Utilizing Sanctum Spell's drawback

[NoACWarrior]

After talking on the lvl 0 spell page and what the 1/2 level rules apply to a few of us found it was possible to stuff NI of them into a single ring of spell storing.

Then TuggyNE suggested that using the drawback of Sanctum spell made a spell 1 level lower when cast making it possible to stuff lvl 1 spells modified with sanctum spell into a ring of spell storing in the same manner as lvl 0 spells.

I know it might be possible to abuse crafting with it - making a 4th level wand which is really a reduced 5th level spell.

Regarding spell slots, sanctum feat does NOT allow a spell to be prepared or cast in a lower level slot, it only modifies the spell when it is cast with the -1 level.
Regarding caster level, sanctum feat does NOT allow a spell to have a lower caster level than required to cast the spell initially in it's unmodified state, and once the level is modified, the caster level is still from the unmodified state.
Regarding level of a prepared but un-cast spell with sanctum spell applied, the spell level doesn't actually change until the spell is cast.

With the above in mind, what other ways can we abuse Sanctum spell metamagic feat's drawback?

[Kraken]

It allows you to use cheaper metamagic rods.

[Rubik]

How about combining lower level spells for Versatile Spellcaster? Sacrifice two 1st level spells for a 3rd level spell, since it counts as a 2nd level spell when you cast it?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I've always thought about using it to load level 4 spells into Spell storing weapon (orb of X anyone?), but I'm not really sure if that would be allowed by RAW.

[NoACWarrior]

It allows you to use cheaper metamagic rods.
I always read a metamagic rod as checking the spell level before the spell is cast and then applying the metamagic feat right before the spell is actually cast.
Wow thanks Kraken, that would definitely work!!!


How about combining lower level spells for Versatile Spellcaster? Sacrifice two 1st level spells for a 3rd level spell, since it counts as a 2nd level spell when you cast it?
Unless Sanctum Spell also lowers the listed spell level on a spells known list, I don't think this will work.


I've always thought about using it to load level 4 spells into Spell storing weapon (orb of X anyone?), but I'm not really sure if that would be allowed by RAW.
Ah! forgot about spell storing weapons. As long as the spell is a targeted spell (not AoE) it can be loaded. One issue is that spell storing weapons only hold 1 spell total.

Edit: strikethru is incorrect... Red is corrected.

[Piggy Knowles]

It's a nice way to extend the spell level cap on contingency.

[Ruethgar]

It must also be noted that a sanctum spell is always considered one level lower until it is cast in a sanctum, not just when it is cast outside the sanctum. It is a subtle distinction I know, but a significant one considering that you don't craft a spell cast, you craft a spell prepared. Sanctum a 0 level spell and you are golden as far as crafting. If the custom item guidelines are not in order, then at least spell traps will make you money.

[TuggyNE]

The nastiest trick I know of is casting Sanctum arcane fusion inside an arcane fusion, and so forth. NI level 1 spells from a single fifth-level slot.

[TiaC]

It leads to infinite spells.

Arcane thesis'd Twinned Sanctum Mage's lucubration is a 5th level spell that is cast out of an eighth level slot. It allows you to recover two spells of up to 5th level you've cast, including itself.

[NoACWarrior]

It must also be noted that a sanctum spell is always considered one level lower until it is cast in a sanctum, not just when it is cast outside the sanctum. It is a subtle distinction I know, but a significant one considering that you don't craft a spell cast, you craft a spell prepared. Sanctum a 0 level spell and you are golden as far as crafting. If the custom item guidelines are not in order, then at least spell traps will make you money.

I don't know where you got your reading from, but I got mine from Complete Arcane:



A sanctum spell has an effective spell level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (see below), but if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level. A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.

Which means that the effective spell level is only adjusted when it is actually cast... Which I don't understand why people are saying arcane infusion is possible with that interpretation...

I still don't understand how arcane fusion works even with the correct reading.

