The Optimizer in an unoptimized world

[arkangel111]

or rather how to play in a game when you're the only optimizer...

Is there a Handbook/Guide? Some easy rules to follow to prevent soloing the game. I don't think I am the greatest optimizer but I am definitely top-dog in my groups. Mainly because I get a little obsessive about my characters and do all sorts of research.

if there isn't a guide would some people like to collaborate with me and we can perhaps design one. Maybe even design a counterpart to help the unoptimized get a little more out of their characters.

Just wondering because even playing low tier classes I can outdo the groups I play with.

[NoACWarrior]

So long as the group is ok with you dominating then thats fine.

I found that if I optimized a class with worse abilities than the t3 + classes that I would be alot more satisfied with the result and that I got to feel like I was in a party and not dominating it.

If you are lamenting having to solo everything, thats a RP issue.
If you simply want to not have to do all the work, do something odd in the first round of combat like dig out your weapon or complete defend.
Theres alot of things an optimized character can do to not break a game or trivialize an encounter.
You still have your weapon proficiency, so you don't need to always pull out the nukes.

Then the party will high five you when its a really close battle and you use your nuke of last resort to win it instead of instawin with nuking right off the bat.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I've been in this position a number of times. Here's some things I've done to avoid making everyone feel obsolete:

1) Mr. Support. Cleric with DMM: Chain Spell and a whole boatload of buffing. In combat, he doesn't really do much other than toss around a couple of spot-healing as necessary, however thanks to him the whole party is pretty much immune to status effects and has significantly higher than normal numerical bonuses. And he does have some capability left in reserve for when the biological waste product hits the rotating propeller blades, he just almost never uses it unless the party is about to be TPK'd or something.

2) Hold Back. You don't need to alpha strike every encounter that walks down the pike. Play a support or leadership role, and don't start off with the big guns. In fact, don't use the big guns at all unless it is absolutely necessary. Even then, don't be blatant about it. For example, you run up against something you know is going to be tossing around tons of negative levels. Quietly Death Ward the party. Now you've negated the primary threat, and the party can mop up without ever realizing just how much trouble they could have been in, and let them pat themselves on the back about how they owned that encounter. The sly smirk to the GM, and his grinding teeth in response, will be reward enough.

3) Battlefield Control. Easily one of the most powerful things to do, and surprisingly enough few people who play 'low op' realize how effective it is. Toss down a Slow and let the melee mop up. You've negated a primary threat, and let your people do what they do more effectively, but you haven't thrown out something like paralysis or sleep which is a blatantly obvious 'lose' conditional. Stick to the 'save or suck' stuff and you'll do fine.

[Spore]

I usually take the weakest class or concept I can get my grasp on and optimize mildly towards its strengths (or cover its weaknesses moreso).

[squiggit]

If you can't resist optimizing and have trouble holding back... Support optimization is really really good because you're essentially going to be optimizing making the rest of your team look better. Utility bards, Control Wizards (potentially avoiding save-or-suck because beating on helpless targets isn't so cool), buffing clerics and druids, etc.

You can do all your high-op tricks but in the process you help make the rest of your party look like the real terrors.

[LTwerewolf]

Be god. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0) The real trick is trying to make it so that your party doesn't know you're doing it. Cleric with the destiny domain (rod) and a few buffs also works. Hand a note to the dm when someone fails a save "domain power, have them reroll" and they can chalk it up to wow they're just awesome.

[AnonymousPepper]

Play an artificer that focuses on item creation (any full caster can do this in PF; it's the XP costs in 3.5 that mandate an artificer).

You can optimize an artificer to break the hell out of a 3.5 game while still making your party the stars of the show and not you. They are the 00 Agents, you are Q-Branch. James Bond would be NOTHING without Q, but he gets the credit... and you will be okay with that.

Alternatively, play something like the God wizard build, focusing on transmutation rather than conjuration, or alternatively just a plain optimized Focused Transmuter. You can buff the ever loving crap out of the party and indirectly dominate through your party without ever casting an offensive spell, and it feels amazing. (edit: swordsage'd)

[Windstorm]

If you're looking for something of a more martial or skill centric route, a lockdown build utilizing the ToB classes or going for an exemplar are hugely fun and still let the rest of the party do work.

