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Tough_Tonka
2007-02-04, 10:49 PM
A friend of mine is starting his first D&D campaign and I couldn't be happier (I'm finally going to a get a break from DMing for awhile:smallcool:), but he planning a campaign where the possible starting races are as followed:
Kobold
Goblin
Hobgoblin
Bugbear
Lizard Folk
Orc
Half-Orc

When he saw the racial traits for some of these races he soon agreed with me that these races need to be retooled, so here's the deal, what recomendations would you have for making goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, orcs and Half-Orcs balanced races?

He's made some ideas and I'll post them later. For Orcs I'd like to note he wants them to be more like tribal sages that evil bandits (like the orcs druids in Eberron) so the Wis Penalty needs to go. For hobgoblins I don't mind if you make them earn their LA of +1 or tone them down to an LA 0 creature.

Thanks in advance:smallsmile:

Rama_Lei
2007-02-04, 11:07 PM
Well, ditch the CHA penalty for goblins, or give them a WIS or INT increase. INT would make sense, as I always view goblins as very tricky. Toss in a few fluff bonuses (weapon familiarities, +1 against dwarves. etc), and you basically got an ugly halfling.

Rebonack
2007-02-04, 11:07 PM
I'm of the opinion that the Hobgoblin should be a plain old +0 LA. They're good for a +0. Like dwarf good. But they really aren't that amazing. Sure they don't get dinged on Cha like the dwarf fighter will, but does that -2 to Cha really matter? Not in the least.

As for Kobolds I would say they need more of a boost than any of the others with the goblins a trailing second. The poor Kobolds have a net -4 on their abilities and light sensitivity can be very annoying if the campaign takes place anywhere other than underground.

My favorite fix for them is to give them Slight Build. Sort of an inverted version of the Half-Giant's Powerful Build. They basically act as a Tiny creature when it benefits them and as a Small creature when being tiny would be detrimental. That puts them on par with the Hobgoblins and Dwarves.

Saithis Bladewing
2007-02-04, 11:08 PM
Kobold:

I houseruled that they drop the Con penalty and get Scent in response. I find that puts them fairly balanced, but I still think that humans and dwarves perform better than them...


Goblin:

Hm, I'm not 100% sure how to fix this little guy. Too many of the solutions just turn him into a subpar halfling clone.


Hobgoblin:

Ah, the race that doesn't deserve an LA...

A variant I've been considering drops the +2 Dex and the +4 to Move Silently but grants them a +1 bonus to hit. Fits their whole martial training concept and they're pretty tough, but they don't necessarily excel at anything that way. I personally feel that was enough for the loss of the LA (they didn't super need it to begin with) and it fits their martial style more accurately.


Bugbear:

No clue off the top of my head...


Lizardfolk:

Well, could start by dropping the extra hit dice, those are pretty daft...beyond that, reduction of natural armour, perhaps dropping the natural weapons (or weakening them) and probably losing one of the physical stats would do it.

Orc:

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure that orcs need to be balanced as much as some of these, but to make them more spiritual sage-like... Well, you can argue that giving them +4 to Str and -6 to mental stats is bad to begin with. Drop the wisdom penalty and you've got an even +4/-4. That's a start in the right direction.



Half-Orc:

Drop the Charisma or Int penalty (whichever you prefer) and throw on some kind of skill bonus and you're probably set.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-04, 11:10 PM
Hobgobs need some love, but it's kind of hard. Probably drop either the +Dex or +Con, and give them a -2 Cha. They'd still be weaker than Dwarves or Elves, and stronger than Half-Orcs, but meh, what LA0 race isn't?

OzymandiasVolt
2007-02-04, 11:47 PM
...why can't they be tribal savages with a WIS penalty?

JoeFredBob
2007-02-05, 12:36 AM
...why can't they be tribal savages with a WIS penalty?

Because you misspelled "sages".

OzymandiasVolt
2007-02-05, 06:41 PM
Oh snizzle. I was positive he said 'savages'. Oh well.

Alright, why can't they be tribal sages with a WIS penalty? Would a STR bonus cause them to be fighters? No? Then why would a WIS penalty PREVENT them from being sages? You know, since the Eberron orcs he referred to have said penalty and seem to be doing just fine.