[TiaC]

I don't know where you got your reading from, but I got mine from Complete Arcane:



Which means that the effective spell level is only adjusted when it is actually cast... Which I don't understand why people are saying arcane infusion is possible with that interpretation...

There's a difference between "if not cast in the sanctum" and "if cast not in the sanctum" the first one can be read as "whenever you are not casting this spell in your sanctum".

[NoACWarrior]

AHHA! Bad wording on WoTC part... Sorry I failed to see that.

So ok, as far as I am understanding the text of the feat, until the spell is cast in a sanctum zone it is considered as its level -1, for any purpose.

Great now I understand why people are making these recommendations.

So a metamagic rod would WORK, thanks Kraken!

But lets deal with Arcane Fusion... in order for the nova to go off you need to know a 4th level or lower sorcerer spell... you'd need to apply sanctum spell to the chosen spells spontaneously without increasing the cast time longer than 1 standard action. Besides applying some sort of quicken, how would you do that?

[Darrin]

I've always thought about using it to load level 4 spells into Spell storing weapon (orb of X anyone?), but I'm not really sure if that would be allowed by RAW.

Also Glyph Seals (Magic Item Compendium) or Shallantha's delicate disk (Lost Empires of Faerun).

[dextercorvia]

But lets deal with Arcane Fusion... in order for the nova to go off you need to know a 4th level or lower sorcerer spell... you'd need to apply sanctum spell to the chosen spells spontaneously without increasing the cast time longer than 1 standard action. Besides applying some sort of quicken, how would you do that?

Rapid Meatmagic feat from CM lets you get around the extra time for adding metamagic to spontaneous spells. You can get it at level 9, just before you get Arcane Thesis.

[shaikujin]

I think it's possible to use this to reduce level 9 spells (or any level for that matter) to level 0.

2 dragons with the Spellhoarding dragon psychosis and Sanctum Spell.

Dragon 1 casts Wish outside Sanctum, making it an effective level 8 spell.

Dragon 2 counterspells it with a level 8 spell, and thus can learn Wish as a level 8 spell.

Dragons 2 now casts the level 8 Wish outside his sanctum at the first Dragon. Effective spell level is now 7.

Both Dragons repeat this process until they both learn Wish as a level 0 spell.

Repeat for all other spells.

[Inevitability]

If that'd work... :smallamused:

Wait, would this trick still work in pathfinder? Because the whole 'cantrips can be cast indefinitely' seems really interesting with this... *Grins evilly*

[NoACWarrior]

I think it's possible to use this to reduce level 9 spells (or any level for that matter) to level 0.

2 dragons with the Spellhoarding dragon psychosis and Sanctum Spell.

Dragon 1 casts Wish outside Sanctum, making it an effective level 8 spell.

Dragon 2 counterspells it with a level 8 spell, and thus can learn Wish as a level 8 spell.

Dragons 2 now casts the level 8 Wish outside his sanctum at the first Dragon. Effective spell level is now 7.

Both Dragons repeat this process until they both learn Wish as a level 0 spell.

Repeat for all other spells.

Whoa.... Nice find!!

It is from DrM so probably won't be allowed by most DMs, and I can't find the exact wording for it so I'll trust that you made it legal.
But how to get dragons to give you lvl 0 spells of the strongest spells out there is another issue haha.

[Endarire]

I proposed here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12965.0) using Sanctum Spell in Pathfinder to make any level 1 spell a level 0 spell, thereby allowing it to be cast at will. (Read entire thread.)

[Rubik]

Rapid MeatmagicUhhhhhhhhh...

[unseenmage]

Lets you use War Spells (check my sig) effectively without the increased spell level.

[Necroticplague]

Uhhhhhhhhh...

Its the Meatmagus's form of Rapid Saucery.

[dextercorvia]

Uhhhhhhhhh...

I had to reread it 3 times to get what I had done. :smallredface: But then I lol'd.

[Inevitability]

*Insert lame fastfood pun here*

[shaikujin]

Whoa.... Nice find!!