I think my best experience to date has been playing a spiked-chain lockdown warblade with a buddy's control focused wizard. The rest of the group was nearly entirely first time or inexperienced players, so good fun was had making them the stars of the show. (The DM, not so much, to quote "it's because of you guys I know what monsters are immune to most CC without looking")

[Mjollnir075]

Honestly, I felt the same way in the last group I played in. It was PF, and I was a Druid (which isn't as powerful as it's 3.5 counterpart, but I digress..). The rest of the party consisted of a Fighter, Monk, Ranger and Cleric. Cleric knew what he was doing, and relied on healing, buffing (if we knew there was a battle coming) and combat. Since I was the only one who really knew any OP tricks, I did what I could to keep from being top dog every encounter. Some of the things I did were:

- Picked a Falcon for an animal companion. Went for flavor over RAWR-TIGER-POUNCE-DEATH.
- Relied on wildshape more for scouting/out of combat utility
- Focused on fighting minions over the (woefully underpowered) Big Bads.
- Summoned weaker flanking buddies for my teammates.
- Threw skill points into things like Perform: War Chants and Craft: Runes, just for RP fun.

TL;DR
In an unnoptomized party, just shoot to have fun. Shine now and then to let them know you got their backs, but don't rub it in. We are all here to have fun. :smallbiggrin:

[Taelas]

Start from deliberately poor choices, then optimize as much as you can get away with from there. For instance, make a Fighter who only wields quarterstaves.

[Cloud]

Plenty of great ideas in here, just adding normally I start with a weak class or concept, and then optimise within those bounds (play a half-elf truenamer if you really want to ham up "Watch as a optimise to shining mediocrity!" =P ).

Of course the support route is also a great idea, a bard or caster that focuses on playing 'God' can be a great way to flex the optimisation muscles, without overshadowing people.

[BWR]

A friend of mine bascially does this:
1. come up with character
2. nerf it a bit
3. nerf it a bit more
4. nerf it a little bit more
5. bring to table
6. have something nerfed in play.

He still ends up with some of the best characters.

[AttilaTheGeek]

When I'm the only optimizer in the group, I take it as an opportunity to play a build that might be fun but isn't necessarily supported by the rules. For example, in a recent pathfinder game, the rest of the party was a dual-wielding fighter, a rogue with a two-handed weapon, and a sorcerer who doesn't know his own spells. So, I decided to play a fighter/bard/battle herald (APG) who buffs allies in combat and hits enemies with a shield. It's a fun build, and I'd never be able to play it in a party that wasn't low-op.

[Shinken]

There is a very simple guide: "don't be a jerk".

[Eldariel]

Make sure your combat contributions are such that you don't get bored (e.g. charger is a bad plan for an interactive game), make sure your friends don't get bored and make sure the DM doesn't need to vary difficulty overtly much for your sake. I like to pick something with options and use them as as needed. Most tier 3+ classes can do that. I also often help my friends optimize their concept to the desired level but that of course requires certain types of group dynamics and thus isn't always an option.

[Ansem]

I've played an optimist to hell Archivist in a game with basically new players, I simply buffed the **** out of them and got their backs, healed them when needed and if the time was dire shot the bad guy in the head before he could land a killing blow. I was Gandalf to these fragile muffins :P never a single complaint about it except not using more explosions with magic.

[Gnaeus]

Play an artificer that focuses on item creation (any full caster can do this in PF; it's the XP costs in 3.5 that mandate an artificer).

No they don't. It is brutally hard to craft yourself down even 1 full level in 3.5. Being one level below party average when you are an optimized caster and other PCs are unoptimized is not a drawback at all. Start at level 3 with craft wondrous, and burn that exp every chance you get. Spend your WBL on it also, it isn't like you need it.

[Vaz]

A Bard can do quite well at this; especially a Warforged. Until you take the 3rd level in Reforged, you don't tend to benefit from your own abilities which prevents you from Snowflake Wardance+Dragonfire Inspirationing yourself into doing 17d6 damage.

