Why is Erudite tier 2?

[NumbersLetters]

The Erudite is a variant of the psion where they can gain an infinite number of spells known. Even without the spell to power varient shouldn't they be teir 1?


According to JaronK's teir list the erudite is tier one with the spell to power varient but only tier two with out it.
The definition of tier 1 is Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.
Under this definition doesn't the ability for an erudite to gain any psionic power alone grant it tier 1 status?
If psions are tier 2 then shouldn't the ability to learn any power make the Erudite tier 1


Erudite:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b
Spell to power varient:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a
JaronK's tier list:
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=96j04g7c9j1i5vfujogv02m5a2&topic=658

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's a little harder for the Erudite or Psion to get access to all the powers, since they have to pay exp to learn new powers/manifest Psychic Reformation, but the big reason probably is that there aren't a tenth as many powers as there are spells. There's just... a lot less (practical) abuse you can pull off as a psionic character.

StP Erudite is, of course, unequivocally Tier 1, and damn near the top of that pile.

[AmberVael]

Unique powers per day also really stings if you play under the more sensible interpretation of it. Sure you might have a ton of powers, but if you have access to less powers over the course of a day than even a Wilder (you know, assuming the wilder has ever picked up expanded knowledge or the educated variant) you're gonna hit some rough spots. Having the ability to vary your powers each day only helps so much, in the end.

There are various ways to get around this of course, but I'd class most of them as "shenanigans."

[NumbersLetters]

So then the reason that an Erudite, without StP, is not tier 1, because of the limited abuse of psionic powers.
If there were as many powers as spells, would an erudite be tier 1?

[Somensjev]

So then the reason that an Erudite, without StP, is not tier 1 is not because of their access to powers but instead due to the limited abuse possible powers.
If there were as many powers as spells, would an erudite be tier 1?

but can't the stp erudite learn spells and powers? so if there was as many powers as spells the stp would still be twice as versatile as the normal erudite? so the normal erudite would probably be a tier one, but you'd make the stp even more of a tier 0

and i think most people would rather avoid the stp becoming any more powerful/versatile

[Eldest]

but can't the stp erudite learn spells and powers? so if there was as many powers as spells the stp would still be twice as versatile as the normal erudite? so the normal erudite would probably be a tier one, but you'd make the stp even more of a tier 0

and i think most people would rather avoid the stp becoming any more powerful/versatile

The erudite is tier two because it has access to all of the psionic powers given time. They are strong but not to the degree that the wizard with all the spells would get.

The spell to power erudite is, indeed, more powerful, at least tier one (with an argument possible for tier zero). It has all the spells. Spells are more powerful than powers.


So then the reason that an Erudite, without StP, is not tier 1, because of the limited abuse of psionic powers.
If there were as many powers as spells, would an erudite be tier 1?

Y'know, I doubt that if there were as many powers as spells, the psionics would be just as broken, since such a large percentage of the broken spells are from core and I'd hope that the designers would look at that and go "that was broken, let's not do that".

[CyberThread]

but spirit shaman is tier 1, and they use the druid casting, which you could argue is not as effective as the psion list.

[AmberVael]

but spirit shaman is tier 1, and they use the druid casting, which you could argue is not as effective as the psion list.

Consider the following:
1) The druid list is freaking massive. The psion list may have proportionally more good stuff in it, but the druid has far more stuff to choose from, and thus the good spells available to it still add up to a sizable number.
2) Spirit shaman knows all druid spells automatically, while Erudite has to seek out other psionic powers and pay experience for them.
3) Erudite has a number of unique powers per day equal to half their level, +1, rounded down. Spirit shaman's retrieved spells start off similarly small, but grows exponentially. In the end, Erudite has 11 powers per day, Spirit Shaman has well over twice that (26), not counting orisons.

[nedz]

T1 is about strategic flexibility. Can the Erudite change his powers on a day to day basis ?
The answer is No, so Erudite is not T1.
T2 is about tactical flexibility with spells/powers chosen from a broad list. Erudite fits this description.

Interestingly Spirit Shaman has both characteristics, which is why some argue that it's not T1.

[NumbersLetters]

T1 is about strategic flexibility. Can the Erudite change his powers on a day to day basis ?
The answer is No, so Erudite is not T1.
T2 is about tactical flexibility with spells/powers chosen from a broad list. Erudite fits this description.


An erudite can change powers on a day to day basis, that is what makes is different from a psion.
Just like a wizard has flexibility because of is large number of spells in is spell book, the erudite has flexibility because of the large number of powers learned.

I agree that it might not be tier 1 because of the lack of power in psionics but from a pure stand point of flexibility, especially because it doesn't prepare powers, in my opinion it should be tier 1.

[Eldest]

but spirit shaman is tier 1, and they use the druid casting, which you could argue is not as effective as the psion list.

You could argue that. I would disagree.

[Aliek]

The Erudite is a bit of a borderline T1/T2 IMO.

Psionics-wise, he's easily the most versatile without losing in power, so "t1"(not counting variants, that is). Thus it all boils down to whether nigh-complete access to psionics is enough to bring someone to t1.

I believe that it should. As much as there's more spells, powers have their own tricks too. Action economy abuse ahoy!

It does lose out on quite a few gems of spellcasting(Planar binding, fog spells...) but there's equivalency in some(Teleport, reality revision, metamorphosis) and still its own(Synchronicity, hustle)

That's not to say it evens out in the end. But if there's at least one psionic class that can be considered t1, it's the erudite.

