giantbane, elusive target, skirmish

[darioun]

hi!

I'm playing a lvl11 scout8/fighter1/barb1/dervish1 called nilakina tantarella and I just stumbled upon the giantbane feat as a lvl12 feat. maybe you could help me with a couple of questions that came to my mind...

nila has the elusive target and giantbane feats. is it possible to use the elusive target's diverting defense maneuver as the trigger for the duck underneath maneuver?

say nila stands in front of a huge troll, with another troll behind him, flanking.
I assign the huge troll as the dodge target, and take the total defense option, receiving +4 (having elaborate parry makes this a +8). the huge troll strikes at the dervish on his turn and auto-misses due to the diverting defense, attacking the other troll... say the rest of the attacks hit.

does this qualify for the death from below maneuver? as the troll did not hit, I suppose it should, right?

could the dervish then use power attack to resolve this attack?

after that death from below maneuver, the dervish (auto-confirming the tumble check) is then at an opposite field of the huge troll and from there can still make a full round of actions, did I get that correctly?

does the duck underneath also qualify for a movement of 10ft to trigger the scout's skirmish ability? after all, nila had to move at least 15ft to get to the other side of the huge troll.
ok, maybe it shouldn't count for the death from below maneuver, but nila could still have the skirmish enabled from the movement to get to the troll in the round before, before taking the total defense action as a standard action. what do you think?

if all that's possible, it's actually a pretty cool combo, especially in later game, when the size of everything increases...

as for the climb aboard maneuver, does the -4 attack penalty also count for the optional grapple to get rid of the creature on board? what's the benefit for the creature being aboard apart from the -4 attack malus for the climbed creature? any attack bonus from being on higher ground? the two creatures are not in a grapple, I suppose, so getting off the troll would be what? a jump down during a move action?

thanks in advance,
darioun

[darioun]

nobody anything? :smallfrown:

[Trasilor]

Wording on Duck Underneath is somewhat vague and open to interpretation.

Giantbane states:

If that foe misses you, on your next turn, as a free action, you may make a DC 15 Tumble check.


One could argue, the first Troll did in fact hit you (its subsequent attacks) with an attack. Thus negating the ability. Consult your DM first.

The rest of my post assumes it works...

Regarding your subsequent actions:

Power Attack on Death from Below - Duck Underneath happens on your turn. Before taking any actions, designate your power attack bonus for the round - then do Duck Underneath/Death from Below.

Skirmish Damage to Death from Below - No. Duck Underneath happens on your turn. You have not moved enough to apply the skirmish bonus.

Full attack after Duck Underneath - Questionable. Wording is somewhat vague. As a DM, I would say yes (I would rule Duck Underneath uses your Swift action rather than move action).

Skirmish after Duck Underneath - Yes. Opposite side of a huge creature is at least a 20' move.

Also, how do you have Elaborate Parry? That is a level 7 Dervish ability.

Regarding Climbing Aboard:
The -4 penalty does not apply to the Grapple check. Contrary to popular belief, it is a check not an attack roll (to initiate a grapple you must make a Touch Attack that provokes an attack of opportunity). In this case, the text is clear - the giant makes a grapple check vs your climb check.

Why? Rule of cool :smallamused:

As for higher ground - that is a DM call. You do get cover if you are on one side of the giant and opponents are on the other. Jumping is a move action; however, falling is free action.

[darioun]

thanks for your lengthy answer!

full ACK on most.

as you said I'll have to talk to the DM about the elusive target trigger for duck underneath, only when this is allowed the feat would actually make sense for the dervish.
but I think it will be fine, as the wording in the elusive target is: "The first attack of the round from the designated attacker automatically misses you ..."
and the wording in the giantbane is: "If that foe misses you, ..."
so RAW he did indeed miss me. we play RAW, so that should be fine.