It is from DrM so probably won't be allowed by most DMs, and I can't find the exact wording for it so I'll trust that you made it legal.
But how to get dragons to give you lvl 0 spells of the strongest spells out there is another issue haha.

I'm not sure if forum rules allow me to quote the whole thing, but the gist of it is using the Spellcatching ability.

It's an improved form of counterspelling, that only requires the dragon to use a spell of the same level and school/descriptor to counterspell it.

Paraphrasing the last sentence:
If the spellcatching succeeds, the spell is countered and immediately added to it's Spellhoard (it's equivalent of a spellbook).



More cheese:
Generic Arcane caster can cast any arcane of divine spells as Arcane.

The 2 Spellhoarding dragons can now learn ALL divine or arcane spells via spellcatching and reduce the spell level to 0.

STP erudite can now learn all spells, arcane or divine as level 0 spells (thus he's not affected by the discipline power limitation that allows him to only learn up to level 8 spells)

All spell components now simply becomes 2 (or was it 4?) extra PP.

We have now proved that these spells exists as powers. And can be psychic chirugery'd to other psionic characters.

On top of that, along comes the Ardent with the ACF that allows him to chose different powers in his mantle. Since we have proven that all spells can exist as powers, he can add them directly to his mantle.

If DM requires it to be done the hard way, then a lot of Dragonwrought Kobold, or polymorph or rebuilding cheese is required.

So an Ardent (or other psionic classes that can find and pay for the above Erudite) at level 1, will be able to manifest any spells from level 0 to level 9, as a level 0 power.

[Eldariel]

It allows you counting as higher level for the purposes of Dragonsblood Pool [Complete Mage magical location]. Then it allows the slots gained counting as higher level for an even higher level slots, getting you level 3 slots on level 1, effectively. If you're Warmage or such (and thus can enter Rainbow Servant on level 2). It also, among other things, allows you to circumvent spell level limitations and such. Arcane Fusion comes to mind. And it's obviously nice for stacking metamagic with Arcane Thesis.

[Ruethgar]

I am pretty sure the spellcatching wouldn't work as you would catch an already metemagiced wish. So you wouldn't add an 8th level normal Wish to your book, you would add an 8th level Sanctum Wish to your book.

[NoACWarrior]

hmm good point on that, besides the fact that the source is from dragon magazine.

but it is a neat way to pass the time in a dragon community - casting lvl 0 wishes haha.

I just thought about this earlier this morning.

Pearls of power - they retrieve used prepared spells complete with metamagic feats, and since sanctum spell reduces the level by 1 in ALL other cases beside casting in a sanctum zone, cheaper retrieval of a single spell.

[Rubik]

Scribe scrolls and craft wands without saving throws. They count as being lower level, and are thus cheaper and less time-consuming to create.

You can also buy spellcasting services of various spells at 1 level lower, though I don't think any self-respecting caster would let you cheat them like that.

[Necroticplague]

Scribe scrolls and craft wands without saving throws. They count as being lower level, and are thus cheaper and less time-consuming to create.

Bonus points: make wands of sanctum cantrips. Since the price of making wands multiplies all its factors together, the wand of a level -1 spell costs -750*CL, uses up -30*CL XP, and consumes -375*CL raw materials, taking up -.75CL. Plus, most cantrips don't have a save anyway, just to add insult to injury. This, oddly enough, means that making these things actually gives you gold, raw materials, free XP, and a good portion of the day. or the negative crafting time means you make a wand 18 hours per CL before you think to make it.

[NoACWarrior]

Scribe scrolls and craft wands without saving throws. They count as being lower level, and are thus cheaper and less time-consuming to create.

You can also buy spellcasting services of various spells at 1 level lower, though I don't think any self-respecting caster would let you cheat them like that.

I don't buy spellcasting services no more - I just hire NPCs at the rate of their level squared and have them cast all their spells for me. But if you only wanted a single spell at a high caster level, spell services are the way to go.

The scrolls and wands aren't too bad - especially when you want buffing spells, you couldn't change the minimum caster level though, since you need to provide the slot at a higher level than the spell level displayed.