Bard1/Fighter1, character progression ideas.

[WarKitty]

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=840950

Trying to do a light agile fighter with a bit of flair and a bit of buffing ability. Curious as to the playground's feedback. This is meant to be a frontline character, though not in a super-optimized campaign. Don't want to go past fighter 2, probably don't even need fighter 2.

Things I want:
Battle Caster
Improved Critical
Snowflake Wardance

Other things I should look at? Battle caster's the only one of those I could take at 3rd level. Certainly looking for more feats to fill things out. Spells or equipment I should look to pick up would also be helpful.

This isn't so much a "make the best character ever" (I'm in the party with a healer as make a reasonably sturdy character that's fun and can do cool things that are occasionally useful.

[HammeredWharf]

I'd optimize Inspire Courage and go full melee afterwards.

Bard 3 / Fighter 1 / Warblade 16

Feats:
Dragonfire Inspiration
Words of Creation
Song of the White Raven
Song of the Heart
Snowflake Wardance
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved TWF

Items:
Vest of Legends
Badge of Valor

Spells:
Inspirational Boost

Usually people go Bard 4 / Warblade 16, but Bard 3 still lets you hit the lvl 8 Inspire Courage sweet spot.

[WarKitty]

Let's avoid TOB please? Mainly because I don't want to keep track of maneuvers, but also because given the game I have I'm pretty sure a TOB class would quickly become a one-woman show.

I want something that's frontline while still keeping a lot of the bard feel to it. I'm less interested in true optimization (I can do that just fine) and more in creating a versatile interesting character without being a total failure as a frontliner. I really would like to keep it as a bard though. Think more of a viking warrior-poet archetype.

[HammeredWharf]

Well, without TOB, you can go Bard 3 / Fighter 2 / Bard +4 / Virtuoso 1 / Sublime Chord 1 or 2 / Virtuoso X. You'll lose a lot of BAB, but the casting capabilities will more than make up for it. The thing is, even a Bard 19 / Fighter 1 would overshadow your Healer mate without trying. You'd have to de-optimize on purpose to be comparable to him.

[WarKitty]

Fair point. I was certainly thinking of focusing my abilities on buffing, especially with DFI optimization. Maybe think of my job as helping the party look awesome, while being sturdy enough to keep things off of them. Some mobility stuff might also be nice.

It's going to be an interesting ride though. We have a druid and a psion and a rogue and a healer.

[Azoth]

If going DFI then nab Dragontouched so you can select a draconic ancestry that gives you a less often resisted damage type for those extra d6 of damage than fire.

[WarKitty]

If going DFI then nab Dragontouched so you can select a draconic ancestry that gives you a less often resisted damage type for those extra d6 of damage than fire.

Looks like a good idea. Is there any feat that lets me switch it up? Silverbrow and dragontouched seems a bit odd.

Also, obtain familiar or wild cohort? No particular optimization reason, I just want a pet. Or just try for a cohort via leadership and see if I can get something animal-y?

[Gwendol]

Fighter seems a little wasted on this build. Why not Swashbuckler? You get weapon finesse as a bonus and INT to damage.

[HammeredWharf]

Also, obtain familiar or wild cohort? No particular optimization reason, I just want a pet. Or just try for a cohort via leadership and see if I can get something animal-y?

Wild Cohort is better by itself, but you can do some really neat things with Improved Familiar. It gets your skills, so it could, among other things, UMD scrolls.

Come to think of it, an interesting, although not very powerful, option would be going Savage Bard 4 / Fighter 1 / Beastmaster 1 / Lion of Talisid 10. It doesn't give you a whole lot of musical abilities, but could be a decent mounted build. Oops, that doesn't work, because LoT's text says it only advances divine casting. Could make it work with a Divine Bard by getting Animal Domain, but it's probably not worth it.

[Gwendol]

Maybe fit Warrior Skald in for more martial flare?

[WarKitty]

Fighter seems a little wasted on this build. Why not Swashbuckler? You get weapon finesse as a bonus and INT to damage.

Look at some of my desired feats though. Battle caster requires armor proficiencies to really be of much use, medium just to use the feat effectively and heavy to later get mithral or other lightened versions. Improved critical works better if you have martial weapons available, to get something light (for TWF) with a good threat range. +1 damage isn't worth that, especially since I have no plans to increase my int.


Wild Cohort is better by itself, but you can do some really neat things with Improved Familiar. It gets your skills, so it could, among other things, UMD scrolls.

Come to think of it, an interesting, although not very powerful, option would be going Savage Bard 4 / Fighter 1 / Beastmaster 1 / Lion of Talisid 10. It doesn't give you a whole lot of musical abilities, but could be a decent mounted build.

