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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class A bit of paladin brew [3.5] PEACH



Teapot Salty
2014-04-02, 11:28 PM
Hey guys. A buddy of mine wanted to run a samurai character. After running through choices of classes, we decided on paladin. I wanted to make paladin fit better to the samurai style, so I changed the following things:

Lose the mount. (I hate on that thing a lot) I know samurai rode into battle and where mounted warriors, but we were both thinking stereotypical foot soldier, master swordsman.

Lose spellcasting: This was just me being nice. (sorta) We brewed a race that gets negatives to wis, and this made me feel better about the buffs I gave it.

Smite changes: Smite targets anything! No matter what that will not change, no matter what I brew (lets watch it change in a year or something) I am adamant about that. Also, now it adds paladin level to attack rolls, and your charisma modifier x your paladin level on damage rolls. And the uses per day are changed to uses per encounter.

Heroic Stand: An ability inspired from PF and the barbarians rage. You get it at level 1, and it gets more powerful at levels: 5, 10, 15 and 20. A number of times per day equal to your charisma modifier you may make a heroic stand. The stand lasts for 2+your cha modifier rounds. While in the stand you gain a bonus to damage rolls equal to your cha modifier, a bonus to str equal to your str modifier, a bonus to ac and attack rolls equal to your dex modifier and temporary hit point equal to your con modifier. At level 5 all bonuses are equal to x2 of their respective modifiers, at level 10 it's x3, at 15 it's x4 and 20 it's x5.

That's it. What do you guys think? Does it fit the flavor? Any advice? And as always, go nuts.

Composer99
2014-04-03, 12:29 AM
I'm not sure the paladin re-brewed makes for a very good samurai, on general principles.

The paladin takes the stereotype of the chivalric knight of European Christendom and turns it up to 11, throwing in some supernatural religious powers.

IMO the samurai, as a D&D class, ought to roughly do the same to the stereotype of the historical samurai: turn it up to 11, and throw in some cool abilities that verge on (or simply are) supernatural.

So, generally, it seems to me that this re-branding is a bit of a misfit. Why keep lay on hands and remove disease, say, but ditch spellcasting? Why keep divine grace and immunity to disease, which are explicitly described as gifts from paladins' divine patrons? Why keep turn undead?

Some features that do cross over well are the auras. And your re-worked smite (which is well and good if re-branded for samurai, but "smite anything" IMO runs contrary to the paladin concept).

Changing smite to per-encounter is good. The change to damage output might make it a bit bloated at higher levels, but it's hardly over-powered when stacked up against time stop or shapechange.

Heroic stand is an interesting concept, but I don't know that it's worth cutting out both spellcasting and the special mount for. As written, it also explicitly MAD-ifies the character, who needs to have high Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, and Charisma to benefit from it. It's also convoluted. You add your own Strength modifier to your Strength score (affecting attack and damage rolls) and you add your Dexterity modifier to AC (again?) and attack rolls? And then you have to multiply all these different things as you gain levels?

As a final general comment, the way you have re-worked the class gives it more number output: more damage, and better attack rolls. Well and good. But it doesn't really make the class better. It doesn't get to do any more interesting things - in fact, by ditching spellcasting and the special mount you have taken interesting things away from the class (a situation that is exacerbated if you are playing with non-Core material), the remaining class features mostly don't fit the samurai concept, and except for raw damage output the class is basically weaker than the paladin.

To improve the concept, I would suggest:

Stripping away all paladin class features that don't fit the notion of a samurai (or coming up with examples of samurai for whom the paladin class features fit).
Bring back the special mount, modified to taste, and if you personally don't like mounts, come up with some alternate class features that can replace it.
Re-work heroic stand so it doesn't key off 4 separate ability scores. I would suggest making it either use static numbers to improve certain ability scores and defences (like how barbarian's rage boosts Strength, Constitution, and Will save) or key off Charisma for its effects (e.g. adding Charisma modifier to attacks, damage, AC, saves, etc.) and using Constitution to determine how long it lasts. Also maybe change how many times of day you can use it to 1 + applicable ability score modifier.
Root through some Japanese folklore, manga & anime, and films for samurai special abilities that could be turned into class features. Or look for samurai fixes on this forum or other RPG fora and shamelessly nick their stuff.

toapat
2014-04-03, 11:35 PM
The only think you can take from paladin for a samurai is the chassis.

The problem is, You presented us with the end and none of the material needed to convey what your player wanted, you done this in basically every topic ive seen you post. with my paladin thats fine, the class is intended to see play for myself and was based on my own research. here? you are presenting ideas without anything for people to grab and work with.

