Kellus's Truenaming Re-Write: Anyone Actually Played This?

[CoolOhm]

Kellus's Truenaming Re-Write (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?90961-The-Way-Words-Work-%28or-Truenaming-that-doesn-t-make-me-cry-myself-to-sleep-at-night%29)

So I love the fluff behind truenaming, and and I like the crunch of this fix. I like the idea of absolute limit on utterances (though I feel the exact math may need to be tweaked before I can allow it in my pathfinder game).

However, after recently playing a Truenamer from this fix in an arena type game, and I think the various spell lists need to be re-arranged or rewritten. Simply put I found many utterances that effect enemies were simply not worth taking until the 3rd level utterances become available at level 7 (when Word of Stone and Word of Confusion Become available). Also most of the low level recitations are extremely situational, and since you get a very small number of them, it makes them feel useless. The result was the class was reduced to an Knowledge Encyclopedia, short duration buffer, and/or UMD-monkey much like the original Truenamer.



What do you guys think of Kellus's re-write?

Has anyone played this in a real 3.x or Pathfinder campaign?

[Coryen]

While I have not played the classes in question, I have run several campaigns with them in use. I did need to adapt things over time as time (and events in the campaign) necessitated changes in the rules to keep the game running smoothly, but overall it was a positive addition to the game.

I would highly recommend you playtest any rules with your group before implementing them in a campaign. Many of the classes and powers in Kellus' writeup can be campaign changing things. Necronomists, for example, are an amazingly versatile class, and the limits on truename magic are both simple, and complicated, to circumvent. Your group can help you spot exploits that might derail your game long before there is a game to derail.

Relying on skill checks are what make the system somewhat bad. Skill check ranges can vary, and items and spells that add to skill checks can swing character rolls from one play range to another in an instant. The skill checks either resulted in powerful results (I remember one player just spammed the negative energy attack power because it scaled well and was impossible to resist outside of being undead, and for those, he could hit them with positive energy!; and when he wasn't doing that, he was using heat metal on everything he could) or they were tedious checks that slowed the game to a crawl because we were new to Kellus' system and it meant twice as many checks and rules readings per round.

The only other issue is that while Kellus did Triple the amount of crunch compared to the ToM Writeup, it still seemed too little to use on its own. To be fair, its a Homebrew, no one is expecting a 300 page PDF with tons of material. However, It still felt incomplete, and it seemed like most of the classes had enough choices available to make maybe 2-3 substantially different characters.

If you think you can tweak the math to something between useless and overpowered, and you don't mind creating your own material when you need to expand on what is already there, then it works fine. As always, run some tests, consider campaign repercussions of things, and look at how the class can affect the playstyle of the game. If you are fine with those things, it should work out. I enjoyed his writeup, and it was probably better than the ToM version, but it has it's own issues too and like all things, may need to be adapted to fit into your current or future campaigns.

[Cloud]

I've never looked at it in much detail, though I've given it a quick scan and sent it to one of my players that loves the fluff of True Naming in the past. He...really didn't like it. Mostly because of a combination of this isn't 3.5 truenaming, and that the new mechanics didn't seem effective. On the first point yes 3.5 truenaming is terrible, but the player had the idea that you could fix the existing system with tweaks, not a massive overall, which mostly I agree with. On the latter point...the absolute limit is really, really low. Like even if it was 2 + Cha mod and worked retroactively I don't know if that would be high enough.

So yeah, it might be nice if you wanted a completely new take on truenaming, instead of tweaking the old truenaming, but even if you do that I feel that the absolute limit mechanic is rather poor. If no one knows the mechanics of ToM truenaming anyway, then using homebrew isn't anymore of a burden and I have a feeling that is nothing else Kellus's is more internally consistent than the mess of editing that is ToM, so there is that.

[CoolOhm]

I would highly recommend you playtest any rules with your group before implementing them in a campaign.
Oh definitely, in fact I should be a bit more clear that I have done a tiny bit of that.

In my first post I said I had run one in an Arena Game. I should have explained that this is basically my groups way of testing new classes or rules for combat centric classes. It is essentially a plot-less, once-off game (or twice-off) where your charters are gladiators. The whole point being you can quickly test the new class's mechanics against a continuous stream of monsters and traps to see if it functions well. In fact people usually level up several times during said game, just so we can test the class at multiple points. Sorry for not explaining that.