Eh, savage bard would be better if it didn't have that weird int/cha thing going on with spells. Too MAD even for me. I was thinking wild cohort though, especially if I want to be able to keep things off the squishies.

[Techwarrior]

For a Bard, it's not that hard to be a good fighter. Their Inspire Courage let's them keep up the attack bonus of a full BAB class, and they get buffs and other tricks to give them some utility.

If you want to up your survivability, Improved Shield Bash combined with TWF can be a big help. A Heavy Spiked Shield deals decent damage as a mainhand weapon, and if you can score the Bashing property, it gets much better. The thing is, as a Bard (especially with Dragonfire), your actual weapon doesn't really matter so much, so getting cool effects added on (like AC) is a really good thing to do. I'd take another level of Fighter to grab a second feat, and then head straight through Bard.

[HammeredWharf]

Eh, savage bard would be better if it didn't have that weird int/cha thing going on with spells. Too MAD even for me. I was thinking wild cohort though, especially if I want to be able to keep things off the squishies.

No, that's Bardic Sage. Savage Bard is pretty much a Bard+, with good Fort saves, bad Ref, illiteracy and a slightly altered and arguably better spell list. Look it up in UA. It could fit your viking warrior theme quite well.

[WarKitty]

Some of the point of this thread is simply "what can I do?" Given the optimization level of the game, I figure this is my excuse to do things for no other reason than that it looked cool.

Snowflake wardance doesn't work with shields though, unfortunately. Not sure about taking fighter right away, mostly because the bonus feats I might want require a higher BAB. Probably better to wait until I can get something I want from it.

[WarKitty]

No, that's Bardic Sage. Savage Bard is pretty much a Bard+, with good Fort saves, bad Ref, illiteracy and a slightly altered and arguably better spell list. Look it up in UA. It could fit your viking warrior theme quite well.

Not bad. I note that would also qualify me for spontaneous SNA feats.

For background, this is an eberron character from the eldeen reaches. Hunter turned warrior and a storyteller, out adventuring after a vision.

[Killer Angel]

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=840950

Trying to do a light agile fighter with a bit of flair and a bit of buffing ability. Curious as to the playground's feedback. This is meant to be a frontline character, though not in a super-optimized campaign. Don't want to go past fighter 2, probably don't even need fighter 2.


Fighter 2 is really only if you need the feats. Why don't you take paladin, instead?. You'll stay reasonably "fighterish" and will use more your cha.

[prufock]

How about bard 3/fighter 2/war chanter 10? Optimize Inspire Courage and go to town with almost full BAB, giving your allies the same attack bonus. Last 5 levels could be... Seeker of the Song if you don't mind the BAB hit (ie you have a higher BAB guy in your party) and if you rule Combine Songs works twice (probably not RAW though). Even if you don't, however, the Focused Performance feat + Subvocalize should let you have 3 songs going in one round.

Otherwise, Abjurant Champion 5 or something?

[HammeredWharf]

How about bard 3/fighter 2/war chanter 10? Optimize Inspire Courage

The problem is that War Chanter doesn't advance Inspire Courage.

[Talya]

I love optimizing to a theme.

Champions of Valor has some substitution levels for fighter for worshippers of Eilistraee, called the "Darksong Knight." You may not go very deep into fighter, but they do have some thematic mixing with bard, as its mediocre abilities are all based off of Perform (Dance). There lack of power may not matter so much in your campaign.

[Darrin]

Snowflake wardance doesn't work with shields though, unfortunately. Not sure about taking fighter right away, mostly because the bonus feats I might want require a higher BAB. Probably better to wait until I can get something I want from it.

I usually recommend against Snowflake Wardance, because it forces you into using one-handed/light weapons. Two-handed is better for gishes, as you can take one hand off to cast spells as a free action. Arcane Strike is a much better deal: sacrifice spells for an attack bonus and a damage bonus. And while the attack bonus doesn't stack with itself, the damage bonus does stack... so you can dump all your spells into a single "nova" strike for Xd4 damage. I'd take that before bothering with Snowflake Wardance.

If you're going to use Dragonfire Inspiration, you'll want to decide if you're happy with fire damage or want to switch it to something more exotic like electricity or sonic. If so, you'll need to take Dragontouched and then Draconic Heritage. If you do something like Silverbrow human or Dragonborn of Bahumat, this gives you the dragonblood subtype but doesn't allow you to take sorcerer-only feats such as Draconic Heritage. If you can afford to fit two feats into your build, then yes, having all that bonus damage be sonic might be worth it, but if you're trying to do something else with your feats, such as Arcane Strike/Snowflake Wardance, you may not have room for it. If so, the preponderance of creatures with resistance/immunity to fire may be a wee bit overblown (unless you're DM goes deliberately out of his way to sandbag you).