Also, how do you have Elaborate Parry? That is a level 7 Dervish ability.

ehm, yeah, I was ahead of my time there, of course this only comes at lvl17. the giantbane feat might also only come at lvl 15 or maybe 18, so it was more of a general "is giantbane a clever feat for my dervish or should I go direction improved trip or deft opportunist/karmic strike?" question.

another thing: what do you think of the close-quarters fighting? really worth a feat? I already have a massive dodge bonus from dodge, mobility (ok, only when I move), haste (from boots of speed), skirmish and combat expertise, so with touch attacks it will likely become really hard to actually grab me. any other ideas on that?


Jumping is a move action; however, falling is free action.

yeah and falling I end up prone, while I can combine jumping with tumble and just niftly tumble away... btw: I really like the jump bonus you get from the base speed, jumping 15ft from standing without having to roll is pretty sweet...

[Trasilor]

yeah and falling I end up prone, while I can combine jumping with tumble and just niftly tumble away... btw: I really like the jump bonus you get from the base speed, jumping 15ft from standing without having to roll is pretty sweet...


If you dip one level into Thief-acrobat (http://dndtools.eu/classes/thief-acrobat/) you get Kip Up (as well as some other level 1 benefits) that allow you to get up from prone as a free action :smallamused:

Also, if you can feat retrain - take martial Study to learn one Tiger Claw maneuver then take Martial Stance to get Leaping Dragon Stance then retrain The Martial Study to something you want. Leaping Dragon Stance add 10 feet to jump checks....of course you could combine with Sudden Leap maneuver to get a once per round Jump at a swift action with a plus 10 movement...pounce (of course you could also do that with the first level of Barbarian too :smallamused: ). By RAW you only need the prerequisites when selecting a Maneuver/Stance - once selected you can train away the prerequisites.

i do not think close-quarter-fighting is generally worth it. Creatures that are good at grappling are generally really good at grappling. The caveat is if you can get it at low levels and retrain it out. There are some really big, but low CR creatures with huge grapple checks. Keep in mind that it doesn't add to your number of Attacks of Opportunity - so if two people attempt to grapple you -the second can do so with impunity. So you also need Combat Reflexes.

Eventually you will want Freedom of Movement.

As it stands, this character seems rather feat intensive. I suggest looking for items that mimic feats to free up some slots.

Also, keep in mind, many of these feats that are geared toward really big creatures is rather situational. As a Medium character - fighting Huge opponents tends to be more rare then you realize. Unless the game is going revolve around you fighting Huge creatures (Dragons, Huge Giants (which are few), or other huge creatures) all these specific feats become wasted.

Unless you can find a way to play a small creature (large is very common) - you may find that many of your feats are worthless.

Just something to consider.

[darioun]

If you dip one level into Thief-acrobat (http://dndtools.eu/classes/thief-acrobat/) you get Kip Up (as well as some other level 1 benefits) that allow you to get up from prone as a free action :smallamused:

I never saw this class before. Wow, it would work PERFECTLY with what I have in mind. Unfortunately, we have a "one prestige class only" rule, but I will run that by the DM. Great tip! Thanks!


Also, if you can feat retrain - take martial Study to learn one Tiger Claw maneuver then take Martial Stance to get Leaping Dragon Stance then retrain The Martial Study to something you want. Leaping Dragon Stance add 10 feet to jump checks....of course you could combine with Sudden Leap maneuver to get a once per round Jump at a swift action with a plus 10 movement...pounce (of course you could also do that with the first level of Barbarian too :smallamused: ). By RAW you only need the prerequisites when selecting a Maneuver/Stance - once selected you can train away the prerequisites.

No retraining, we don't have the Players Handbook II, nor do we have the Complete Scoundrel (I'd have gone Swift Hunter ranger/scout otherwise).


i do not think close-quarter-fighting is generally worth it. Creatures that are good at grappling are generally really good at grappling. The caveat is if you can get it at low levels and retrain it out. There are some really big, but low CR creatures with huge grapple checks. Keep in mind that it doesn't add to your number of Attacks of Opportunity - so if two people attempt to grapple you -the second can do so with impunity. So you also need Combat Reflexes.

Eventually you will want Freedom of Movement.

