Reducing NPC size in 3.5

[hymer]

I need a giant NPC to live among humans and be inconspicuous. So I need her to be able to be size medium indefinitely, and preferably with a low resource cost. Daily spellcasting is definitely out. My first idea for a solution is to have her suffering from a special Curse, but ideally she should be able to go back and forth between sizes.
Her original size could be large or huge, I'll settle on one when I know how it affects things like this.

Suggestions much appreciated! :smallsmile:

Edit: Ring of Reduction would do the trick, btw, but is rather expensive.

[eastmabl]

What about a special curse of humanthropy - like lycanthropy, but it turns the subject human?

You can then use Control Shape to change back and forth.

[JeminiZero]

Must it be a Giant (the type)? There are various other large or bigger creatures that can Change Shape/Alternate Form to medium humanoid shape such as Dragons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm) and Angels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm).

Are you willing to apply templates and take class levels?

Edit: Also, what sort of budget is available?

[The Insanity]

Dungeonbred template from Dungeonscape book. It'll make your monster one size category smaller for +0 CR increase. But you'll have to ignore one of the template's requirements (it can't be applied to giants, IIRC). It's a cool template.

[Telonius]

A one-time casting of Polymorph Any Object would get her down to medium size. The duration would be permanent, which means it's still subject to things like Dispel Magic. If you wanted to get back to your original size, you could activate an item of Antimagic Field, so the effect would be suppressed (but not dispelled) for as long as necessary.

[hymer]

@ eastmabl: Interesting idea, if perhaps a lot to introduce to get one quirk on a particular NPC.

@ JeminiZero: I’d be willing to consider most things, though giants are already at tad powerful for the scenario. Adding more would make that worse. Dragons and angels are not what I’m looking for, though; I do need a Giant.

@ The Insanity: Thanks, I’ll look into it. The permanent state of the size isn’t good, though (and I think you’re right about the requirements, it’s for magical beasts and aberrations, I think).

@ Telonius: PAO and AF a both a tad high for the scenario, though PAO could be explained away. Thanks!

[dextercorvia]

The spell Return to Nature (ECS) will instantaneously reduce your giant's size by one category. It is a 7th level druid spell. I believe you can stack that to medium, since it is an instantaneous effect, although reversing it would prove difficult.

[hymer]

A full level below PAO, so that's something. Thanks! Reversing it should be as simple as Break Enchantment two levels lower. The re-applying is harder.

[John Longarrow]

A very fun way would be to give the giant an Alternate Form(Human). I'd be fun about it though and require her to meet some special criteria to change to/from the smaller size. Make it a lower order from a Planar Touchstone, that way she's got it for a looooong time.

[dextercorvia]

A full level below PAO, so that's something. Thanks! Reversing it should be as simple as Break Enchantment two levels lower. The re-applying is harder.

Unfortunately, since it can't be dispelled, and is 7th level, Break Enchantment won't do it.

[hymer]

@ John Longarrow: Alternate Form would do it, of course. If I can fiat bonus feats to PCs, I can fiat AF to an NPC, of course, if nothing else will serve.

@ dextercorvia: Oh, right.

[CrazyYanmega]

Titans (Monster Manual pg. 242) have the Change Shape Supernatural Ability that lets them transform into any Small or Medium Humanoid. They ARE Outsiders, and are almost always Chaotic, but can be anything on the good/evil spectrum. At CR 21 they are pretty powerful, though, strong enough to give the Tarrasque a run for his money. In addition to strong melee attacks, a good weapon, and reach, they have quite a few potent At-Will SLAs. Don't use this if you intend for the party to fight her.

Their size is Huge normally, and the sample art for them is pretty human looking, barring their size.

Keep in mind the Curse thing won't work on a good-aligned titan since they get Remove Curse as a spell-like ability.

EDIT: If you don't want her fighting, stack a Vow of Peace on her. That way she exists, and is a powerful entity, but cannot be actively used in combat.

[Shinken]

I'm thinking about doing something similar (well, kind of). I want a phoenix for one of the arcs in my campaign, but I don't like monsters bigger than Huge (they take way too much space in the map), so I want to downsize it to Huge. I think using the normal de-sizing rules would make it a lot less powerful, though - I'm considering just changing the size modifiers and rolling with it.

[Urpriest]

What class levels does this character have? If they're geared towards infiltration, there may be class features that can help. For one, there's a Dragonfire Adept invocation called Humanoid Shape that should work.

