Strength 0 / "Helpless"

[Chester]

When a PC's strength is reduced to 0 via something like a hag's touch or Ray of Enfeeblement, etc., the PC is described as being "helpless"

RAI: Is a "helpless" character with a strength of 0 able to speak? Blink? What can he actually do aside from sit there like a rag doll?

[Psyren]

This varies depending on the specific ability that made you helpless. For instance, a paralyzed creature can't speak or blink, but one that was simply tied up could. A sleeping character can speak too, though not voluntarily (talking in their sleep.)

Since all Str 0 says is that you lie helpless on the ground, I'd allow blinking and very weak speech (probably not strong enough to supply a verbal component.)

[BWR]

I'd say it's up to the DM. Sometimes it could be complete paralysis, unable to so much as blink, sometimes it could be ineffectual spasming and no control or real strength but technically able to move an arm or leg, maybe some times you can wave a hand or nod or something. Generally, I wouldn't allow any sort of real communication or action in combat, but depending on the origin of the Strength loss they might be able to communicate or slowly move about outside of combat (enough to fall off the bed or something). IIRC, paralysis specifically prevents speaking, while being helpless doesn't, so you might be able to make some simple phrases, like calling for help.

[Cog]

It's kind of convoluted, but the Condition Summary (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless) rules walk you through it:

A Helpless character is treated as having Dexterity 0.

A character with Dexterity 0 is treated as paralyzed.

A paralyzed character is helpless (!) and the key bit: unable to act.

Talking is a free action, but is an action, so a helpless character cannot do this. Purely mental actions, however, are allowed.

[Psyren]

It's kind of convoluted, but the Condition Summary (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless) rules walk you through it:

A Helpless character is treated as having Dexterity 0.

A character with Dexterity 0 is treated as paralyzed.

A paralyzed character is helpless (!) and the key bit: unable to act.

Talking is a free action, but is an action, so a helpless character cannot do this. Purely mental actions, however, are allowed.

Helpless doesn't actually say you can't act. Just that you are at an opponent's mercy.

Some of the ways of making you helpless remove your ability to act, e.g. unconsciousness. But Str 0 doesn't say that either.

Being tied up makes you helpless for instance, but if it kept you from acting, you couldn't attempt the Escape Artist check to get out! (You also wouldn't be able to make the check to throw off a Hold Person spell.)

[Chester]

The strength 0 occurred from a failed save against a Sea Hag's frightful appearance.

All it says in the MM is that a player whose strength is reduced to 0 is "helpless." Therein lies the interpretation . . .

[Andezzar]

Minor nitpick: Ray of Enfeeblement cannot reduce the target's STR to 0:
The subject’s Strength score cannot drop below 1.

[Psyren]

^ See above - he said it came from a Sea Hag, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hag.htm#seaHag) which can get you to 0.

EDIT: Ah, he mentioned Ray in the OP - yeah that's an error.

[Particle_Man]

Roy seems to be able to talk.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html

[HighWater]

When a PC's strength is reduced to 0 via something like a hag's touch or Ray of Enfeeblement, etc., the PC is described as being "helpless"

RAI: Is a "helpless" character with a strength of 0 able to speak? Blink? What can he actually do aside from sit there like a rag doll?

Ray of Enfeeblement is incapable of reducing a person to Strength 0:

A coruscating ray springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target. The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject’s Strength score cannot drop below 1.
(Won't be relevant once my post is finished, I will take too long and someone will beat me to it!)

As for what a character would be able to do, DM's call really... (see below)


A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed.

Main difference seems to be that a strength-helpless person falls down, while a dex-helpless person stays upright unless someone or something tips them over.

The really interesting bit though: a Dex 0 person becomes paralysed, paralysed persons have an "effective" dexterity AND a strength score of 0, and helpless targets (such as those with 0 strength) are treated as having a dexterity of 0. So if you strictly follow the RAW chain, a reduction to either 0 STR or 0 DEX will also reduce the other stat to 0. Which is kinda weird and not completely true, helpless "targets" are treated as having a dex of 0, which is not the same as them actually having a dex of 0 (which saves escape artist), same goes for the word "effective"... Still, DEX and STR appear to be -very- strongly linked, RAW-wise and RAI-wise.

Following from that, I think RAI a 0 STR should make a character about as effective as a 0 DEX. That means, aside from falling over:
- no movement whatsoever, no crawling darn it!
- they drop everything they were holding,
- they should be able to breathe and the blinking reflex should still work, but anything more than a rasping breath should be impossible (so no talking and definitely no casting)
- you might allow them to blink, but any conversation that demands more than a "yes, blink once, no blink twice" should be out of the question. I'd say emulate a paralysis condition called locked-in-syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locked-in_syndrome)

Of course, that's just my RAI...

Edit:
Now that I thought about it a bit more, it seems the designers got paralysis a bit... wrong when you compare it to "real world use of the term".
The way I see Dex-helplessness (as described in "Paralysed" the DnD condition) vs Str-helplessness as described:
- Dex-helplessness, "DnD Paralysis", is being unable to tell your muscles to do something ELSE. Instead, they keep doing what they were doing at the moment of paralysis: tensed muscles stay tensed, untensed muscles stay untensed. This results in characters being frozen in place and is reflected by the fact that they don't even drop anything. This condition does not actually exist in the real world, at least according to my knowledge, but you may think in the general direction of spasticity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spasticity), which features tensed muscles while lacking control (although to be honest, that's still very much unlike what happens in DnD Paralysis, so really just forget comparing it to a real-world condition). Talking is changing muscle tensions, which can't be done with dex 0, so no talking and no moving!
- Str-helplessness is being unable to tense up your muscles. This is actually very much like real-world paralysis (usually caused by nerve signals not getting through, but having no actual muscle strength would accomplish the same). The voluntary-muscles go to their default: inaction. Only the life-critical, non-voluntary muscles, which are operated through a somewhat different system, may continue functioning. This is why I suggested locked-in syndrome (a form of real world paralysis) as a model. No moving! The vocal chords are not non-voluntary, so no talking! If you wanna go really strict, no blinking either.

Conclusion:
Dex-0 is defined as DnD paralysis --> being frozen in place, which has nothing to do with Real-World paralysis (both in cause and effect).
Str-0 is defined as falling over, helpless, which in my interpretation looks a lot like Real-World paralysis (maybe not in cause which depends on the fluff, but definitely in effect).

What I think RAI would be, is to treat STR 0 as real world paralysis (and to treat DEX 0 as "Frozen in place").

[ericgrau]

Strength is the ability to exert force on the environment. Dexterity is the ability to move. So I'd say you can barely move but you cannot even stand up nor exert any force on anything. I'd say you could see, talk, maybe even turn your head but that's iffy. I'd consider it like someone barely coming out of a coma (except that you're all there mentally) or like a 900 pound man with no use of his arms or legs either. IMO you could use verbal components but not somatic components. "Helpless" also means you are subject to a coup de grace.

For the purpose of numbers for AC, skills and what no your dex should be 0, if not just plain "no, you can't do that at all". But while you can't leave your square nor do nearly anything meaningful physically, IMO you aren't totally paralyzed, and dex 0 is a hair worse than str 0.

But I can understand the interpretation that being unable to exert force could even stop you from speaking.

I'd say:
con 0 < dex 0 < str 0 (dead, paralyzed, limp).
cha 0 < int 0 < wis 0 (mentally gone, still there but unable to think and out cold, out cold and still able to think but deeply troubled)

See also: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss
You'll notice dex 0 has all the drawbacks of str 0 and a little more.