JackMage666
2007-02-05, 07:51 PM
Kobold
I love kobolds. I love them alot. I would never play one, because they are treated so badly. I mean, on top of the stat decrease, they get the Light Sensitivity, and the skill bonuses, except Search, are practically useless.
My fix - Remove light senstivity, for starters. Then, increase Str and Con both by 2. So, you'll have Dex +2, Str -2. I mean, you'd think dragon decended creatures who are regualrly mining would have a hearty immune system and some muscle on them, wouldn't you?

Goblin
Tricky little guys, huh? They seem pretty much balanced, but I'd switch the +4 Ride to a +4 Hide, that way you're goblins don't require a mount, and it fits pretty well with the whole trickery things. Or, if you'd rather avoid making them more stealthy, change the Ride to Sense Motive or Use Rope. For the campaigns I've played in, ride is never prevelent, so I don't see it as a very helpful trait.

Hobgoblin
Hobgoblins, as they stand, do deserve a +1 LA, simply because they get a total of +4 to abilities, and that ain't bad. I'd give them a -2 Str, because it seems they favore ambush than brute strength anyway. Then, I'd be willing to consider it a +0 LA race.

Bugbear
If you're trying to make this a LA +0 race, that'll take some work. +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha and -2 Int, I'd say. They're strong bullies who basically dominate others. They seem more tribalistic than other goblinoids, and not as intelligent. However, their increased strength allows them to hold down the others easily. Drop Hit Dice. Eliminate the natural armor, or make it where their natural armor doesn't stack with manufactured armor. A free +3 AC boost isn't fair to other +0 LAs.

Lizard Folk
I don't think they're too problematic... The 2 HD need to go, and the +5 Natural Armor is really unfair to others who have to buy armor and face the check penalty as well. I'd vote - get rid of those, and you're set.
Or, go with Poison Dusk Lizardfolk (MM3), and just take away the +3 Natural Armor

Orc
For you're tribal shaman type people, I'd go with a +2 Str, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha. And, get rid of Light Sensitivity, unless you want all your adventures in the dark or at night. Throw in a +2 or +4 bonus to Intimidate checks, and I think you'd be set.

Half-Orc
Well, with what I presented in the Orc section, you can go with a couble variants here.. The Half-Orc could get the Str or Wis from it's Orc Parents, and one of the mental stats, leaving 4 possibilities.
+2 Str, -2 Int
+2 Str, -2 Cha
+2 Wis, -2 Int
+2 Wis, -2 Cha
The half-orc gets a +2 bonus to any 1 skill (+4 if they pick intimidate, as it fits both parents), that they recieve a small amount of natural skill from their human parents.
This will allow any character who plays a half-rc to feal more customized, making it the most human-like race.

Just my thoughts.

Neon Knight
2007-02-05, 08:02 PM
Hobgoblins with -2 STR? Hobgoblins are highly martial. They train for war. They are like 6'6" on average. That doesn't scream -2 STR.

Instead, try cutting the +4 racial to Move Silently down to +2, and maybe throw on a CHA or WIS penalty.

JackMage666
2007-02-05, 08:11 PM
Yeah, sorry about the Hobgoblin thing, it had been awhile since I read the passage. Either way, I think they're still a bit too strong for the +0 LA. The -2 Str would help balance, though it wouldn't match flavor. But a Cha or Wis penalty would really balance it much, since it seems obvious for any non-caster (or wizards, because that set up would make excellent wizards). I think hobgoblins are a bit too stong for the +0 LA, but too weak for LA +1. They're tricky.

daggaz
2007-02-05, 08:12 PM
maybe take away the first or 3rd level feat, then?

cupkeyk
2007-02-05, 09:31 PM
I like the Races of the Dragon WE variant Kobold. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)

Kobolds are casters. Losing the -2 to con would be perfect.

Goblin Rangers/ Wild Plains Outiders on Dire Weasels can give the smackdown.

Neon Knight
2007-02-05, 09:37 PM
Yeah, sorry about the Hobgoblin thing, it had been awhile since I read the passage. Either way, I think they're still a bit too strong for the +0 LA. The -2 Str would help balance, though it wouldn't match flavor. But a Cha or Wis penalty would really balance it much, since it seems obvious for any non-caster (or wizards, because that set up would make excellent wizards). I think hobgoblins are a bit too stong for the +0 LA, but too weak for LA +1. They're tricky.

Salright. I just love hobgoblins. Coolest evil race in my opinion. I like to see 'em done right. Hobgoblins are in some weird void between LAs. LA +0.5 maybe? Can you even do a LA + 0.5?

Ted_Stryker
2007-02-05, 10:08 PM
If you want to make Hobgoblins a +1 LA race, I say give them a +2 racial bonus to STR in addition to what they have already. That would make it worth the +1 LA, in my opinion.

For 0 LA, I'd say hit them with either a -2 or -4 racial penalty to CHA. In fact, +2 DEX, +2 CON, -4 CHA would basically be double the racial bonuses/penalties that Mongoose's The Slayer's Guide to Hobgoblins gives to 0 LA Hobbos.

JackMage666
2007-02-05, 10:11 PM
If they required 50% more XP between levels to level up, yhen you could, theoretically, do a +.5 LA... It's be weird, though...

L1 - 0
L2 - 1500
L3 - 4500
L4 - 9000
L5 - 16500

Yeah, sounds hard to add up repeatedly... And I don't want to recheck my math to even see if this is right.

StickMan
2007-02-05, 10:14 PM
This is what I do for my Half-Orc I find it works:
+2Str, -2Int, -2Cha.
Darkvision: 60feet.
4 extra Skill points at first lvl, 1 extra each additional lvl. (Keeps Half-Orcs out of Spell casting but no less skilled then any one else.)
+1 to Natural Armor. (Some people think this is to strong but put it next to abilitys of other races and its not that powerful. Ex. Halfling +1 to all saves.)
+2 Heal, +2 Survival. (Shows Half-Orc ability to survive on their own but in a game with magic Heals not all that useful and survival is abstract if you are not tracking.)

I also find the additons from this page to help round out the kobold.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a

Also I have played many many Goblins and find the race realy needs no changes to it. It is one of my favorit races and I have always found it balanced as long as you play to its strengths wich are stealth. I have played a goblin wizard that used his stealth to be a highly deadly spell caster.

Ted_Stryker
2007-02-05, 10:17 PM
If they required 50% more XP between levels to level up, yhen you could, theoretically, do a +.5 LA... It's be weird, though...

L1 - 0
L2 - 1500
L3 - 4500
L4 - 9000
L5 - 16500

Yeah, sounds hard to add up repeatedly... And I don't want to recheck my math to even see if this is right.
Oh, that's way more than a +0.5 LA, if you multiply the XP table by 150%. You would want it to work out such that when a character with 0 LA reaches level X, a character with a 0.5 LA is halfway between (level X - 1) and level X. That would be tricky, I admit.

Ted_Stryker
2007-02-05, 10:46 PM
OK, on further review, experience & levels for PC with a "+0.5 LA" template wouldn't be super-tricky, you would just have to average the target level XP total and the total XP needed for the next higher level to get the necessary XP total for a +0.5 LA.

One specific example:

5th level - needs 10,000 XP
6th level - needs 15,000 XP

Average them: 12,500 XP -- that's what you'd need to make 5th PC level with a "+0.5 LA" template. And so on for the other levels.

Draz74
2007-02-05, 11:14 PM
A couple things to keep in mind:

- Goblins already do get a +4 Hide bonus. In the form of a size bonus. They don't need an additional +4 racial bonus.

- I know Charisma penalties are cliche, but if Goblins have them, why shouldn't hobgoblins? I can't picture Hobgoblins being more charismatic than their less-martial, shrimpy brethren.

- Humanoid hit dice suck. Bugbears might be fine if you just drop the LA completely; they'd be getting good physical stats and Move Silently and Natural Armor as their class features for their first three levels. Sound fair? Same treatment might work fine for Lizardfolk.

- Wizards has already offered a number of ways to "save" kobolds. Check out this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), especially if you don't have Races of the Dragon to use.

Bosh
2007-02-05, 11:29 PM
I think goblins are fine like they are since being small but moving at 30' is a great combo. They make fine wizards (benefits of being small, high dex and being able to runa way decently fast) or rogues (+4 to hide to size from size +4 to move silently).

Draz74
2007-02-05, 11:44 PM
Oh yeah, one more note: In my homebrew setting, I buff up Kobolds by giving them the Humans' extra skill point per level.

Humans, in return for losing this, get Naturally Psionic.

Armads
2007-02-06, 03:28 AM
Kobolds become quite decent with Races of the Dragon.

MrNexx
2007-02-06, 10:41 AM
- I know Charisma penalties are cliche, but if Goblins have them, why shouldn't hobgoblins? I can't picture Hobgoblins being more charismatic than their less-martial, shrimpy brethren.

Because hobgoblins are highly organized, martial creatures. They produce LEADERS, be they Captains, Lieutenants, Sergeants, or Corporals.


- Humanoid hit dice suck. Bugbears might be fine if you just drop the LA completely; they'd be getting good physical stats and Move Silently and Natural Armor as their class features for their first three levels. Sound fair? Same treatment might work fine for Lizardfolk.

A little fix I use: I allow people to replace substandard racial hit dice with NPC class levels. Got some humanoid HD dragging you down? You can take levels as Warrior, Expert, Aristocrat, Adept, or Hedge Wizard, instead. It's essentially what's already done... humans have 1 humanoid HD (necessary for survival), but we replace it with our 1st class level, be it PC or NPC. I playtested it with a satyr bard, and it worked fairly well... his Expert levels weren't quite the same as his fey levels, but they didn't leave him as far behind as they might have.


- Wizards has already offered a number of ways to "save" kobolds. Check out this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), especially if you don't have Races of the Dragon to use.

Screw kobolds. When are they going to fix the Orc?

You know what? That's what I want to do. I want to write a book for Wizards. I want to write "Races of the Goblin" about the Goblinoids and the Orcs. I'm sick of them getting the short end of the stick. Who's the line editor?

Morty
2007-02-06, 11:26 AM
Screw kobolds. When are they going to fix the Orc?

You know what? That's what I want to do. I want to write a book for Wizards. I want to write "Races of the Goblin" about the Goblinoids and the Orcs. I'm sick of them getting the short end of the stick. Who's the line editor?
Agreed. They're messing up with kobolds, but Orcs and Goblins are still cannon fodder and are weak as races.

Matthew
2007-02-06, 01:59 PM
Yep. I find the 3.x versions of these races not too good. Orcs especially seem to have gotten the short end. Saying that, standard Dwarves and Elves aren't that great either...

JaronK
2007-02-06, 02:02 PM
Look at Races of the Dragon for Kobold fixes. They're now quite strong, especially as sorcerers.

JaronK

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-06, 02:13 PM
Um, dwarves are about as good as LA +0 races *get*, barring the Whisper Gnome. Elves are great, too. What more should they possibly have?!

Matthew
2007-02-06, 02:16 PM
I don't mean 'great' in the sense of they are not good LA +0 Races. Rather, I mean that they aren't that well thought out relative to other LA +0 Races (or to put it another way, I just plain don't like them).

Tough_Tonka
2007-02-06, 07:53 PM
Pretty Cool Stuff

The DM and I have no interest in making lizardfolk and bugbears LA +0 races, the campaign is starting at 3rd level so its not a big problem.

What Really wonder is whethe these races should have an ECL of 3 or 2, I mean the racial features they have are pretty good but does that make a bugbear as good as a third level character?

Tough_Tonka
2007-02-06, 08:00 PM
I'm a little confused about the racial qualities for kobolds in the article from Races of Dragons.

Do you add these features to the kobold?
or
Are these the only qualities to the kobold race?

If these qualities are just added to the Kobold what penalties are taken away?

Ted_Stryker
2007-02-07, 03:08 AM
The DM and I have no interest in making lizardfolk and bugbears LA +0 races, the campaign is starting at 3rd level so its not a big problem.

What Really wonder is whethe these races should have an ECL of 3 or 2, I mean the racial features they have are pretty good but does that make a bugbear as good as a third level character?
If the campaign starts at ECL 3, I would definitely make Hobgoblins a +1 LA race, and give them that extra +2 racial bonus to STR or some equivalent ability to bring them up to a "real" +1 LA template. The remaining 0 LA races are more or less balanced with respect to each other.

Bugbears are ECL 4, since they have 3 racial HD and a +1 LA. They are definitely not an ECL 2 race -- a Bugbear with full racial hit dice and the goodies from its template and one PC class level is much better than a 0 LA character with 3 class levels, especially if the starting 0 LA race choices are Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs, and Half-Orcs.

If a Bugbear character started out at 3rd level, I'd give it its 3 racial hit dice, but only a +2 STR with a -2 CHA for stat mods, and say only 2 out of its 3 natural armor bonus. Then when the character hits 4th level, it wouldn't get a PC class level but it would pick up the remaining +2 boost to all physical stats that it would get from its racial template and its final point of natural armor from the template.

By similar reasoning, I'd say a Lizardfolk PC is more or less going to be straight out of the Monster Manual at 3rd level. It has some nice features for its template, and the usual +1 LA suckiness that it might suffer is mitigated because the 0 LA races in this campaign are somewhat weaker than the default 0 LA races.