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TheNervyOne
2014-04-04, 03:16 AM
Hello,

Well I had a question that is gonna sound kinda odd.

While looking through some of the older threads out there on the interwebs I have become curious of the Monk class. In PF they fixed some issues but not enough it would seem.

Now, people argue that the Monk is MAD as hell. Well this can easily be fixed with Weapon Finesse and Intuitive Attack in 3.5 and just WF in PF. But that is two feats to reduce STR off the MAD list. What about Con? Well this is harder without resorting to homebrew/house rules.

So where is the question I hear you typing.
Well here it is.

Are the ideas listed below a decent start to a fix.

1. In addition to Wis going to AC the Monk adds Wis or Con bonus whichever is highest to his Hit Die roll when he gains a level including at level one. So if the monk has a 14 Wis and a 10 Con the monk adds the +2 from Wis to his HP rather then +0... can you add +0?

2.Grant Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat in the flurry of blows ability. It is an ability based off rapidly hitting the foe multiple times. It would make better sense to use a feat that fits with it. As well as add a version of Intuitive Attack to Unarmed Strike ability allowing the Monk to add their Wis modifier in addition to their Str rather then in replacement of. Or they could choose at level 1 to add Wis to their Damage but not their attack.

3. Add a way out of Flurry. A Decisive Strike variant that instead increases its multiplier every time the monk would gain another iterative attack so a normal monk it would be at 8th and 15th levels. So double at level 1, triple at level 8 and quadruple at level 15. This is to represent those monks who favor the 1 inch punch of Bruce Lee not the high speed rapid assault of Jet Lee.

4. Add a Perfect Strike ability similar to the Magus' Kensai Archetype. Use Ki for something worthwhile. Spending 1 Ki point to maximize the damage from an unarmed strike or monk weapon damage. Or 2 points to increase the critical hit multiplier for that hit.

5. If you go the way of Decisive Strike the monk gains the ability to use Light Armor but Stunning Fist and its other abilities suffer from the ASF of the armor.

6. Give Abundent Step at 8th level the same level the Sorc gets it. Give it bonuses at 10th, 12, and 14th in the way of the Dimension feat tree Dimension Agility, Dimension Dervish, etc. Move Tongue of the Sun and Moon down to 6th level where it will see some use. Maybe move Diamond Body to lvl 10 so you are the Trap Finder guy the hard way if the rogue is out of action since no poison or diseases can now hurt you.

7. To help Slow Fall add the feats Spider Step at fourth level to the monk, and at 8th or 10th level add Cloud Step (Check the PF SRD) this will give it the bonuses needed to make it feel less pathetic but also allows it not to be just Featherfall as a spell like ability.

8. Add a weapon enhancement ability in line with the Magus and the upcoming Warpriest for Monk's chosen Monk special weapons and their unarmed attacks that grant them a +5 at 16th-20th level.

9. Grant the Monk Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge at the same levels you grant Evasion and Improved Evasion.

10. Wholeness of Body to be changed to healing a number of hit points equal to 1d6/2 ki points spent. At 12th level this becomes 1d8/2 ki points spent and at 17th level it becomes 2d6/2 ki points spent with the monk only able to spend as many ki points in healing equal to his Wis modifier or half his Monk level whichever is higher.

So what do you think of these? (Question two I guess)

John Longarrow
2014-04-04, 06:55 AM
TheNervyOne,
Sounds like you should be looking at the unarmed swordsage version in Tome of Battle. With Superior Unarmed Strike the class works very well as a "Fixed" monk, plus it adds a LOT of versatility.

TheNervyOne
2014-04-04, 07:05 AM
Please don't be THAT guy.

Xerlith
2014-04-04, 07:11 AM
Full BAB. Needs full BAB. Other thna that, it MAY be raising the monk a tier up and be a decent beginning, but... Only a beginning. Have you taken a look at one of the numerous homebrew fixes already done? I have saved time thanks to them myself. :smallbiggrin:

TheNervyOne
2014-04-04, 07:17 AM
I have looked at a few of them and yes Full BAB and a larger HD would be required as well.

After sleeping on it a little more I was looking at the Quinggong Monk Archetype and I was thinking adding this as a basic function would be a good idea. As a swift action the monk can spend a Ki point to trade out a class feature temporarily and replace it with one of the available options. With a few edits and additions to the list of feats and such available.

I really have yet to see a homebrew that allows two ways of playing the monk. The Bruce Lee style martial artist is the base but they miss that real world monks who did fight such as the shaolin monk ended fights quickly not always through a flurry of attacks but most often with the most precise and effective means possible in the quickest time. So allowing a Str focused monk to deal a psuedo-one inch punch of death rather then the rapid fire flurry of punches and kicks style seems like a good idea.

SpawnOfMorbo
2014-04-04, 07:37 AM
Please don't be THAT guy.