While I have not played the classes in question, I have run several campaigns with them in use. I did need to adapt things over time as time (and events in the campaign) necessitated changes in the rules to keep the game running smoothly, but overall it was a positive addition to the game.
Glad to know it at least kinda works. BTW, what were the main changes you had to make to keep things balanced?



The skill checks either resulted in powerful results (I remember one player just spammed the negative energy attack power because it scaled well and was impossible to resist outside of being undead, and for those, he could hit them with positive energy!; and when he wasn't doing that, he was using heat metal on everything he could)...

Wow really, even with the absolute limits in place? Yikes. What was your solution for the negative energy spam?



Relying on skill checks are what make the system somewhat bad. Skill check ranges can vary, and items and spells that add to skill checks can swing character rolls from one play range to another in an instant.

On the skill check issue, I think in Kellus's fix the only bonuses you can get to Truespeak was the language synergy bonus, and feats like skill focus, and a direct bonus from a class feature.


Truespeak (Int; Trained-Only)

[spoiler]Truespeak is an Intelligence-based skill primarily used in conjunction with truespeak effects (utterances, incantations, and recitations). However, it follows several special rules.

• A natural 20 on a Truespeak check is always a success (except for opposed Truespeak checks).
• A natural 1 on a Truespeak check is always a failure (except for opposed Truespeak checks).
• Truespeak cannot be improved with magic items, spells, item familiars, or masterwork tools.
• You can never take 10 or 20 on a Truespeak check.

I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious. Just pump your Int score through the roof, or maybe 1-level dip in Exemplar, or something?



The only other issue is that while Kellus did Triple the amount of crunch compared to the ToM Writeup, it still seemed too little to use on its own. To be fair, its a Homebrew, no one is expecting a 300 page PDF with tons of material. However, It still felt incomplete, and it seemed like most of the classes had enough choices available to make maybe 2-3 substantially different characters.

Yeah I got that feeling as well. Best I can figure more worthwhile spells would help, but I think that would only fix part of the problem.

[CoolOhm]

I've never looked at it in much detail, though I've given it a quick scan and sent it to one of my players that loves the fluff of True Naming in the past. He...really didn't like it. Mostly because of a combination of this isn't 3.5 truenaming, and that the new mechanics didn't seem effective. On the first point yes 3.5 truenaming is terrible, but the player had the idea that you could fix the existing system with tweaks, not a massive overall, which mostly I agree with. On the latter point...the absolute limit is really, really low. Like even if it was 2 + Cha mod and worked retroactively I don't know if that would be high enough.

Yeah I think the absolute limit is a bit low myself. From my experience it becomes an issue when you get to higher level an monster HP starts increasing much faster than the absolute limit does. I think it could work if you make a Truenamer as a kind of Finisher or Closer. Meaning the whole group wears down the the target, and then the Truenamer comes in for the knock-out blow with petrification or sleep or confusion or some other nasty effect. But that said, I still think absolute limits could be a bit higher, or just different scaling at higher levels. That said I only played the class for 2 sessions, so take that with a grain of salt.

Speaking of players not liking this fix, one of my players was mortified that it was based on current HP instead of Hit Dice. I think that is just because he like to play low HP classes like wizard though. So, while I am considering adding the system with some tweaks, I need see of the players want to O.K. the system as well (after all, the game is supposed to be fun for everyone).



So yeah, it might be nice if you wanted a completely new take on truenaming, instead of tweaking the old truenaming, but even if you do that I feel that the absolute limit mechanic is rather poor. If no one knows the mechanics of ToM truenaming anyway, then using homebrew isn't anymore of a burden and I have a feeling that is nothing else Kellus's is more internally consistent than the mess of editing that is ToM, so there is that.

I do want a completely new take on truenaming. I honestly tried the ToM one, and it is just basically unplayable without being a min-maxing munchkin. Which I suppose makes it a good solution for munchkin players (just tell them they can munchkinize as much as they want if they play a ToM Truenamer), but it seems a shame to waist such a awesome concept/fluff on that.