Proof that They Win

[Ionathus]

Okay. So. We're facing down a god-killing abomination who seems to be quite real, several very, very powerful wizards, and at least three divine entities who want a piece of the action. The fate of the world does seem to hang in the balance pretty substantially. And I wouldn't put it past Rich to give some sort of subversion of the typical Saved the World ending. But I do think this story is going to end well. And I have more proof than the Oracle's (shaky) prophecy that Elan will get a happy ending.

Check out the last panel on this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html) comic. Unless there's something I don't know about goblin lifespans or flash-forwards in time, I'm pretty sure this last panel is many years in the future. And it would be tough to claim it as a retcon before the story got serious, since this was definitely after the Snarl was introduced.

Maybe everyone had already agreed on this. Maybe not. Just bringing it up. Thoughts?

[Keltest]

Okay. So. We're facing down a god-killing abomination who seems to be quite real, several very, very powerful wizards, and at least three divine entities who want a piece of the action. The fate of the world does seem to hang in the balance pretty substantially. And I wouldn't put it past Rich to give some sort of subversion of the typical Saved the World ending. But I do think this story is going to end well. And I have more proof than the Oracle's (shaky) prophecy that Elan will get a happy ending.

Check out the last panel on this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html) comic. Unless there's something I don't know about goblin lifespans or flash-forwards in time, I'm pretty sure this last panel is many years in the future. And it would be tough to claim it as a retcon before the story got serious, since this was definitely after the Snarl was introduced.

Maybe everyone had already agreed on this. Maybe not. Just bringing it up. Thoughts?
While that is proof that that particular goblin and hydra are not unmade, it doesn't really say much about how the story ends. For all we know the would could vaporize and they escape to the riftworld.

[Mrc.]

Alternatively, it could just mean that Redcloak was successful in his plan to bring about an era of prosperity for Goblinkind. Thus, not only was the goblin able to create such a business, he was also able to attract a wealth of potential clientele from amongst many monsters that were previously oppressed. Several of whom can be seen entering the hut. Nice idea though!

[dps]

Or instead of being a flash-forward, it could just be Goblin Dan's daydream.

[kgato503]

Or it could be a marketing gimmick/eccentric antic. A little theater make up, a fake beard, and presto! Instant age-class upgrade. He doesn't even need to change his clothes. Plus, he can get away with all those zany old man antics:smallbiggrin:.

Although, looking at this does make me realize something. Either Dan never left the valley (and thus his BBQ Hut is within the valley, as are the rest of his staff and patrons, and the staff evidently don't leave either), or else he doesn't actually remember how he ended up with the hydra (how he got it out of the valley with the huge 30+headed reptile is another topic entirely). Considering the difference in ground color and mountain color, it could be that the hut is not in the same location that the hydra originally was at. Perhaps he dons a costume to hand-wave the memory loss thing. Then he can make the story as exciting as he wants each time, and everyone will just shrug and blame the story differences on old age. That, and he may be trying to put off any potential gold-diggers.

Personally, I kinda like the idea of this being a disguise. It sort of makes it funnier.

[ti'esar]

I seem to recall that Rich said in the WXP commentary that this was indeed part of the purpose of that scene - to serve, along with Elan's prophecy, as a way of telling the readers "it might get a little scary but everything's going to work out in the end".

(For a certain value of work out, anyway.)

[Porthos]

It's also been mentioned that the Oracle's future existence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html) also points to the idea that the world won't be Unmade.

Well that and the minor issue that Rich is already on record that (paraphrasing) he's not writing a grimdark story. :smallwink:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Okay. So. We're facing down a god-killing abomination who seems to be quite real, several very, very powerful wizards, and at least three divine entities who want a piece of the action. The fate of the world does seem to hang in the balance pretty substantially. And I wouldn't put it past Rich to give some sort of subversion of the typical Saved the World ending. But I do think this story is going to end well. And I have more proof than the Oracle's (shaky) prophecy that Elan will get a happy ending.

Check out the last panel on this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html) comic. Unless there's something I don't know about goblin lifespans or flash-forwards in time, I'm pretty sure this last panel is many years in the future. And it would be tough to claim it as a retcon before the story got serious, since this was definitely after the Snarl was introduced.

Maybe everyone had already agreed on this. Maybe not. Just bringing it up. Thoughts?

So, while the goblin lifespan is indeed quite short (barring a few notable exceptions), it is long enough that, if that scene is indeed a flashforward, it is an indicator that the world will not be destroyed, at least not any time soon. Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that we win. It could, after all, be showing how the goblins do well. Also, as pointed out, it may just be gimmick done by goblin Dan. I don't think I ever realized this before, so thanks for pointing it out!

[Kish]

I think a final-panel throwaway joke is far down the list of reasons the world is not going to be destroyed.

But then, I also think there's no good reason to call the Oracle's prophecy for Elan "shaky," so what do I know?

[Bavarian itP]

Actually, the whole Oots was the story of how Dan made his first million gold pieces, and the strip ended with 326. Everything that came after is just bonus material.

[Mike Havran]

That panel is good news to goblins (there is a happy successful elder goblin and there is a civilization where 1M gold is a meaningful wealth). It doesn't say much about the PCs or PC races.

[b_jonas]

It's not that far into the future. The goblins are already eating hydraburders in the feast of founding Gobbotopia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0705.html).

[FujinAkari]

And I have more proof than the Oracle's (shaky) prophecy that Elan will get a happy ending.

Really?

You're going to use a throw-away joke from the final panel of a strip over something the author has specifically said was intended to assure people the strip wasn't going to end with the entire world being destroyed? Are you sure about that? :P


I seem to recall that Rich said in the WXP commentary that this was indeed part of the purpose of that scene - to serve, along with Elan's prophecy, as a way of telling the readers "it might get a little scary but everything's going to work out in the end".

(For a certain value of work out, anyway.)

Not quite. What he said was that the prophesies were meant to assure people that the story would ultimately not end with the destruction of the world (Elan's) but that bad things were going to happen before it was done (Durkon's). He didn't mention Goblin Dan at all, IIRC

[Quild]

It could also be wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff

[Ionathus]

Or instead of being a flash-forward, it could just be Goblin Dan's daydream.

That was my other thought. But since there were no dots leading into a bubbly-bordered panel, we can conclusively prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was not a daydream, obviously. (sarcasm)


I think a final-panel throwaway joke is far down the list of reasons the world is not going to be destroyed.

But then, I also think there's no good reason to call the Oracle's prophecy for Elan "shaky," so what do I know?

But it is a reason, yes?
And as for your other point:


What he said was that the prophesies were meant to assure people that the story would ultimately not end with the destruction of the world (Elan's) but that bad things were going to happen before it was done (Durkon's).

Yes, but I wouldn't for a second take Elan's prophecy as a guarantee. Knowing the trickery of wordplay - especially with prophecies, wishes, and similar supernatural requests - I was very wary of the phrasing. "Will this story have a happy ending" is very, very different from "will this story end happily," "will the end of this story be happy," etc.

For all we know, their indefinite happy ending could very well have been Girard's epic-level "Happy Ending" illusion. Now, I think that would be a really crummy way to do it, but I've learned not to discount anything in OotS until I've proven it conclusively impossible, and usually not even then. :smallamused:

[Jay R]

http://www.cambridgefilmfestival.org.uk/assets/images/_large/princess-bride-5.jpg

They do not get eaten by the god-killing abomination at this time.

[Kish]

For all we know, their indefinite happy ending could very well have been Girard's epic-level "Happy Ending" illusion.
I wish to formally disassociate myself from this We. The Oracle did not say, "No, but you will have a happy moment and believe the story is over."

(Aside: it wasn't epic.)

[The Smallest]

While that is proof that that particular goblin and hydra are not unmade, it doesn't really say much about how the story ends. For all we know the would could vaporize and they escape to the riftworld.

I don't think Goblin Dan is strong enough to pull a hydra with that many heads through the rift.

[137beth]

I wish to formally disassociate myself from this We. The Oracle did not say, "No, but you will have a happy moment and believe the story is over."

(Aside: it wasn't epic.)

I am also not part of such a "We."

[ti'esar]

I also wish to disassociate myself from this "we". You may consider the prophecy "shaky", but you may also choose to consider Redcloak Lawful Neutral. One isn't really that much more a rejection of the in-story facts and the Giant's stated intent then the other.

[Porthos]

Considering Rich's own statements about what type of story he is writing, I think, I am highly skeptical that he is going to have OotSworld get unraveled when all is said and done.

...

Call it a hunch. :smallwink:

[Vinyadan]

Nope. That was an older goblin hobo, who killed the original goblin, took his clothes, had a bath and, after feeding on the hydra for a week, understood that there was business there.

It's the Evil Goblinoid Dream: upward social mobility achieved through hard work, preceded by murder & theft.

[Ionathus]

I am also not part of such a "We."

I have rapidly turned this conversation in the wrong direction, and for that I'm sorry.

My first mistake was in using the w word for anything, ever, in analysis. I've seen arguments break out about that, and I don't want to be that guy. Please forgive my default turn of phrase.

My second must have been in somehow painting this as a serious issue. I'm on board with all of you, especially since reading all of the wonderful comments by Rich which I'd never seen before. I don't *truly* expect him to end the world in this story, and my most solid thesis statement is not some throwaway joke located some ways back in the 300s of the archive. I just meant to add another point of evidence to the list, maybe point out an interesting fact to people who may have forgotten it from first read-through.

I will stand by my own personal opinion that any of the Oracle's prophecies are dangerous to accept without any further evidence. I do think that Elan's prophecy, with some large and annoying leaps in logic, could have been fulfilled in the illusion (after all, that strip's title was "Happy Ending"). But like I said earlier, I would pretty much never expect Rich to do that, as it would be infuriatingly pseudo-literal and, for the most part, simply bad writing.



They do not get eaten by the god-killing abomination at this time.

They're kissing again. Do we have to read the kissing parts?

[Jay R]

They're kissing again. Do we have to read the kissing parts?

Some day you may not mind so much.

[King of Nowhere]

yes, that panel is proof that the world will not be unmade. every few months someone make a post about that. you're not the first to notice it.

[Loreweaver15]

Don't worry, guys, it was an Argall We. :P

Seriously, though, there's a few things that are definitive proof of a happy ending, but what's really great about OOTS is that it's still gripping; we want to know HOW and to what extent, even though we know there'll be happy grins when the story ends.

[b_jonas]

Besides the Oracle's prophecy to Elan, there's one more reason why I'm sure the story will have a happy ending. In an interview, Rich says (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17145565&postcount=4)



My comic is a comedy adventure fantasy comic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world, essentially, and they're out to stop him and conquer their personal problems at the same time. Hopefully not in that order, so they get their personal problems taken care of before the final battle. And it's a comedy.