a similar opinion. Here is a brief description of Hell in the Discworld (http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/index.php/Hell).

"Souls are necessarily disembodied, so how can they feel pain? Torture doesn't work, so hell has actually been designed along lines we can all identify with: the grey-faced nightmare of interminable and infernal red tape and the mindless bureaucracy that suffocates every last hopeful thought and replaces eternity with an infinite miserable wait for nothing to happen. Souls are being forced - not to roll rocks up hills (a la Roundworld's Sisyphus) or be bereft of food and water (as Tantalus was) - but to sit through every last codicil and sub-paragraph of the rules pertaining to Health and Safety. All 40,000 volumes of them... There's even a new sign for Hell's door: You don't have to be damned to work here, but it helps!!! The door's thoughts on this matter are, so far, unknown.

The archdemonic mind that has created this vision is one Astfgl, who would rather not have empires of corpses burned to no good end, but to put in place legions of bureaucratic taxation that would turn the innumerable human minds of those empires to slag. This is one of TP's better visions, as the kind of mind-numbing torpor induced by petty officialdom and rules that chase each other (in triplicate) from Pink Form A143E to Grey Form C34002Zii and from helpdesk to bureau to helpdesk is one that we all can recognise. No doubt, like Pipeworth's Bank, Hell has a Human Resources Department, staffed by demons too officious, ineffectual or stupid to do anything else, to reduce every last detail of a demon or damned soul's career as part of a never-ending paper chase..."

[Red Fel]

Here's a fun little thought exercise.

Outsiders are formed from the fabric of their respective planes. As such, it permeates their being; the plane is them and they are the plane. Being in their home plane is a delicious sensory experience in the Good planes, a constant throbbing pain in the Evil planes, a sense of order and belonging in the Lawful planes, and a maddening rapping of a flounder on a panda-poop-paper notebook cover in the Chaotic planes. Simply being there, being home, is a total sensory experience.

Imagine, for example, the feeling of a Trumpet Archon in Celestia. He doesn't have to do anything. He just has to be there. Imagine the taste of a cinnamon bun, fresh out of the oven, the sugar syrup running over the sides, the dough soft and yielding, the cinnamon speckled throughout. Now imagine that it's not a taste, but a sensation, permeating your being. You don't have to do anything, just feel it, everywhere. That's what the Trumpet Archon has. He can simply sit there and feel the Celestial cinnamon bun.

Now imagine that your Wizard casts Gate, summons him away from his cinnamon bun, where the world is real and raw and sharp and there is no cinnamon bun, no sugar, no warmth, no comfort, no familiarity, just a gaping hole, a disconnect where Celestia would be, and this pathetic mortal responsible is now demanding his service, and he must obey. Your Wizard kind of sounds like some sort of horrible monster, doesn't he?

So the Archon goes back to Celestia, relieved, and gets to enjoy his cinnamon bun again. But lingering at the back of his mind is the knowledge that there are these horrifying creatures in the Prime Material, these disturbed beings who somehow are more complex than simply Good, who don't grasp how sublime the cinnamon bun is, who can never understand the absolute joy of Celestia and the anguish it causes to be ripped from it. And these creatures will do it to him again. And he can't quite enjoy the cinnamon bun as much as he did.

And perhaps he'll distract himself by preparing for combat against the Lower Planes, by training and such, although he doesn't need to - he was crafted from whole cloth with that knowledge, with that ability. He knows what he needs to know and can do what he needs to do. There's no need to do anything but enjoy the cinnamon bun until he is called to action. And perhaps, if he is not torn away, years may pass and the anxiety will fade. But for as long as he exists, a piece of him will always fear for Celestia, for his precious cinnamon bun.

At least, that's what I see going on there. Your mileage may vary.

[Slipperychicken]

So the Archon goes back to Celestia, relieved, and gets to enjoy his cinnamon bun again. But lingering at the back of his mind is the knowledge that there are these horrifying creatures in the Prime Material, these disturbed beings who somehow are more complex than simply Good, who don't grasp how sublime the cinnamon bun is, who can never understand the absolute joy of Celestia and the anguish it causes to be ripped from it. And these creatures will do it to him again. And he can't quite enjoy the cinnamon bun as much as he did.


Maybe this is why it's so hard to get into heaven: all the strictures of goodness are just a construction to keep out mortals so their presence doesn't re-traumatize victims survivors of celestial trafficking.

[Particle_Man]

Good ones try to discover the nature of life, bad ones play parcheesi. :smallsmile: