Goblin Economics

[Keltest]

While thinking about Gobbotopia, it occurred to me that they had entered into trade arrangements with other nation-states such as cliffport. However, in order for it to be trade, they need to be exporting something. My question is: what are they able to generate in the short term to be able to trade? 90 some % of their population was, at last viewing, hobgoblin military, which had just driven out almost all the craftsmen, fishermen, traders, and farmers from the immediate area. Even if they are equipped to produce something (like if they didn't burn the farms they passed) they don't have the skills needed to make use of it, since theyre almost all hobgoblin soldiers or priests. They cant fish since they have no boats or convenient way of producing them, and if they have ore mines or anything there was no indication of their presence. We saw slaves hauling food, but we also have no idea where that food came from.

[Smolder]

Worst case scenario, they sell the stuff they looted from the homes of the people who fled and use the money to buy boats with which to fish.

[Cuthalion]

Hydra burgers. :smalltongue:

[kgato503]

I think that they at least produce enough food for themselves, as the hobgoblin population was already thriving before Red Cloak came along. They also had to have enough supplies to wage war with Azure City in the first place, which not only includes food, but also weapons. Since no one would trade with them before, it stands to reason that they produced their own food and weapons. Also, since we did see them putting a lot of food into storage, it stands to reason that they are not only producing the minimum amount of food to survive, but an excess, which can then be traded. We have also seen craftsmen before, in particular the old hobgoblin who created the fake phylactery. All in all, they probably produce enough to at least be self sufficient, but there are probably items that are cheaper for them to trade for, or that they would like but do not need and cannot produce on their own. Also, just because a large portion of their population seems to be in the military (which we don't actually know, remember that all the women were not involved in the Azure City battle, nor were the elderly or young) it does not mean that those individuals have no other skills, or occupation plans for after military life. Sure, some are probably making a career out of the military, but some are probably going to go on to other paths later in life. Besides, in a people that is contently under attack, it makes sense for most, if not all, individuals to be trained for battle, and may even have mandatory service time.

Also, the bigger deal for them maybe getting the other cities to trade with them at all, since they are not only comprised of a species that is known for being evil, but they also took Azure City by force and use slavery. They probably have pretty free trading with their other towns and villages, like the one in the valley (which itself could be a major source of items for trade to the other cities), but would probably have difficulty trading with any non-goblin species.

The reason most of this is not shown? Probably because it would be really boring (who wants to watch a cobbler make a bunch of shoes or watch a farmer weed their crops). Its not like we have seen that many human or dwarven craftsmen, but it is probably safe to say that they exist.

[Draconi Redfir]

Plus just because the hobgoblins we see are soldiers doesn't mean they aren't also farmers, weavers, tailors, and blacksmiths. you can be both. Heck there was an entire army in 300 that was lead by a potter.

[Cicciograna]

Well, they probabily export slaves, since they just conquered a lot of them: we also know that Cliffport is not so alien when it comes to such a trade (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Just because the hobgoblins are all soldiers doesn't mean they don't have other skills, such as farming or crafting. This also works in reverse; some hobgoblin workers could have been conscripted into the army. We know something like this must have already been happening, since the hobgoblins were clearly self-sufficient without trade. They can also trade the things that they would have taken from Azure City (valuables, slaves, material goods).

[Pokonic]

Additionally, Azure City probably had a large fishing industry, and with the slave trade coming in boats and the supplies to build them are probably a priority for the new nation. As a whole, hydra meat is probably the staple for the goblins, but the ocean is a important resource, especially one that hasn't had any humans fishing around in it for a year. Even if the goblins don't eat what they catch, it's still a source of wealth for the city.

[Shield Master]

Economics grad student chipping in. They don't even necessarily have to have exports to be able to trade. There are many nations that import way more than they export and in this kind of time period, you can compare the goblins to Rome. In that case, they just kept conquering to finance their foreign luxuries.

[Anarion]

Economics grad student chipping in. They don't even necessarily have to have exports to be able to trade. There are many nations that import way more than they export and in this kind of time period, you can compare the goblins to Rome. In that case, they just kept conquering to finance their foreign luxuries.

This is short term, but pretty likely. They sacked the entirety of Azure City, a wealthy and powerful nation. And they live in a setting where a treasury is probably a real, physical place that's probably filled with gold and silver. They've also got several powerful clerics (even with Redcloak gone), so I'd think between use of magic, some foodstuffs, weaponry, military equipment, and precious metals, they'd have no trouble making trade arrangements.

[CaDzilla]

Aquatic goblins fufill all their marine needs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0823.html). They may also be using undead as slave labor.

[Keltest]

Aquatic goblins fufill all their marine needs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0823.html). They may also be using undead as slave labor.

I am baffled as to how that has not come up more often.

[hagnat]

there is at least one good example of a goblin warrior with skills in carpentry

[King of Nowhere]

Plus, in start of darkness it was mentioned that npc races got crappy land. if the hobbos were capable of surviving in crappy land, it stand to reason that they would produce more food than they need in the fertile azurite land.

[CaDzilla]

I am baffled as to how that has not come up more often.

They zombify their dead. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0433.html) Even though Redcloak has stopped making goblinoid undead, he could always just have clerics make the slaves that die of starvation/exhaustion/mouthing off into skeletons and/or zombies, who have none of those problems.

