Fine-tuning a Charge-barian

[Laserlight]

I created a charger for a single-session scenario, but the GM likes him and wants him in the regular campaign.


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Gok, level 6
Half-Orc, Barbarian
Build: Rageblood Barbarian
Feral Might Option: Rageblood Vigor
Camp Follower (Stealth class skill)
Theme: Iron Wolf Warrior

ABILITY SCORES (according to his house rules)
STR 22, CON 17, DEX 22, INT 7, WIS 14, CHA 14

AC: 25 Fort: 22 Ref: 21 Will: 16
HP: 62 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 15

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +13, Endurance +12, Perception +12, Stealth +13

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Arcana +1, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +5, Heal +5, History +1, Insight +5, Intimidate +7, Nature +7, Religion +1, Streetwise +5, Thievery +8

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Iron Wolf Warrior Attack: Iron Wolf Charge
Half-Orc Racial Power: Furious Assault
Barbarian Feature: Swift Charge
Barbarian Feature: Rage Strike
Barbarian Attack 1: Howling Strike
Barbarian Attack 1: Pressing Strike
Barbarian Attack 1: Escalating Violence
Barbarian Attack 1: Swift Panther Rage
Barbarian Utility 2: Feral Rejuvenation
Barbarian Attack 3: Brutal Slam
Barbarian Attack 5: Rage of the Crimson Hurricane
Barbarian Utility 6: Run Rampant

FEATS
Level 1: Battle Awareness
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Greatspear)
Level 4: Powerful Charge
Level 6: Two-Handed Weapon Expertise

ITEMS
Marauder's Hide Armor +2 x1
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x2
Vanguard Greatspear +1 x1
Badge of the Berserker +1 x1
Boots of Adept Charging x1
Adventurer's Kit
Throwing hammer
Handaxe
====== End ======

First: I picked the Battle Awareness Feat which gives an OA when an adjacent target does something. Given that I have a Reach weapon and Boots of Adept Charging (shift after charging), I shouldn't be adjacent very often--yeah, it'll happen sometimes, but not every combat and not something I want to happen. I could do Student of the Sword...but is there a better Feat for a charger-with-reach? Doesn't need to be fighter, as long as it's something appropriate for a not-very-bright Barbarian.

Second: any other fine tuning to suggest?

Rest of the party is: cavalier, swordmage, unoptimized ranger, warlock, shaman.

[GPuzzle]

Switch the Greatspear for a Gouge and Powerful Charge for Surprising Charge. Get a Horned Helm too.
As it would be, you'd have a 4d6 (brutal 1)+2d6+1d8+6+1+2 for an average of 16+7+9+4,5 or 36,5 on a charge instead of what you have, which is 1d10+1d6+1d8+6+1+2 or 5,5+3,5+4,5+9=22,5 damage. As for accuracy, it goes from 6+1+3+2+1 vs AC (average 20), which means 13 vs AC, for 6+1+3+3+1 or 14 vs AC. Crits go from 1d8+10+6+8+6+1+2 or 37,5 to 2d6 (brutal 1)+1d8+24+12+8+6+1+2, or 8+4,5+53=65,5.

DPR comparison: 0,65*36,5+0,05+65,5 vs 0,7*22,5+0,05*37,5 or 23,725+3,275 vs 15,75+1,875 or 27 vs 17,625.

Pretty good, uh?

Otherwise, I don't see any blatant problems with it.

[Epinephrine]

Switch the Greatspear for a Gouge and Powerful Charge for Surprising Charge. Get a Horned Helm too.
As it would be, you'd have a 4d6 (brutal 1)+2d6+1d8+6+1+2 for an average of 16+7+9+4,5 or 36,5 on a charge instead of what you have, which is 1d10+1d6+1d8+6+1+2 or 5,5+3,5+4,5+9=22,5 damage. As for accuracy, it goes from 6+1+3+2+1 vs AC (average 20), which means 13 vs AC, for 6+1+3+3+1 or 14 vs AC. Crits go from 1d8+10+6+8+6+1+2 or 37,5 to 2d6 (brutal 1)+1d8+24+12+8+6+1+2, or 8+4,5+53=65,5.

DPR comparison: 0,65*36,5+0,05+65,5 vs 0,7*22,5+0,05*37,5 or 23,725+3,275 vs 15,75+1,875 or 27 vs 17,625.