[hymer]

@ CrazyYanmega: Thanks for the suggestion, but a titan is way out of proportion to the area. The balance of power would go straight out of wack – I’m currently thinking that I’d be better of with a Hill Giant, except they have hideous charisma, which fits horrible into the concept.
I doubt the players will try to fight her (she is a political figure, and could be an ally if they try to befriend her – or a rival if they seem to cross her plans), but you never know.

@ Urpriest: She hasn’t been given any, but ideally she should have none or very, very few. Six levels is beyond the pale, though Humanoid Shape would fit the ticket exactly.

[Daer]

curse idea sounds good.. perhaps it has something like x thing makes him human size and y makes him giant size..
like lending from ranma½ cold water changes him small, hot water returns him to his normal (or contrary for more challenge. might help players to notice there is something fishy on him if he avoids rain and so on. )

[Urpriest]

@ Urpriest: She hasn’t been given any, but ideally she should have none or very, very few. Six levels is beyond the pale, though Humanoid Shape would fit the ticket exactly.

Well, do keep in mind that six levels of Dragonfire Adept would only add 3 to the CR on most giants, due to them being nonassociated. Fangshields Druid 7 would be a similar commitment.

Since you don't know the starting size, you don't seem to have a particular giant race in mind. Is there a category you're looking for? Is this character a spy for some giant nation that exists as a collaboration between certain specific races, or the like?

I don't know if you've considered this, but an Ogre Mage is designed for this sort of thing, and has built-in Change Shape. They're CR 8, so only one higher than the Hill Giant you were considering.

[John Longarrow]

Hymer,
As it may be very relevant to our suggestions, what role will she take in the campaign? This may also help us with giving options that could work.

NOTE: Does she need to be a Giant that is small rather than a medium creature that can become BIG?

[hymer]

@ Daer: That sort of thing would certainly make it more interesting. Thanks for the suggestion!

@ Urpriest: Ogre mage is actually a really good mechanical suggestion, though their fluff rather messes with it. Still, I have not yet introduced OMs in this campaign, so nothing is final. It’s something to think about.

@ Urpriest and John Longarrow: Here’s hoping my players aren’t reading in by mistake.
The giantess’ exact nature is still under construction, but her meta role is primarily to give access to a look into what is going on in giant land when/if the players want it. The campaign area is seeing increased press of beings coming from outside. Some are peaceful, many are warlike. The giants will eventually follow. I’m introducing her early (PCs are about ECL 2-4) as a matter of principle. She’s not supposed to be a spy (I don’t think giants really care about the area right now), but she is working with a human ruler (about CR 7, which is the highest level NPC I know of in the campaign so far - but he's getting old and he's not a spellcaster) as his counselor and backup bodyguard (though medium-sized she still packs quite a wallop - well, we'll see, but I expect her to do so compared to humans). She is bound to him mostly by gratitude for an initial helping hand. I thought perhaps he saved her from a magical prison and gave her a place to stay when she could not get back to normal size, but that goes with the Curse reason for the size. But now she sees her friend growing old (giants age much slower, the size hasn’t changed that), and she has secretly decided to stay around and do her best to see his life’s work endure, because there’s a considerable succession crisis brewing a few years down the road (or whenever he needs replacing).
So she should originally be a natural part of giant society, then removed from them for some reason, and now having decided to stay with the humans at least for the foreseeable future.

[ericgrau]

There might be a monster or class somewhere out there... but then I say wait a second, you're the DM. Why spend hours hunting? Create one and slap on a CR. Make the cha and other ability scores what you want too. To be fair to the players I'd make it an entire race of giants, one they might know about from a knowledge check after they witness it change shape into a giant. If you don't want an entire race then I'd make it a custom magic item of continuous alter self. 3*2*2000*1.5=18,000 gp. Drop it to 10,000 gp or less for the limitation of small or medium humanoids.

Or I don't see why a particular ogre mage couldn't become politically active. They don't all have to fit the stereotype. Plus trickery is what they excel most at. Random open fights not so much. The monster is practically begging to be played smart.