Reforged is a brilliant class as well; it requires a Craft, or Profession check; with Bard levels you can either act as a crafter, or, in my favourite, Profession (Sailor). A Campaign can be screwed over without "Profession Sailor", especially without a "god wizard" who is able to get spells like Overland Flight on the party etc.

Alternatively, a Binder is fantastic. One such thing is having the DM ham up the penalties for failing the signs; such as Naberius's gravelly voice having penalties on your Diplomacy/Bluff etc. A Bard Binder Anima Mage as well can be further optimized; Persistomancy etc.

[Bloodgruve]

A lot has to be said for not optimizing. If your DM is not super experienced and ready to take on an optimized party the game can be steamrolled easily and really what fun is that? I personally enjoy a well fleshed out PC that is played true to its own motivations.

That being said, the party buffer or controller could be the way to go. Wizard, Cleric, Bard, Beguiler, Marshall etc.. If your party is low Op Bard could be a great choice. Optimize Inspire Courage and go.

Another interesting one could be a fully optimized Truenamer with Item Familiar and Truespeak boosted through the roof. I've heard that even fully optimized you won't be out-doing other classes. I've not had experience with the class on the table but I'm itching to try it. Don't do it unless your DM allows Item Familiar feat though ;)

Lastly, if you wanna play a different character every session you could try Binder or Incarnate. They're both super fun with a lot of daily options but if you don't optimize for one setup then you wont be overshadowing the others either.

GL
Blood~

[Inevitability]

First, think of some sample encounters, such as negotiating with a duke, fighting a young dragon and its koboldian servants, and fleeing an collapsing cavern.

Then ask yourself: "Does my character completely remove the need for others to do something here?"

If the answer is yes in one out of three/four/five cases or more often, you should probably play something else.

[Flickerdart]

A lot (not all, but a lot) of optimization requires builds to make sacrifices in certain areas in order to be good at others. This is most common with low-tier classes - fighters, for instance, are never going to be masters of sword and bow and tripping. This is not so much min-maxing as specializing, since your build has limited resources.

Avoid this. Invest only enough in a area to be able to contribute, and then move on. You probably don't need to empower your maximized orb of force, or summon bears while being two bears. Even if you're still acing encounters, the human mind is biased towards outliers - do 100 damage once and people will forever remember you as "that overpowered guy" but do 50 damage consistently and nobody will mind too much, if it's a level their characters reach occasionally (on a critical hit, or a lucky roll).

[Psyren]

"A good wizard/controller is like a good bassist - you don't notice him until he's gone."

If you can't resist optimizing, either optimize by making everyone else awesome, or optimize by taking something weak and bringing it on par with everyone else.

[Azoth]

Since no one has mentioned it yet, you could always go with a debuff build. Just decide during each fight how much you want to weaken the enemy for the group. You can easily scale it from just -2 to -4 (very easy low end debuffs to rolls) up to -27 (highest I have done without casting a spell) to whatever the enemy does pretty easily.

Most groups tend not to notice what you debuff an enemy until you do a massive one, and then they tend to be grateful and think you haven't done it before because you can't do it often.

[Mootsmcboots]

No offence, but who needs a guide for this?

Here's what you do, don't optimize.

If you're able to optimize effectively, you obviously have a significant understanding of PC creation. Look at your fellow player's PCs...adjust as you level accordingly.

[LTwerewolf]

No offence, but who needs a guide for this?

Here's what you do, don't optimize.

If you're able to optimize effectively, you obviously have a significant understanding of PC creation. Look at your fellow player's PCs...adjust as you level accordingly.

It's not really that simple. For example in my group, my "this build is totally not even optimized" turns into "wow, that's overpowered" when it hits the table. Keep in mind it's not really the build you come up with that makes the character over the top, it's what you do with it. The more clever and creative you are with the abilities your character does have, the more you'll seem optimized, even if you're just using rogue skills to tie up a baddy so he can't move. Optimize all you want, really, just make sure you hold back during the actual game.

