Does this Math Hold Up?

[Oddman80]

I came across this Tumblr post: The_charging_fighter-breaking_3.5 (http://ihititwithmyaxe.tumblr.com/post/5994449301/the-charging-fighter-breaking-3-5-d-d)

The overall build looks logical - but i am not sure if the math is correct. I know there are rules about stacking multipliers for crit hits (i.e., not actually doubling the multiplier, but in effect, just adding 1) so I wasn't sure if the stacking here was accurate.

In short, assuming a Str of 22 and a +1 Weapon:

Two-handed Damage = {weapon +1 magic + (str*1.5) + [(power attack*2)+leap attack]} x 2 valorous
= {2d4 + 1 + (6*1.5) + [(7*2)*2]} x 2
= (2d4 + 1 + 9 + 28) x 2
= 4d4+76

I think this is assuming a 7 pt. Power Attack (with 0 attack roll penalty from Shock Trooper) - That would result in a -9 to AC until the character's next turn, correct? Thanks.

[OldTrees1]

In short, assuming a Str of 22 and a +1 Weapon:

Two-handed Damage = {weapon +1 magic + (str*1.5) + [power attack*(1+twohanded+leap attack)]} x 2 valorous
= {2d4 + 1 + (6*1.5) + [7*3]} x 2
= (2d4 + 1 + 9 + 21) x 2
= 2d4x2+62

I think this is assuming a 7 pt. Power Attack (with 0 attack roll penalty from Shock Trooper) - That would result in a -9 to AC until the character's next turn, correct? Thanks.

2 errors:
1) Leap Attack is +100% power attack not +100% (twohanded boost to power attack + power attack)
2) 4d4 =/= 2d4*2 (average is the same but the range is not) I was mistaken see below

[Oddman80]

That makes more sense. I knew something seemed fishy. So the damage range on the combo is 66-78 (still not too shabby). Not the 80-92 claimed in the post. Thanks.
As a follow up question - is the 7 pt power attack an arbitrary number? If it results in a -9 penalty to AC for a full round, that would pretty much guarantee that attacks on you during the following round would hit.. So why even stop there? Couldn't you power attack with a number = your AC to maximize damage and make sure the thing you're attacking actually dies? With my whirling frenzy AC of 18, and STR of 22, I could do (2d4 * 2) + 128 = 132 - 144 damage off the charge, then add another 2d4 + 1 + 9 damage from the second attack whirling frenzy allows. Bringing the total first attack combo to a range of 144 - 162.
Sure.. You open yourself up to quite a beat down after by any remaining enemies... But hey, with a little planning from your teammates, you could mitigate that.

[OldTrees1]

As a follow up question - is the 7 pt power attack an arbitrary number? If it results in a -9 penalty to AC for a full round, that would pretty much guarantee that attacks on you during the following round would hit.. So why even stop there? Couldn't you power attack with a number = your AC to maximize damage and make sure the thing you're attacking actually dies?

Power Attack's penalty is limited by your BAB.

However you are correct that the tactic described is:
Use maximum power attack to kill as many of your foes as possible to reduce the chance that one of them survives to kill you on their turn (now that you made it so easy for them)

Personally I do not like the tactic because Shocktrooper is voluntarily taking a non Rocket Tag encounter and turning it into a Rocket Tag encounter. You deal excessive damage by penalizing your AC which lets your enemies deal excessive damage for no penalty(since your penalty to AC offsets their penalty to Attack). Rocket Tag is unfavorable to PCs (since they need to survive each encounter rather than merely 1 encounter).

[Crake]

Doesnt leap attack say +100% of your normal power attack damage? When two handing you deal 2 damage per point sacrificed. Thats not a multiplier, its a base rate. So when you leap attack, it should be +100% of 2:1 which is 4:1?

Edit: Just looked at the leap attack feat, it's pretty clear in the text that two handing with leap attack is 3:1, nvm

[Piggy Knowles]

2) 4d4 =/= 2d4*2 (average is the same but the range is not)

Actually, D&D math is wonky, and DOES say that you actually roll your base weapon damage again, rather than simply multiplying it:


Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

(Emphasis mine.)

Anyhow, this is actually fairly tame as far as chargers go. Damage multipliers are pretty ridiculous that way. For example, let's take the following level 6 build:


Frostblood Orc, Barbarian 1/Ranger 3/Fighter 2

1. Barbarian1- Power Attack
2. Ranger1- Track
3. Ranger2- TWF/Rapid Shot, Extra Rage
4. Ranger3- Headlong Rush
5. Fighter1- Improved Bull Rush
6. Fighter2- Leap Attack, Shock Trooper

ACFs: Whirling Frenzy, Lion Spirit Totem

So this build is level 6, as opposed to level 7. Assuming a starting strength of 18 and assuming no magic items - just a nonmagical greatsword - he's swinging for three attacks, each dealing 4d6+60 points of damage. That's also taking the more conservative Leap Attack calculation into effect (ie, that Leap Attack essentially makes Power Attack give a 3:1 return, rather than a 4:1 return), and assuming no favored enemy bonuses. Add in a +1 valorous greatsword and 4:1 Leap Attack returns, like the original build, and this leapfrogs to 6d6+111 points of damage per swing, with a great attack bonus and three attacks per round.

So yeah, charging and damage multiplication is nuts. I'd argue that it doesn't necessarily break D&D 3.5, as the linked post proclaims, though.

