Bardic Gish Help?

[cecil1994]

Hey guys.
I'm trying to make a bard gish, probably bard/warblade. I was thinking something like Bard 4/Warblade 1/JPM 4/Swiftblade 1/Sublime Chord 1/Swiftblade 8/Spelldancer 1. (My DM let's is put 2 ranks more than the maximum into any one skill, so I can qualify for JPM early).

Is this a decent build? My problem with it is that the gishy stuff comes later, as we're starting at third level and I'd like to hit the ground running.

Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks!

[Pathagaron]

I think most gish builds prefer crusader for JPM for the martial base class because warblade doesn't synergize with disciplines as well.

I have a player going Bard 4/ Crusader 2/ JPM 4/ ... with a house rule that armored casting is a -20% Arcane SF, a bunch of wand buffs, and mithral fullplate, he's rather tanky.

[Adverb]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338243-Chordsage!

[Socratov]

Well, the chordsage is one thing (and it is awesome), however, have you thought about Bardblade (going for some DFI optimization coupled with White Raven tactics), entering into Swiftblade? You still have only minor casting and initiating, but you'll have the ability to (slightly) abuse the action economy...

[cecil1994]

Well, I was going for more of a damage dealing "Skald" type of character, which is why I went warblade instead of crusader. And for the feats, the only ones I thought were good were Song of the Heart, Power Attack, Dragonfire Inspiration, and Song of the White Raven. I was going to use Inspirational Boost and that one item that gives +1 bardic music for 4d6 bonus damage.

As a note, my DM is fine with discipline swapping. Would giving swordsage White Raven for Stone Dragon make it as viable as the warblade?

[DCraw]

The main thing that leaps out is that by taking Swiftblade you are giving up on level 9 spells. A Sublime Chord is already a level behind a Sorcerer (2 behind a Wizard), so further CL loss is painful. Your current build will only get 8th level spells and 4th level maneuvers. It's also worth noting that the requirements for Swiftblade can be quite tough if you actually have to play through them. You have to spend an entire level casting no other 3rd levels spells but Haste. It's a good spell, but you may want to broaden your horizons somewhat.

I'd also suggest clarifying with your DM whether Sudden Casting turns Haste into a free action or a swift action. The text says that it becomes a free action "as if augmented by Quicken Spell...". Quicken spell only decreases the casting time to a swift action, not a free action. I'd be surprised if your DM allowed free action casting, but it's worth asking as the entry is legitimately ambiguous.

It's also probably not worth taking Song of the White Raven. Even with a vest of Legends, it won't bump you up a breakpoint. All you would be getting is swift action IC/DFI, but as an initiator, you have enough competition for your swift actions. You'd be better off spending the feat on Words of Creation (and accepting the RP implications), which doubles your IC or DFI bonus. Also, you should be aware that both Inspirational Boost and a Badge of Valor require a swift action to cast/activate, and so they conflict with Song of the White Raven (as well as each other).

Edit: White Raven is generally better than Stone Dragon, but Warblade is probably still the better chassis. +1 unnamed bonus to initiative is pretty sweet, and Weapon Focus is a common(ish) prerequisite feat, but your Wis score is likely to be negligible, Uncanny Dodge is more useful than Weapon Focus (except as a feat tax), Warblades have better BAB (by 1 at level 2), and Warblades have a much better recovery mechanic than Swordsages.

[cecil1994]

Thanks for the help. Would you say Swiftblade isn't worth it? I could go

Bard 4/Warblade 1/JPM 4/Swiftblade 1/Sublime Chord 2/Spelldancer 5/Swiftblade 2/JPM 1, or

Bard 4/Warblade 1/JPM 4/Sublime Chord 1/Spelldancer 4/JPM 6

And, would sorcerer or wizard do this better at low levels? The reason I like bard is IC, and there doesn't seem to be any spells that buff as well as it in the low levels.

[DCraw]

Swiftblade is very powerful, but you have to be aware of what you're giving up. Those lost CLs hurt.

Bard is fine at low levels. You're starting at 3rd, which means that you should be able to use IC in most combats, and your casting should still be enough to get you through the rest.

I'd advise against taking too many levels in spelldancer. By the time you're using the abilities, a DC of 12-15+Cha-mod won't affect most enemies. Wasting a round dancing to reduce metamagic costs by 1 is also almost certainly not worth it. By that point in your character's progression you should be trying to cast multiple spells each round, not spending multiple rounds casting a spell ...

Honestly, while all of your builds are viable, none of them are substantially more powerful than a simple Bard 7 / Warblade 2 / JPM 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / JPM 9.

[cecil1994]

Ok, thanks. I'll probably use that build. (But as a note, the real beauty of Spelldancer is getting free persists. But that might not be worth it on this build).

[DCraw]

If you're willing to abuse persist spell, then yes, Spelldancer 1 can be powerful. That said, subsequent levels typically aren't worth it. Just remember that in order to get 9th level maneuvers you can have at most 6 levels in non-martial-adept classes, and so you need to choose between 9th level spells and maneuvers.