Pretty good, uh?

Otherwise, I don't see any blatant problems with it.

Switching to the gouge is certainly nice, but that's a conditional damage roll - you need combat advantage to get the extra dice. Tweaking to a horned helm and surprising charge while still using a greatspear isn't bad, either, as you get more accuracy, if he likes the reach a lot. Also, I don't know where the extra damage on your crit with the gouge comes from, it isn't a high crit weapon (yet). I see 57.5 on a crit with the gouge, not 65.5. a crit with a greatspear and surprising charge (if you have CA, which you are assuming) and a horned helm would be 4 less; your overall damage wouldn't be much lower (22.05+2.675=24.725 vs. 26.6, or nearly 2 points of DPR for reach, and more accurate attacks with other powers if you ever need an effect to land.)

.

[Laserlight]

I had the Horned Helm (and Vanguard 2 instead of 1) on my wishlist, but not in my budget.
I can probably get CA fairly often--enough to make Surprising Charge worthwhile.

Suggestion on the MC feat? Something better than Student of the Sword?

[GPuzzle]

Well, that changes my calculations a bit, but not too much. Battle Awareness is the best MC feat, with very few coming close, and one of them is Battle Cleric's Lore. Fighters have some very nifty weapon goodies, so you probably were going to MC anyway, and Battle Awareness grants you a free attack.

[Laserlight]

Well, that changes my calculations a bit, but not too much. Battle Awareness is the best MC feat, with very few coming close, and one of them is Battle Cleric's Lore. Fighters have some very nifty weapon goodies, so you probably were going to MC anyway, and Battle Awareness grants you a free attack.

I'm not seeing the Lore feat in the Compendium--is there a different name for it?

Surprising Charge is 1W dmg vs 2 dmg...but Surprising will never be worse by more than -2 (which is usually not going to make the difference in a kill) and will sometimes be better by +8...yeah, I'll do that.

Gouge vs Spear is "8 dmg" vs "5 dmg and Reach and +1 Attack". I don't know that the +3 damage is worth the +1 attack and the reach.

edit: for Surprising Charge, you want Combat Advantage. By RAW, you don't get CA from Flanking unless you're adjacent to the target or have the feat Polearm Flanker. Of course, you can still move adjacent while using a Reach weapon, so you can get Flanking--just without benefit of Reach. And you don't have to move adjacent if the target grants CA from being Dazed, Prone, etc.

[Inevitability]

I'm not seeing the Lore feat in the Compendium--is there a different name for it?

Divine healer, though it is not 100% sure if you can get BCL through it.

[Nightgaun7]

I'm not seeing the Lore feat in the Compendium--is there a different name for it?

Surprising Charge is 1W dmg vs 2 dmg...but Surprising will never be worse by more than -2 (which is usually not going to make the difference in a kill) and will sometimes be better by +8...yeah, I'll do that.

Gouge vs Spear is "8 dmg" vs "5 dmg and Reach and +1 Attack". I don't know that the +3 damage is worth the +1 attack and the reach.

Reach is not particularly important for a charger imo

[Dimers]

Reach is not particularly important for a charger imo

If I'm not misinformed -- and I might be :smallredface: -- having a reach weapon actually makes charging more difficult, because you have to stop farther away from the target. So you need three squares in between, rather than two.

[masteraleph]

If I'm not misinformed -- and I might be :smallredface: -- having a reach weapon actually makes charging more difficult, because you have to stop farther away from the target. So you need three squares in between, rather than two.


No- you don't have to stop as soon as you reach the range, you can keep going, as long as you're continuing to move closer. A Pixie with a whip (which would be a lousy weapon in general, but it's the only 1h Reach weapon I can find) could actually stop with one square between it and the target, adjacent to the target, or in the target's square, though the last would provoke an OA.

[Laserlight]

If I'm not misinformed -- and I might be :smallredface: -- having a reach weapon actually makes charging more difficult, because you have to stop farther away from the target. So you need three squares in between, rather than two.

You don't HAVE to stop farther away--you just lose the benefit of Reach if you stand adjacent.

Let's say I Charge to range 2 and stick my target, then use Boots of Adept Charging to step back to range 3. Target can't "shift 1, melee" to hit me.
Before my action, I somehow get knocked prone. I can use my Move to stand, then use my Standard to charge two spaces from range 3 to range 1 (adjacent). But now he can hit me..if he survived getting charged twice.