[John Longarrow]

Hymer,
I've got something from my game that may work perfectly. If she is a Vale Giant (HD, Str/Dex/Con/NA average between Hill Giant and Ogre, mental's are all 10 - CR 5ish) she'd average between 7 &1/2 to 8 & 1/2 feet in natural form. If you are going with a more fun curse than the one in the PHB, it could be a divine curse (CL 20, effectively 9th level) for forsaking her family and making her Medium. I'd treat it as an instantanous duration "Reduce Person" that just leaves them there until they do XYZ (to return to their giant nature). She did piss off her Giant God and got smote for it, but has decided to hang with the humans now that she's about 4'8". As DM, you can break a curse that is diety level if you think the PC/NPC has warranted the attention. In her case it could be something along the lines of "Revealing sacred Giant religious knowledge to the unworthy" and she be a Cleric 3. Her new diety would be one of the human ones and her conversion is what triggered the curse. Think of it as "You wanna be like them, BE LIKE THEM!" from a petty and jealous divinity.

Fun part would be trying to figure out how to let the PCs learn this in game. Course having the petite little cleric PICK UP A HORSE in front of them could be a way...

[Urpriest]

@ Daer: That sort of thing would certainly make it more interesting. Thanks for the suggestion!

@ Urpriest: Ogre mage is actually a really good mechanical suggestion, though their fluff rather messes with it. Still, I have not yet introduced OMs in this campaign, so nothing is final. It’s something to think about.

@ Urpriest and John Longarrow: Here’s hoping my players aren’t reading in by mistake.
The giantess’ exact nature is still under construction, but her meta role is primarily to give access to a look into what is going on in giant land when/if the players want it. The campaign area is seeing increased press of beings coming from outside. Some are peaceful, many are warlike. The giants will eventually follow. I’m introducing her early (PCs are about ECL 2-4) as a matter of principle. She’s not supposed to be a spy (I don’t think giants really care about the area right now), but she is working with a human ruler (about CR 7, which is the highest level NPC I know of in the campaign so far - but he's getting old and he's not a spellcaster) as his counselor and backup bodyguard (though medium-sized she still packs quite a wallop - well, we'll see, but I expect her to do so compared to humans). She is bound to him mostly by gratitude for an initial helping hand. I thought perhaps he saved her from a magical prison and gave her a place to stay when she could not get back to normal size, but that goes with the Curse reason for the size. But now she sees her friend growing old (giants age much slower, the size hasn’t changed that), and she has secretly decided to stay around and do her best to see his life’s work endure, because there’s a considerable succession crisis brewing a few years down the road (or whenever he needs replacing).
So she should originally be a natural part of giant society, then removed from them for some reason, and now having decided to stay with the humans at least for the foreseeable future.

The bolded part means you should probably use a shapechanging ability that resembles Alter Self rather than Polymorph, or a size-reducing ability that doesn't reduce Str. Luckily, the Ogre Mage's Change Shape does that.

In terms of fluff, Ogre Mages are supposed to fill the role of both the Eastern Oni and the western shapeshifting, magical ogre. As long as you weight your description more to the latter side (i.e., less blue) then it should fit in reasonably well.

[hymer]

@ ericgrau: You're right, of course. Though the thread turned out to have plenty of interesting ideas. Thanks!

@ John Longarrow: More fun ideas, thanks!

@ Urpriest: Good point on the effect for size change. As for ogres, I don't usually group ogres (and by extension ogre mages) into the social and linguistic giant camp in my campaigns. They are instead the biggest goblinoids (though mechanically still giant type). So it's my own standard fluff I'm having problems with.

[Urpriest]

@ Urpriest: Good point on the effect for size change. As for ogres, I don't usually group ogres (and by extension ogre mages) into the social and linguistic giant camp in my campaigns. They are instead the biggest goblinoids (though mechanically still giant type). So it's my own standard fluff I'm having problems with.

Ah I see. That's fair, Ogres live in sort of a weird middle ground. If you haven't introduced Ogre Mages, though, you could have them be a sort of missing link between the two communities or the like.

[ericgrau]

Or change the name to "mage giants", keeping all or most of the mechanics.

[hamishspence]

Verbeegs are Medium-sized giants with similar stats to half-ogres (slightly different ability modifiers)- they're in Expedition to The Ruins of Greyhawk - and were in some old D&D novels as well, like The Crystal Shard.

[hymer]

@ ericgrau: Or 'tiny titans'? :smallwink: Thanks for the suggestion!

@ hamishspence: Interesting tidbit. I never knew verbeegs made it past 2nd edition. Thanks!