Fighter 1/Bard 4 leads right into Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 3, and from there you can dip Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight +8. This is a very solid Gish build: BAB +18 and 9th level spells. Or if you want to focus on Bardic Music, replace Eldritch Knight with Virtuoso. If you want to grab Improved Critical, you could also throw another Fighter level in there and still have enough caster levels for Sublime Chord (need CL7 for 3rd level spells).

Fighter 1/Bard 8 also works well with Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight +8. This allows you to swap Suggestion at Bard 6 for Song of the Heart (Music of Creation, ECS) and your base Inspire Courage bonus goes up to +2.

For weapons, I'd recommend an Elvencraft Composite Longbow (Champions of the Wild), which counts as a quarterstaff. If you have the feats for it, you can TWF with this, or if not, use it as a two-handed club. Put in two wand chambers (100 GP, Dungeoncraft). The first wand should be instant of power (Forge of War) purchased from a druid for 750 GP, and the other wand can be inspirational boost (Spell Compendium), instant diversion (Races of the Dragon), or swift invisibility (Spell Compendium). If you max out UMD (and you should), then stock up on some utility wands (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?236756-List-of-useful-wands&p=12921450&viewfull=1#post12921450) as well.

[prufock]

The problem is that War Chanter doesn't advance Inspire Courage.

Bard grants +3 over 19 levels. Meh. Inspirational Boost, Badge of Valor, Masterwork Lute, Vest of Legends, Song of the Heart, Words of Creation, Dragonfire Inspiration (sonic), Creaking Cacophony. If desired, round out by taking more bard for the last 4 or 5 levels, and maybe make it bard 4/fighter 1 base instead of bard 3/fighter 2. Or grab a level of dread pirate for an additional +1x2 (WoC). Not discounting the additional +6d6, but war chanter makes a slightly better "frontliner" in my opinion, and can buff your allies up enough to destroy whatever crosses them. Leadership breaks this all to heck.

[Azoth]

Or if you want a front line fighter/buffer and aren't too overly commited to the "quick/agile" part of it, you can drop in the A Game Paladin and turn your entire party into scary beat down machines.

Obligatory link: http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376

Should also work with Paladin of Freedom so you don't have the "EX:Stick up the Butt" class feature.

[WarKitty]

Fighter 2 is really only if you need the feats. Why don't you take paladin, instead?. You'll stay reasonably "fighterish" and will use more your cha.

Because paladin 2 doesn't give you anything nearly as useful as a feat?


I usually recommend against Snowflake Wardance, because it forces you into using one-handed/light weapons. Two-handed is better for gishes, as you can take one hand off to cast spells as a free action. Arcane Strike is a much better deal: sacrifice spells for an attack bonus and a damage bonus. And while the attack bonus doesn't stack with itself, the damage bonus does stack... so you can dump all your spells into a single "nova" strike for Xd4 damage. I'd take that before bothering with Snowflake Wardance.

If you're going to use Dragonfire Inspiration, you'll want to decide if you're happy with fire damage or want to switch it to something more exotic like electricity or sonic. If so, you'll need to take Dragontouched and then Draconic Heritage. If you do something like Silverbrow human or Dragonborn of Bahumat, this gives you the dragonblood subtype but doesn't allow you to take sorcerer-only feats such as Draconic Heritage. If you can afford to fit two feats into your build, then yes, having all that bonus damage be sonic might be worth it, but if you're trying to do something else with your feats, such as Arcane Strike/Snowflake Wardance, you may not have room for it. If so, the preponderance of creatures with resistance/immunity to fire may be a wee bit overblown (unless you're DM goes deliberately out of his way to sandbag you).

Fighter 1/Bard 4 leads right into Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 3, and from there you can dip Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight +8. This is a very solid Gish build: BAB +18 and 9th level spells. Or if you want to focus on Bardic Music, replace Eldritch Knight with Virtuoso. If you want to grab Improved Critical, you could also throw another Fighter level in there and still have enough caster levels for Sublime Chord (need CL7 for 3rd level spells).

Fighter 1/Bard 8 also works well with Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight +8. This allows you to swap Suggestion at Bard 6 for Song of the Heart (Music of Creation, ECS) and your base Inspire Courage bonus goes up to +2.