[atomicwaffle]

No offence, but who needs a guide for this?

Here's what you do, don't optimize.

If you're able to optimize effectively, you obviously have a significant understanding of PC creation. Look at your fellow player's PCs...adjust as you level accordingly.

A fellow player in my group, and soon to be player in a campaign I'll be DMing, is new to D&D entirely. This forum, no offence, ruined him. Instead of exploring crazy combinations, trying new things, going for fun...it's all about the optimization.



(Try not to explode your head here) Optimizers ALSO HAVE FUN WHEN THEY'RE OPTIMIZING. Maybe he was a closet optimizer that became enlightened. I have fun creating powerful characters.

[Mootsmcboots]

It's not really that simple. For example in my group, my "this build is totally not even optimized" turns into "wow, that's overpowered" when it hits the table. Keep in mind it's not really the build you come up with that makes the character over the top, it's what you do with it. The more clever and creative you are with the abilities your character does have, the more you'll seem optimized, even if you're just using rogue skills to tie up a baddy so he can't move. Optimize all you want, really, just make sure you hold back during the actual game.

This seems no better a solution. I like the creative and clever aspect. However holding back effectively means you take any of the drama, any of the suspense of play because even if things are going badly, it's all good, I've been holding back.

It's basically Inigo Montoya syndrome.
He fights left handed because no one is a challenge(though he's a righty), ultimately knowing that even if he finds an equal opponent, he'll just switch to his right and all will be well. Barring any Dread Pirates of course.

[Karoht]

I find the trick is to build around a fun and flexible option. Something that will still be effective, but can be a swiss army knife more than a machette.

Example:
In Pathfinder I'm playing a Soundstriker Bard, and I've built myself around Weird Words. I'm also a Ninja, using Sneak Attack as my main source of damage, using Weird Words as the delivery platform for dealing that damage. It also does Strength or Dex damage, and I could have it auto-shaken virtually everything I hit if I were a Rogue and not a Ninja. Most of my build is based around stealth.

Here's the simple ways ways the DM can stop me.
1-Silence. On enemies or on me. Shuts down virtually everything I can do. Like trapping a Wizard in an antimagic field, it's pretty severe.
2-Things immune to flanking, flat footed, or precision damage.
3-Mirror Image and other illusions/misdirecting tactics
4-Range, Weird Words only works at 30ft.
5-Displacement/Blink, other miss-chance effects
6-AoE, enemies who can nuke a HUGE area make it difficult to jockey for position on Weird Words.
7-Burrow/Earth Glide/Ice Glide/Lava Glide, incorporeal creatures hiding in walls/floors/ceilings. Extremely hard to detect and often times even harder to actually reach and cause harm.

Here's the ways I'm semi-nerfing myself to not draw ire.
1-Weird Words only focus fires when it's the last enemy on the field. I spread the damage around and STR/DEX damage around. This way one enemy doesn't get destoyed with damage or debuffed into next week. Since Weird Words hits up to 10 times, I usually try and spread it around with 2-3 attacks per target I can get in range.
2-I will often sit at range and use Ventriloquism + Bardic Music to buff party members (centered on a target in melee) and stay out of sight if possible.
3-I treat myself like a sniper. I can typically one-round-kill (ORK) something if I want, and as such I won't reveal myself or kill anything until I feel like I have seen all the enemies on the board. And usually that something is a caster. So I tactically nuke that thing into last week, then wait and see what happens.
4-Battlefield control is one of my options due to spell casting. It's the one I use the most aside from buffing. I won't go nuke something dead until the Battlefield is the way I want it. And even then I might sit back and see how things go before I jump in.

[Metahuman1]

1: Optomizers like to optimize. It's a fun part of the game for them.

2: Optomizer's like to have fun role playing characters that are good at things and achieve goals based on there own worth and merits. I know Hollywood is fascinated right now with main characters who do little/nothing and are just handed everything on a platter that they pull off through no worthiness of there own, but some people don't want to play those kind of characters.