[Oddman80]

For example, let's take the following level 6 build:

Frostblood Orc, Barbarian 1/Ranger 3/Fighter 2

1. Barbarian1- Power Attack
2. Ranger1- Track
3. Ranger2- TWF/Rapid Shot, Extra Rage
4. Ranger3- Headlong Rush
5. Fighter1- Improved Bull Rush
6. Fighter2- Leap Attack, Shock Trooper

ACFs: Whirling Frenzy, Lion Spirit Totem[/spoiler]

...Assuming a starting strength of 18 and assuming no magic items - just a nonmagical greatsword - he's swinging for three attacks, each dealing 4d6+60 points of damage. That's assuming no favored enemy bonuses. Add in a +1 valorous greatsword and 4:1 Leap Attack returns, like the original build, and this leapfrogs to 6d6+111 points of damage per swing, with a great attack bonus and three attacks per round.
.

How the... HOW?!?

I don't get that build at all. I see the Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper combo shared by the original build - but those numbers only work on the original charge attack, not on any extra attacks during the round. Assuming 1 extra swing for Whirling frenzy, and that you are in a state of frenzy at the time of the power attack, i see where you would get a second swing from, but it would be standard power attack, not a leap attack, as you couldn't back up and charge again.

Where is the third swing coming from? What are the Ranger levels doing for me. Rapid shot doesn't apply as the greatsword isn't a ranged weapon, TWF doesn't apply as the greatsword is a two-handed melee weapon, and its not like you have Monkey Grip, or something allowing you to wield it one handed... Are you calling for an extra attack based on a BaB of +6/+1? wouldn't that only come at the 6th class level, not just 6th character level? Even then, the 3rd attack would be a +1 BaB, not the highter +6.

Am I missing something?

[OldTrees1]

How the... HOW?!?
-snip-
Am I missing something?

BAB +6 gives 2 swings on a full attack (one at a -5 penalty) regardless of multiclassing. With Whirling Frenzy that is 3 attacks.
Pounce lets you do a full attack as part of the charge action

You might also have noticed the Headlong Charge feat replacing the Valorous enchantment at the cost of provoking attacks from any enemy that can reach your path. I would not recommend this since it can negate your charge.

[Oddman80]

BAB +6 gives 2 swings on a full attack (one at a -5 penalty) regardless of multiclassing.

Ok - So the second attack has a BaB of +1, so the Power Attack while using it, would be significantly smaller. You would only have STR mod +1 max to use with a 1.5x multiplier (Two Handed Weapon Power Attack / No Leap Attack).

The Third attack is back up to the STR mod +6 max, but also would be with a 1.5 multiplier as you still can't do leap attack.

Are there relevant feats that stack with the second & third blows to increase the damage of those?

[OldTrees1]

Ok - So the second attack has a BaB of +1, so the Power Attack while using it, would be significantly smaller. You would only have STR mod +1 max to use with a 1.5x multiplier (Two Handed Weapon Power Attack / No Leap Attack).

The Third attack is back up to the STR mod +6 max, but also would be with a 1.5 multiplier as you still can't do leap attack.

Are there relevant feats that stack with the second & third blows to increase the damage of those?

The second attack has a BAB of +6 and an iteriative penalty of -5.

Leap Attack modifies the Charge action (including all 3 attacks of the Full Attack that Pounce is granting at the end of the movement). So everything that is augmenting the first attack is also augmenting the second and third attacks.

[Oddman80]

Leap Attack modifies the Charge action (including all 3 attacks of the Full Attack that Pounce is granting at the end of the movement). So everything that is augmenting the first attack is also augmenting the second and third attacks.

Really!?!? Wow... Ok... I have some things to think about.

Does the Ranger Class actually help with any of this? I wouldn't mind taking a few levels of Ranger in order to get an animal companion - they just seem fun and useful... but besides that, the fighter seems like it could do all of that on its own, no?

[Piggy Knowles]

Ranger is just there for feat timing - frostblood orc plus ranger lets you pick up Headlong Rush at 4, which would otherwise be impossible to fit in by 6th level (as neither it nor Leap Attack are fighter feats).

That said, the skills, out of combat utility and access to the ranger spell list certainly don't hurt.

[lsfreak]

That said, the skills, out of combat utility and access to the ranger spell list certainly don't hurt.

Also if your DM allows such things, chaos shuffling out track, rapid shot and/or endurance for extra, useful feats (though at a very hefty cost this early). Battle jump could double the damage again, if your DM rules it works with Leap Attack (it's a pretty contentious feat though). Even without that there's plenty of other useful feats: more rages, martial stances, Intimidating Rage + Imperious Command for keeping someone cowering while you mop up their friends, etc.

[OldTrees1]

Also if your DM allows such things, chaos shuffling out track, rapid shot and/or endurance for extra, useful feats (though at a very hefty cost this early).

Warning. Some of the Ranger class features are not actual feats. Combat Style cannot be shuffled away since it merely treats you as having a feat rather than giving you a feat.

[Oddman80]

Warning. Some of the Ranger class features are not actual feats. Combat Style cannot be shuffled away since it merely treats you as having a feat rather than giving you a feat.

I saw that when I read about ranger features - but as long as the ranger is one of my classes, i will be able use those abilities, right? What do you mean "Combat Style cannot be shuffled away..."?

[lsfreak]

I saw that when I read about ranger features - but as long as the ranger is one of my classes, i will be able use those abilities, right? What do you mean "Combat Style cannot be shuffled away..."?

Yes you can use them.

Chaos shuffling involves trading your feats away using Embrace the Dark Chaos (trade any feat you have for an Abyssal Heritor feat) and Shun the Dark Chaos (trade any Abyssal Heritor feat for any feat you can learn) to take a worthless feat and turn it into something useful, and I spaced off that Combat Style doesn't actually grant the feats. Note that even DMs that allow it usually have some kind of restrictions on which feats can be traded away (feats from classes, feats from races, feats from worshiping Elder Evils, etc).

[OldTrees1]

I spaced off that Combat Style doesn't actually grant the feats.

I only remembered because I remain confused at why they were made that way in the first place. :smallsmile: