Captain Marvel versus Wonder Woman

[Shinken]

So, considering the current incarnations of both heroines, who would win a fight, Carol or Diana?

[Ranxerox]

Diana of Themyscira

[Metahuman1]

I like Carol, I really, really do, (She's one of the very few people that backed Stark during Civil War that I've found myself forgiving.), but I've gotta give this one to Wonder Woman.

New 52 she's Canonically had what, 1,000 years or more of training in combat, with the baseline assumption she will have her powers? And some of that training was from Aries himself to boot. So she wins that department unless the current incarnations feats of raw speed/power/durability leave some kind of insurmountable gap by the numbers that I'm not aware of?

[Chen]

Wikipedia has Wonder Woman as able to travel at half the speed of light whereas it mentions Carol as able to move at half the speed of sound. Since the thread mentions captain Marvel rather than Binary, Carol doesn't seem to stand a chance since Wonder Woman is so much faster.

[Metahuman1]

What about brute strength, durability, stamina feats? In the interests of being fair to Carol, is there a way she could maybe Rope A Dope her way into a win? Or end it on the first hit because Diana doesn't have a reason to think that it's literally make or break to dodge everything thrown at her by this particular opponent?

I know, I'm reaching based on that speed gap, but just to make sure all possible bases are covered.

[BRC]

Probably not, Marvel characters tend to hover at a lower power level than DC's, and Carol dosn't usually one-shot super-durable opponents anyway.

[TheThan]

Probably not, Marvel characters tend to hover at a lower power level than DC's, and Carol dosn't usually one-shot super-durable opponents anyway.

that's the disconnect right there.
DC's major heroes are usually at the top end of their universe's power spectrum, where Marvel's major heroes are not at the top of their universe's power spectrum.

the top end of both universes are mostly even in capability. The problem is that a lot of those characters (particularly in marvel) are not exactly A list characters. So we have the problem of matching up two A list heroes that are starting at two different levels.

its like taking a (stock) ford mustang and trying to race a Nascar stock car, the stock car is going to out preform it.

[Shinken]

Wikipedia has Wonder Woman as able to travel at half the speed of light whereas it mentions Carol as able to move at half the speed of sound. Since the thread mentions captain Marvel rather than Binary, Carol doesn't seem to stand a chance since Wonder Woman is so much faster.
That's one of the reasons why I specified New 52 Wonder Woman. She doesn't move anywhere near that speed. The whole Wonder Woman plot has her running around the globe, if she did move that fast the series would be over in issue #2.


Probably not, Marvel characters tend to hover at a lower power level than DC's, and Carol dosn't usually one-shot super-durable opponents anyway.
That was probably true pre-reboot, but everyone at DC is a lot weaker in New 52. Except for the Flash, I think, but no one writes him as powerful as he really is anyway.

I think it's an even match and it could go either way. Their strength and endurance levels seem similar enough to me, Diana is a more skilled fighter, but Carol is a more skilled flyer. Both have their power ups - Diana can remove her bracelets (going Full (demi)God Mode) and Carol can absorb energy (going Full (almost)Binary Mode).

[BRC]

That's one of the reasons why I specified New 52 Wonder Woman. She doesn't move anywhere near that speed. The whole Wonder Woman plot has her running around the globe, if she did move that fast the series would be over in issue #2.


That was probably true pre-reboot, but everyone at DC is a lot weaker in New 52.

I don't know about Nu52 Wonder Woman.

In terms of feats of pure strength, we did get Carol lifting a subway car out of a sinkhole at one point. I think that's the best metric we're going to get in terms of straight power. Not super sure about good metrics for durability, or the strength of her fists/energy blasts.

[Metahuman1]

that's the disconnect right there.
DC's major heroes are usually at the top end of their universe's power spectrum, where Marvel's major heroes are not at the top of their universe's power spectrum.

the top end of both universes are mostly even in capability. The problem is that a lot of those characters (particularly in marvel) are not exactly A list characters. So we have the problem of matching up two A list heroes that are starting at two different levels.

its like taking a (stock) ford mustang and trying to race a Nascar stock car, the stock car is going to out preform it.

What bugs me is I use to get Marvel Zombies (the fans that only bought marvel comics, not the event itself.), who'd try to tell me that characters like Superman and Green Lantern and Flash are OP Mary Sues, and then in the same sentence would prattle on about how all these marvel cosmic characters or how Thor or Hulk could total them cause there scrubs.

Anyway, does Wikipedia have entry's for her powers post New 52 yet? The way they did for Pre-Post Crises on Infinite Earths?

[Shinken]

What bugs me is I use to get Marvel Zombies (the fans that only bought marvel comics, not the event itself.), who'd try to tell me that characters like Superman and Green Lantern and Flash are OP Mary Sues, and then in the same sentence would prattle on about how all these marvel cosmic characters or how Thor or Hulk could total them cause there scrubs.

Anyway, does Wikipedia have entry's for her powers post New 52 yet? The way they did for Pre-Post Crises on Infinite Earths?

No, mostly because they are not as defined. She couldn't fly in her main title, then they showed her flying in Justice League, then she learned to fly. Diana's power level is still huge and she always looks badass, but there are no exaggerations like someone saying she moves at the speed of light when she is clearly not that fast.

[BRC]

No, mostly because they are not as defined. She couldn't fly in her main title, then they showed her flying in Justice League, then she learned to fly. Diana's power level is still huge and she always looks badass, but there are no exaggerations like someone saying she moves at the speed of light when she is clearly not that fast.

Also, a lot of the time there's some big Feat that the hero pulled off once that everybody uses as a metric.
Okay, by "The Hero" I mean Superman, and either "Flying so fast around the earth he goes back in time" or "Pulling the Earth into a different orbit".
But that alone does a decent job of skewing the DCU's power level.
Superman one pulled the earth into a different orbit, therefore Superman is X strong.
Wonder Woman is usually portrayed as being about at Superman's level, therefore Wonder Woman is approximately X Strong.

This villain once traded blows with Superman, Wonder Woman was also able to take out this villain, ect ect.

I'm sure somebody could pull out similar examples from Marvel (The Hulk once threw rhode island into space, Tony Stark's armor can survive a hit from the Hulk, therefore ect ect), but with DC it's a bit more well-known.

[Shinken]

Also, a lot of the time there's some big Feat that the hero pulled off once that everybody uses as a metric.
Okay, by "The Hero" I mean Superman, and either "Flying so fast around the earth he goes back in time" or "Pulling the Earth into a different orbit".
But that alone does a decent job of skewing the DCU's power level.
Superman one pulled the earth into a different orbit, therefore Superman is X strong.
Wonder Woman is usually portrayed as being about at Superman's level, therefore Wonder Woman is approximately X Strong.

This villain once traded blows with Superman, Wonder Woman was also able to take out this villain, ect ect.

I'm sure somebody could pull out similar examples from Marvel (The Hulk once threw rhode island into space, Tony Stark's armor can survive a hit from the Hulk, therefore ect ect), but with DC it's a bit more well-known.

Marvel is actually a lot more consistent in that front. Hulk, for example, has explicitly variable strength. They also hammer the point one of when something extraordinary happens - Spider-Man defeated Firelord, but that was a one in a million thing.
This reminds me of something that I see a lot on Vs threads - people think character X will win 100% of the time, when that kind of thing should be extremely rare. Can Nightwing beat Batman? Of course, it's just a lot more likely that Batman beats him. For Diana vs Carol, I think it's 50/50. I forgot to mention the energy blasts, that is another thing in Carol's favor, but I'm still going with 50/50 if they fight without power ups. If Carol can manage to absorb Diana's godly energy, she gets an edge, but I'm not sure if she can do that. I'm still stuck in a tie here.

[Giggling Ghast]

Shazam ... sorry, Captain Thunder ... fights Wonder Woman in the animated movie Justice League: The Flashpoint Paradox. She wins.

He loses when Wonder Woman uses her golden lasso to force him to say "Shazam", reverting him to Billy Batson and his friends. (This version of Shazam is a Fusion Dance (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FusionDance)-type hero.) She then kills Billy.

[Metahuman1]

That is unfortunately not helpful, as the Animated series/universes/movies typically run on different power scales, and the flash point paradox's universe was an else world anyway.


And yes, there consistent, until they get cosmic, and then it's just what ever that writer wants to do at the moment, which is how one minute Thanos is a universe level threat and then another time we see him he's getting soloed by Squirrel Girl.


And come to think of it regarding Carols energy blasts, on top of a speed advantage and the bracelets, doesn't Diana also have lighting in the New 52 as part of being Zeus's child?

[Tanuki Tales]

How is Nu52 Diana compared to the other JLA big dogs, by the by? Because, if memory serves, Flash is still massively FTL, Superman is still some degree of FTL or at the least lightspeed and J'onn should be hanging with either one of them. If Diana can fight any of those three guys even halfway serious, she should stomp Carol.

Like I believe I mentioned in that GoG thread, a heavy hitter Carol is not.

[leafman]

Shazam ... sorry, Captain Thunder ... fights Wonder Woman in the animated movie Justice League: The Flashpoint Paradox. She wins.

He loses when Wonder Woman uses her golden lasso to force him to say "Shazam", reverting him to Billy Batson and his friends. (This version of Shazam is a Fusion Dance (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FusionDance)-type hero.) She then kills Billy.

Wrong Captain Marvel, you're thinking of DC's Captain, this thread is about Marvel's Carol Danvers. It's ok, I wasn't sure when I read the thread title either.

I don't really have a point of reference for New 52 Diana, but since she still hangs out with the other big guns of DC, I think she'd win. The power scale between the two just doesn't line up. It might not be a one punch blowout, but still it would be a fairly lopsided fight.

[Jayngfet]

that's the disconnect right there.
DC's major heroes are usually at the top end of their universe's power spectrum, where Marvel's major heroes are not at the top of their universe's power spectrum.

the top end of both universes are mostly even in capability. The problem is that a lot of those characters (particularly in marvel) are not exactly A list characters. So we have the problem of matching up two A list heroes that are starting at two different levels.

its like taking a (stock) ford mustang and trying to race a Nascar stock car, the stock car is going to out preform it.

Eh. DC hereos aren't so much at the top of their scale so much as the scale runs bigger. A Marvel cosmic hero will go tromping around the galaxy, while a DC will tromp around the Universe, for example. DC heroes are built on fundamentally different principles from fundamentally different baseline eras. It's less a mustang vs a stock car and more like two different types of racing car on two different races. That stock car is good on it's own track, but good luck having it win a rally that's thousands of miles through barely working backroads.

A straight punch up is always going to go into a DC Hero's favor. There are plenty of ways marvel hero's can actually win, but they don't come up nearly as often because everyone always goes to a punch up first.

[Shinken]

How is Nu52 Diana compared to the other JLA big dogs, by the by? Because, if memory serves, Flash is still massively FTL, Superman is still some degree of FTL or at the least lightspeed and J'onn should be hanging with either one of them. If Diana can fight any of those three guys even halfway serious, she should stomp Carol.

Like I believe I mentioned in that GoG thread, a heavy hitter Carol is not.

I doubt New 52 Superman is that fast. He is not connected to the speed force and he gets injured by grenades. J'onn is not part of Diana's Justice League and it is implied that he is stronger than all of them put together. The power dynamic is simply not the same in New 52.


That is unfortunately not helpful, as the Animated series/universes/movies typically run on different power scales, and the flash point paradox's universe was an else world anyway.
And also not being the same Captain Marvel. :smalltongue:



And yes, there consistent, until they get cosmic, and then it's just what ever that writer wants to do at the moment, which is how one minute Thanos is a universe level threat and then another time we see him he's getting soloed by Squirrel Girl.
Squirrel Girl solo-ing powerful villains is a running gag. It's just a joke. It's not meant to be taken even halfway seriously.


And come to think of it regarding Carols energy blasts, on top of a speed advantage and the bracelets, doesn't Diana also have lighting in the New 52 as part of being Zeus's child?
Zeus' lightning is part of Diana's power up, when she removes her bracelets. If anything, it's a disadvantage for her, because it's something Carol can explicitly absorb.

[ben-zayb]

Wrong Captain Marvel, you're thinking of DC's Captain, this thread is about Marvel's Carol Danvers. It's ok, I wasn't sure when I read the thread title either.Title's still a bit misleading. Captain Marvel could be anyone from the original Mar-Vell, to Genis-Vell or Phylla-Vell, to the most recent Ms. Marvel.

What are Ms. Marvel's best feats anyway? As already said, while Nu52 depowered DC's heroes, it still a long way to go especially considering Diana is part of the main crew.

[Tanuki Tales]

I doubt New 52 Superman is that fast. He is not connected to the speed force and he gets injured by grenades. J'onn is not part of Diana's Justice League and it is implied that he is stronger than all of them put together. The power dynamic is simply not the same in New 52.

Superman still reacts and acts in the time frame of nanoseconds in New 52. That's at least light speed, if not FTL, if I'm remembering my math correctly. He's not Flash fast, who reacts in freaking Femtoseconds, but its still faster than anyone from Marvel who isn't Thor or Silver Surfer level.

[ben-zayb]

Actually, Supe's doesn't have that much good feats in Nu52 compared to DianaI'm not a fan of Supes. Diana beat up a goddess, among other things.

other Nu52 WW feats (http://www.comicvine.com/wonder-woman/4005-2048/forums/new-52-wonder-woman-respect-thread-672635/#12/)

[Shinken]

Title's still a bit misleading. Captain Marvel could be anyone from the original Mar-Vell, to Genis-Vell or Phylla-Vell, to the most recent Ms. Marvel.
The OP specifies Carol for that exact reason.
You also missed Monica Rambeau.

[Metahuman1]

So, yeah, I'm seeing a lot of fighting gods to a stand still/getting the upper hand on gods/actually defeating gods. So, unless someone want's to show me that Olympians in New 52 are lower Tier then Asguardians/Olympians in Marvel U but a significant amount, I'd say that pretty much clenches it against Carol at this point. I love her and she's not to be underestimated, but her present power level doesn't even hold a candle to Thor in a straight fight, and the indications are that New 52 Diana could if not beat him certainly give him a serious run for his money.

[SaintRidley]

So, yeah, I'm seeing a lot of fighting gods to a stand still/getting the upper hand on gods/actually defeating gods. So, unless someone want's to show me that Olympians in New 52 are lower Tier then Asguardians/Olympians in Marvel U but a significant amount, I'd say that pretty much clenches it against Carol at this point. I love her and she's not to be underestimated, but her present power level doesn't even hold a candle to Thor in a straight fight, and the indications are that New 52 Diana could if not beat him certainly give him a serious run for his money.

Or become the ultimate mythologic power couple.

But yeah, Carol's good, but completely different scales of power here. I'd say 8 or 9 times out of 10 she loses, with a decent margin for possible success if things go right. She's no slouch, but in a straight fight nothing doing.

[Metahuman1]

Don't tell me that first part, I'm still getting over them turning Superman and Wonder Woman into a Power Couple just to do it.

Now, here's a curiosity now that I'm looking at the fact that New Diana is evidently low-mid god tier, how does she stack up in a fight vs Carol as Binary. When she really was a Cosmic Caliber character?

[Tanuki Tales]

So, yeah, I'm seeing a lot of fighting gods to a stand still/getting the upper hand on gods/actually defeating gods. So, unless someone want's to show me that Olympians in New 52 are lower Tier then Asguardians/Olympians in Marvel U but a significant amount, I'd say that pretty much clenches it against Carol at this point. I love her and she's not to be underestimated, but her present power level doesn't even hold a candle to Thor in a straight fight, and the indications are that New 52 Diana could if not beat him certainly give him a serious run for his money.

Remember, regular Asgardians and Olympians are more comparable to The Warriors Three than Thor. And I'd at least see Carol hanging with Volstag for...wait...nevermind. He completely owned the U-Foes by himself.

[Metahuman1]

Even then it seems like Diana's weight class is regularly coming in to major named combatants caliber. Aries, Artemis, so on, maybe Thor's stronger then those guys, but not THAT much stronger, and Diana's hanging in there weight class or perhaps one below, meanwhile, Carol is stacks up to them the way a three year old in a karate class during daycare does against the reigning UFC heavyweight champion.

Yes, that comes off a bit harsher of her skill level/mental facility level then I'd like, but the raw power gap makes it an accurate descriptor for that aspect, and that's the aspect that needed to be focused on.

[Tanuki Tales]

Even then it seems like Diana's weight class is regularly coming in to major named combatants caliber. Aries, Artemis, so on, maybe Thor's stronger then those guys, but not THAT much stronger, and Diana's hanging in there weight class or perhaps one below, meanwhile, Carol is stacks up to them the way a three year old in a karate class during daycare does against the reigning UFC heavyweight champion.

Yes, that comes off a bit harsher of her skill level/mental facility level then I'd like, but the raw power gap makes it an accurate descriptor for that aspect, and that's the aspect that needed to be focused on.

Do the NuOlympians even have any feats comparable to their pre-boot selves? Because Post-Crisis Ares was like...Skyfather tier.

[Devonix]

Superman still reacts and acts in the time frame of nanoseconds in New 52. That's at least light speed, if not FTL, if I'm remembering my math correctly. He's not Flash fast, who reacts in freaking Femtoseconds, but its still faster than anyone from Marvel who isn't Thor or Silver Surfer level.

One problem with the reboot is while they said they were going to bring down powers and such they really haven't Supes is just as strong and fast as he was before the reboot.

[Tanuki Tales]

One problem with the reboot is while they said they were going to bring down powers and such they really haven't Supes is just as strong and fast as he was before the reboot.

While he might be as fast, I haven't heard that his other feats are anywhere near as impressive as his Post-Crisis self. And honestly, what did you expect when they made one of the main villains a serious Zrfffian? They might have been nerfed, but they're still ridiculously powerful.

[ben-zayb]

One problem with the reboot is while they said they were going to bring down powers and such they really haven't Supes is just as strong and fast as he was before the reboot.By nerf, they meant the there'll be no more Wally West that goes at trillion times FTL*.

among other similar ridiculous feats for other heroes

[Tanuki Tales]

By nerf, they meant the there'll be no more Wally West that goes at trillion times FTL*.

among other similar ridiculous feats for other heroes

Didn't Barry only get more powerful in New 52 though? :smallconfused:

[ben-zayb]

Didn't Barry only get more powerful in New 52 though? :smallconfused:Yes he did, but to Wally's detriment. They obviously want Barry Allen to be the front and center of the Flash mythos. (On the bright side, Wally West is actually finally being brought back to the Nu52 Universe)

[Jayngfet]

(On the bright side, Wally West is actually finally being brought back to the Nu52 Universe)

Given DC's editorial and consistently questionable writing, is that really a good thing? I mean for years I was glad most of my favorite guys haven't been in comics, simply because the ones that were wound up being questionable more often than not. Hell, even the ones that did show up tended to get wrecked anyway.

Far as I'm concerned, everyone that isn't being written can't be ruined.

[ben-zayb]

Given DC's editorial and consistently questionable writing, is that really a good thing? I mean for years I was glad most of my favorite guys haven't been in comics, simply because the ones that were wound up being questionable more often than not. Hell, even the ones that did show up tended to get wrecked anyway.

Far as I'm concerned, everyone that isn't being written can't be ruined.Eh, I always give the (non-batman) writers the benefit of a doubt (not a lot, really, considering I'm just from the 90s). I'm not really expecting something godsend for Wally, since he's already shafted at the beginning of Nu52 anyway, and they're supposedly trying to take a new spin on "Wally West" (so by default, a lot of people will already hate on him for not being the same old guy).

[Tanuki Tales]

I honestly wouldn't put it past DC to make Wally West a transsexual or some time-displaced female speedster trapped in a man's body. You know, just because it'd be a publicity grab and not because they'd actually be interested in portraying those kinds of individuals as existing in their universe.

I'm going to agree with Jay: Anyone who hasn't been written can't be ruined.

[GloatingSwine]

One problem with the reboot is while they said they were going to bring down powers and such they really haven't Supes is just as strong and fast as he was before the reboot.

They might have said that. But those things never stick anyway.

[Selrahc]

Eh. DC hereos aren't so much at the top of their scale so much as the scale runs bigger. A Marvel cosmic hero will go tromping around the galaxy, while a DC will tromp around the Universe.

No... they both go tromping round the Universe.

Kree, Skrull and Shiar all have their homeworlds outside the Milky Way, with multi-galactic empires. Beta Ray Bill comes from a race of aliens whose entire *galaxy* exploded. Big cosmic marvel events like the Cancerverse or the Infinity Gauntlet saga hit on a universal scale, and characters like Eternity, Destiny and others are all working universally.

The scale feels really off (for both universes), because these multi-galactic empires all end up resolving their battles with a handful of warships and some superheroes. But they're both operating universally.

[Tanuki Tales]

No... they both go tromping round the Universe.

Kree, Skrull and Shiar all have their homeworlds outside the Milky Way, with multi-galactic empires. Beta Ray Bill comes from a race of aliens whose entire *galaxy* exploded. Big cosmic marvel events like the Cancerverse or the Infinity Gauntlet saga hit on a universal scale, and characters like Eternity, Destiny and others are all working universally.

The scale feels really off (for both universes), because these multi-galactic empires all end up resolving their battles with a handful of warships and some superheroes. But they're both operating universally.

I believe he was talking about the normal, usually Earth bound heroes, not the cosmic folks.

You're more likely to see Batman fighting a dark, unspeakable god in the depths of space more often than you would Spider-man.

[Shinken]

I think you guys are selling Carol short. Do you follow her comics?

[Ranxerox]

I think you guys are selling Carol short. Do you follow her comics?

I'm not a long time follower, but I do own every single issue issue of her Captain Marvel run. They have been well written and I have enjoyed them a lot. So far I have not seen her do anything that would lead me to believe she could beat Wonder Woman except by flux. Wonder Woman is stronger, faster and a vastly more skilled combatant. Heck, she currently is the Greek god of war. How bad@ss is that?

[Tanuki Tales]

I think you guys are selling Carol short. Do you follow her comics?

She's a Class 75 flying brick who doesn't have a speed feat that puts her past massively hypersonic (sub-relativistic to relativistic if you're being overly generous) and doesn't have the durability feats to let her take planet busters or the energy manip to put that out. Most of her impressive stuff comes from her Binary incarnation, who could probably hang with Wonder Woman. Please provide scans to correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit:

In short, Carol is a High Meta tier character where Nu52 Diana is still a Herald tier, if low herald.

[BRC]

I think you guys are selling Carol short. Do you follow her comics?

Don't confuse being an awesome character with being a powerful character.

I like Spider-Man better than Superman, but I don't think Your Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman could take The Soup in a fight.

[ben-zayb]

I think you guys are selling Carol short. Do you follow her comics?That's why I asked if anyone has a list of her feats. I hadn't really caught on Ms. Marvel's exploits, unfortunately.

^Agree above. I guess Marvel have more relatable and "invest-able" characters in general (whether that is related to power levels is another discussion entirely), so the sentiment that Parker is more awesome than Supes is actually not that uncommon.:smallamused:

[Shinken]

She's a Class 75 flying brick who doesn't have a speed feat that puts her past massively hypersonic (sub-relativistic to relativistic if you're being overly generous) and doesn't have the durability feats to let her take planet busters or the energy manip to put that out. Most of her impressive stuff comes from her Binary incarnation, who could probably hang with Wonder Woman. Please provide scans to correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit:

In short, Carol is a High Meta tier character where Nu52 Diana is still a Herald tier, if low herald.

But Carol can still tap into her Binary powers and does so from time to time. Also, New52 Diana does not have all that speed. It was never shown. Wonder Woman kills gods, buit even mortals kill gods in the DCU, but so does Batwoman. It's not that special.

[Metahuman1]

But Carol can still tap into her Binary powers and does so from time to time. Also, New52 Diana does not have all that speed. It was never shown. Wonder Woman kills gods, buit even mortals kill gods in the DCU, but so does Batwoman. It's not that special.

When did Batwoman ever solo a God? I'm not saying I don't believe but this is the first I'm hearing of it.

And the break down is kinda like this. As near as we can tell based on what we've seen so far, the DC Olympian's are roughly on par with the Marvel U's Asgard. And Diana is Fighting on a level comparable to the DC Olympians consistently. Thus it stands to reason she'd be able to fight on a level comparable to the Marvel U's Asgardians consistently. And Carol, much as I love her, has demonstrated that when she's not Binary, she's just flat too far below that weight class to keep up.

[Shinken]

When did Batwoman ever solo a God? I'm not saying I don't believe but this is the first I'm hearing of it.
In her New 52 title. It's even a crossover with Wonder Woman.


And the break down is kinda like this. As near as we can tell based on what we've seen so far, the DC Olympian's are roughly on par with the Marvel U's Asgard. And Diana is Fighting on a level comparable to the DC Olympians consistently. Thus it stands to reason she'd be able to fight on a level comparable to the Marvel U's Asgardians consistently. And Carol, much as I love her, has demonstrated that when she's not Binary, she's just flat too far below that weight class to keep up.
I don't see where you're getting that from. Some of the olympians don't even have enhanced strength and endurance. Their power level is all over the scale. They're closer to American Gods than God of Thunder. Yes, some of them are strong, but guessing they most be a Thor's level just because they are gods is not sound logic.

[Metahuman1]

Do you have an issue number for that?


And I didn't guess they were all universally at Thor's level. I guessed they ran the gambit form the warriors three to Thor and multiple levels in-between and even a bit below and above, but that even the levels below were still so much higher then what Carol is depicted as being able to match on a regular basis when she's not Binary, that the fact that Diana is inside that spectrum at all put's her leagues above Carol in terms of power/ability/combat threat level.

[Tanuki Tales]

But Carol can still tap into her Binary powers and does so from time to time. Also, New52 Diana does not have all that speed. It was never shown. Wonder Woman kills gods, buit even mortals kill gods in the DCU, but so does Batwoman. It's not that special.

I asked concerning her hanging with the other JLA mainstays. No one mentioned that she couldn't keep up with NuSuperman. NuSuperman is capable at fighting at FTL speeds. Thus, if NuDiana can fight NuClark, she's approaching light speed, if not it or greater.

And I was unaware of Carol being able to go Binary at will. Why does she not just stay Binary?

[Metahuman1]

Last I checked, and I admit it's been awhile since I looked at that particular Detail, she can't just go Binary at will as a sort of "Super Saiyan Mode Active!" mechanic.

It's just that every once in while a writer or editor decides he liked her better as Binary/having her be Binary/At Binary's level is a better plot device, and goes for that and does a hand wave to justify it until it's not what they want anymore and hand wave it back.

[Tanuki Tales]

Last I checked, and I admit it's been awhile since I looked at that particular Detail, she can't just go Binary at will as a sort of "Super Saiyan Mode Active!" mechanic.

It's just that every once in while a writer or editor decides he liked her better as Binary/having her be Binary/At Binary's level is a better plot device, and goes for that and does a hand wave to justify it until it's not what they want anymore and hand wave it back.

So...like they're fighting over a Cosmic Cube, she just happens to absorb energy from it and goes Binary, then the cube gets locked up or destroyed and she burns through the energy?

[Metahuman1]

That's the general feel of it about half the time. "Up, she's there even though she didn't control getting there/didn't actively look for it." *A few issues/pages/whatever later.* "Up, ok, time's up, she's back to her default power level, more or less."


That said to the best of my knowledge it's been awhile since they pulled something along those lines with her.

[Shinken]

I asked concerning her hanging with the other JLA mainstays. No one mentioned that she couldn't keep up with NuSuperman. NuSuperman is capable at fighting at FTL speeds. Thus, if NuDiana can fight NuClark, she's approaching light speed, if not it or greater.
Batman fought Superman, so I guess that means he moves at FTL speeds as well?
The werewolves in Gotham could hit Wonder Woman with their claws. From your logic, that means they move at FTL speed. Batwoman can hit those guys, so she can move at FTL speed as well. Firebird can hit Batwoman, so that means she must be moving at FTL speed as well. Random mooks in Gotham can hit Firebird, so we must assume everyone in Gotham can move faster than the speed of light. Like I said before, that logic is not sound.

I don't remember when Superman fought at FTL speed to begin with in the new continuity, by the way. Can you tell me when that happened?


And I was unaware of Carol being able to go Binary at will. Why does she not just stay Binary?
She can't do it at will, she needs to absorb energy to do it.


Do you have an issue number for that?
I'm guessing 20-24, but it might have been a bit earlier.


And I didn't guess they were all universally at Thor's level. I guessed they ran the gambit form the warriors three to Thor and multiple levels in-between and even a bit below and above, but that even the levels below were still so much higher then what Carol is depicted as being able to match on a regular basis when she's not Binary, that the fact that Diana is inside that spectrum at all put's her leagues above Carol in terms of power/ability/combat threat level.
And I'm telling that's a very wrong assumption. Most olympians we see in Wonder Woman don't even fight. Some of them have explicitly human level abilities. Pegasus is a great example. When he shows up he is clearly identified as a god -- "I try to look past the god... to just analyze the wounds and piece together what has happened here." - Batwoman -- and when they meet him he is recovering (very slowly - "Mortals will have vanished from the Earth before I am whole again") from a brutal beating he took from Falchion. This guy, Falchion, is someone that Batwoman can (and does) defeat. Unless you think Batwoman is as powerful as the Warrior's Three, your logic does not hold. I think I'm repeating myself, but the olympians in Wonder Woman are not like Thor's asgardians, they more like the gods in Gaiman's American Gods.

[Tanuki Tales]

Batman fought Superman, so I guess that means he moves at FTL speeds as well?

Don't be glib.


The werewolves in Gotham could hit Wonder Woman with their claws. From your logic, that means they move at FTL speed. Batwoman can hit those guys, so she can move at FTL speed as well. Firebird can hit Batwoman, so that means she must be moving at FTL speed as well. Random mooks in Gotham can hit Firebird, so we must assume everyone in Gotham can move faster than the speed of light. Like I said before, that logic is not sound.

Now you're just being disingenious, trying to play up obvious PIS as some standard portrayal.


I don't remember when Superman fought at FTL speed to begin with in the new continuity, by the way. Can you tell me when that happened?

I could have sworn I had seen a scan concerning Nu52 Clark being mentioned having Nanosecond reaction speed, but I can't find it with a cursory search.

So, let's go from what else we have:
We know that Barry has Femtosecond reaction speed and that he is several times C.
We know Barry doesn't go all out, so it's reasonable to extrapolate that he probably operates around Nanoseconds when holding back.
When Clark was whupping on Hal and Bruce, Barry crossed the distance between Central City and New York with Clark having enough time to move his left arm from facing backward to ready to deliver another punch.

Actually, let's ignore the first two points and look at the math behind the third:

Reaction speed for an average human is 251 milliseconds, but it would take longer to move one's arm. Superman has super speed, so he'd be able to set up a punch ridiculously fast, but let's assume he was just using normal speed and say it took him 1 second.
Central City is approximately where Kansas City is, irl, and let's assume Metropolis is New York for the sake of argument. So that's around 1,200 miles.
That would mean Barry went from being in Central City, at work, on the phone with Hal, to stopping Clark in the span of a second and crossed 1,200 miles in that second. That's 4,320,000 miles per hour or ~1,931,213 meters per second. That's around Mach 6000.

Now, that's a very conservative speed estimate. We know Superman has a considerable amount of super speed himself, so it would take him far less time to set up that punch and thus would make Barry far faster.

So, while that feat is far below lightspeed, we don't need lightspeed for this debate, unless you can give me a feat for Carol that is better than her reaching escape velocity when fighting a Super-Skrull.

Why?

Escape Velocity is about 11.2 km/s, which is 11,200 m/s, which is around Mach 34. So even if Diana is only about a 10th as fast as either Barry or Clark from that fight, she's still ridiculously faster than Carol. Even at 1/100th their speed, she's almost twice as fast as Carol.



She can't do it at will, she needs to absorb energy to do it.

Which she is getting from where in this fight?

[Anteros]

Don't try to argue with Tanuki or Fan about comic book power levels. Down that road lies madness. Every example you post will be dismissed as author stupidity or something similar, while every example they post is the infallible only true representation of the character.

The truth of course is that comic book character power levels vary story by story.



Math about how fast Flash is.

And then in the next issue he gets punched out by a Gorilla.

[Tanuki Tales]

Things.

You failing to acknowledge that PIS is a legitimate thing doesn't make it not exist.

Edit: Nor do I appreciate your attempt to poison the well. Attack my points, not me as a person. Thank you.

[Shinken]

Don't be glib.(...)Now you're just being disingenious(...)


Edit: Nor do I appreciate your attempt to poison the well. Attack my points, not me as a person. Thank you.
I would appreciate if you did the same, thanks.


trying to play up obvious PIS as some standard portrayal.
Except it is the standard portrayal. Flash's femtosecond reaction time was mentioned once. It hasn't even been used as such, since that makes absolutely no sense and would make it imposisble for anything to be a challenge to him.





So, let's go from what else we have:
We know that Barry has Femtosecond reaction speed and that he is several times C.
We know Barry doesn't go all out, so it's reasonable to extrapolate that he probably operates around Nanoseconds when holding back.
When Clark was whupping on Hal and Bruce, Barry crossed the distance between Central City and New York with Clark having enough time to move his left arm from facing backward to ready to deliver another punch.

Actually, let's ignore the first two points and look at the math behind the third:

Reaction speed for an average human is 251 milliseconds, but it would take longer to move one's arm. Superman has super speed, so he'd be able to set up a punch ridiculously fast, but let's assume he was just using normal speed and say it took him 1 second.
Central City is approximately where Kansas City is, irl, and let's assume Metropolis is New York for the sake of argument. So that's around 1,200 miles.
That would mean Barry went from being in Central City, at work, on the phone with Hal, to stopping Clark in the span of a second and crossed 1,200 miles in that second. That's 4,320,000 miles per hour or ~1,931,213 meters per second. That's around Mach 6000.
You realize you're doing exactly the same thing you accused me of doing "disengeniously"? :smallconfused:


Escape Velocity is about 11.2 km/s, which is 11,200 m/s, which is around Mach 34. So even if Diana is only about a 10th as fast as either Barry or Clark from that fight, she's still ridiculously faster than Carol. Even at 1/100th their speed, she's almost twice as fast as Carol.
That makes little to no sense. You can't use another character to gauge Diana's speed. She was never shown to be that fast post reboot and as mentioned before her whole solo plot wouldn't make any sense if she was.
By that record, Carol was shown to be able to move and react as fast as Thor and Silver Surfer. Does that mean she can cross the whole universe in seconds, like the Surfer can? Of course not, you just have to read her comic to know that. It's the same thing about Wonder Woman.


Which she is getting from where in this fight?
Kinetic energy from Diana's punches? Absorbing Zeus' lightning?

[Tanuki Tales]

Except it is the standard portrayal. Flash's femtosecond reaction time was mentioned once. It hasn't even been used as such, since that makes absolutely no sense and would make it imposisble for anything to be a challenge to him.

So, you're going to use "LolComics" as your evidence?



You realize you're doing exactly the same thing you accused me of doing "disengeniously"? :smallconfused:

No, I'm not. Please actually show me how my math and my evidence is wrong, don't simply claim it is.


That makes little to no sense. You can't use another character to gauge Diana's speed. She was never shown to be that fast post reboot and as mentioned before her whole solo plot wouldn't make any sense if she was.

I will go find speed feats if need be. Doesn't she have a mini with Superman currently?


By that record, Carol was shown to be able to move and react as fast as Thor and Silver Surfer. Does that mean she can cross the whole universe in seconds, like the Surfer can? Of course not, you just have to read her comic to know that. It's the same thing about Wonder Woman.

I'd like to see evidence of that please. If you can't link scans then please do reference a specific fight or even give me an issue number. I'll go look for it. Also, Thor and Silver Surfer are notorious for massively holding back against anyone they fight, just like Superman does. So depending on the showing you speak of, it may or may not be a good piece of evidence for your side. Otherwise, please present a better feat than her reaching escape velocity.



Kinetic energy from Diana's punches? Absorbing Zeus' lightning?

I thought Carol's schtick was absorbing radiant energy, not all forms of energy like Bishop or Sebastian Shaw. And has she absorbed mystical energy in the past? While that's a valid avenue, I highly doubt Diana is going to keep using a form of attack that her foe is immune to.

[Fan]

That's one of the reasons why I specified New 52 Wonder Woman. She doesn't move anywhere near that speed. The whole Wonder Woman plot has her running around the globe, if she did move that fast the series would be over in issue #2.


That was probably true pre-reboot, but everyone at DC is a lot weaker in New 52. Except for the Flash, I think, but no one writes him as powerful as he really is anyway.

I think it's an even match and it could go either way. Their strength and endurance levels seem similar enough to me, Diana is a more skilled fighter, but Carol is a more skilled flyer. Both have their power ups - Diana can remove her bracelets (going Full (demi)God Mode) and Carol can absorb energy (going Full (almost)Binary Mode).

For most this is true, but for Diana?

Hah no.

Diana is one of the few people able to solo Darkseid, and she's more willing to kill than any other Justice League Member.

If we use Binary Captain Marvel / Carol Danver then we use God Wave Wonder Woman who is faster than /The FLASH/ who is TRILLIONS of times faster than light, and is capable of The Infinite Mass Punch while having a sword so sharp it can cut Superman who has Star -> Solar System level durability.

Diana stomps both fights with a decisive first strike that decapitates if blood lusted, or incapacitates if not.

As for math, I'll get some up soon.

[Tanuki Tales]

Alright, I've found scans of Diana fighting Superman, of her flying at equal speeds with Superman and her fighting evenly alongside Superman against Zod and someone I assume is Ursa (and she practically owned Ursa). Is that sufficient enough to attribute speeds in the ballpark of the Mach 6000 feat to her?

[Fan]

Alright, I've found scans of Diana fighting Superman, of her flying at equal speeds with Superman and her fighting evenly alongside Superman against Zod and someone I assume is Ursa (and she practically owned Ursa). Is that sufficient enough to attribute speeds in the ballpark of the Mach 6000 feat to her?

Diana is as fast, if not faster, than Superman.

She is more along the lines of 15-100's of times faster than light to /trillions/ with the God Wave. Machs don't measure up.

[Tanuki Tales]

Diana is as fast, if not faster, than Superman.

She is more along the lines of 15-100's of times faster than light to /trillions/ with the God Wave. Machs don't measure up.

That's Post-Crisis Wonder Woman Fan, I'm talking about NuDiana.

Edit: Also, my bad, it was Faora, not Ursa.

[Fan]

That's Post-Crisis Wonder Woman Fan, I'm talking about NuDiana.

Edit: Also, my bad, it was Faora, not Ursa.

NuDiana solo'd Darkseid, and tanked the Omega Effect with her bracers.

The Cheetah tagged new 52 flash who has a New 52 feat putting him at his old speed thanks to 1 Captain Atom going nuclear.

She's easily the new strongest Justice Leaguer tied with Supes who did the same to The Flash in his intro the league with less experience than he has now.

I mean Supes has new 52 feats that make him easily as strong as he used to be Sundipped in New 52 now.

Nu52 is an upgrade, not a downgrade for non power up forms.

[HandofShadows]

You're more likely to see Batman fighting a dark, unspeakable god in the depths of space more often than you would Spider-man.

Actually, Spider Man has a long history of fighting nearly anything. He does not go into space much, he usually ends up in other dimensions or or fighting things from other dimensions. Spidey teams up with Dr Strange more than most of the rest of the marvel universe combined (unitl Strange became part of the Avengers).

[Tanuki Tales]

Nu52 is an upgrade, not a downgrade for non power up forms.

Seriously?

Also, I found 2 important feats:

1. Supergirl fighting evenly with Barry. (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111126230/3473791-3216024947-super.jpg)
2. Wonder Woman overcoming Supergirl in a fight and saying they're comparable in speed. (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/67985/3193594-supergirl+v6+%2317+-+page+11.jpg)

So, Shinken, how hasn't Diana shown speed feats comparable to Barry and Clark in Nu52?

[Shinken]

So, you're going to use "LolComics" as your evidence?
No, I'm saying that picking "feats" means next to nothing in the context of superheroes. Their portraya is incredibly inconsistent, even more in DC than in Marvel. Just because some writer doesn't know what a femtosecond actually is it does not mean Flash is the most powerful being alike.
You're simply picking and choosing, using sources that support your point of view (or rather, the one choice that supports your view that Superman is almost as fast as the Flash that leads into your assumption that Wonder Woman is as fast as he is) and ignoring other choices that don't support your view (the entirety of the Wonder Woman solo series).


So, you're going to use "LolComics" as your evidence?No, I'm not. Please actually show me how my math and my evidence is wrong, don't simply claim it is.[/quote]
I haven't checked your math, but you're making a lot of assumptions and taking them as fact. You're assuming that speed = reaction time, which it simply does not. You're assuming that Wonder Woman is bout as fast as Superman just because you think she is, without giving any reason for that other than them being in the same team and having fought the same villain at the same time (which would imply Batman moves at the same speed).


I will go find speed feats if need be. Doesn't she have a mini with Superman currently?
She has an ongoing series with Superman, yes. That means next to nothing, since as you mentioned yourself if she is shown to be as powerful as Superman it could be simply that he is holding back. Or better yet: I could call it plot induced overpoweredness. PIO. Hm. I like it better than PIS.



I'd like to see evidence of that please. If you can't link scans then please do reference a specific fight or even give me an issue number. I'll go look for it. Also, Thor and Silver Surfer are notorious for massively holding back against anyone they fight, just like Superman does. So depending on the showing you speak of, it may or may not be a good piece of evidence for your side. Otherwise, please present a better feat than her reaching escape velocity.
You could try Avengers Endless Wartime, I guess. She leaves the quinjet so she can fly faster, though I don't think that's faster than escape velocity. Thor does refer to her as his equal, though.


I thought Carol's schtick was absorbing radiant energy, not all forms of energy like Bishop or Sebastian Shaw. And has she absorbed mystical energy in the past? While that's a valid avenue, I highly doubt Diana is going to keep using a form of attack that her foe is immune to.
Carol can absorb all forms of energy, though she hardly does. That's why I haven't mentioned it before - officially, she can absorb "energy" in general, but she does it with "comic book energy" (which is not necessarily radiant energy) most times. She does absorb magical energy in her old Ms. Marvel series in Dr Strange crossover (I want to say issue 5, but I'm not sure).
I think she absorbed life energy in her early career, but don't quote me on that.


Seriously?

Also, I found 2 important feats:

1. Supergirl fighting evenly with Barry. (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111126230/3473791-3216024947-super.jpg)
2. Wonder Woman overcoming Supergirl in a fight and saying they're comparable in speed. (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/67985/3193594-supergirl+v6+%2317+-+page+11.jpg)

So, Shinken, how hasn't Diana shown speed feats comparable to Barry and Clark in Nu52?

And we're back to the light speed werewolf scenario, then.

[Tanuki Tales]

No, I'm saying that picking "feats" means next to nothing in the context of superheroes. Their portraya is incredibly inconsistent, even more in DC than in Marvel. Just because some writer doesn't know what a femtosecond actually is it does not mean Flash is the most powerful being alike.
You're simply picking and choosing, using sources that support your point of view (or rather, the one choice that supports your view that Superman is almost as fast as the Flash that leads into your assumption that Wonder Woman is as fast as he is) and ignoring other choices that don't support your view (the entirety of the Wonder Woman solo series).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't her solo series spend most of its time explaining how she goes from being something like peak human/low meta to gaining all the blessings that let her hang in the Justice League?


I haven't checked your math, but you're making a lot of assumptions and taking them as fact. You're assuming that speed = reaction time, which it simply does not. You're assuming that Wonder Woman is bout as fast as Superman just because you think she is, without giving any reason for that other than them being in the same team and having fought the same villain at the same time (which would imply Batman moves at the same speed).

It's a fallacy to assume someone's reaction speed is less than their travel speed. To be able to make course corrections and fight at a certain speed, you must also be at least able to react at those same speeds. And I'm not making an assumption that she's comparable to Superman in speed, I've provided the feats that show it.



She has an ongoing series with Superman, yes. That means next to nothing, since as you mentioned yourself if she is shown to be as powerful as Superman it could be simply that he is holding back. Or better yet: I could call it plot induced overpoweredness. PIO. Hm. I like it better than PIS.

So you're going to simply make things up that contradict what she's shown to do on-panel. Alright, that's your prerogative after all.



You could try Avengers Endless Wartime, I guess. She leaves the quinjet so she can fly faster, though I don't think that's faster than escape velocity. Thor does refer to her as his equal, though.

Yeah, Quinjets in atmosphere are less than escape velocity if memory serves. And in what context did Thor make this statement?



Carol can absorb all forms of energy, though she hardly does. That's why I haven't mentioned it before - officially, she can absorb "energy" in general, but she does it with "comic book energy" (which is not necessarily radiant energy) most times. She does absorb magical energy in her old Ms. Marvel series in Dr Strange crossover (I want to say issue 5, but I'm not sure).
I think she absorbed life energy in her early career, but don't quote me on that.

But does she have kinetic energy absorbing feats though? And how will she deal with Diana's sword, which can literally split atoms?

[Shinken]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't her solo series spend most of its time explaining how she goes from being something like peak human/low meta to gaining all the blessings that let her hang in the Justice League?
You are wrong. Her series is about Wonder Woman discovering the truth about her heritage, after being Wonder Woman for plenty of time already.


It's a fallacy to assume someone's reaction speed is less than their travel speed.
Considering that all living beings have different travel speeds and reaction, I am sure you are mistaken.

To be able to make course corrections and fight at a certain speed, you must also be at least able to react at those same speeds. And I'm not making an assumption that she's comparable to Superman in speed, I've provided the feats that show it.
You mentioned no feats Diana did. You just said Superman is this fast because of Flash so Wonder Woman must be this fast because of Superman.



So you're going to simply make things up that contradict what she's shown to do on-panel. Alright, that's your prerogative after all.
You're doing the same to contradict the poor lightspeed werewolves, aren't you?0


Yeah, Quinjets in atmosphere are less than escape velocity if memory serves. And in what context did Thor make this statement?
Didn't you say you were going to look it up?


But does she have kinetic energy absorbing feats though? And how will she deal with Diana's sword, which can literally split atoms?
Diana's sword could only split atoms in Kingdom Come. Werewolves parried her swords, I'm sure Carol can do the same.

[Tanuki Tales]

You are wrong. Her series is about Wonder Woman discovering the truth about her heritage, after being Wonder Woman for plenty of time already.

Then I can't tell you why the writers have chosen to nerf her in her own solo but have her do as normal in group books.



Considering that all living beings have different travel speeds and reaction, I am sure you are mistaken.

Prove I'm mistaken here then.


You mentioned no feats Diana did. You just said Superman is this fast because of Flash so Wonder Woman must be this fast because of Superman.

Then you obviously haven't read anything I posted on this page.



You're doing the same to contradict the poor lightspeed werewolves, aren't you?0

Stop being glib please. You continue to lowball Diana while I have taken Carol at face value and have done nothing to lowball her.



Didn't you say you were going to look it up?

I also asked you for an issue number.


Diana's sword could only split atoms in Kingdom Come. Werewolves parried her swords, I'm sure Carol can do the same.

Yeah (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3695644-superman-wonder+woman+%282013-%29+006-017.jpg) her sword can. (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3695641-superman-wonder+woman+%282013-%29+006-016.jpg)

Should I start lowballing Carol? I'm sure she has some less than stellar showings, as do all comic characters.

[Shinken]

Then I can't tell you why the writers have chosen to nerf her in her own solo but have her do as normal in group books.
Shouldn't her solo book take precedence? :smallconfused:


Prove I'm mistaken here then.
You can drive a car. There. You're proven wrong.



Stop being glib please.
Stop the personal attacks please.


I also asked you for an issue number.
Endless Wartime is a single graphic novel.

I'm not lowballing Diana, I'm saying using other characters' feats as a metric for her feats means next to nothing. You are assuming Flash wasn't holding back against Supergirl, assuming Supergirl wasn't holding back against Diana and assuming Diana is right on her assessment of Supergirl's speed. Instead of showing Diana doing things, you're showing other people doing things, showing them at the same panel as Diana and assuming that means Diana can do the same things those guys did. You're also ignoring all evidence against her being being at the power level you want, while all the evidence toward her being in the power level you want is "she is Superman's girl" or "she is in the Justice League" or "Supergirl's writer didn't do his research".

Also, I can't even begin to point out how wrong that scan is. Also, funnily enough, by your metric that is point towards Carol winning - Diana is afraid of a nuclear explosion and Carol can hit as hard as a nuclear explosion (Mighty Avengers #6). It's also funny how no one can figure out if Diana is supposed to have supersenses or not, since she does not have it in her own title, she has it in Justice League, she does have it in Superman/Wonder Woman but she has it in the Batwoman crossover. What a mess.

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm not lowballing Diana, I'm saying using other characters' feats as a metric for her feats means next to nothing. You are assuming Flash wasn't holding back against Supergirl, assuming Supergirl wasn't holding back against Diana and assuming Diana is right on her assessment of Supergirl's speed. Instead of showing Diana doing things, you're showing other people doing things, showing them at the same panel as Diana and assuming that means Diana can do the same things those guys did. You're also ignoring all evidence against her being being at the power level you want, while all the evidence toward her being in the power level you want is "she is Superman's girl" or "she is in the Justice League" or "Supergirl's writer didn't do his research".

And yet all of your counter evidence amounts to, "It doesn't count because I say so".

Edit:

I mean, if you're so convinced Diana doesn't stand a chance against Carol, why did you even make this thread? You don't need us to validate what you already hold as the truth.

[Shinken]

And yet all of your counter evidence amounts to, "It doesn't count because I say so".

Edit:

I mean, if you're so convinced Diana doesn't stand a chance against Carol, why did you even make this thread? You don't need us to validate what you already hold as the truth.

I never even said Carol wins, I think it's pretty much a tie and that it could go either way. My counter evidence is not "because I say so", it's "what you're saying does not reflect what I read in her book". You are the one telling me that her own solo series does not count.

[Tanuki Tales]

I never even said Carol wins, I think it's pretty much a tie and that it could go either way. My counter evidence is not "because I say so", it's "what you're saying does not reflect what I read in her book". You are the one telling me that her own solo series does not count.

There is no such thing as a hierarchy of canon in comics like there is in Star Wars, so a solo series means no more than a team series, a mini-series, an inter-company crossover, or any other kind of book. It only matters what the majority of the appearances show.

[Metahuman1]

Thor does refer to her as his equal, though.

Doesn't Thor actively try to refer to and treat everyone as his equal until they succeed and behaving in an appalling enough fashion to Warrant otherwise?

Stark, Cap, Fury, Barton, hell even Jane Forester who doesn't even have superpowers or hand to hand combat training or weapons training in like 99% of her appearances?

[SeeDarkly_X]

Marvel wins. In brief, here's why:

Captain Marvel was taken out of her bikini costumes to wear a full-body practical uniform...
No one blinked an eye.

Wonder Woman was put in pants
and the nerdscape went INSANE!
Then her pants were gone & she was in underwear again.

Who cares who wins a fist-fight?
The nerdscape beat THE PANTS OFF WONDER-WOMAN.

Capt. Marvel is just a better role-model, period.

[ben-zayb]

OP is really confusing me here...

I've at least provided some of WW feats. Tanuki at least managed to provide ABC-logic feats (which you may or may not accept, although it can sometimes be contextually applicable). It surprises me that we're at 70+ posts and we're yet to see any measure of Ms. Marvel's powers. Someone who isn't familiar with her can't take anything of value from claiming she can absorb energy if there's no magnitude involved.

I've already asked at least three times now for someone to give us something to quantifiably assess Carol with. So how can we possibly low-ball Carol again if we don't have anything to low-ball her with?:smalltongue:

[LokeyITP]

Tanuki also proved the Flash can travel in time if his description of the fight last page is accurate :)

[SeeDarkly_X]

Quantifiable assessments:

http://marvel.wikia.com/Carol_Danvers_%28Earth-616%29

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Diana_of_Themyscira_%28Prime_Earth%29

Do whatever research you need.
You will still find that Capt. Marvel now wears a full body suit and Wonder Woman still wears underwear.

The victory is mine. :smallbiggrin:

[ben-zayb]

If we're to assess them based on their outfits, we'll be the winners. No way around that.:smallamused:

[Tanuki Tales]

Tanuki also proved the Flash can travel in time if his description of the fight last page is accurate :)

I don't believe I showed anything concerning time travel (which I think Barry can do with the Speed Force), did I?

@Ben: Well, I can at least attest to Carol being at least Mach 34. I feel like I've sufficiently proven that Diana has better feats than that. And I don't really think I used too much ABC logic once I showed that Diana owned Supergirl. Do I need to also post her manhandling Zod and Faora 2 v 1? You might argue Superman holds back, but there's no reason those two should. Or do I need to literally find a feat where the narrator claims her speed?

If anyone is really familiar with thermodynamics, we can probably calculate how fast she'd need to be to superheat her sword to prevent a hydra from regenerating its heads. She mentions in that scan that she also needs to damage the heads faster than they can regenerate.

[Shinken]

Doesn't Thor actively try to refer to and treat everyone as his equal until they succeed and behaving in an appalling enough fashion to Warrant otherwise?

Stark, Cap, Fury, Barton, hell even Jane Forester who doesn't even have superpowers or hand to hand combat training or weapons training in like 99% of her appearances?

No, Thor flat out says she is as strong as he is. That's from Avengers Endless Wartime.


There is no such thing as a hierarchy of canon in comics like there is in Star Wars, so a solo series means no more than a team series, a mini-series, an inter-company crossover, or any other kind of book. It only matters what the majority of the appearances show.
Which means all Gotham mooks must be moving at the speed of light. It also means that physics work completely different in the DCU, since moving at the speed of light is even possible. It also seems to generate no energy whatsoever, just some dramatic wind (sometimes). The Speed Force is an excuse for speedsters only - is Superman threw a single lightspeed punch within Earth's atmosphere, the impact would be greater than a nuke with comparable collateral damage.


Tanuki also proved the Flash can travel in time if his description of the fight last page is accurate :)
The Flash can, indeed, travel in time.


I don't believe I showed anything concerning time travel (which I think Barry can do with the Speed Force), did I?

@Ben: Well, I can at least attest to Carol being at least Mach 34. I feel like I've sufficiently proven that Diana has better feats than that. And I don't really think I used too much ABC logic once I showed that Diana owned Supergirl. Do I need to also post her manhandling Zod and Faora 2 v 1? You might argue Superman holds back, but there's no reason those two should. Or do I need to literally find a feat where the narrator claims her speed?

If anyone is really familiar with thermodynamics, we can probably calculate how fast she'd need to be to superheat her sword to prevent a hydra from regenerating its heads. She mentions in that scan that she also needs to damage the heads faster than they can regenerate.
You have yet to adress Diana stating she doesn't think she can survive a nuke and Carol hitting as hard as a nuke.


OP is really confusing me here...

I've at least provided some of WW feats. Tanuki at least managed to provide ABC-logic feats (which you may or may not accept, although it can sometimes be contextually applicable). It surprises me that we're at 70+ posts and we're yet to see any measure of Ms. Marvel's powers. Someone who isn't familiar with her can't take anything of value from claiming she can absorb energy if there's no magnitude involved.
Tanuki himself mentioned she reaches escape velocity and I've alreayd pointed out that it is mentioned in Mighty Avengers #6 how she can hit as hard as a nuke.


I've already asked at least three times now for someone to give us something to quantifiably assess Carol with. So how can we possibly low-ball Carol again if we don't have anything to low-ball her with?:smalltongue:
If you're not familiar with Carol, I don't think should be discussing her anyway.

[Tanuki Tales]

No, Thor flat out says she is as strong as he is. That's from Avengers Endless Wartime.

I'll see if I can track down the actual statement. Regardless, this is a Warren Ellis book and it's complete crap to say regular Carol could even hang with Thor being serious. Maybe, just maybe Binary, but I'd still see Thor cleaning her clock.



Which means all Gotham mooks must be moving at the speed of light. It also means that physics work completely different in the DCU, since moving at the speed of light is even possible. It also seems to generate no energy whatsoever, just some dramatic wind (sometimes). The Speed Force is an excuse for speedsters only - is Superman threw a single lightspeed punch within Earth's atmosphere, the impact would be greater than a nuke with comparable collateral damage.

So now you're trying to use "Lolcomics!" to try and handwave away that you have nothing to really rebuke anything I've said. Fun fact, there are people in Marvel who can go just as fast as people from DC. Any Herald tier character has at least the reflexes to deal with c or faster than c opponents.



You have yet to adress Diana stating she doesn't think she can survive a nuke and Carol hitting as hard as a nuke.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of you stating that first part and I'd like to know when she said that. And hitting "hard as a nuke" is actually pretty weak for someone of Carol's weight class. A really strong nuke can only outright destroy a city. Someone in Carol's weight class should be able to trivially destroy a small mountain or even possibly bust an island. I don't know how she hangs with either She-Hulk or Ben Grimm, but they've got country level feats, so she should be able to possibly amp herself there.

Wonder Woman has plenty of feats of taking blows from people like H'el, Superman (mindcontrolled, possessed and functioning normally), Supergirl, Shazam (Billy) and Darkseid. We know Superman is capable of bench pressing planetary weight for days on end without any real difficulty, so anyone in his weight class should be able to put on more of a hurt than Carol is capable of.

But I see that you've abandoned the speed argument and have moved on to durability.



Tanuki himself mentioned she reaches escape velocity and I've alreayd pointed out that it is mentioned in Mighty Avengers #6 how she can hit as hard as a nuke.

Yup, she's solidly Mach 34 and she definitely should be capable of mountain busting or better, depending on strength amping.



If you're not familiar with Carol, I don't think should be discussing her anyway.

Well, as long as we inform them and present feats, then they can start discussing her. No need to exclude people simply because they're unaware. :smallsmile:

[Shinken]

I'll see if I can track down the actual statement. Regardless, this is a Warren Ellis book and it's complete crap to say regular Carol could even hang with Thor being serious. Maybe, just maybe Binary, but I'd still see Thor cleaning her clock.
Oh, so you don't like the writer, so it does not count? :smallconfused:



So now you're trying to use "Lolcomics!" to try and handwave away that you have nothing to really rebuke anything I've said. Fun fact, there are people in Marvel who can go just as fast as people from DC. Any Herald tier character has at least the reflexes to deal with c or faster than c opponents.
Again, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it makes no sense to assume that anyone is moving at speeds even close to the speed of light within Earth's atmosphere. Marvel characters that move that fast don't that in Earth's atmosphere as well.



I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of you stating that first part and I'd like to know when she said that. And hitting "hard as a nuke" is actually pretty weak for someone of Carol's weight class. A really strong nuke can only outright destroy a city. Someone in Carol's weight class should be able to trivially destroy a small mountain or even possibly bust an island. I don't know how she hangs with either She-Hulk or Ben Grimm, but they've got country level feats, so she should be able to possibly amp herself there.
Actually, it's in that scan you posted yourself about Wonder Woman being able to cut an atom that she can't see, that causing a nuclear explosion and she being unsure about surviving it herself. As I mentioned several times before, that assessment about Carol's strength is from Mighty Avengers #6.


Wonder Woman has plenty of feats of taking blows from people like H'el, Superman (mindcontrolled, possessed and functioning normally), Supergirl, Shazam (Billy) and Darkseid. We know Superman is capable of bench pressing planetary weight for days on end without any real difficulty, so anyone in his weight class should be able to put on more of a hurt than Carol is capable of.
Why does Diana herself say something completely different, then? Should we dismiss the claim about her being able to cut atoms, then, since it's form the same source? Or should we just keep that fact, because you like it and nothing else seems to matter?


But I see that you've abandoned the speed argument and have moved on to durability.
That argument is going nowhere because your argument is circular. You haven't shown any speed feats from Diana, you're just making assumptions and those assumptions don't hold out against most of her appearances.


Well, as long as we inform them and present feats, then they can start discussing her. No need to exclude people simply because they're unaware. :smallsmile:
That's nonsense. Knowing writer X thinks character Y can do Z is not the same as knowing the character. You can only get enough of a feel of a comic book character to debate it if you regularly read comics where that character shows up. Otherwise, anyone could think Spider-Man is at the cosmic power level (he defeated Firelord by himself). Hell, they could think Hawkeye is beyond cosmic (he defeated a freaking Celestial). They could think Batman is just an average guy (he was defeated by a legless hobo) or they could think he is more powerful than a god (he defeated Darkseid). Or you could think those mooks in Gotham move at light speed, after all, Wonder Woman can't dodge all of her blows, but she can dodge Supergirl's blows. That's my point all along - you are arguing from a flawed perspective and your arguments are not logically sound.

[ben-zayb]

If you're not familiar with Carol, I don't think should be discussing her anyway.Yeah, because apparently quoting other characters based on what they believe in (regardless if it's actually strongly supported by feats) is better than objectively listening for what the other side has to offer and then analyzing based on two comparisons.../golfclap

EDIT: And yeah, LOL, using a character's weak showings surely proves their strength, right? Yeah.

[Tanuki Tales]

Oh, so you don't like the writer, so it does not count? :smallconfused:

Actually, who writes something does matter. Some authors are notorious for underselling characters, overselling others and other bits of rig-a-ma-role. I mistook Warren Ellis for another writer though. He usually does decent stuff, so I just need to find the actual statement.



Again, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it makes no sense to assume that anyone is moving at speeds even close to the speed of light within Earth's atmosphere. Marvel characters that move that fast don't that in Earth's atmosphere as well.

Sorry, but this is comic books. Only versimilitude matters in an actuality; real world physics get left at the door when they contradict what is portrayed. You might not like it, but stuff still happens. We haven't been talking about c for awhile anyways.



Actually, it's in that scan you posted yourself about Wonder Woman being able to cut an atom that she can't see, that causing a nuclear explosion and she being unsure about surviving it herself. As I mentioned several times before, that assessment about Carol's strength is from Mighty Avengers #6.

And yet they cut the atom, stopped the gate from opening and survived the resulting explosion. Not knowing if you can't survive something =/= not being able to survive it.



Why does Diana herself say something completely different, then? Should we dismiss the claim about her being able to cut atoms, then, since it's form the same source? Or should we just keep that fact, because you like it and nothing else seems to matter?

Because she was never in a nuke before? It's seriously that simple. And we know the sword can cut atoms...because Superman totally cut atoms with it. :smallannoyed:



That argument is going nowhere because your argument is circular. You haven't shown any speed feats from Diana, you're just making assumptions and those assumptions don't hold out against most of her appearances.

I've shown plenty of evidence and I'm not interested in showing it to your standards of representation. I've shown it sufficiently for most everyone else in this thread.



That's nonsense. Knowing writer X thinks character Y can do Z is not the same as knowing the character. You can only get enough of a feel of a comic book character to debate it if you regularly read comics where that character shows up. Otherwise, anyone could think Spider-Man is at the cosmic power level (he defeated Firelord by himself). Hell, they could think Hawkeye is beyond cosmic (he defeated a freaking Celestial). They could think Batman is just an average guy (he was defeated by a legless hobo) or they could think he is more powerful than a god (he defeated Darkseid). Or you could think those mooks in Gotham move at light speed, after all, Wonder Woman can't dodge all of her blows, but she can dodge Supergirl's blows. That's my point all along - you are arguing from a flawed perspective and your arguments are not logically sound.

Funny thing, no one here is thinking your gross exaggeration representations are how the characters are, even though they don't follow them religiously. Why are you trying to start some arbitrary "You need to be this tall to post in this thread" threshold? They have as much a right to post in here as you or I.



Edit:


Does anyone other than Shinken think Wonder Woman doesn't take healthy majority wins over Carol? I might give Carol 1 or 2 wins, tops, if only because she might find an outside curve way to go full-blown Binary. This is discounting Diana's "God Mode" though, which I have no clue how powerful it makes her.


Edit Edit:

I'd also like the record to show that I'm the one who has thus far made the best case for what Carol is capable of, other than hyperbole and character statements.

[Shinken]

Yeah, because apparently quoting other characters based on what they believe in (regardless if it's actually strongly supported by feats) is better than objectively listening for what the other side has to offer and then analyzing based on two comparisons.../golfclap
No, for the hundredth time, I'm saying that such methods and pointless and not logically sound. Every time I've mentioned the same methods is just to point how they simply do not add up and don't make sense.


EDIT: And yeah, LOL, using a character's weak showings surely proves their strength, right? Yeah.
Your vitriol is misguided.


Actually, who writes something does matter. Some authors are notorious for underselling characters, overselling others and other bits of rig-a-ma-role. I mistook Warren Ellis for another writer though. He usually does decent stuff, so I just need to find the actual statement.
You read comics and you didn't know who Warren Ellis was?!?!?! That... actually explains a lot.


Sorry, but this is comic books. Only versimilitude matters in an actuality; real world physics get left at the door when they contradict what is portrayed. You might not like it, but stuff still happens. We haven't been talking about c for awhile anyways.
But you were the one using real world physics in the first place, trying to calculate Superman's speed based on real world distances and even wanting to bring thermodyanamics into it. You are picking and choosing when to apply real world physics or not to get the results you want - yer another reason why this aproach is not logically sound.


And yet they cut the atom, stopped the gate from opening and survived the resulting explosion. Not knowing if you can't survive something =/= not being able to survive it.
See, that's fine, you went and answered to it, instead of ignoring it like all the times you were proven wrong (see the car analogy for reaction speed).


Because she was never in a nuke before? It's seriously that simple. And we know the sword can cut atoms...because Superman totally cut atoms with it. :smallannoyed:
It was actually Wonder Woman, but my point was only adressing how you are picking and choosing what "counts" and what doesn't. You keep saying Wonder Woman in Batwoman is a "weak showing" but it's nothing of the sort, it includes on of her most impressive feats of power (defeating the hydra).



I've shown plenty of evidence and I'm not interested in showing it to your standards of representation. I've shown it sufficiently for most everyone else in this thread.
OK, man, you think Wonder Woman wins because comic book writers have no sense of scale. Which WOnder Woman New52 books did you read, again?



Funny thing, no one here is thinking your gross exaggeration representations are how the characters are, even though they don't follow them religiously. Why are you trying to start some arbitrary "You need to be this tall to post in this thread" threshold? They have as much a right to post in here as you or I.
I never said anything even remotely close to that. :smallconfused:
Please cease your misconstructions and personal attacks, they are neither welcome nor necessary.


I'd also like the record to show that I'm the one who has thus far made the best case for what Carol is capable of, other than hyperbole and character statements.
You should also remember that from the start I've been saying that listing "feats" is pointless and not logically sound.

I guess I've had enough of versus threads for a thousand years. I'm just gonna ask some of my friends that actually read those comics.

[Metahuman1]

Shinken: Look, I'm gonna be real blunt with you.

I use to know, and still run into from time to time, people who will tell me that everyone in the justice league is an insufferably over powered Mary Sue and so are all there enemy's, and then in the same breath with out even breaking the statement into two sentences with a period, will say that there complete scrubs and every cosmic tier Marvel character could solo the DCU with out breaking a sweat cause the DC characters are that badly outclassed, by virtue of marvel is just across the board more awesome then DC, no exceptions ever for any reason.


Right now, your really starting to remind me of those people. So, I have to ask, are you sure that the reason you are so insistent that Carol Wins and Diana Loses, isn't just that you really want your Marvel Character to Win over the DC character, cause you like Marvel Better then DC as a rule?

[Fan]

No, for the hundredth time, I'm saying that such methods and pointless and not logically sound. Every time I've mentioned the same methods is just to point how they simply do not add up and don't make sense.


Your vitriol is misguided.


You read comics and you didn't know who Warren Ellis was?!?!?! That... actually explains a lot.


But you were the one using real world physics in the first place, trying to calculate Superman's speed based on real world distances and even wanting to bring thermodyanamics into it. You are picking and choosing when to apply real world physics or not to get the results you want - yer another reason why this aproach is not logically sound.


See, that's fine, you went and answered to it, instead of ignoring it like all the times you were proven wrong (see the car analogy for reaction speed).


It was actually Wonder Woman, but my point was only adressing how you are picking and choosing what "counts" and what doesn't. You keep saying Wonder Woman in Batwoman is a "weak showing" but it's nothing of the sort, it includes on of her most impressive feats of power (defeating the hydra).



OK, man, you think Wonder Woman wins because comic book writers have no sense of scale. Which WOnder Woman New52 books did you read, again?



I never said anything even remotely close to that. :smallconfused:
Please cease your misconstructions and personal attacks, they are neither welcome nor necessary.


You should also remember that from the start I've been saying that listing "feats" is pointless and not logically sound.

I guess I've had enough of versus threads for a thousand years. I'm just gonna ask some of my friends that actually read those comics.

That last statement sounds a lot like you outright saying that you just want to retreat to your echo-chamber where everyone is someone you like who agrees with you.

[LokeyITP]

Time travel seemed the least bad explanation and seemed a good zinger...didn't realize it was something normal.

Sorry, but this is comic books. Only versimilitude matters in an actuality; real world physics get left at the door when they contradict what is portrayed.
Philosophical or literary verisimilitude? In either case, I find that sentence hilarious.

[Tanuki Tales]

You read comics and you didn't know who Warren Ellis was?!?!?! That... actually explains a lot.

Yes, heavens forbid that I mixed some one up with someone else. I'm personally terrible at remembering names unless they make an explicit impact on me, and sometimes not even then. So, you want to take pot shots at my personal shortcomings as part and parcel of this debate? :smallannoyed:



But you were the one using real world physics in the first place, trying to calculate Superman's speed based on real world distances and even wanting to bring thermodyanamics into it. You are picking and choosing when to apply real world physics or not to get the results you want - yer another reason why this aproach is not logically sound.

Actually, I'm standing by my statements. Real World physics are applicable where they are not contradicted. We know that Barry and other speed force conduits can go c and in excess of c, so a Mach 6000 calc is incredibly low for someone like him. We know that Central City and Keystone are exactly on the DC Earth where Kansas City are on our Earth. We know that Metropolis is somewhere on the east coast and gets used as a metaphorical stand-in for New York, from time to time. I made all completely rational assumptions that keep in line with the verisimilitude of the setting.

Thermodynamics came in because Wonder Woman was swinging her atom splitting sword fast enough to have it literally melt through Hydra!Killer Croc's hide and then char the resulting stump beyond regeneration, faster than he could already regenerate. Once more, not breaking verisimilitude.



See, that's fine, you went and answered to it, instead of ignoring it like all the times you were proven wrong (see the car analogy for reaction speed).

Yeah...you haven't proven me wrong once in this thread except for what Diana's solo series was about. You've ignored what I said and arbitrarily called it wrong without disproving it, but that's it.



It was actually Wonder Woman, but my point was only adressing how you are picking and choosing what "counts" and what doesn't. You keep saying Wonder Woman in Batwoman is a "weak showing" but it's nothing of the sort, it includes on of her most impressive feats of power (defeating the hydra).

Sorry, but I consider taking out Darkseid's eye, hog-tying Supergirl and handing Zod and Faora their rears far more impressive than beating some supernatural mooks and a magic amped Waylon Jones. And actually, it was Superman and Wonder Woman together.




OK, man, you think Wonder Woman wins because comic book writers have no sense of scale. Which WOnder Woman New52 books did you read, again?

You failed to present any solid counter evidence against my support of Diana.

You failed to solidly disprove any of my statements concerning Diana.

You failed to provide next to any evidence in favor of Carol or even full knowledge of what she's able to do.

Concession Accepted.




I never said anything even remotely close to that. :smallconfused:
Please cease your misconstructions and personal attacks, they are neither welcome nor necessary.

Except that's exactly what you said to Ben.



You should also remember that from the start I've been saying that listing "feats" is pointless and not logically sound.

I guess I've had enough of versus threads for a thousand years. I'm just gonna ask some of my friends that actually read those comics.

You have fun with that, thank you for the thread and have a nice day! :smallsmile:


Edit:


Time travel seemed the least bad explanation and seemed a good zinger...didn't realize it was something normal.

I'm sorry, but I have not a clue what you're trying to say here.


Philosophical or literary verisimilitude? In either case, I find that sentence hilarious.

Literary. And that's just how comics book are; you have to assume physics work they way they do here, except where they obviously don't, or you can get into hours of debate over something as simple as whether or not gravity is the same across fictional Earths.

[ben-zayb]

No, for the hundredth time, I'm saying that such methods and pointless and not logically sound. Every time I've mentioned the same methods is just to point how they simply do not add up and don't make sense.And we (by we, I mean currently everyone in the thread but you) acknowledge that Feats count, and actually are, the standards. Seriously, google any VS thread in OotS, Comicvine, or Killermovies that didn't have that as standard but didn't result in fanboying, flame wars, and fallacies.
I guess I've had enough of versus threads for a thousand years. I'm just gonna ask some of my friends that actually read those comics...
.

Your vitriol is misguided.I've some bad news. Vitriol doesn't mean what you think it means. That, or you misunderstood my tone.

Basically, these are your significant contributions in this whole thread:
1. Made a one-liner challenge (which you probably already have an insistent result in mind). Of course, this does not include listing supported evidences for or against either Diana or Carol. No issue numbers or scans for references and logical basis of discussion. Nope, just... one-liner. This also didn't include any premises you want, such as "no feats" (hypothetically, how the discussion would rationally evolve after that, though, eludes me)
2. Claim Carol and Diana are likely tied (wow, it took how many posts?). Of course, this does not include listing supported evidences for or against either Diana or Carol. This also didn't include any premises you want, such as "no feats" (hypothetically, how the discussion would rationally evolve after that, though, eludes me)
3. Claim Carol can absorb ANY sort of energy. Of course, this does not include listing supported evidences for or against either Diana or Carol. Yes, there is a pattern, if you've noticed.
4. Lowball arguments for Diana by lowballing the Olympians as a whole using individual examples (pretty ironic, considering you yourself mentioned they have varying power levels themselves).
5. Claim people are lowballing Carol, after they actually provided arguments on either how or why Diana will take her down. Of course, this does not include listing supported evidences to vindicate her.
6. Claim Carol can punch like a nuke, and actually provide references. Wow, it took how many posts again? But hell, better than nothing.
7. Ah, heck, I think I'll stop here. Who am I kidding? I don't think the point will strike home, if this thread was any indication. I'll just requote some more:

You failed to present any solid counter evidence against my support of Diana.
You failed to solidly disprove any of my statements concerning Diana.
You failed to provide next to any evidence in favor of Carol or even full knowledge of what she's able to do.

This thread is doomed from that first post, really.

So guys, what have we learned today about making VS Threads? We actually read guidelines. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=3849256&postcount=1)

[Shinken]

Shinken: Look, I'm gonna be real blunt with you.

I use to know, and still run into from time to time, people who will tell me that everyone in the justice league is an insufferably over powered Mary Sue and so are all there enemy's, and then in the same breath with out even breaking the statement into two sentences with a period, will say that there complete scrubs and every cosmic tier Marvel character could solo the DCU with out breaking a sweat cause the DC characters are that badly outclassed, by virtue of marvel is just across the board more awesome then DC, no exceptions ever for any reason.


Right now, your really starting to remind me of those people. So, I have to ask, are you sure that the reason you are so insistent that Carol Wins and Diana Loses, isn't just that you really want your Marvel Character to Win over the DC character, cause you like Marvel Better then DC as a rule?

I have never even said that Carol wins. :smallconfused:

[Metahuman1]

I'm not invested enough at this point to methodically go over the last 4 pages of thread to see if you used the words "Carol Wins/won/would win" at any point, so my response instead is gonna be the following.


The impression your giving is that either Diana Loses, or, barring that, that Diana might be able to win but would be at a very obvious and steep disadvantage out the starting gate. The impression you've given so far, is that even if Carol did lose, that you feel she shouldn't loose.

Hence my curiosity as to weather or not your not coming at this form the previously described angle of "All of DC's hero's and Villains are Insufferably over powered Mary Sues and Iron Man or Thor or Hulk or Ms. Marvel or Dr. Doom could solo there whole universe backwards upside down and in there sleep no problem in nothing flat cause there laim scrubs and Marvel is just so much better and more awesome and interesting then DC!". Which, as I've said, I've run into people like this before, so I know there out there. I've just not established to my own satisfaction one way or the other weather your one of these people.

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm not invested enough at this point to methodically go over the last 4 pages of thread to see if you used the words "Carol Wins/won/would win" at any point, so my response instead is gonna be the following.

I will vouch that he never said Carol would win and felt that they were evenly matched. But he also never said in this thread that he could see Carol lose.

Hell, just to play devil's advocate, let's say that they're both dead equal in stats. What defense does Carol have against a superior close quarters combatant armed with a sword capable of literally splitting atoms?

[Shinken]

I'm not invested enough at this point to methodically go over the last 4 pages of thread to see if you used the words "Carol Wins/won/would win" at any point, so my response instead is gonna be the following.

The impression your giving is that either Diana Loses, or, barring that, that Diana might be able to win but would be at a very obvious and steep disadvantage out the starting gate. The impression you've given so far, is that even if Carol did lose, that you feel she shouldn't loose.
Well, I hope you understand that if you haven't read what I wrote, it's not really fair to assume anything.
I've said from the very start I think they are quite evenly matched and that each had a 50/50 chance of winning.


Hence my curiosity as to weather or not your not coming at this form the previously described angle of "All of DC's hero's and Villains are Insufferably over powered Mary Sues and Iron Man or Thor or Hulk or Ms. Marvel or Dr. Doom could solo there whole universe backwards upside down and in there sleep no problem in nothing flat cause there laim scrubs and Marvel is just so much better and more awesome and interesting then DC!". Which, as I've said, I've run into people like this before, so I know there out there. I've just not established to my own satisfaction one way or the other weather your one of these people.
I read both Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel and have mentioned that several times throught this thread. In fact, it seems like I'm the only person posting in this thread that actually reads Wonder Woman. What I have been saying, repeatedly, is that in her solo series her power level does not seem to be that high and I've seen nothing to believe it is indeed that high. I'm a big fan of Wonder Woman and Batwoman, the two best New 52 titles (thought I've given up on Batwoman after they changed creators). Right now, the only New52 series I'm following is Wonder Woman because I dropped everything else since it's just bad (Aquaman was good for about 6 issues, I could bear Red Hood for around 4 issues, Teen Titans was bad from the start but I gave it three issues before I gave up, Batwoman was amazing for 20 something issues but then I dropped it, Justice League had such an awful first issue I gave up on it completely).
So, no, I'm not saying "DC only has superpowered heroes but Marvel heroes still kick their asses anyway" because
a) I don't think Diana is as powerful as they are saying she is, based on the comics I read
b) I don't think Carol would kick her ass anyway
Now can you please drop this strawman you've been dragging around since page 1?


I will vouch that he never said Carol would win and felt that they were evenly matched. But he also never said in this thread that he could see Carol lose.

Hell, just to play devil's advocate, let's say that they're both dead equal in stats. What defense does Carol have against a superior close quarters combatant armed with a sword capable of literally splitting atoms?
Using range in her favor and her superior flying skills. Or she could absorb all power from Diana's bracelets, which might prevent her from even drawing the swords. Carol is no match for Diana in close quarters, though - even if they are grappling and she draws on the bracelets' divine energy to become Binary (thus being, for the sake of the argument, stronger than Diana), Diana is used to fighting creatures stronger than herself (her own words, from the first issues of New 52 WW). Diana is a more pragmatic combatant anyway, so close quarters would be a bad idea for Carol. The way I see it is more or less like this: they engage in combat, Carol realizes she can't win in melee and backs away, Diana closes in, they begin grappling, Carol draws energy from the bracelets, becomes more powerful, Diana is still kicking her ass, Carol flies away again (now faster and with more powerful blasts) and tries to win at range. Diana is very resourceful, though, and as mentioned before she is used to fighting from a disadvantage (Carol is also used to doing so, but Diana has been doing it for a lot longer). That's why I think it's 50/50.

Btw, I accidently found a mention of Carol in Iron Man #85 (before Avengers Disassembled) where she says she ""(...)aborbs energy throughout the spectrum--sound (?), light, radio waves". I don't remember her absorbing sound, though. I'm guessing this is just one writer being a complete idiot.

[Tanuki Tales]

Using range in her favor and her superior flying skills. Or she could absorb all power from Diana's bracelets, which might prevent her from even drawing the swords. Carol is no match for Diana in close quarters, though - even if they are grappling and she draws on the bracelets' divine energy to become Binary (thus being, for the sake of the argument, stronger than Diana), Diana is used to fighting creatures stronger than herself (her own words, from the first issues of New 52 WW). Diana is a more pragmatic combatant anyway, so close quarters would be a bad idea for Carol. The way I see it is more or less like this: they engage in combat, Carol realizes she can't win in melee and backs away, Diana closes in, they begin grappling, Carol draws energy from the bracelets, becomes more powerful, Diana is still kicking her ass, Carol flies away again (now faster and with more powerful blasts) and tries to win at range. Diana is very resourceful, though, and as mentioned before she is used to fighting from a disadvantage (Carol is also used to doing so, but Diana has been doing it for a lot longer). That's why I think it's 50/50.

This wouldn't happen as I explicitly set up my advocacy saying they're dead equal in stats. So Carol isn't faster or a better flyer in this hypothetical scenario, she'll need to deal with a superior fighter with a weapon who can shave her down to the bone. I'd like to see evidence of her just draining Artemis' bracers though; I know they're magic but I don't remember it being said that they're magical energy inherently. While, in this advocacy, absorbing to get a slight edge might give Carol what she needs, I doubt that'd be enough for her to go Binary and removal of the bracers apparently is what makes Diana go "God Mode" from what I saw.

[Shinken]

This wouldn't happen as I explicitly set up my advocacy saying they're dead equal in stats. So Carol isn't faster or a better flyer in this hypothetical scenario, she'll need to deal with a superior fighter with a weapon who can shave her down to the bone. I'd like to see evidence of her just draining Artemis' bracers though; I know they're magic but I don't remember it being said that they're magical energy inherently. While, in this advocacy, absorbing to get a slight edge might give Carol what she needs, I doubt that'd be enough for her to go Binary and removal of the bracers apparently is what makes Diana go "God Mode" from what I saw.

Carol is only faster after she absorbs energy. She is a better flyer because os skill - she is an experienced flyer, Diana has learned to fly quite recently. If Carol can't be a better flyer in your hypothetical scenario, then Diana couldn't be a better fighter as well, right?
The bracers are explicitly magic and they have several enchantments on them, so I think Carol would be able to drain them, since that's basically what she did in the Dr. Strange crossover (Ms. Marvel... #5? I think?). I don't think that makes her go Binary, though - that would only happen if Diana actually removed the bracers and Carol absorved that raw energy. I think Captain Marvel>Binary is a much more powerful upgrade than Wonder Woman>Goddess Diana, though. Diana has more than enough skill to still have reasonable chances to win such a fight, though, even if she is fighting from a disadvantage.

[Tanuki Tales]

Carol is only faster after she absorbs energy. She is a better flyer because os skill - she is an experienced fighter, Diana has learned to fly quite recently.

Do you have any evidence though to actually support Carol having superior flight skill?


The bracers are explicitly magic and they have several enchantments on them, so I think Carol would be able to drain them, since that's basically what she did in the Dr. Strange crossover (Ms. Marvel... #5? I think?).

Can you be more specific? Numbers get re-used from time to time when a series is relaunched. And until she absorbs energy directly from Mjolnir, Juggernaut or someone similar, I don't see you have a basis that she could just drain Diana's bracers because they're magic.


I don't think that makes her go Binary, though - that would only happen if Diana actually removed the bracers and Carol absorved that raw energy. I think Captain Marvel>Binary is a much more powerful upgrade than Wonder Woman>Goddess Diana, though.

This is only true in the sense that we have no clue how powerful Diana is in that form.


Diana has more than enough skill to still have reasonable chances to win such a fight, though, even if she is fighting from a disadvantage.

So...first it's even and now Diana is at a disadvantage? Well, I got the answer I was looking for out of playing devil's advocate.

[Shinken]

Do you have any evidence though to actually support Carol having superior flight skill?
She is called America's best pilot every issue since... well, forever, I guess. They did so again in Captain Marvel #1.


Can you be more specific? Numbers get re-used from time to time when a series is relaunched. And until she absorbs energy directly from Mjolnir, Juggernaut or someone similar, I don't see you have a basis that she could just drain Diana's bracers because they're magic.
It's from the 2006 Ms. Marvel series.


This is only true in the sense that we have no clue how powerful Diana is in that form.
We don't? Why? :smallconfused:


So...first it's even and now Diana is at a disadvantage? Well, I got the answer I was looking for out of playing devil's advocate.
I'm saying that she ends up in a disadvantage power-wise if they are starting from level ground, Carol absorbs whatever power she can from her than switches to a favorable environment. That's just simple logic. I don't know what you're looking for, but I doubt it's what I said.
EDIT: Forgot the bit about Binary being an advantage over Goddess Diana. Like I said, the power leap is much greater and Carol has years of experience being Binary, while Diana is not very familiar with how much power she has a goddess. Anyway, even with the gap Binary might have on Goddess Diana, I'd still call it even. Diana is more skilled and more pragmatic, which matters a lot.

[Tanuki Tales]

She is called America's best pilot every issue since... well, forever, I guess. They did so again in Captain Marvel #1.

That's proof that she was a good pilot and that you can extrapolate this to her superpowered flight (like you can with Hal Jordan). This isn't evidence she's a better flyer than Diana or to any degree that'd be material.


It's from the 2006 Ms. Marvel series.

Is that the dream sequence thing with Strange and Traveller?


We don't? Why? :smallconfused:

We've only seen her use it against the Olympian gods and other beings who don't really have enough feats to gauge her in that form. It's kind of saddening that she gets better support outside her own solo series.

[Kitten Champion]

Carol is only faster after she absorbs energy. She is a better flyer because os skill - she is an experienced fighter, Diana has learned to fly quite recently.
The bracers are explicitly magic and they have several enchantments on them, so I think Carol would be able to drain them, since that's basically what she did in the Dr. Strange crossover (Ms. Marvel... #5? I think?). I don't think that makes her go Binary, though - that would only happen if Diana actually removed the bracers and Carol absorved that raw energy. I think Captain Marvel>Binary is a much more powerful upgrade than Wonder Woman>Goddess Diana, though. Diana has more than enough skill to still have reasonable chances to win such a fight, though, even if she is fighting from a disadvantage.

Yes, she absorbed magic, with wacky hijinx ensuing thereafter.

Binary on paper is extremely powerful, produces and controls gravity/heat/radiation through her body with the only limitation being on how much she can wield safely. She also doesn't need to be near a heavenly power source to become Binary. Binary's technically a result of her cosmic awareness being amped up artificially and tapping into an unknown potential born from her hybrid physiology rather than Kree absorption abilities... so, something like Silver Surfer. However, Ms Marvel and Captain Marvel's Binary-self resurgences are far less spectacular than her original cosmic adventures in the 80's. It's more akin to picking up a Fire Flower in Mario's World at this point.

I don't really know Wonder Woman enough, having stopped reading her comic in the nu52 in about 6 issues... and I've forgotten most of it. If the movie adaptation I saw a part of is any indication however, they're fairly close in strength and speed. I would give the edge to Diana as Carol's standard energy attacks aren't going to do much to the high endurance of Wonder Woman while Diana's sword is a fairly deadly menace to Captain Marvel.

It's a more a matter of Pokemon-esque type-distinctions, Carol's using fire-based attacks on a rock-type of 5 or more levels ahead of her -- even if you give her a fire-stone and she evolves into her final form, they've nerfed her skills for better balance on online play in this version. Diana's attack on the other hand, is super effective.

On a more important note, I agree with SeeDarkly_X, pants are awesome. She also has a cat named Chewie, so there's that.

[Shinken]

That's proof that she was a good pilot and that you can extrapolate this to her superpowered flight (like you can with Hal Jordan). This isn't evidence she's a better flyer than Diana or to any degree that'd be material.
:smallconfused:
Diana learned to fly, what, 10 issues ago?


Is that the dream sequence thing with Strange and Traveller?
Yeah, tt's the Traveller thing, but you can never tell if it was a dream sequence or not with Traveller. That's his whole point.



We've only seen her use it against the Olympian gods and other beings who don't really have enough feats to gauge her in that form. It's kind of saddening that she gets better support outside her own solo series.
So you mean that you don't know because it can't fit your ABC logic. OK.

[Tanuki Tales]

I don't really know Wonder Woman enough, having stopped reading her comic in the nu52 in about 6 issues... and I've forgotten most of it. If the movie adaptation I saw a part of is any indication however, they're fairly close in strength and speed. I would give the edge to Diana as Carol's standard energy attacks aren't going to do much to the high endurance of Wonder Woman while Diana's sword is a fairly deadly menace to Captain Marvel.

She's fought equal with Clark, spanked Supergirl and manhandled Zod and Faora in a 2 v 1. Her and Carol are nowhere equal in stats, I was just playing devil's advocate to see if Shinken could come up with legitimate reasons for Diana not gutting Carol like a carp if their statistics were literally comparable. He failed to do so.

[Shinken]

Binary on paper is extremely powerful, produces and controls gravity/heat/radiation through her body with the only limitation being on how much she can wield safely. She also doesn't need to be near a heavenly power source to become Binary. Binary's technically a result of her cosmic awareness being amped up artificially and tapping into an unknown potential born from her hybrid physiology rather than Kree absorption abilities... so, something like Silver Surfer. However, Ms Marvel and Captain Marvel's Binary-self resurgences are far less spectacular than her original cosmic adventures in the 80's. It's more akin to picking up a Fire Flower in Mario's World at this point.
Yeah, she has never been quite back on her old power level, but if there is one thing that could do it, it would be Zeus' lightning, I thnk.


I don't really know Wonder Woman enough, having stopped reading her comic in the nu52 in about 6 issues... and I've forgotten most of it. If the movie adaptation I saw a part of is any indication however, they're fairly close in strength and speed. I would give the edge to Diana as Carol's standard energy attacks aren't going to do much to the high endurance of Wonder Woman while Diana's sword is a fairly deadly menace to Captain Marvel.
Oh, #6 is when they changed artist, right? That was a tough hit to take.


It's a more a matter of Pokemon-esque type-distinctions, Carol's using fire-based attacks on a rock-type of 5 or more levels ahead of her -- even if you give her a fire-stone and she evolves into her final form, they've nerfed her skills for better balance on online play in this version. Diana's attack on the other hand, is super effective.
This is so hilarious I have no choice but to agree.


On a more important note, I agree with SeeDarkly_X, pants are awesome. She also has a cat named Chewie, so there's that.
Funnily enough, when ScrewAttack did Rogue vs Wonder Woman, Diana lost precisely because she does not wear pants.


She's fought equal with Clark, spanked Supergirl and manhandled Zod and Faora in a 2 v 1. Her and Carol are nowhere equal in stats, I was just playing devil's advocate to see if Shinken could come up with legitimate reasons for Diana not gutting Carol like a carp if their statistics were literally comparable. He failed to do so.
Could you please stop being so passive-aggresive? Please?

[Metahuman1]

Well, I hope you understand that if you haven't read what I wrote, it's not really fair to assume anything.
I've said from the very start I think they are quite evenly matched and that each had a 50/50 chance of winning.


Point of order. I didn't say I didn't read it. I said it wasn't worth it to be to go back and not just read 4 pages of posts a second time but to put them under the magnifying glass looking for specific key words by eye. Bit of a difference.

That said, even if I give you comparable raw physical ability (I remain unconvinced of this but I'll give it too you for sake of argument here for just moment.), the flaw in your assessment is that your badly underestimating just how much being a vastly more skilled and more pragmatic Hand to Hand combatant tips it in Diana's favor when they close, and over estimating how fast Carol can absorb enough to to Binary.

Diana's not gonna let Carol Live, or at the very least maintain physical functionality, long enough to actually absorb a significant amount of energy, or get away and go back to trying to keep her distance and wear her down with ranged attacks. Diana's gonna shut her down, hard, and mercilessly, right then. Because she knows better then to do anything else on an opponent like that. She knows better then to let any fight run longer then it needs too. And even by your own admission, Carol's not a bad hand to hand combatant, but she's not competing with "Princess of a mystical warrior race with over 1,000 years of training and having been hand tutored by a literal god of war in the arts of war and combat, including close quarters and hand to hand combat."

[Anteros]

And we (by we, I mean currently everyone in the thread but you) acknowledge that Feats count, and actually are, the standards.

Just popping in to say that this actually isn't true. There are people that pop up on virtually every single Vs thread to disagree with this line of logic. We've just learned that it's pointless to argue. If someone thinks because a character did something a handful of times in a 50 year span it should overrule every other depiction of character, then no amount of arguing is going to change their mind and I'm not going to waste my time.

Don't be fooled into thinking that just because you're a part of the loudest contingent that everyone must agree with you.

[Ranxerox]

I read both Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel and have mentioned that several times throught this thread. In fact, it seems like I'm the only person posting in this thread that actually reads Wonder Woman. What I have been saying, repeatedly, is that in her solo series her power level does not seem to be that high and I've seen nothing to believe it is indeed that high.


I've been reading Wonder Woman since Greg Rucka's run and have all the nu52 issues. In her solo series she is plenty powerful. If she seems less powerful, that is only because when not tied to someone else's storyline her first inclination is always to dialogue her way out situations rather than fight even when it would be simpler to kick some butt. That doesn't make her less powerful; it just makes her less violent and stupid.

When an angry Hades turned the size a skyscraper (a bit more impressive than conning convenience store clerk out of 20 dollars and some gas as your American Gods comparison would lead us to think Olympians were doing), Diana was not the least bit scared of him because she knew still handle him. Skyscraper size gods aren't out of Wonder Woman's league. However, she wasn't interested in physically besting him. She instead handled Hades by giving him the gift of being able to love himself, because she knew that was a necessary first step in being to care about others.

Diana has twice beaten the goddess Artemis, who has demonstrated massive strength and durability, but last time they fought Diana let Artemis win so that Diana could submit to her. This is no doubt part of the loving submission philosophy that Amazons follow, and in the long run will probably bring Artemis over to her side.

Choosing non-violent and less violent solution when she can, doesn't make Wonder Woman less powerful than she is in other books. If you wanted to show that she was less powerful in her solo book you would need to show her losing to someone should would have beat in Justice League, and the only people she has lost to are Artemis, who she has also beat twice, and First Son, who is clearly meant to be Uber. Everyone else she has beaten including gods and despite your claims to the contrary DC Olympians are actually quite bad@ss.

[ben-zayb]

Just popping in to say that this actually isn't true. There are people that pop up on virtually every single Vs thread to disagree with this line of logic. We've just learned that it's pointless to argue. If someone thinks because a character did something a handful of times in a 50 year span it should overrule every other depiction of character, then no amount of arguing is going to change their mind and I'm not going to waste my time.

Don't be fooled into thinking that just because you're a part of the loudest contingent that everyone must agree with you.Ditto. No amount of arguing is going to change people into thinking something isn't canon simply because they think they have the say on what a character is capable of.

And hey, I thought of including you, but decided against it seeing your only post in this thread is off-topic. Had you posted it in a "Let's Discredit Tanuki Tales" thread on the other hand...

[Anteros]

It's mildly amusing that you accuse me of being off topic when my only replies have been in direct responses to things others have said.

That said, I have nothing against Tanuki, you, Fan or anyone else and I'm not trying to discredit anyone. It's simply clear that we use a different metric to measure these things and the argument is unproductive. I don't consider Tanuki's arguments to be necessarily incorrect. They're generally well formed, and back by the source material. However, I do consider him to be working with a different interpretation of the character than I am for purposes of these threads. Tanuki's version of the Flash can react in femtoseconds and is completely untouchable by anyone who doesn't move at light speed. My version of the Flash is the quick guy who regularly gets beaten up by a not particularly fast gorilla. There is literally no way we are ever going to come to any type of agreement on the capabilities of the character. So while I may occasionally poke fun at his logic, it's meant primarily in jest and not to discredit. Tanuki actually accused me of personally attacking him as well, but if you'll actually read my post I never did so. What I did do was point out the fact that he's completely dismissive of any evidence that contradicts his claims with the continual excuse "I think that was stupid writing so it doesn't count!" Pointing out the way someone is behaving, or pointing out the flaws in their reasoning are not personal attacks.

The only reason I jumped in here was because you were trying to use the fact that no one else was posting a contrary argument to shout someone else's opinion down and make it seem less valid.

[Shinken]

I've been reading Wonder Woman since Greg Rucka's run and have all the nu52 issues. In her solo series she is plenty powerful. If she seems less powerful, that is only because when not tied to someone else's storyline her first inclination is always to dialogue her way out situations rather than fight even when it would be simpler to kick some butt. That doesn't make her less powerful; it just makes her less violent and stupid.

When an angry Hades turned the size a skyscraper (a bit more impressive than conning convenience store clerk out of 20 dollars and some gas as your American Gods comparison would lead us to think Olympians were doing), Diana was not the least bit scared of him because she knew still handle him. Skyscraper size gods aren't out of Wonder Woman's league. However, she wasn't interested in physically besting him. She instead handled Hades by giving him the gift of being able to love himself, because she knew that was a necessary first step in being to care about others.

Diana has twice beaten the goddess Artemis, who has demonstrated massive strength and durability, but last time they fought Diana let Artemis win so that Diana could submit to her. This is no doubt part of the loving submission philosophy that Amazons follow, and in the long run will probably bring Artemis over to her side.

Choosing non-violent and less violent solution when she can, doesn't make Wonder Woman less powerful than she is in other books. If you wanted to show that she was less powerful in her solo book you would need to show her losing to someone should would have beat in Justice League, and the only people she has lost to are Artemis, who she has also beat twice, and First Son, who is clearly meant to be Uber. Everyone else she has beaten including gods and despite your claims to the contrary DC Olympians are actually quite bad@ss.
Oh, I agree completely, I think you misunderstood me. There are several incredibly powerful beings among DC Olympians, it's just that most of them are pretty average (poor, poor pegaus...). Diana is very impressive and powerful, but skycrapper size gods are not out of Carol's league as well. I'm not even saying Diana "seems less powerful" in her solo series, I'm saying writers in other series make gross exaggerations and throw around expressions they don't really understand (speed of light and femtosecond are the most egregious examples).



That said, even if I give you comparable raw physical ability (I remain unconvinced of this but I'll give it too you for sake of argument here for just moment.), the flaw in your assessment is that your badly underestimating just how much being a vastly more skilled and more pragmatic Hand to Hand combatant tips it in Diana's favor when they close, and over estimating how fast Carol can absorb enough to to Binary.
Wait a second. Have you ever read a comic in which Carol absorbs energy and regains her Binary powers? How do you know if I am over estimating or not?


Diana's not gonna let Carol Live, or at the very least maintain physical functionality, long enough to actually absorb a significant amount of energy, or get away and go back to trying to keep her distance and wear her down with ranged attacks. Diana's gonna shut her down, hard, and mercilessly, right then. Because she knows better then to do anything else on an opponent like that. She knows better then to let any fight run longer then it needs too. And even by your own admission, Carol's not a bad hand to hand combatant, but she's not competing with "Princess of a mystical warrior race with over 1,000 years of training and having been hand tutored by a literal god of war in the arts of war and combat, including close quarters and hand to hand combat."
Diana is not a murderer, man. She can't know how tough Carol is, so she is not going to punch her with all her strength or even use her sword if she can help it (unless for some reason she thinks Carol is a very serious threat to others). Not even Brian "100 Bullets" Azzarello portrays Diana as some kind of magical Punisher, so I think you're off base here.
If Diana was the ruthless murderer you're painting her as, then I think she would win most times. However, that's simply not how she is.

[Fan]

It's mildly amusing that you accuse me of being off topic when my only replies have been in direct responses to things others have said.

That said, I have nothing against Tanuki, you, Fan or anyone else and I'm not trying to discredit anyone. It's simply clear that we use a different metric to measure these things and the argument is unproductive. I don't consider Tanuki's arguments to be necessarily incorrect. They're generally well formed, and back by the source material. However, I do consider him to be working with a different interpretation of the character than I am for purposes of these threads. Tanuki's version of the Flash can react in femtoseconds and is completely untouchable by anyone who doesn't move at light speed. My version of the Flash is the quick guy who regularly gets beaten up by a not particularly fast gorilla. There is literally no way we are ever going to come to any type of agreement on the capabilities of the character. So while I may occasionally poke fun at his logic, it's meant primarily in jest and not to discredit. Tanuki actually accused me of personally attacking him as well, but if you'll actually read my post I never did so. What I did do was point out the fact that he's completely dismissive of any evidence that contradicts his claims with the continual excuse "I think that was stupid writing so it doesn't count!" Pointing out the way someone is behaving, or pointing out the flaws in their reasoning are not personal attacks.

The only reason I jumped in here was because you were trying to use the fact that no one else was posting a contrary argument to shout someone else's opinion down and make it seem less valid.

Gorilla Grodd is a speed force user who's nearly as quick as the flash on top of being a telepath in New 52.

Nice try.

[Tiki Snakes]

Just popping in to say that this actually isn't true. There are people that pop up on virtually every single Vs thread to disagree with this line of logic. We've just learned that it's pointless to argue. If someone thinks because a character did something a handful of times in a 50 year span it should overrule every other depiction of character, then no amount of arguing is going to change their mind and I'm not going to waste my time.

Don't be fooled into thinking that just because you're a part of the loudest contingent that everyone must agree with you.

This is an important point, well made.


Gorilla Grodd is a speed force user who's nearly as quick as the flash on top of being a telepath in New 52.

Nice try.

That's only a relevant point if the topic is specifically the most up to date issues of New 52. As far as I understand it, it has never previously been the case. Excepting the inevitable silver age one-comic storyline hijinks, of course.

[Fan]

This is an important point, well made.



That's only a relevant point if the topic is specifically the most up to date issues of New 52. As far as I understand it, it has never previously been the case. Excepting the inevitable silver age one-comic storyline hijinks, of course.

No this topic in specific has been referring to Nu52 Diana. Nu52 Diana is only an argument because her feats come from the dubious method of power scaling, the theory that a character can preform the same feats as lesser or equal characters in the universe.

Post Crisis Diana has people above Carol Danvers level all the time for breakfast, and Post Crisis Diana gets The God Wave and even Binary with direct access to a Stars worth of energy doesn't have a prayer.

Also the only one who was guilty of One Story Hijinks in Silver Age was really Superman and Green Lantern. Flash was fairly consistent and was the guy who ended up breaking The Anti Monitors Armor, demonstrating that he was faster and stronger than every other earth superhero together in The Silver Age when it came to putting his life on the line to get it done.

[Tiki Snakes]

At the risk of putting words in Anteros's mouth, the point you were responding to was talking about the difference between his interpretation of The Flash and Tanuki's, using the idea that Gorilla Grodd is a Flash Villain capable of actually fighting the Flash as a point of contrast. By context, it is clear that he is talking in general and not about the new 52, on account of him describing Grodd as a slow gorilla, rather than a gorilla speed-force-user. The fact that he is talking about a Flash facing off against a non-speed-force Grodd is unavoidable on account of that fact, and that does in fact line up with how Grodd was portrayed in the rest of his 60+ years of comics.

And by Hijinks, I mean the general comics tendancy to have something odd happen that utterly changes everything only to be resolved by the last page of the comic, rather than anything character specific. I could very much see a comic from that age with the central conceit that the flash is suddenly the slowest man on the planet and everyone, even Gorilla Grodd, now has super speed. I was simply allowing for the existence of odd corner cases like this when otherwise claiming that Grodd hasn't had Super Speed until the New 52.

[Shinken]

At the risk of putting words in Anteros's mouth, the point you were responding to was talking about the difference between his interpretation of The Flash and Tanuki's, using the idea that Gorilla Grodd is a Flash Villain capable of actually fighting the Flash as a point of contrast. By context, it is clear that he is talking in general and not about the new 52, on account of him describing Grodd as a slow gorilla, rather than a gorilla speed-force-user. The fact that he is talking about a Flash facing off against a non-speed-force Grodd is unavoidable on account of that fact, and that does in fact line up with how Grodd was portrayed in the rest of his 60+ years of comics.

And by Hijinks, I mean the general comics tendancy to have something odd happen that utterly changes everything only to be resolved by the last page of the comic, rather than anything character specific. I could very much see a comic from that age with the central conceit that the flash is suddenly the slowest man on the planet and everyone, even Gorilla Grodd, now has super speed. I was simply allowing for the existence of odd corner cases like this when otherwise claiming that Grodd hasn't had Super Speed until the New 52.

It's not like Grodd is the only non-speedster in the Flash's rogue gallery, anyway. I admit I'm not following the New 52 Flash (I might buy these next few issues, though, since Wally is finally coming back), but unless any given villain can tap into the speed force, that villain is powerless when it comes to the Flash.

[Metahuman1]

Wait a second. Have you ever read a comic in which Carol absorbs energy and regains her Binary powers? How do you know if I am over estimating or not?


Diana is not a murderer, man. She can't know how tough Carol is, so she is not going to punch her with all her strength or even use her sword if she can help it (unless for some reason she thinks Carol is a very serious threat to others). Not even Brian "100 Bullets" Azzarello portrays Diana as some kind of magical Punisher, so I think you're off base here.
If Diana was the ruthless murderer you're painting her as, then I think she would win most times. However, that's simply not how she is.

Because for it to work as you've described it, it would have to be darn near instantaneous. Meaning one Panel, Carol, next panel, Binary. Given that it traditionally takes more then one panel for her to get back up to Binary's power scale, we come out at "not fast enough."


No, she's not, and hell, if we factor in the fact that there good guys, the fight probably ends in under minute with no one injured, neither combatant even properly warmed up, and everybody going to get coffee and swap stories. This, however, is a vs. thread, were assuming there both gonna go full out. When Diana goes full out, she can, has, and will, kill the other person, and can, has, and will, be ruthlessly efficient about it.

Now, fighting someone else, lower caliber, with out extenuating circumstances, Diana will hold back, she will give a concussion, she will break bones if she must, a sleeper hold to make the other person loose conciseness is entirely possible, but because there's a sufficient gap in there ability's the other opponent isn't a threat, and unless there's outside circumstances such as "oh, if you don't kill this guy he's got his finger on the launcher to a nuclear arsenal so take him out or half the planet get's vaporized.", she won't kill him, and probably won't even hurt him more then strictly necessary to subdue him unless he's just an especially offensive and vile piece of work (like, say, a lot of better known members of Batman's Rogues Gallery.) But she's not fighting someone in spiderman or captain america or deathstroke or batman's weight class. No, she's fighting Captain Marvel, she's fighting someone, that for the sake of argument, I'm assuming is very close to her in terms of raw power. And in a context were morals are off and bloodlust is on.



As an aside, Wally's coming back? I though Wally was already there since New 52 issue 1's as Kid Flash in New 52's Teen Titans? (Mind, I almost instantly gave up that comic series when it came out I hated it so much so I might be misremembering that was someone else.)

[Fan]

At the risk of putting words in Anteros's mouth, the point you were responding to was talking about the difference between his interpretation of The Flash and Tanuki's, using the idea that Gorilla Grodd is a Flash Villain capable of actually fighting the Flash as a point of contrast. By context, it is clear that he is talking in general and not about the new 52, on account of him describing Grodd as a slow gorilla, rather than a gorilla speed-force-user. The fact that he is talking about a Flash facing off against a non-speed-force Grodd is unavoidable on account of that fact, and that does in fact line up with how Grodd was portrayed in the rest of his 60+ years of comics.

And by Hijinks, I mean the general comics tendancy to have something odd happen that utterly changes everything only to be resolved by the last page of the comic, rather than anything character specific. I could very much see a comic from that age with the central conceit that the flash is suddenly the slowest man on the planet and everyone, even Gorilla Grodd, now has super speed. I was simply allowing for the existence of odd corner cases like this when otherwise claiming that Grodd hasn't had Super Speed until the New 52.

Gorilla Grodd fought the Flashes outside of the Silver Age with Telepathy and Illusions. Other times he either came prepared with tech that let him give them a chase / shoot them with lasers, or attacked their minds directly.

[SeeDarkly_X]

As an aside, Wally's coming back? I though Wally was already there since New 52 issue 1's as Kid Flash in New 52's Teen Titans? (Mind, I almost instantly gave up that comic series when it came out I hated it so much so I might be misremembering that was someone else.)

That was Bart Allen, revealed as Bar Tor from the future.
Wally West has not yet been introduced
(or to my knowledge even mentioned) in the New52U.
Past that... don't get me started on New52 Titans. :smallmad:

[Metahuman1]

That was Bart Allen, revealed as Bar Tor from the future.
Wally West has not yet been introduced
(or to my knowledge even mentioned) in the New52U.
Past that... don't get me started on New52 Titans. :smallmad:

Hey, I said I gave it up, after 1 issue, for a reason. Though that was likely why I didn't remember it was Bart and not Wally. Though that doesn't make me any less pissed off at the handling of his character.

[Shinken]

That was Bart Allen, revealed as Bar Tor from the future.
Wally West has not yet been introduced
(or to my knowledge even mentioned) in the New52U.
Past that... don't get me started on New52 Titans. :smallmad:

He's supposed to show up in the next few issues, with a costume somewhat reminiscent of his Flash costume, but black and blue.


Because for it to work as you've described it, it would have to be darn near instantaneous. Meaning one Panel, Carol, next panel, Binary. Given that it traditionally takes more then one panel for her to get back up to Binary's power scale, we come out at "not fast enough."
Really? In what issues did she take more than one panel to enter Biary mode?


No, she's not, and hell, if we factor in the fact that there good guys, the fight probably ends in under minute with no one injured, neither combatant even properly warmed up, and everybody going to get coffee and swap stories. This, however, is a vs. thread, were assuming there both gonna go full out. When Diana goes full out, she can, has, and will, kill the other person, and can, has, and will, be ruthlessly efficient about it.
If you're ignoring her personalities, we don't have anything else to discuss. A character without personality is not a character.

[Metahuman1]

He's supposed to show up in the next few issues, with a costume somewhat reminiscent of his Flash costume, but black and blue.


Really? In what issues did she take more than one panel to enter Biary mode?


If you're ignoring her personalities, we don't have anything else to discuss. A character without personality is not a character.

Wasn't there an iteration of Reverse Flash that used the color scheme at one point?

What Issue did she not take more then one panel to go Binary? Disclaimer, if she started adsorbing in a previous issue and then the first time we see her in a given issue she's Binary, it doesn't count.

Ignoring personality's is the nature of Vs. threads. Why do you think every couple of weeks the characters from My Little Pony are in a death battle with yet another opponent? How do you think Goku and Superman actually GET into a fight instead of just humoring each other with a little sparring match on a deserted planet were all the pick up is a bit of sweat and some bruises? Even the comics company's will totally ignore personality's to make a fight happen, look at Avengers vs. X-men and Civil War and tell me with a straight face that every single one of those characters was perfectly in keeping with there established personality and character traits the entire time.

[Shinken]

Wasn't there an iteration of Reverse Flash that used the color scheme at one point?
I don't think so. With blue?


What Issue did she not take more then one panel to go Binary? Disclaimer, if she started adsorbing in a previous issue and then the first time we see her in a given issue she's Binary, it doesn't count.
Captain Marvel #15. One panel she absorbs energy, the other panel she is Binary.
However, I just checked and it looks like officially her power works only in the electromagnetic spectrum, so I don't think she would be able to absorb energy from the bracers, it would have to be the actual lightning and that only shows up when Diana removes the bracers.
On the other hand, checking Captain Marvel #15 proved that Carol can indeed become Binary at will. It risks destroying a whole galaxy, but if you're going to insist that Diana is a ruthless murderer, Carol might as well be an intergalatic genocide engine. :smalltongue:


Ignoring personality's is the nature of Vs. threads. Why do you think every couple of weeks the characters from My Little Pony are in a death battle with yet another opponent? How do you think Goku and Superman actually GET into a fight instead of just humoring each other with a little sparring match on a deserted planet were all the pick up is a bit of sweat and some bruises? Even the comics company's will totally ignore personality's to make a fight happen, look at Avengers vs. X-men and Civil War and tell me with a straight face that every single one of those characters was perfectly in keeping with there established personality and character traits the entire time.
You're confusing motivations, narrative and personality. Also, I don't understand why bad writing justifies ignoring part of a character (personality). It's the same as ignoring Flash's speed because "reaction speed of a femtosecond, but gets hit by boomerangs" is simply bad writing as well.
Also, of course you can think of reasons why X or Y would happen - even ScrewAttack does it in their videos, including the examples you mentioned. That's what good writing is, after all. Sometimes characters go outside their boundaries and that's a good thing - that's change, that's conflict, that's exactly what a narrative needs. After all, it's not "is character X stronger than character Y" it's "who would win in a fight". Otherwise Batman would lose pretty much every Vs thread by default.
So, yeah, like I said before, I'm not going to ignore a character's personality in a debate because a character without personality is not a character. If you want to keep doing it, again like I said before, I believe there is nothing else for us to discuss.

[SeeDarkly_X]

Wasn't there an iteration of Reverse Flash that used the color scheme at one point?

The Jay Garrick Flash (both pre and post Flashpoint) has blue in his costume... Also Max Mercury had a bit of blue too...
but I suspect you might be thinking of the time Barry Allen was given a Blue Lantern ring: http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120218222741/marvel_dc/images/f/f2/Flash_Blue_Lantern_Corps_002.jpg

[Moak]

Wasn't there an iteration of Reverse Flash that used the color scheme at one point?



There was the blue flash, clone of Barry Allen, from the MAGNIFIC '90 telefilm
http://www.burnteffects.com/old_tvseries/flash/flash_blue02.JPG

[Shinken]

There was the blue flash, clone of Barry Allen, from the MAGNIFIC '90 telefilm
http://www.burnteffects.com/old_tvseries/flash/flash_blue02.JPG

Man, I loved that series. Mark Hamill as the Trickster...

[Metahuman1]

There was the blue flash, clone of Barry Allen, from the MAGNIFIC '90 telefilm
http://www.burnteffects.com/old_tvseries/flash/flash_blue02.JPG

I think it was this one, somehow it got stuck in my head that that was Reverse Flash from the comics somewhere and that made me concerned that "Yes, were bringing Wally West back, and were gonna surprise everyone by making him another Jason Todd!!! Cause we don't like him but you do and we want to make you feel bad for that!!!!"

[Shinken]

I think it was this one, somehow it got stuck in my head that that was Reverse Flash from the comics somewhere and that made me concerned that "Yes, were bringing Wally West back, and were gonna surprise everyone by making him another Jason Todd!!! Cause we don't like him but you do and we want to make you feel bad for that!!!!"

I think that's pretty much what is going to happen, though.
Btw, Wizard's Ultimate DC article had a similar concept for Wally. He came back from the future as Black Flash to stop Barry from causing the end of the world as we know it. Really wanted the New 52 to be closer to that article... (well, except for Wonder Woman. You can't really top Azzarello.)

[Shinken]

I'm pretty sure we're going to see Carol being ridiculous badass on next month's Guardians of the Galaxy. The guardians have been kidnapped. They have weapons out capable of taking down Gamora and Draxx. Last panel is Carol flying to the rescue.