For weapons, I'd recommend an Elvencraft Composite Longbow (Champions of the Wild), which counts as a quarterstaff. If you have the feats for it, you can TWF with this, or if not, use it as a two-handed club. Put in two wand chambers (100 GP, Dungeoncraft). The first wand should be instant of power (Forge of War) purchased from a druid for 750 GP, and the other wand can be inspirational boost (Spell Compendium), instant diversion (Races of the Dragon), or swift invisibility (Spell Compendium). If you max out UMD (and you should), then stock up on some utility wands (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?236756-List-of-useful-wands&p=12921450&viewfull=1#post12921450) as well.

That sounds ridiculously complicated and rather overpowered, as well as like it would require hogging treasure that's not guaranteed to be available. And that it would take forever to do anything interesting.

People, I'm not looking for ways to break the game and have a super-optimized character. Most of these builds would both destroy the character I have and be way out of place in the game I'm playing. This is an active character as well, so I'm also not looking for things that are going to take 10 levels to work. I'm looking for things to build a fun, interesting character.

Edit: As an existing character, that also means what's on the sheet is on the sheet. I just levelled up so the last level of fighter could be undone. However, the first level is fixed at what it is, along with the character information.

[Darrin]

People, I'm not looking for ways to break the game and have a super-optimized character.
[...]
I'm looking for things to build a fun, interesting character.


Building a highly-optimized, effective character and building a fun, interesting character are not necessarily mutually exclusive.



That sounds ridiculously complicated and rather overpowered,


Could you be more specific about what's complicated? Fighter 1/Bard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion X is a very common and pretty straight-forward build stub for a typical "Gish". My other suggestion, Fighter 1/Bard 8 was even simpler. From there, you can go straight through Eldritch Knight 10 if you prefer.

If it's the Sublime Chord you object to, I guess I can understand an argument that you "don't want to play a sorcerer".



as well as like it would require hogging treasure that's not guaranteed to be available.


This I don't understand at all. Hogging what treasure? I suggested a weapon with a base cost about 400 GP, 200 GP for wand chambers, and two 1st-level wands that only cost 750 GP each (however, the swift invisibility wand costs 1500 GP). Yes, all that would be obscenely expensive for a 2nd level character to afford, but when you asked for equipment advice, you didn't give any budget, resources, list of sourcebooks available, etc. As far as equipment goes, I'd probably consider my post to be considerably restrained (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-(Equipment-Handbook)&p=8235865#post8235865), both by word-count and cheese-content.

Simpler advice might have been: use a staff, put two wand chambers in it, buy a wand of instant of power ASAP. If you're serious about getting the most out of TWF, I might have some thoughts on that as well (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook&p=15034585#post15034585).

But the staff doesn't work for Snowflake Wardance or Improved Critical. I've always been overly fond of Oversize TWF (Complete Adventurer), which would work well with dual scimitars (unless your group is going to tease you about Drizzt clones). If you don't have room for Oversize TWF, then consider the cutlass in Stormwrack: same stats as a shortsword, but slashing instead of piercing.

If you'd like something more exotic, dual dragonsplits (MMIV) might work well with the dragonblood theme. If you're looking for more flavor, I always thought dual cutting wheels (Secrets of Sarlona) might be pretty nifty, but you don't have the Str for the Wind and Fire feat. Dual eagle's claw + Eagle's Fury feat (Sandstorm) could be interesting, and works well with Improved Critical/Snowflake Wardance.



And that it would take forever to do anything interesting.


You're a bard. You can make anything you do interesting.

But I'm still puzzled by your point that I suggested something that would "take forever". Odds are pretty good I misunderstood what you were asking for, in which case I apologize. I tend to think of character building in terms of a "whole career" view rather than just the next few levels.

As far as interesting things to do as a frontline bard... then I'd probably still advise steering towards Abjurant Champion or Eldritch Knight. Knight Phantom is similar to Eldritch Knight but more Eberron-specific. Aundair is next door to the Eldeen Reaches.

[WarKitty]

It's more that the build looked like it would take quite a while to take off and would switch feel midway. And it does look like it would be overpowered for where I'm at. I've done plenty of interesting super-optimized characters; I've also watched it break a party apart because I was bored and everyone else felt useless. I'm pretty sure dropping that character into this party would result in exactly that. What I'm trying to say is that this is a game where even if I optimized pure bard as well as I could (and I'm quite capable) it would probably be too much, because I'm not playing with optimizers.

My understanding of the world is that it's less that any specific source is off limits, and more that there's no guarantee that any specific item is going to be available. So I don't want to plan a build around odd things like an elvencraft composite longbow with wand chambers, because the most likely result is that I walk into a town and say I want that, and the DM looks at me like "what" and says they don't stock that here. Especially since I also don't see any good reason why a character that I built as a TWF hunter with knives would suddenly start using something like that.

It may be true that an optimized character can still be interesting, but there's also a lot of options out there that are interesting but don't get taken because they're not necessarily the best. If I wanted to just build the best fighting bard I could, that would be easy enough that I wouldn't be posting on this forum.

For clarity, here's the constraints I want:
- Optimization level should stay fairly low, and be tilted more towards buffing and defense.
- Just for fun suggestions are encouraged, regardless of optimization. Wild cohort being an example; there are better things I could do, but I want an eagle because hey it's an eagle.
- The background on the character sheet should hopefully provide some idea as to the character.
- Equipment required should not be too exotic. I want to keep a more peasant warrior feel to the character. This is a flavor requirement, I don't care what class it's listed in on the charts.
- Over-reliance on consumable magic items should be avoided.

[Killer Angel]

Because paladin 2 doesn't give you anything nearly as useful as a feat?

...hence the "Fighter 2 is really only if you need the feats" part...

after all, it was you that was saying that you wanted to do things for no other reason than that it looked cool. And IMO paladin is cooler than fighter.

[Xerlith]

And IMO paladin is cooler than fighter.

The Commoner is cooler than the Fighter. :smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

A Commoner is cooler than a Fighter. :smallbiggrin:

Silly me, you're right... :smalltongue:

[Bloodgruve]

Havent read all the responses so I apologize if this has been said but..

Have you looked a Whips? Bards are proficient and Scorpion Whip from Pathfinder can do lethal damage. 3.0 had a lethal damage Whip Dagger also from Arms and Equipment.

Dual Wield these with Oversized TWF and you're a mid range damage dealer and possibly tripper. Add Knowledge Devotion and Inspire Courage optimization for better results. Water Whip isn't terribly expensive and improves your damage.

You don't threaten your reach though with Whips less Pathfinder feats are available to you.

Its was a fun build that one session I got to use it in ;) Bard IMHO is a perfect agile fighter with some buffing abilities, you just gotta bolster its damage output but that's not hard to do.

Song of the Heart, Snowflake Wardance, TWF, Oversized TWF, Knowledge Devotion, Extra Music, Melodic Casting. Get something to clear the Fatigue from Snowflake.

Eberron allows you to switch out songs for specific feats, at lvl 6 you could drop suggestion for Song of the Heart if your DM is kool with it.

Healing Hymn ACF is pretty amazing, add your Perform ranks to any Cure spell. At 5th lvl a CLW can drop 1d6+13 hps, clerics Cure Minor Wounds heals for 9 hps as a 0 lvl spell...

Concentrate on Str and Int and maybe work in 3x Factotum levels for Int to Str and Dex checks maybe.


With such a low Str you'll want to look at thrown weapons or Weapon Finesse. You'll need to rely on Inspire Courage, Dragonfire Inspiraton and buffs from spells to do damage.

Dragonfire Inspiration can be stacked with Inspire Courage for both effects, Extra Music and Lingering Song help here. Song of the Heart feat(Eberron Setting), Badge of Valor(Magic Item Compendium) and Inspirational Boost spell (Spell Compendium) will each add +1 to your Inspire Courage or 1d6 to your Dragonfire Inspireation.

At 2nd level you should have 3 Feats. TWF, Dragonfire and either Point Blank (throwing build) or Weapon Finesse (melee build).

At 3rd level if you took Fighter you could add Quick Draw and Precise Shot (throwing build) or Extra Music and something else (melee build). -or- Bard would give you Precise Shot (throwing build) or Extra Music (melee build).

Your low strength won't let you take Oversized TWF so dual wielding whips is out :/



I'd prolly work with a melee build using TWF, DFI, Weapon Finesse, Extra Music as Bard1/Fighter1/Bard1.

Keep building Bard and optimize Inspire Courage as you don't have the strength to really capitalize on more Fighter levels.

Beg your DM for a Badge of Valor!

At 6th level see if you can switch out Suggestion for Song of the Heart using the Eberron substitution and take Lingering Song as your lvl feat.

At 6th lvl you'd have 4d6 fire cold damage and +4 hit and damage per attack if you sang both IC and DFI. With Lingering song you can drop a song but it's effect lasts for 10 rounds. Start up Inspire Courage when you think you'll see trouble then use your first standard action to drop IC and start singing DFI, keep singing DFI after combat until you get into the next fight and switch back to IC. You'll be eating through your daily songs but this method could help preserve some, just sing quietly when out of combat ;)

If you can swing 1 level of Warblade and grab Song of the White Raven this is terribly helpful as you can initiate a song as a swift action take this at lvl 9 if possible.

Make sure you have max ranks in Perform (Sing or Poetics or something not requiring movement or hands).

Blood~

[WarKitty]

...hence the "Fighter 2 is really only if you need the feats" part...

after all, it was you that was saying that you wanted to do things for no other reason than that it looked cool. And IMO paladin is cooler than fighter.

Yeah I getcha. Paladin 1 just doesn't give you much coolness, you need to get a few levels in to get to that. Really the only unique thing you get is the 1/day detect evil, since bard can already cast healing.

[WarKitty]

How would spellsword work with bards? The idea seems nice, but I'm not sure if there's any non-light armor with low enough spell failure to make it worthwhile. Though spellsword 3 would give me a little bit of a BAB boost without any more loss than fighter 2 would have.

Sublime chord - same thing, interesting but not sure it's an improvement.

[HammeredWharf]

Spellsword is a decent one level dip. It's pretty bad beyond that, especially because it doesn't give you any bard-y things. Sublime Chord is the best Bard PRC and really awesome no matter what you want. Take 1 or 2 levels of it and combine with Spellsword or Abjurant Champion for bardic face-smashing.

[WarKitty]

Sublime chord actually looks to be exactly the one thing I don't want to do - abandoning my bardic abilities for increased spellcasting. Not to mention ridiculous skill requirements in a game where I'm actually doing things with those skill points. That seems to be rather a "why didn't I just play a sorcerer" path.

[HammeredWharf]

Oh, but you take 1-2 levels of Chord and then proceed into a PRC. Virtuoso is a popular choice. Chord is also a great class because you can afford to lose a couple of spellcasting levels before entering it, because you can only enter it at level 11 and Bard gets lvl 3 spells at lvl 7. It's basically required to compete with T1 & T2 casters. Of course, its skill requirements are rather nasty and it's probably not needed at your optimization level.

On an semi-unrelated note, Chord can also be used by pseudo-Bards. One of my favorite ways of using it is via a few levels of Bard and the Suel Arcanamach PRC. It lets you take five levels of noncaster classes beforehand, like Full BAB Classes 5 / Bard 2 / Arcanamach 4 / Chord 1 or 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / etc.

[Deophaun]

Only reason I'd take levels of Fighter with this is to pick up Dodge and Mobility, which are the horrible, horrible feat taxes needed to enter Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a). Just two levels is all you need, although with DFI and Arcane Strike, a TWF build using the reverse Power Attack level 3 ability isn't too bad.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The Hit & Run ACF for Fighter 1 (DotU) doesn't actually have drow as a requirement. It gives +2 initiative and dex to damage against flat-footed targets in exchange for heavy armor and tower shield profiency, so it is a nice option for agile fighters.

Spellsword 1 only really does anything if you want to use a shield for a bard. You can get mithril full plate to 0% ASF but it costs quite a bit of money so it's not a low-level option and IMO not worth the cost over simply getting a mithril breastplate once it becomes affordable.

Getting natural attacks is a nice alternative to TWF that saves some feats.
Since you're dragonblooded already a totemist 2 dip would get you 5 natural attacks (2 claws from Dragon Claws, 2 wing attacks from Chaos Rocs Span, 1 tail attack from Dragon Tail). Add Multiattack and you're good to go for melee. You can also leave the wings and get some nifty abilities from your soulmelds since your totem chakra is free.
The claws also work with Snowflake Wardance.

For feats: Battle Caster doesn't mesh with Snowflake Wardance since it requires light armor. Get a mithril breastplate once it becomes affordable instead.
You'll probably want to pick up Extra Music to get more than 1 use out of your music if you don't pick up more bard levels. I'd at least plan to get bard 6 so you can trade Suggestion for Song of the Heart, though bard 9 is also nice for Inspire Greatness.
Martial Study for a white raven maneuver fits thematically with bard and opens up Song of the White Raven for swift action IC. It's also a fighter bonus feat so you can get there by level 3.
Doomspeak (CoR) is very nice and its requirements are pretty easy. You'll want more music uses first though.

[WarKitty]

Well, TWF is already sunk, and anyways I don't really fancy turning my character into a dragon. I'll keep spellsword 2 on the list if I ended up feeling feat-starved, since I am actually kind of using those feats and it would give me another fighter bonus feat without the dead level

Keep in mind that we're not talking about an optimized party. We have a healer and a couple of archers. My job is to be an ok frontliner and to boost everyone's damage, as well as serving as a skillmonkey for stealth and diplomacy.

Martial study does look rather nice - what maneuver should I take? Healing/buffing maneuvers encouraged over attack ones.