Toward that end, if I want to play a master swordsman, I need to actually be very very good with a sword, which means I need to be able to be very effective by myself at killing things with my sword while at the same time not dieing. This requires a certain level of optimization to make work. Or else I'm saying I'm something I'm not, I'm not role playing a master swordsman, I'm role playing a grandiose schizophrenic with delusions of being a master swordsman. Which is not fun for me and not what I want to be doing if my goal was to play a master swordsman. See the problem yet?




To the OP:

I suggest support characters. DMM Chain Spell and maybe DMM for a couple of other metamagics on a Cleric to buff the entire party along with yourself. You can then contribute to the fight by dealing damage and what not, but because you didn't just Divine Power and Righteous Might yourself, you did it for the fighter and rouge, and you summoned a flanking buddy for the rouge that's not doing much except be readily able to move to set up the flank and be hard for the enemy to do away with, there looking much better in the actual battle proper then you are.

Same thing for a Dragonfire Inspiration Words of Creation Bard. Or a Crusader focused on White Raven Maneuvers with a bit of healing from Devoted Spirit along with those spiffy shield counters/maneuvers to discourage enemy's form attacking anyone but you, and MAYBE a straight damage strike or two like mountain hammer for when it's really needed. Or a Wizard who throws a few nice but not OP buffs on there party and a few nice but not inherently encounter ending Debuffs/battle field control spells at the enemy, and beyond that relegates too a few utility spells that make everyone's lives a bit easier but don't always solve the game.

[Mootsmcboots]

(Try not to explode your head here) Optimizers ALSO HAVE FUN WHEN THEY'RE OPTIMIZING. Maybe he was a closet optimizer that became enlightened. I have fun creating powerful characters.

Head remains unexploded. This topic is about optimizers in games with non optimizers. Optimizers optimizing in a campaign full of optimizers? Optimal.

If an optimizer can't stop him/herself in a non opt game? It ruins it for everyone else.

It either makes play no longer fun for the rest of the party, or forces them to opt and play in a way they would normally not.

So it's easy. If other people, you know the group, the reason for playing is non opt, just don't opt. Just tone it down. Dial it back

[AnonymousPepper]

No they don't. It is brutally hard to craft yourself down even 1 full level in 3.5. Being one level below party average when you are an optimized caster and other PCs are unoptimized is not a drawback at all. Start at level 3 with craft wondrous, and burn that exp every chance you get. Spend your WBL on it also, it isn't like you need it.

I suppose this is true, and an item familiar can help with the XP.

I just find it much easier and less of a headache to go artificer.

Partially-related: That's what I'm doing in one group, actually. I've got a relatively new guy who's optimizing the ever loving crap out of a wizard in a large (~6player) game with new and low-op characters, so, seeing this and not wanting to ruin the wizard's fun, I rolled the most deliberately-high-op-as-crap artificer I could and dedicated myself to buffing the mundane and low-op party members with magical gear out the wazoo - and explicitly told the wizard out of the game that he won't be seeing much, because he's strong enough already.

And that's a nice thing about a buffer of any kind, be it a GOD Cleric/Wizard or an item crafter - you can choose who and who not to buff.

[Windstorm]

something to throw in here: optimization is nearly always by definition engineering a character toward a specific end goal. usually the goal in practical op is "finish an encounter as fast as possible with maximum repeatable consistency" however that doesn't always have to be the goal. maybe in a low op game you might have a character with an engineered goal of "be able to answer any knowledge question in the game world" or something else different and interesting. the end result becomes that instead of one-manning a campaign, you can use that array of knowledge to play character concepts and ideas with goals that are very difficult to achieve without that knowledge. Maybe that means you start out with a very suboptimal (under normal practice) starting combination, but it fits with the different goal you're trying to shoot for.

an example: starting chassis of half-celestial human, 1st level in the marshal base class. goal to engineer towards: providing as many additional actions and rerolls to the other members of the party as possible. fluff: former battlefield commander who now makes his living leading groups of fortune seekers on dangerous expeditions.

the above isn't practical op by any means under normal circumstances, but since you're in a game that is not optimized by any means under that normal definition, you can do things like that to flex your character creation knowledge without overshadowing other players.

