The Shadow Sun Ninja

[Immabozo]

So in short, I was told to have a backup character ready to go incase mine dies this coming weekend, as that is entirely possible for a number of reasons.

So I was looking at creating a shadow sun ninja, but I am not sold on it. The ability that caught my eye was the one that, as a standard action, can make a touch attack to deal damage equal to unarmed strike, plus wis, and the next round heal a target for damage dealt as a free action.

This is either a great ability, or an utter craptastic waste of my turn. So I was hoping for clarification.

Since this is a standard action, can I full attack with it? Can I flurry of blows with it? 4 touch attacks for about 11 damage each (2D6 + wis, or so) and then healing that amount as a free action to any target touched is a great ability.

(P.S. this is level 12)

Or

Is it like a spell and that is all you get? Then dealing 11-ish damage one round and then free healing 11ish damage next round is so suboptimal at level 12 that it makes me want to cry.

Other than this ability, is the Shadow Sun Ninja from ToB any good? Any build suggestions?

I am limited to two books. Any two books, but only two books. That includes feats, spells, items, etc. Of course basic game rules dont need to come from one of those two. Skills also are exempt, but skill tricks are not.

I was thinking Unarmed Swordsage x/monk 1/shadow sun ninja x, so my two books would be PHB and ToB. Any help would be appreciated!

[Kuulvheysoon]

Unfortunately, your second reading is the correct one. It states "as a standard action". You only get one standard action per turn (normally), so it cannot be used as part of a full attack or a FoB.

Yes, it kind of sucks. Why do you think I picked it as an Iron Chef Ingredient?:smallbiggrin:

[Crake]

get someone to cast greater mighty wallop on you before you use it? then you'll deal and heal a decent chunk of damage

[Immabozo]

Unfortunately, your second reading is the correct one. It states "as a standard action". You only get one standard action per turn (normally), so it cannot be used as part of a full attack or a FoB.

Yes, it kind of sucks. Why do you think I picked it as an Iron Chef Ingredient?:smallbiggrin:

Because you are a cruel, cruel man.

Well war hulk can use massive swing as a standard action, allowing it to use it multiple times if he/she gets multiple attacks. Although that one specifies that it can be used on the multiple attacks.

Thats what gave me the idea.

I wish it was the first reading. Then it would be usable and good. Not as broken as my DM seems to think it is, but it would at least make the class playable.

So any build suggestions Oh Great Chairman?

[Techwarrior]

Another useful way to up the healing done by the attack is to manage to get Sneak Attack dice added to your touch attack, or any other ability that adds damage to all attacks, touch attacks, flanked foes, or those denied dex. At base, it is a pretty sad ability, but it can be pumped into usefulness.

My personal favorite Shadow Sun Ninja build is something along the lines of Rogue 3/Monk 1/Swordsage 1/Shadow Sun Ninja X/Swordsage +X with a bunch of items to boost the dice done. (Rogue's Vest, Bracers of the Hunter, and a Necklace of Natural Attacks with the Deadly Precision enhancement are the main ones) The thing is, with your restriction on books, most of that is out of your reach. :smallsigh:

[Kuulvheysoon]

Because you are a cruel, cruel man.You shouldn't compliment me so.:smallredface:


So any build suggestions Oh Great Chairman?Well, Hamish Half-Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15892764&postcount=285) and Anh of Lost Mountain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15892671&postcount=278) both placed highly with the judges.

Hamish was my personal favorite, to tell you the truth, but Anh did manage to get Pounce in his build.

[Immabozo]

get someone to cast greater mighty wallop on you before you use it? then you'll deal and heal a decent chunk of damage

Can Greater Mighty Whallop be permanencied?

[Immabozo]

Another useful way to up the healing done by the attack is to manage to get Sneak Attack dice added to your touch attack, or any other ability that adds damage to all attacks, touch attacks, flanked foes, or those denied dex. At base, it is a pretty sad ability, but it can be pumped into usefulness.