[Keltest]

They zombify their dead. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0433.html) Even though Redcloak has stopped making goblinoid undead, he could always just have clerics make the slaves that die of starvation/exhaustion/mouthing off into skeletons and/or zombies, who have none of those problems.

well, I was talking about aquagoblins and undead workers...

[The MADknight]

They have a large amount of human jerky to trade with.

[skim172]

I think we're to assume that there is a larger population of goblins and hobgoblins than just the military folk we've seen. Otherwise, even before you got into the question of how they'd support an independent city-state, you'd have to ask how they managed to produce, supply, and feed a massive, highly-structured, highly-trained, well-equipped army. Somewhere off the battlefield, there have to be farms, granaries, wagon trains, and lots of hob and gob civilians doing other things besides stabbing flesh-bodies with sharp things.

And yeah, pillaging and looting probably turns a profit in the short term.

And of course, there's the distasteful probability that the goblins have a massive human slave population - likely forming a major part of the Gobbotopian economy, both as a workforce and as a commodity.

If we were strictly going by what we saw on-panel ... well, then Gobbotopia has an astonishing male-to-female ratio which does not bode well for future population sustainability. :smallsmile:

[Rusty]

If all the goblins were clerics, maybe...:smalltongue:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I find it interesting how we've had two threads now talking about how Goblin society and trade works. Shows how lots of us like to look at the background of these things.

[Lexible]

Well, they probabily export slaves, since they just conquered a lot of them: we also know that Cliffport is not so alien when it comes to such a trade (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html).

You know, it's interesting, I just noticed about that comic you linked to: in his speech, Red Cloak says "In twenty years you will tell your great-grandchildren…" This rather firms up the uncertainty about Goblin lifespans (well, it does indirectly: a much higher rate of breeding without a much higher rate of turnover would mean that the world would be positively swimming in Goblins… since Goblins aren't out-breeding the rest of the world, we can assume that they are dying much younger than, say, humans).

[Keltest]

I think we're to assume that there is a larger population of goblins and hobgoblins than just the military folk we've seen. Otherwise, even before you got into the question of how they'd support an independent city-state, you'd have to ask how they managed to produce, supply, and feed a massive, highly-structured, highly-trained, well-equipped army. Somewhere off the battlefield, there have to be farms, granaries, wagon trains, and lots of hob and gob civilians doing other things besides stabbing flesh-bodies with sharp things.

And yeah, pillaging and looting probably turns a profit in the short term.

And of course, there's the distasteful probability that the goblins have a massive human slave population - likely forming a major part of the Gobbotopian economy, both as a workforce and as a commodity.

If we were strictly going by what we saw on-panel ... well, then Gobbotopia has an astonishing male-to-female ratio which does not bode well for future population sustainability. :smallsmile:

we actually do know that there is a larger population of non-military goblins that... aren't in gobbotopia. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html)Redcloak (I think) makes reference to the families the soldiers left behind in the northern lands at the outset of the conflict in one of his speeches.

[Cizak]

You know, it's interesting, I just noticed about that comic you linked to: in his speech, Red Cloak says "In twenty years you will tell your great-grandchildren…" This rather firms up the uncertainty about Goblin lifespans (well, it does indirectly: a much higher rate of breeding without a much higher rate of turnover would mean that the world would be positively swimming in Goblins… since Goblins aren't out-breeding the rest of the world, we can assume that they are dying much younger than, say, humans).

SoD tells us that "growing old" for a goblin means reaching 50. Redcloak is frozen at the age of an older teenager due to the Crimson Mantle.

[MReav]

This is short term, but pretty likely. They sacked the entirety of Azure City, a wealthy and powerful nation. And they live in a setting where a treasury is probably a real, physical place that's probably filled with gold and silver.

I'm pretty sure the Azure City treasury was destroyed when the castle blew up.

[ReaderAt2046]

Also, the Goblins can export trained mercenaries, which would be especially valuable on the Western Continent. Plus, we know Azure City has access to spice and silk, both of which are big moneymakers.

[snowblizz]

we actually do know that there is a larger population of non-military goblins that... aren't in gobbotopia. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html)Redcloak (I think) makes reference to the families the soldiers left behind in the northern lands at the outset of the conflict in one of his speeches.
Having finally figured out why I couldn't find the comic, it was nr 320a ie bonus material Redcloak notes that previous Supreme Leaders had not thought to mobilize 90% of the population.
In other words, there are large numbers of former civilians in the Gobbotopia army. It would also suggest the forces at Azure city represents a large part of the available goblinoids. In this area at any rate.

[Edric O]

I always assumed that warfare in the Stickverse worked more or less the same way it did in medieval times IRL, which means no standing armies and no professional soldiers. The commanders have an actual permanent job in the military, but the bulk of the army - the rank-and-file soldiers - are just civilians who join up (or are forcibly drafted) for the duration of the war, after which they return to what they were doing before.

[Mike Havran]

If the hobgoblins managed to thrive in the harsh mountains, they will be able to do with the extra amount of fertile land, access to the ocean and leftover riches just fine.

[Zmflavius]

I'd say the same way conquering nomadic armies survived after conquest historically; distribution of plunder, sometimes animals, sometimes land, often some combination of both, to soldiers. Alternatively, since the hobgoblin population still appears to be heavily militarized, mass-enslavement of the Azure City people is being used to provide the labor necessary to produce goods and support the standing Gobbotopian military.

Plus, I imagine Redcloak's policies are attracting no small number of settlers from NPC races, which probably helps as well.