Summon monster versus Summon undead

[evangaline]

Greetings,

I have been comparing the summon monster line with the summon undead from libris mortis. I had heard about the community's love for the conjuration school, wich i understood when I started to build my conjurer because of these grand amounts of utility.

Now, the summon monster line of summoned beings have a lot of special abilities. The problem i have with the summon monster tree is that they make dreadful meatshields that hardly do damage. All of these monsters at SM (summon monster) levels 1 and 2 are size small wich means: -4 to grapple and trip.
Wich makes me doubt their effectiveness.
( http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Summon_Monster_I )

If we look at the summon undead summons you can summon hard(er) hitting meatshields that have no special abilities. They are basically 0,5-0,75 additional party member worth of hp and dmng
( http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/summon-undead-i--3780/ )

I have added the lists of summoned monsters/undead in this post.
My question too you is, why would you pick the summon monster over summon undead?
Or, do you feel like the crowd control of summoned monster up to summon monster V is worth it?

[Inevitability]

At low levels, I don't consider summons worth it. 1 round/level means that for every situation where they'd be useful, something better can be done with your action.

At high levels, you gain a bunch of alternate summons, and most of them have nice special abilities.

Really, once you're strong enough to rip the cosmos apart in less than a free action, you aren't summoning things for the damage they deal.

[NoACWarrior]

Spell descriptor Evil says alot about who can cast it and how people will perceive you.

Theres also the fact that things turned undead lose a few abilities they once had, making them less useful.
Unless you simply want summons to hit things good for good damage, undead summoning is not as useful as normal monster summoning.

[Urpriest]

Yeah, you only use Summon Monster for meatshielding/grappling/damage on the higher levels, and even then spell access and action economy are bigger draws. If you want meat shields you use a Summon Nature's Ally-based caster.

[Diachronos]

Personally I think Summon Monster tends to be better just because you get both more levels to choose from and more options at each level.
There are all of 8 different Undead you can choose from with Summon Undead (assuming you don't count different kinds of Skeletons or Zombies as separate). The lowest number from any individual level of Summon Monster is 12.

On the other hand, Undead have their own perks that make them more effective for combat, and you might be able to work something out with your DM for other kinds of Undead.

[Cloud]

To be honest Summon Monster I and Summon Undead I are both useless for combat, but can be useful for scouting/exploring/setting off traps, and for that purpose Summon Monster I is much more useful. Summon Monster II is well...overwhelmingly meh. Summon Undead II has an owlbear skeleton to rip face off, so it wins there. Summon Undead III is better again for combat with the troll skeleton, however Summon Monster III can summon things with abilities now, like the dretch. Summon Undead IV and Summon Undead V are both terrible, short of summoning incorporeal things and watching your DM realise most monsters can't hurt them. (Also you can use the Shadow and any way to control the spawn to start the shadow apocolypse, maybe avoid that though). Aside from that though, Summon Monster from IV up just has more and more options, which are better in combat, utility, and spell-like abilities.

...So basically if I'm picking between Summon Monster and Summon Undead (sure I can't poach Summon Nature's Ally? XD), I'd pick neither at 1st level and get wand of Summon Monster I, 2nd and 3rd level spells if I'm not focusing on summoning at all I'll pick Summon Undead II and III (important note, undead can't use the +4 Con from Augment Summoning, and Malconvoker needs you to summon fiends). 4th level spells and up back to Summon Monster all the way.

That being said, level 3 is iffy...Summon Undead II is a definite win over Summon Monster II, Summon Monster II isn't useful for combat and doesn't add more utility than the level 1 version. Summon Monster III though is certainly passable in combat (celestial bison or fiendish apes with augment summoning say hi) while simultaneously being useful in other ways.

[NoACWarrior]

Forgot to add that undead are not as good at special combat actions as other monsters especially at summon monster 5. Undead take a hit to BAB which is very helpful to keep a grapple or other special combat ability. Undead can also have lower HP totals since their con is eliminated.

[Deophaun]

That being said, level 3 is iffy...Summon Undead II is a definite win over Summon Monster II, Summon Monster II isn't useful for combat and doesn't add more utility than the level 1 version. Summon Monster III though is certainly passable in combat (celestial bison or fiendish apes with augment summoning say hi) while simultaneously being useful in other ways.
Not entirely. Fiendish hawks make excellent delivery systems for alchemical items and various other magical ordinance (consider: fiendish creatures can read).