You don't like it when people show a fix for the monk that was made by WotC?

Weird...

You can either go through a crazy ton of homebrew and changing out class features and picking up a ton of feats and still suck for the most part.

Or take a base class that needs... 1 or 2 feats (maneuver refresh feat is optional even) and call it a day. And be tier 3 of all things.

Edit: Pretty rude of you to dismiss someone who was trying to help, and gave you a perfectly good option to go for since you didn't say no ToB.

Also shouldn't this thread be on homebrew? It seems you are less discussing the monk and more trying to make a fix for it.

John Longarrow
2014-04-04, 08:05 AM
Please don't be THAT guy.

As you are new around here, I'll forgive the way that post comes across.

The reason I suggest you check out how the unarmed SwordSage works is to give you a good idea of what kinds and types of abilities work well at each class level.

At 1st, SwordSage effectively gets weapon focus(unarmed strike) if they desire. They can also fight unarmed in light armor, the point in their career where this is most valuable.
At 2nd, Wisdom to AC.
At 4th, Wisdom to Damage.

Unarmed SwordSage generally relies on Dex, Con, and Wis since they get lots of skill points and can use feats to switch STR based combat options to Dex (weapon Finesse & Shadow Hand, but limits their stances a bit)

With maneuvers the SwordSage gets a lot more movement based benefits much earlier than Monks do. Most often, by the time a Monk can start doing all of their wonderful tricks based on their class, most other characters have been pulling them off with spells and items for several levels. Because of how easy it is for other's to do what a Monk does better and earlier in their careers your fix should move comparable abilites earlier in the classes progression. If you don't, players will be wondering why you are offering them a weaker alternative to what they can build themselves.

NOTE: Check out a couple of the other threads on unarmed combat to see how to build melee monsters that don't need weapons and pound Monks into the ground.

TheNervyOne
2014-04-04, 09:28 AM
I do apologize I had just gotten home from work and was very tired and annoyed by events at work and I didn't mean tto sound so curt and rude.

Though yes I know Swordsage has a lot of nice options including the OP spell casting variant though would be nice for a overarching big bad style character.

The reason I said it (In a very rude way I agree and again am sorry) is that in every thread about monk fixes people bring up the Swordsage.

This can be kind of tiring as if I wanted to do a Swordsage up I would make up a swordsage.

Also I like the monk there is a reason it is a base class even into PF its an iconic class. Simply going "Well a swordsage does it better" means nothing in technicality a Wizard can out perform a fighter if they build for it, does this mean we should do away with the fighter?

Red Fel
2014-04-04, 09:35 AM
Also I like the monk there is a reason it is a base class even into PF its an iconic class. Simply going "Well a swordsage does it better" means nothing in technicality a Wizard can out perform a fighter if they build for it, does this mean we should do away with the fighter?

That's a bit of an unfair comparison. An optimized Wizard can outperform a Fighter because the Wizard has the power and versatility to do anything; that's what makes the Wizard a Tier 1 class, and one of the most overpowered classes in the game. The point isn't just that "Swordsage is better," but that Swordsage is a better Monk. Specifically, the Unarmed Swordsage variant can do many of the things that a Monk can do, and then some, better than the Monk. It has better features and the flavor is more fitting.

There have been innumerable threads on the mechanical failings of the core Monk class, and various proposed fixes. But at the end of the day, there is little need to reinvent the wheel. Many people suggest the Unarmed Swordsage because it's already there, and it works really, really well - it gives the player anything you could want in an unarmed martial artist, with interest. That's why it's one of the first suggestions, if not the very first, when a Monk question comes up. A simplistic answer, but a fair one.

John Longarrow
2014-04-04, 09:58 AM
TheNervyOne,

No problem, been there done that too many times.

Reason I was referencing the SwordSage is that it is pretty balanced with other options as far as a versitile melee-centric character that does a bunch of other skill moneyish things.
You will want your rebuild Monk to at least be as capable otherwise folks will just grab the SwordSage.

For myself, the "Iconic" nature of the Monk seems more to be because it was in Advanced D&D more than it works well. I like the concept of the wandering Monk, the martial artists with strange powers. I've just seen much better ways to reflect it mechanically than how the Monk CLASS does. In game terms, Monk should be better than Bruce Lee/Jacky Chan, because its a fantasy game. Moving it to Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon levels makes it more survivable and comparable to normal D&D. The down side is that the mechanics for the Monk class don't synergise well and don't allow for most of the cool abilities people want at a point where they are still useful. Having seen them in game, level 20 Monks hang well with a 12-15th level party but don't add enough to work well with higher level parties. Even a 10th level Monk is better in a group of 6-8th level characters than in a 10th level group.

Rebuilding the Monk is an actual rebuild of the class, tossing in a variety of extra abilities that the class doesn't already have and reworking what it does to synergize.