[Dimers]

Ah, right, it's in 3.X where you have to stop your charge movement as soon as you're close enough to attack. Not 4e.

[Laserlight]

Ah, right, it's in 3.X where you have to stop your charge movement as soon as you're close enough to attack. Not 4e.

And some other changes -- in 3.5, as I recall, you had to go in a straight line. In 4e, straight lines are only needed for puns.

[thatSeniorGuy]

I'm not seeing the Lore feat in the Compendium--is there a different name for it?

As I found out previously to my great annoyance, BCL is not actually in the Compendium, only in Dragon Magazine 400 (http://wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/dra/201106cleric).

[Laserlight]

As I found out previously to my great annoyance, BCL is not actually in the Compendium, only in Dragon Magazine 400 (http://wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/dra/201106cleric).

Ah. I was wondering...but scale armor? Healing surge? A barbarian needs not these things...

[Laserlight]

Barbarian Attack 1: Swift Panther Rage

That gives me extra move ("Until the rage ends, you gain a +2 bonus to speed and can shift 2 as a move action").

On the other hand Life-Ending Strike gives me 4W damage plus all the charge cheese. Potentially (assuming Surprising Charge applies and that I want to add Furious Assault and Iron Wolf Charge) 6d10+d8+d6+10--average 51, crit 84+d8.

[Inevitability]

Ah. I was wondering...but scale armor? Healing surge? A barbarian needs not these things...

Actually, you gain a +2 shield bonus to AC (pretty good, considering no barbarian will ever use a normal shield) and proficiency with scale armor (this means you can just focus on STR/CON or STR/CHA, instead of having to boost Dexterity). The healing surge benefit is wasted, I give you that, but reducing MAD, increasing your AC by 3 to 4 points, a free skill training and allowing access to cleric feats for a single feat is pretty good, isn't it?

[Laserlight]

Actually, you gain a +2 shield bonus to AC (pretty good, considering no barbarian will ever use a normal shield) and proficiency with scale armor (this means you can just focus on STR/CON or STR/CHA, instead of having to boost Dexterity). The healing surge benefit is wasted, I give you that, but reducing MAD, increasing your AC by 3 to 4 points, a free skill training and allowing access to cleric feats for a single feat is pretty good, isn't it?

Yep. Gok has better AC than anyone else in the party--25 base, 26 when charging, our defenders have 24--but that's a good feat. If I can find a way to get DDI to recognize it, I may add that to my warlord when he next levels.

[Nightgaun7]

Yep. Gok has better AC than anyone else in the party--25 base, 26 when charging, our defenders have 24--but that's a good feat. If I can find a way to get DDI to recognize it, I may add that to my warlord when he next levels.

It's not a feat itself, you take the cleric feat that gets you healers lore and then swap it for BCL. Assuming your GM lets you. IMO the MAD reduction is overstated but it's still decent. Biggest issue is It restricts your MC choice when you probably want to take fighter powers or something.

You're a barbarian, get better at murdering things before worrying more about boosting AC

[Laserlight]

You're a barbarian, get better at murdering things before worrying more about boosting AC

Yup. I would take it for my warlord, not my barbarian. Barbarian wants more "to hit" and maybe an AoE.

[Yomega]

A + for the gouge is its a spear so you can take spear experies insted of two-handed for the bonus to damage on a charge.

That said Im away from my builder so I dont actualy know what two-handed gives you beyond the +1/2/3 to hit also it just feels awsome when you re-roll those 1s and they come up 6s

Edit: I missed the other weapon is a greatspear so you can already take the spear goodies

[Laserlight]

A + for the gouge is its a spear so you can take spear expertise instead of two-handed for the bonus to damage on a charge.

That said Im away from my builder so I dont actualy know what two-handed gives you beyond the +1/2/3 to hit also it just feels awsome when you re-roll those 1s and they come up 6s

Our ranger has a brutal weapon; he rerolls 1s and invariably gets 2s. I think his dice are cursed.

[Nightgaun7]

Our ranger has a brutal weapon; he rerolls 1s and invariably gets 2s. I think his dice are cursed.

Conversely, I love Brutal. Ups damage on my charger by a fair bit (above the average of 4/die for sure)