Composer actually presented an interesting idea but a realistically bad one: That is, that you would work to create the class equivalent of the physical Incarnation of Bushido. But researching it over the last hour pretty much shows this to be. Bushido is, in summary, a more formal but less yielding code Similar to rights and intentions of modern day Power of Attorney. For all intents and purposes, the Exemplar of Bushido is the Thayan Knight (Google it)


As to changes:
Your smite changes are horrid. They are intended to present the idea of Iajutsu strikes. which are covered by the Iajutsu focus skill.

Heroic stand is broken, at first level it triggers an infinite loop for anyone with 14+ strength.


See how your player would react to being given the expert from this for his character (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm), with 11 skills to choose from and Iajutsu Focus (Google it, should be the first result)

The Dragon
2014-04-04, 07:40 AM
I can see why you have smite instead of giving them iajutsu focus as a class skill; It is an extremely wonky mechanic, and is hidden away in an extremely obscure sourcebook.

The smite math is off however; Attack bonuses don't need to scale to be relevant at higher levels. +1 to hit is just as important at level one as at level 20, that is to say, not very much so, and +20 will probably make any attack an auto-hit.

I suggest letting it work off charisma, or making it a flat to hit bonus.
Cha means that it will be ~ +2 to +3 at level 1, ~ +3 to +5 and ~ +5 to +8 at level 20. This means that it scales from a +15% to +35% over twenty levels. A high level smite is more likely to cause a hit than a low level smite, but only by a factor of two to four. Your version makes it more likely to cause a hit by a factor of twenty over twenty levels, not accounting for the limits of the d20, which I think is somewhat excessive.

A flat +5 bonus would be a middle ground, adding +25% chance to hit, but doesn't scale, obviously. I don't think it needs to, either.

+120 damage at level twenty on an attack that hits 95% of the time is probably too much, but by then the wizard is creating demiplanes, so no-one really cares.

While I abhor the complete warrior samurai, I find the fear aspect interesting, although very poorly implemented. Perhaps give them imperius command and dreadful wrath, and let dreadful wrath function off smites.

Teapot Salty
2014-04-04, 10:37 AM
The only think you can take from paladin for a samurai is the chassis.

The problem is, You presented us with the end and none of the material needed to convey what your player wanted, you done this in basically every topic ive seen you post. with my paladin thats fine, the class is intended to see play for myself and was based on my own research. here? you are presenting ideas without anything for people to grab and work with.

Composer actually presented an interesting idea but a realistically bad one: That is, that you would work to create the class equivalent of the physical Incarnation of Bushido. But researching it over the last hour pretty much shows this to be. Bushido is, in summary, a more formal but less yielding code Similar to rights and intentions of modern day Power of Attorney. For all intents and purposes, the Exemplar of Bushido is the Thayan Knight (Google it)


As to changes:
Your smite changes are horrid. They are intended to present the idea of Iajutsu strikes. which are covered by the Iajutsu focus skill.

Heroic stand is broken, at first level it triggers an infinite loop for anyone with 14+ strength.


See how your player would react to being given the expert from this for his character (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm), with 11 skills to choose from and Iajutsu Focus (Google it, should be the first result)

First and foremost, can you please explain how it triggers the infinite loop? Also, thanks for pointing out the "mean to an end" thing, I'll defiantly try to remember it in the future.

toapat
2014-04-04, 11:01 AM
First and foremost, can you please explain how it triggers the infinite loop? Also, thanks for pointing out the "mean to an end" thing, I'll defiantly try to remember it in the future.

Heroic stance is actively determined by your strength modifier, once triggered it just keeps stacking your strength because it has no fixed value.

Teapot Salty
2014-04-04, 11:45 AM
Heroic stance is actively determined by your strength modifier, once triggered it just keeps stacking your strength because it has no fixed value.
It's determined by your charisma.

toapat
2014-04-04, 11:53 AM
It's determined by your charisma.

no, the Cha bonus is determined by the Cha, the STR bonus is determined by the STR.

Cloud
2014-04-04, 12:25 PM
...Right, what's being said on Heroic Stand is that it's recursive because of how it's worded (my strength increases by my strength mod, oh look my strength is higher. Wait my modifier is higher, so...). I personally don't think it's actually recursive from how it's written, but I can see the argument as to why. To make it super clear, you could always go;
"You gain a sacred (or whatever, but I'd type it) bonus to your Strength score equal to your Strength modifier at the time of starting a heroic stand. Changes to your Strength score during a Heroic Stand do not retroactively change this bonus."
That being said, I think increasing an attribute by it's modifier is a fairly clunky mechanic. Can't you just word it to add your strength modifier to the things that matter about strength, i.e. attack and damage rolls. You don't really need to be better at carrying things while making a heroic stand I feel.