Edit: I'm actually thinking of dropping snowflake wardance, since long-term durability and survivability is more important than short-term attack power. And we don't really need me to be the one with the attack power.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Your choice for Martial Study is between Douse the Flames and Leading the Attack. Both have their uses and the choice isn't all that important anyway, you just need a WR maneuver for Song of the White Raven so you don't spend all your actions singing.

If you want more maneuvers you could also take a level of crusader. Devoted Spirit has some low level healing maneuvers and since they get access to White Raven you'll also get the qualification for SotWR out of the way. White Raven buffs are partly morale boni so they don't stack with your bardic music effects.

[WarKitty]

Better question:

In what books other than ToB might I find white raven maneuvers, so that I can look over all my options and make a choice?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sadly maneuvers were only printed in the actual ToB, there are only two mentions outside of it in the whole of 3.5 books, MM V has some outsider with Favoured class: Crusader) and Dragons of Eberron has a sovereign archetype which trades a dragon's inate spellcasting for Tiger claw maneuvers (Wyrm of War IIRC).

If you want healing maneuvers then you should be looking at a Devoted Spirit, not White raven which focuses more on charges and boosting team mates in melee, which won't work well with your party, considering they are archers and healers.

[WarKitty]

Sadly maneuvers were only printed in the actual ToB, there are only two mentions outside of it in the whole of 3.5 books, MM V has some outsider with Favoured class: Crusader) and Dragons of Eberron has a sovereign archetype which trades a dragon's inate spellcasting for Tiger claw maneuvers (Wyrm of War IIRC).

If you want healing maneuvers then you should be looking at a Devoted Spirit, not White raven which focuses more on charges and boosting team mates in melee, which won't work well with your party, considering they are archers and healers.

White raven's required for Song of the White Raven, which is a good bard-specific feat. It looks like the feat requires that I specifically have a stance known in order to activate the music quickly.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I forgot about song of the white raven, my bad.

Is there any reason you don't want to dip Warblade or Crusader then? it would save you a feat and you could get song of the white raven with your 3rd level feat. I guess fighter could work too, but you wouldn't qualify for SotWR until level 6, since martial stance requires martial study as a pre-requisite. Going Warblade 1 would net you more HP (d12 vs, d10) more skill points (4+int vs. 2+int), 3 maneuvers and a stance (worth 4 feats) and even a slight reflex bump while also qualifying for SotWR; a much sweeter deal than another boring fighter level IMO and waiting 3 more levels to get the feat.

[WarKitty]

I forgot about song of the white raven, my bad.

Is there any reason you don't want to dip Warblade or Crusader then? it would save you a feat and you could get song of the white raven with your 3rd level feat. I guess fighter could work too, but you wouldn't qualify for SotWR until level 6, since martial stance requires martial study as a pre-requisite. Going Warblade 1 would net you more HP (d12 vs, d10) more skill points (4+int vs. 2+int), 3 maneuvers and a stance (worth 4 feats) and even a slight reflex bump while also qualifying for SotWR; a much sweeter deal than another boring fighter level IMO and waiting 3 more levels to get the feat.

Martial Study gives you 1 maneuver by itself, which can be used to qualify for SotWR.

[Dusk Eclipse]

My ToB copy is in Spanish, so it is entirely possible I may be mistranslating, but it says "while maintaining a White Raven stance you may start your Inspire courage ability as a swift action" so even if the feat itself requires a maneuver you still need the stance to get the benefit, or at least that is my reading. And even then the benefits from the Warblade (or crusader) level outweight the fighters's one by a lot. Even discounting quicker access to the feat in question, once you get it your warblade levels will stack with bard levels for IC purposes; I'm sorry but I'm not seeing what Fighter brings to the table that warblade doesn't.

[Deophaun]

White raven's required for Song of the White Raven, which is a good bard-specific feat.
Only if you're actually going to be multiclassing Warblade or Crusader, really. Your swift action is generally claimed by either inspirational boost or a badge of valor.

[Demidos]

A couple fun ideas --

Talisman of the Disk -- seriously, best item ever at low levels. Be creative :smallamused:

Use alchemical items in combat. A tanglefoot bag is suprisingly useful and yet totally balanced. For extra fun, make your character an alchemist on top of his other traits -- only costs you skill points!

Give him a flaw, something from this list -- http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_Flaws. Since you seem to be the most competent optimizer in your group, no need to take a feat to replace it (or take something like skill focus alchemy!, take a leaf from Lanky Bugger's book). Then roleplay it all the way! If you follow the Giant's comic, heck you can describe most of the characters with a class and one of these flaws -- Fighter + family curse, Ranger + Obsessive Killer, etc). It can be something that has taken a backseat till now, no need to change your character's actions so far for it, but still. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised!

Hope that's what you were looking for!

[Larkas]

Okay, since you're asking mostly for flavor, I'll ignore high optimization a little, ok?

Are you dead set on that fighter level? I really like the "flavor synergy" between savage bard and barbarian! Furthermore, you said you want to be a frontliner to keep enemies from your friends, right? If you take spirit lion totem, you'll be that much more effective in melee! Rage can also help you neutralize your Str penalty and, with Whirling Frenzy, boost your Dex a little bit more. Lastly, you're aiming for Battle Caster, and it comes with just the armor proficiency to use it!

You apparently also want to focus on bardic music, right? Well, a level dip in warblade might be a good idea for qualifying for Song of the White Raven without spending feats. Crusader could be even better, but it seems like you want to avoid ToB if at all possible, and warblade 1 only has 3 maneuvers known, which are always readied, and just one stance. It reduces complexity and reliance on the book.

You might also want to take a total of 4 levels in full BAB classes to hit +16 at maximum level (eh, presuming level 20 is even relevant for you). Just take care to not lose more than 4 CL or you won't access 6th level spells! War chanter is flavorful, if underwhelming. Arcane archer would be nice (specially if allowed to take the PF one), but it doesn't synergize in any way with melee. Abjurant champion is the optimal way, but it's not very flavorful. Well, it's just something for you to think about.

Lastly, you might want to look for a way to add Dex to attack and damage, since it's your main offensive stat. Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade is the obvious option, but a bit feat intensive without a swordsage dip (which just might not fit in your build). If you want to go ahead with the aforementioned warblade dip, you could always see with your DM if you could swap schools and qualify from it.

Wild Cohort is a great feat to help you hold the line. If you want to choose an alternative animal cohort, see if your DM lets Natural Bond work for it so you can select the beast at the level it becomes available for druids! Anyways, try training it for war to give it the warbeast template, and remember to find a way to make handle animal a class skill (or maybe, who knows, get a friendly druid to cast awaken animal on it). Just be aware of inspire courage optimization here: the animal cohort will be a multiplicative force, specially if it has pounce. Mild optimization shouldn't break anything, though.

Lastly, on inspire courage optimization, don't be afraid to do it, just be careful to not overdo it. Taking only Words of Creation should be good enough, IMHO. And DFI, obviously.

Anyways, this is what I could come up with. I hope any of this can be of use to you!

[WarKitty]

Thanks. Let's say at this point (since it's been a session since I posted) what's on the sheet is on the sheet. I am allowed some minor homebrew - this is mostly relevant because class skill switching is allowed (gain skill X, lose skill Y). Savage Bard and Hit-and-Run ACF for fighter ok'd.

Instead of Dex to attacks, the plan was to go crit monster. A bit more luck-based than straight dex to damage, but still fun. Save up for some keen kukris and go to town.

As far as RP, I haven't really told the other players this:
Koyuki was a hunter, a singer, and something of a village priestess. She could not match magic with her wife, but her sacred duty was inspiration and memory. She would sing to the people, songs of hope in times of despair. She recounted their past for them, all the way back to the days of the mighty dragons. She taught them songs to the earth around them, songs of harmony with the land around them.

Then one night, she had a vision, a vision in which ancient secrets were laid bare in a far-away land. History and lore that had been lost for many generations, springing into life-giving song born of the very earth and water and air itself. The dream returned, night after night, each night bringing new insights and yet watching them slip away as the morning dawned. Finally, determining that she could no longer refuse the call, she left her wife and her village, hiring herself out as a travelling mercenary while seeking the meaning of her dream.

[Larkas]

Thanks. Let's say at this point (since it's been a session since I posted) what's on the sheet is on the sheet. I am allowed some minor homebrew - this is mostly relevant because class skill switching is allowed (gain skill X, lose skill Y). Savage Bard and Hit-and-Run ACF for fighter ok'd.

A fighter 1 or 2 levels dip is hardly bad for any melee-focused build. Just be sure to make the most of it!


Instead of Dex to attacks, the plan was to go crit monster. A bit more luck-based than straight dex to damage, but still fun. Save up for some keen kukris and go to town.

Hmmm... Just keep in mind that, while less optimal, a critical build is more awe/fear inducing. Rolling several dice is more impacting than adding a static bonus, specially for people who are not too familiar with the game's mechanics. Make sure your group won't be intimidated by this.

[WarKitty]

Fair point about inspirational boost/badge of valor. Probably remove song of the white raven in favor of them. So, level three plan, take inspirational boost as a spell known, and grab a wild cohort because eagle.