Absolutely, I just don't have the money for the ring yet. Combat reflexes is already in the mix, with +3 DEX, so I'm ok there.
I thought of the Karmic strike, that would work pretty well with the build, especially on my round:
Provoke a lot of AoOs by moving around, when I get hit I strike back, when they miss I can try to trip them.
And with the full attack during my move from the dervish dance I can also attack during the move, so hasted up to 7 attacks on my round at lvl12. And with the high tumbling (and maybe even the Thief-Acrobat) I can avoid hits from enemies that I really don't want to get hit from.
Improved trip would work really well with this build as well... but so many feats!!!!! :smallwink:


As it stands, this character seems rather feat intensive. I suggest looking for items that mimic feats to free up some slots.

Well, unfortunately we have the houserule that we can't use feats granted from items for fullfilling prerequisites, so no mobility from the armor for example.


Unless you can find a way to play a small creature (large is very common) - you may find that many of your feats are worthless.

Just something to consider.

You are absolutely right. I just love the tactical feats, because when you really pull it off, it's an absolutely epic move.

[darioun]

at the moment I have the following progression:

1: scout1, skirmish +1w6, trapfinding, dodge, combat reflexes
2: fighter1, weapon focus falchion
3: scout2, battle fortitude, uncanny dodge, combat expertise
4: scout3, fast movement (10ft), skirmish +1w6 +1AC
5: barb1, fast movement (20ft), rage 1/day, (illiteracy)
6: scout4, bonus: mobility, power crit falchion
7: scout5, evasion, skirmish +2w6 +1AC
8: scout6, flawless stride
9: dervish1, dervish dance 1/day, movement mastery, slashing blades, elusive target
10: scout7, skirmish +2w6 +2AC
11: scout8, camouflage, bonus: x??
12: dervish2, fast movement (20ft), x??
13: dervish3, spring attack, dervish dance 2/day
14: dervish4, dance of death
15: dervish5, fast movement (20ft), dervish dance 3/day, x??
16: dervish6, improved reaction
17: dervish7, elaborate parry, dervish dance 4/day
18: dervish8, fast movement (25ft), x??
19: dervish9, tireless dance, dervish dance 5/day
20: dervish10, a thousand cuts

I could substitute scout8 with fighter2, so I can take power attack for the fighter bonus feat there. I'm not gonna go too stealthy anyway.
and then for lvl12 & 15 & 18 either close-quarters fighting, karmic strike, deft opportunist, improved trip or giantbane.

probably the best idea would be karmic strike on 12, deft opportunist on 15. I could imagine improved trip not to work as well on higher levels as it does on lower, so maybe then on 18th I could go giantbane and leave improved trip for our half orc trip master wielding the mighty spiked-chain :smallamused:

[Trasilor]

I wouldn't go higher than scout 6. 7 only gets you +1 AC during skirmish, 8 gets you even more meh. Realize, by character level 8 you should be able to fly with reasonable consistency - mages have been doing it for 3 levels. :smallamused:

I would take levels 1 and 2 of swordsage over 7/8 of scout. Lots of nice per encounter maneuvers and if you time it right (level 1 swordsage at character level 6) you could take adapative style for faster recovery and the ability to change maneuvers mid combat. Dipping in initiator classes can work at higher levels b/c maneuver selection is based on initiator level not class level. Assuming ToB is allowed.

See if your DM allows fraction BAB too. Given how mathematical BAB is - it makes sense.

Skill tricks (http://dndtools.eu/feats/categories/skill-trick/) - see if your DM will allow them. :smallamused:

[darioun]

yeah swordsage is nice, but unfortunately we don't have the tome of battle. and neither the complete scoundrel for skill tricks, else i'd have used the ranger/scout with swift hunter to go to the dervish in the first place... basically we only do SRD with a few complete sets (adventurer, warrior, divine) and a few forgotten realms and faerun books.
and no flying on our side so far, we play a low magic campaign.
i think i'm good with the current plan. maybe i substitute one lvl scout for fighter and one for dervish to get the thousand cuts one level early, other than that i think i'll stick to what I have. thanks a lot for all the input!