My personal favorite Shadow Sun Ninja build is something along the lines of Rogue 3/Monk 1/Swordsage 1/Shadow Sun Ninja X/Swordsage +X with a bunch of items to boost the dice done. (Rogue's Vest, Bracers of the Hunter, and a Necklace of Natural Attacks with the Deadly Precision enhancement are the main ones) The thing is, with your restriction on books, most of that is out of your reach. :smallsigh:

That is true and worth a look. can power attack be made to work with unarmed strikes?

Are there any tob maneuvers that would work?

Greater Magic Fang permanancied would certainly be a step in the right direction


You shouldn't compliment me so.:smallredface:

Well, Hamish Half-Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15892764&postcount=285) and Anh of Lost Mountain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15892671&postcount=278) both placed highly with the judges.

Hamish was my personal favorite, to tell you the truth, but Anh did manage to get Pounce in his build.

You are too much my friend.

I'll look at those builds, thanks!

[Darrin]

If you're trying to do something interesting with Shadow Sun Ninja, then Person_Man's Blinky the Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=6304375&postcount=12) is probably worth a look.

[Techwarrior]

Power Attack works, as it's a melee (touch) attack. It might not work on your normal unarmed strikes, due to the confusion between a few rules (mostly whether Unarmed Strike counts as a Light weapon and is disqualified, or a Natural Weapon and therefore does qualify), but that doesn't affect the Touch.

The Burning Blade boost can easily pump up your damage by 1d6+Initiator Level. Alternatively, talk to them about Dancing/Raging Mongoose. It's one of those maneuvers that seems to get ruled all over the place, but you might be able to get a second attack during that standard action with it to boost the damage further. Since the Touch is a Standard Action, you really can't combine it with Strike maneuvers.

Otherwise, look at the stances. Punishing Stance will up the damage by 1d6 while Assassin's Stance gives 2d6 Sneak Attack. This might actually be a case where the fifth level stance Giant's Stance would be useful, upping your die code by another size while you Touch.

[dextercorvia]

If you can get Sickening Grasp (Reserve feat from CM) then every time you make your touch attack, your opponent has to save or be sickened. That isn't a huge debuff, but it is decent. Requires you to have a 3rd level necromancy spell, though.

Why are you wasting one of your books on Monk1 if you are already an Unarmed Swordsage?

[Immabozo]

Power Attack works, as it's a melee (touch) attack. It might not work on your normal unarmed strikes, due to the confusion between a few rules (mostly whether Unarmed Strike counts as a Light weapon and is disqualified, or a Natural Weapon and therefore does qualify), but that doesn't affect the Touch.

The Burning Blade boost can easily pump up your damage by 1d6+Initiator Level. Alternatively, talk to them about Dancing/Raging Mongoose. It's one of those maneuvers that seems to get ruled all over the place, but you might be able to get a second attack during that standard action with it to boost the damage further. Since the Touch is a Standard Action, you really can't combine it with Strike maneuvers.

Otherwise, look at the stances. Punishing Stance will up the damage by 1d6 while Assassin's Stance gives 2d6 Sneak Attack. This might actually be a case where the fifth level stance Giant's Stance would be useful, upping your die code by another size while you Touch.

wow, some great advice here, thank you. I am going to look into this!

[Immabozo]

If you can get Sickening Grasp (Reserve feat from CM) then every time you make your touch attack, your opponent has to save or be sickened. That isn't a huge debuff, but it is decent. Requires you to have a 3rd level necromancy spell, though.

Why are you wasting one of your books on Monk1 if you are already an Unarmed Swordsage?

Shadow sun ninja levels stack with monk levels for a whole list of things, but if no monk, you get none of it. So it seemed like a good idea. Also, there are some feats I think might be useful. Also rogue is in the book and sneak attack could be useful

[Immabozo]

So learning maneuvers/stances, is that like wizards and spells? A level 5 maneuver/stance requires level 9 to learn?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Being Necropolitan or having an undead minion in the party helps tremendously, it basically turns the 1st level ability into infinite healing for the party.
And yeah, you want to optimize the amount it dishes out.

Beyond that, the class isn't horrible but it's definitely subpar. Just advancing swordsage is probably a stronger option, though as a ToB PrC, it does have the benefit of advancing all martial adept initiator levels...