[Kennisiou]

When I know I'm playing a low op table, I ususally do things like try to build a character that doesn't hit high optimization goals but is consistently contributing. I also avoid doing damage (when you're high op dealing high op damage at a low level table it stands out a ton), and tend to build around battlefield control, buffing, and debuffing, which are less obviously powerful (even though they're kinda, like, way more powerful than dealing damage but shhh, don't tell the low-op players that!). Bards are a good example of this, since as long as you aren't being super obvious and DFI'ing it up and the like you can optimize really heavily and people won't realize that your constant +12s are dealing more damage to the enemy than anything else, or that the only reason the rogue meets skillchecks consistently are because you give them a quick buff or two before skill-heavy encounters.

I feel like, oddly enough, one of the best classes to play to hit this benchmark is Druid. Druid has a ton of spells that are really useful for buffing, debuffing, and battlefield control at every level, but don't tend to completely overpower in any of those respects (compare entangle to grease or web). Additionally, while wildshape can be used to make yourself "better fighter" you don't need to use it that way. Instead of spending all your time as a bear, go for forms like cats, mice, birds, and dogs. Scout and sneak with the rogue/ranger. Make liberal use of "aid another" checks. In one game I would hang out in the rogue's pockets as a mouse at high levels and make listen/spot checks for them, all while aiding them on their sneak, disable device, and open lock checks (I took Jack of All Trades to make checks in any skills without investing a ton of ranks). Even when you're doing things to make yourself a frontline, don't make yourself the damage. Be a grapplebot/tripbot. The party will love you for making pesky tough-to-hit enemies into easy targets.

[Yawgmoth]

Head remains unexploded. This topic is about optimizers in games with non optimizers. Optimizers optimizing in a campaign full of optimizers? Optimal.

If an optimizer can't stop him/herself in a non opt game? It ruins it for everyone else.

It either makes play no longer fun for the rest of the party, or forces them to opt and play in a way they would normally not.

So it's easy. If other people, you know the group, the reason for playing is non opt, just don't opt. Just tone it down. Dial it back Okay let's try this another way. How do you make a character? Because when I make a character, my first thought is "I want to be good at X". Then I take things that are related to X. That's really all there is to optimization! So saying "just don't optimize" is saying "intentionally incompetent characters, characters that suck at everything they attempt, so that the other players don't have their fun ruined."

But what do you think is going to happen in that situation? Because in over 15 years of gaming, I have only seen that situation end in one way: the optimizer ends up saying "well I intentionally built poorly so I could play on your level." Which insults everyone else at the table and makes you look like an even bigger ass. So saying "just don't optimize" is a non-answer at best and antithetical to the question at worst. Stop it.

To the OP: Don't try to not optimize because it won't leave anyone having fun. Instead optimize for non-optimal things. It can be kinda fun to make things like a charisma-based paladin, or a sensate.

[Magma Armor0]

Along the same lines as what's being said here:

Alternatively, don't optimize for combat. Pick something unrelated, like crafting, performing, or profession, and make your character an optimized skillmonkey. Be the party blacksmith, or optimize your jump check to the point where jumping becomes a more efficient means of travel than walking. Try to make truenamer worth playing. Max out all the knowledge skills, and as soon as you enter combat, identify the enemy, its strengths, weaknesses, special attacks, favorite food, etc. Optimizing a skillmonkey *usually* draws less envy from fellow party members, especially when you're making their gear.

[Karoht]

Optimized Monk or Fighter in a party of non-ops is usually pretty darned awesome. Your Mileage May Vary.

Optimized healbot in a party of non-ops is often quite useful. Sure, you become the reason the party survives, but after a time they might survive long enough to start seeing patterns in combats, and develop better tactics, maybe even start orienting their build a nudge or two towards more optimal.

Optimized Face + Skillmonkey in a party of non-ops can be fun, so long as you aren't stepping on someone's toes. Bard is again my recommendation. You can face/skillmonkey pretty well, and in combat you can be turning enemies into friends, demoralizing them, outright fearing them, mentally manipulating them, in addition to buffing the party and some light battlefield control. You can make a huge deal out of the day you actually have to draw a weapon. You can optimize like crazy and likely not outshine anyone, but still be decently effective and bring a lot of utility.