Basically everything toapat said about Smite is right, it's odd that's it's level to the attack roll, and a modifier that can change a lot multiplied by level could possibly lead to some...interesting, results. If I full attack with haste on or a speed weapon at level 20, 5 * 8-12 * 20 is quite possibly a little extreme. I mean it's only damage but still, doing 800 damage at the low end of charisma before power attack, strength, weapon, etc. is a bit...yeah. If you can add in pounce and a way to multiple damage on the charge...ouch.

Flavour wise a heroic stand doesn't feel very heroic if I use it every single fight for free stats, *shrugs*.

Overall this doesn't so much feel like a Samurai as just a Paladin with any utility granted by spells gone to just add more numbers to the areas they probably didn't need help in.

Composer99
2014-04-04, 12:31 PM
The wording of "Heroic Stand" from the OP (as of this writing) is:


Heroic Stand: An ability inspired from PF and the barbarians rage. You get it at level 1, and it gets more powerful at levels: 5, 10, 15 and 20. A number of times per day equal to your charisma modifier you may make a heroic stand. The stand lasts for 2+your cha modifier rounds. While in the stand you gain a bonus to damage rolls equal to your cha modifier, a bonus to str equal to your str modifier, a bonus to ac and attack rolls equal to your dex modifier and temporary hit point equal to your con modifier. At level 5 all bonuses are equal to x2 of their respective modifiers, at level 10 it's x3, at 15 it's x4 and 20 it's x5.

Strength modifies:
- your Strength score ("a bonus to str equal to your str modifier")

Dexterity modifies:
- bonus to AC
- bonus to attack rolls

Constitution modifies:
- temporary hit points

Charisma modifies:
- number of times per day you can use this ability
- duration of effect
- bonus to damage rolls

Drako_Beoulve
2014-04-04, 01:55 PM
No, just don't.......

Paladin and Samurai have similar moral guidelines: Code of Honor and Bushido, aside of that, the two classes are completely different. Paladins Seek Justice, castigate evilness and offers Protection to innocent people and are Inspired by their Deity, in the other hand, Samurais follows their Master's orders and execute it without failing or fall in dishonor. Paladin features are gifts from his Deity and Samurai features comes from the Martial Art discipline they perform.

Composer99 is right, you need to swallow some samurai Folklore to come up with some cool features like Kenjutsu (Sword Art) or Iaijutsu, inclusive some stuff with Bows, etc.

Also you can use the crappy samurai class fix I have on my signature (I'm currently create a new rewrite for Samurais)

Teapot Salty
2014-04-05, 10:21 AM
no, the Cha bonus is determined by the Cha, the STR bonus is determined by the STR.

Oh, sorry, I thought you meant heroic stand as a whole, not just the str, I got confused cause of the wording.

Andion Isurand
2014-04-06, 03:04 PM
I would consider making a martial adept class, that uses maneuvers in the same manner as a Warblade or Swordsage... or just make your own martial discipline.

Amnoriath
2014-04-06, 08:18 PM
Smite changes: Smite targets anything! No matter what that will not change, no matter what I brew (lets watch it change in a year or something) I am adamant about that. Also, now it adds paladin level to attack rolls, and your charisma modifier x your paladin level on damage rolls. And the uses per day are changed to uses per encounter.

Heroic Stand: An ability inspired from PF and the barbarians rage. You get it at level 1, and it gets more powerful at levels: 5, 10, 15 and 20. A number of times per day equal to your charisma modifier you may make a heroic stand. The stand lasts for 2+your cha modifier rounds. While in the stand you gain a bonus to damage rolls equal to your cha modifier, a bonus to str equal to your str modifier, a bonus to ac and attack rolls equal to your dex modifier and temporary hit point equal to your con modifier. At level 5 all bonuses are equal to x2 of their respective modifiers, at level 10 it's x3, at 15 it's x4 and 20 it's x5.

That's it. What do you guys think? Does it fit the flavor? Any advice? And as always, go nuts.
1. No, not only is class level to attack rolls is automatic Ubercharger damage without the charge you are going to add at least another 100+ damage an attack. If you are familiar with Incarnum and a Psionic race you could full attack these smites.
2. More numbers creeping which can equal a +30.
Teapot Salty, you really need to think about the flavor of a class, especially outside of battle. What does a samurai do? Remember you took out 4 levels of spells so not only can you change these current features you can add three more.