[Immabozo]

So after hours of searching, I have found what I think to be the perfect build. The two books are ToB and XPH. The classes are Unarmed Swordsage and psychic warrior into shadow sun ninja. Race is Half Giant. With claws of the beast, at ML 11, the claws can be manifested to 4D6 (powerful build is my hero), assassin stance can add +2D6 sneak attack, or Giant stance to get me up to 5D6 (although the fluff is a little screwy) and Expansion can get me up another 2 size categories to, I assume, 8D6.

And then there are maneuvers and other psychic powers to get that up higher.

And it is a touch attack, so I should only miss on a 1. Man, I love this idea. Even if it is sub-optimal. It will be fun! Healing while dealing damage an unlimited number of times per day and having a crap ton of skills.

thoughts? tweaks? suggestions?

[dextercorvia]

So after hours of searching, I have found what I think to be the perfect build. The two books are ToB and XPH. The classes are Unarmed Swordsage and psychic warrior into shadow sun ninja. Race is Half Giant. With claws of the beast, at ML 11, the claws can be manifested to 4D6 (powerful build is my hero), assassin stance can add +2D6 sneak attack, or Giant stance to get me up to 5D6 (although the fluff is a little screwy) and Expansion can get me up another 2 size categories to, I assume, 8D6.

And then there are maneuvers and other psychic powers to get that up higher.

And it is a touch attack, so I should only miss on a 1. Man, I love this idea. Even if it is sub-optimal. It will be fun! Healing while dealing damage an unlimited number of times per day and having a crap ton of skills.

thoughts? tweaks? suggestions?

Giant's stance won't work after Expasnion (unless you are starting incredibly small). It let's you deal damage as if you were a size larger (to a maximum of Large). That means it won't check your size until you are about to deal damage. If you are already Expanded to large+, it won't add any more damage.

Edit: And, Powerful Build does not let you start out with 4d6 claws.

[Biotroll]

I always liked Noxius from Iron Chef and waited my opportunity to play him: link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8337459&postcount=109)
It needs some talking with DM to allow it as it has some alignment issues, but otherwise it looks nice. It is specializing in touch attacks and getting most out of them. The best abilities come online a bit late though. Still, it might be worth looking at.

[Immabozo]

Giant's stance won't work after Expasnion (unless you are starting incredibly small). It let's you deal damage as if you were a size larger (to a maximum of Large). That means it won't check your size until you are about to deal damage. If you are already Expanded to large+, it won't add any more damage.

Edit: And, Powerful Build does not let you start out with 4d6 claws.

Good thing my build has slightly changed. Actually, more than slightly changed.

Graft weapon a 2 handed weapon, expansion plus assassin's stance should get me a gargantuan 2 handed weapon and 6D6 + 2D6 sneak attack + wis with psionics and maneuvers to buff that.

I am psyched about this build

EDIT:


I always liked Noxius from Iron Chef and waited my opportunity to play him: link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8337459&postcount=109)
It needs some talking with DM to allow it as it has some alignment issues, but otherwise it looks nice. It is specializing in touch attacks and getting most out of them. The best abilities come online a bit late though. Still, it might be worth looking at.

Although cool, it uses more books than I am allowed

[Big Fau]

I don't know why people are saying SSN is a bad PrC. It's listed as a +1 on the Tiers list (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1573.0), now if I could just dig up the old post summarizing why it's good I'd repost it here (not my post though and I forget who originally posted it).

[Immabozo]

I don't know why people are saying SSN is a bad PrC. It's listed as a +1 on the Tiers list (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1573.0), now if I could just dig up the old post summarizing why it's good I'd repost it here (not my post though and I forget who originally posted it).

I'm unfamiliar with that list. Swordsage is tier 3 and psychic warrior is... tier 3? So SSN would get me tier 2?

[Naanomi]

I don't know why people are saying SSN is a bad PrC. It's listed as a +1 on the Tiers list (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1573.0), now if I could just dig up the old post summarizing why it's good I'd repost it here (not my post though and I forget who originally posted it).
It's not hard to +1 a class when the class is Monk...