[Psyren]

(Try not to explode your head here) Optimizers ALSO HAVE FUN WHEN THEY'RE OPTIMIZING. Maybe he was a closet optimizer that became enlightened. I have fun creating powerful characters.

Optimizing doesn't necessarily equate to "creating powerful characters." You can, for example, optimize a swordsman to be the ultimate disarming champion of D&D. Such a character would be lots of fun to play vs. armed opponents, but against natural weapon-using monsters and spellcasters they wouldn't have any specific advantage and thus not be powerful.

[Gabrosin]

I'm in this situation now, in a five-person party that basically has two optimizers and three relatively inexperienced players who are getting a lot of advice on making their characters effective and competent.

Our other optimizer went the route that some of you have suggested. He created something more on the ridiculous side, optimizing a ranged trip attack for battlefield control, along with serving as a secondary skillmonkey. He gave up his optimized exalted druid shapeshifter (whom he called Raptor Jesus) in order to make sure he wasn't just wrecking everything and putting the game's focus entirely on what he could do.

I went a different direction and optimized for unstoppability. I'm the BSF of the group, and my plan is to do a respectable amount of damage with normal melee attacks, but to make it very difficult for my character to be taken out of a fight. Warblade with Action Before Thought and Moment of Perfect Mind to fix my bad saves, Iron Heart Surge to shrug off negative conditions, Sudden Leap to get me out of bad spots (or into the spot I need to be), Combat Reflexes and 10' reach to keep goons from swarming me and hold down a dungeon corridor, and a gear plan based on eventually becoming immune to most of the things I can't already handle (negative levels, stunning, fear, and so on) for when my DM eventually starts forcing multiple saves in one round to get past the Warblade maneuvers.

As mentioned above, if you merely deal consistently good damage rather than eye-poppingly ridiculous damage, it won't seem like you're soloing the adventure, even if you were ultimately capable of it. You can try to get your DM to focus the worst fates on your character, knowing he can handle it.

In any group game, whether collaborative or competitive, there's an art to making sure that everyone is enjoying themselves, and for the most part it involves making sure that their creation gets to do what it was built to do. The surest path to victory is to be able to proactively shut down whatever plans your opponents have, either by killing them incredibly quickly or hammering them with effects that hamper their capabilities. Avoid this. Instead, make sure you build reactively. Not only is it going to produce a more fun experience for everyone involved, it's actually a greater challenge for you. What's more fun: killing the BBEG in two rounds and then shrugging and going about your business, or making something that stands toe to toe with the BBEG for 20 rounds and takes everything he can dish out without going down before prevailing in the end?

If you must, build in one or two powerful offensive capabilities and try to deploy them only in emergencies. Go ahead, take Shock Trooper, but don't charge someone to death every single round. Make sure that's not all that you bring to the table.

[GameSpawn]

A piece of advice many people have been dancing around is "don't do what the other players are doing". Buffing and battlefield control are usually pretty good roles for this, but if someone else wants that to be their thing, doing the same thing as them, but better, will cause them to feel (and possibly be) useless. There's usually no need to shoot blind here; asking other people what they're planning and then doing something different is probably the quickest route to everyone contributing, which should be your ultimate goal.

I would also discourage you from heavily optimizing your build with the intent of then holding back during gameplay more than you normally would. Unless you're willing to get TPK'd to keep up the facade, many players will get annoyed at consistently getting rescued (whether by you or any other circumstances).

[Particle_Man]

And people say there is no purpose to the soulborn. :smallsmile:

Or a monk.

Or a soulborn/monk/samurai/paladin! The golden-eyed exemplar of goodness and law that smites with his bare hands in the name of his master!

Or you can go the caster route so long as you take no more than one level in advancement of any class's spellcaster level (I worded that specifically to stop classes like mystic theurge). Your wizard 1/sorcerer 1/cleric 1/druid 1/psion 1/well you get the drill . . . will always have something to do, and it will never overshadow anybody.