[Big Fau]

I'm unfamiliar with that list. Swordsage is tier 3 and psychic warrior is... tier 3? So SSN would get me tier 2?

Read the first post:


Terminology, or What does that mean, an "up two" PrC? Is a Tier 4 class with a +2 PrC now Tier 2?

We get those questions a lot whenever someone new to the concept gets introduced to it. The short answer to the latter question is no, a Tier 4 class with a "+2" PrC is not automatically Tier 2.

The more detailed answer:

Perhaps it is best to have a fresh start for the (confusing) terminology in this system. In brief, we have categorized PrCs into five broad categories:
Marvelous prestige classes

These PrCs improve the power of their entry classes dramatically, either by building on strengths or by adding powerful new ones. Expect characters with these to blow their base-classed peers out of the water. Or to earn FLAC from the DM, because some of these open doors to ridiculous power. To be included in this set, a prestige class must raise the logical entry's tier by one or more (though not every PrC that boosts a logical entry by one tier is a marvelous prestige class). What constitutes a Tier 0 or lower character is subject to board-wide consensus.
For historical reasons, and for brevity, we call these the "up two" or +2 prestige classes.

Good to Great prestige classes

These PrCs generally improve their entry classes substantially, without affecting game balance quite so abundantly as marvelous prestige classes (they may still gain a tier).
For historical reasons, and for brevity, we call these the "up one" or +1 prestige classes.

Mediocre prestige classes

These PrCs are roughly on par with their logical entries overall, trading strengths in certain areas for strengths in others, or providing moderate gains for a moderate investment (e.g. required feats or unfavorable multiclassing). Expect characters with these to stay on very much the same power level.
For historical reasons, and for brevity, we call these the "even" or +0 prestige classes.

Bad to Awful prestige classes

These PrCs are generally strictly inferior to their logical entries, losing out on important features in order to gain things that are likely not to matter in the long run, without screwing you over quite as much as catastrophic prestige classes (they may still drop a tier).
For historical reasons, and for brevity, we call these the "down one" or -1 prestige classes.

Catastrophic prestige classes

These PrCs completely fail to do whatever they were trying to do, or make heavy sacrifices for little to no gain. Expect characters with these to be unplayable without heavy optimization effort, or some cunning trick. In some cases, it is preferable to play a straight Truenamer. Again, to be included in this set, a PrC must lower the logical entry's Tier by one or more (though not every PrC that lowers a logical entry by one tier is a catastrophic prestige class).
For historical reasons, and for brevity, we call these the "down two" or -2 prestige classes.

Basically, the set of marvelous prestige classes is the treasure chest, the set of catastrophic prestige classes is the poison well. Mediocre prestige classes don't give much, but also don't take much; the logical entry is exactly as well-off or screwed as before. The other two sets are continuums between those three.

[dextercorvia]

I think it is +1 for the expected point of entry -- Monk.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Unarmed damage is actually fairly easy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127732-3-X-Increasing-Size-Effective-Size-Unarmed-Damage-Reach&p=7081777#post7081777) to optimize.
Doing 12d8+wis damage as a standard action and healing an equal amount for free may not be gamebreaking but it's certainly not useless.
If you throw in a level of Shiba Protector or Intuitive attack and two levels of Paladin + Serenity you can be pretty much Wisdom SAD as a melee character with respectable damage, to hit, AC and saves.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I assume since you can with Emerald Razor and the Wraithstrike and Find the Gap spells...power attacking with the unarmed touch attack is also allowed, right? There is a Hammer Fist feat in Dragon Compendium (or dragon mag; or races of faerun) to make a 2-handed unarmed strike for 1.5x str to damage (more power attack!), though it may have had its own action use incompatible with SSN's ability. It specifies making a single unarmed attack and not working with flurry, but does not say it's the attack action, a standard, or anything. So....since SSN's ability is a single unarmed strike, it should combine, but you should ask your DM.


It's not hard to +1 a class when the class is Monk...

Yeah, I would hope they mean it's +1 from monk. It's probably -1 from Swordsage (if only because Swordsage is kinda low tier 3 to begin with, so it wouldn't take too much of a depower to drop them down).