[Coidzor]

but spirit shaman is tier 1, and they use the druid casting, which you could argue is not as effective as the psion list.

There's also a fairly common argument for it being T2 due to the limitations of Spirit Shaman casting which are somewhat analogous to the limitations of Erudite manifesting.

[CIDE]

I'm just not seeing the arguments for the Erudite being T2. Sure, it takes a little bit more in order to have the same versatility as a Wizard but that was never a requirement for T1; just that it had that versatility. And it doesn't have to change it's layout day by day because it doesn't have to prepare; it can know every single power out there. Even with just hte psion list (and EVERYTHING on it) you can get builds to top a wizard (granted, that includes the astral seed+fusion tricks).

Only reason the Psion was ever regarded as T2 was because it was limited and couldn't go outside of its standard list without burning feats or shenanigans to do so.

[DMVerdandi]

Base Erudite is absolutely tier 1 after getting about 4 unique powers per day.
One must remember, that they don't need to have all of their powers on hand, they can make power stones, or dorjes or whatever they need.
Aside from that, they also are not limited to what level their powers are, nor do they have to prepare their powers, you cast them once, and then can cast them all day after, and before they are used, that is one manifestation slot that is open. So with 4 powers it is essentially blank which looks like so ( /-/-/-/-/).

Now, if you simply take two slots for an energy power(I like ray) and the second for astral construct, then you really don't NEED anything else really.

It isn't like a wizard, no, more like a cracked out warlock, but it needs to be used intelligently. Pick a REALLY small amount of core powers that you are going to use and everything else comes as a need to manifest basis. With all of the good powers under his belt, and up to 8th level discipline powers, this guy is much more variable than a generic psion could be (sans cheese).

Moreover, the best thing to do is not to be batman, but to specialize in roles every day, and to change your roles based on the campaign. An erudite can be EVERY subtype of psion, rather than just one.

[Psyren]

Note that tiers can change with level, e.g. the Truenamer hitting T2/T1 once it gets gate, or a Mystic SOtAO Ranger being T1 before level 10 or so then falling. Therefore, once an Erudite gains a sufficient level to have multiple UPD, a UPD-ignoring trick like Soul Crystal, and/or enough WBL to craft several stones, they become T1 easily. Before that point however I would put them at T2.

[137beth]

I think there is a case to be made either way. If DMM is banned, there are many ways in which the erudite is arguably more potent than the cleric. Even with DMM, Euridites arguably have a better handling of the non-summoning/non-calling action economy than clerics do at mid levels. Craft Contingent Spell is a thing for clerics, though, and DMM:Persist is another form of action economy breaking that Euridites don't have. It also changes a fair amount by level, depending on which of the best cleric spells are available. No matter what, the Euridite isn't going to reach the level of a druid or wizard, but it does have a shot at the cleric, at least part of the time. Eventually it is going to fall behind the cleric, I think, because the cleric can keep its low-level and mid-level short-duration buffs up all day for no action costs with Persist. The cleric is then free to spend its actions on Miracles, along with the Miracles/Wishes cast by its Gated allies. And let's not forget that with the right domains a cleric can learn Time Stop, PAO, and Shapechange.

[Lans]

T1 is about strategic flexibility. Can the Erudite change his powers on a day to day basis ?
The answer is No, so Erudite is not T1.
T2 is about tactical flexibility with spells/powers chosen from a broad list. Erudite fits this description.
.

Being able to change spells/powers on a daily basis probably isn't a complete limiting factor, unless you don't think rainbow warsnake is a tier 1.

[HunterOfJello]

Depends on the interpretation of the unique powers per day line.

An Erudite 10 (going by the table) only gets 6 unique powers per day total that they can use. Even if they choose the most versatile and useful power to fit each specific scenario that they run into, there just won't be enough to go around with.

A sorcerer of the same level knows 15 unique spells (ignoring cantrips) spread out over the spell levels and a Spirit Shaman can prepare 11 unique spells (ignoring orisons) spread out over their spell levels. A wizard of the same level can prepare 18 different unique spells (ignoring cantrips and bonus specialist spells, but assuming the wizard has 15 int and can therefore cast spells of all of his known spell levels) each day from a large list and cherry pick each of those spells to use as he thinks the situation will call for.

The large "versatility" of choice that the Erudite has the start of each day just isn't enough to mitigate their massively limiting options of choice in order to ever jump up into the Tier 1 category. The only way to do that is by gaining Spell-to-Power or through the other interpretation of their powers per day.

~~~~~~


If you read an erudite 10 as having 6 unique powers per level that they can use each day then the Erudite is most likely Tier 1. That is what the text reads as, but it is also obviously not the intention of the authors. If you do that, then the Erudite 10 can use a total of 30 unique powers per day which is so high above all the other classes that it's far too strong.



Now, if you simply take two slots for an energy power(I like ray) and the second for astral construct, then you really don't NEED anything else really.

It isn't like a wizard, no, more like a cracked out warlock, but it needs to be used intelligently. Pick a REALLY small amount of core powers that you are going to use and everything else comes as a need to manifest basis. With all of the good powers under his belt, and up to 8th level discipline powers, this guy is much more variable than a generic psion could be (sans cheese).

Moreover, the best thing to do is not to be batman, but to specialize in roles every day, and to change your roles based on the campaign. An erudite can be EVERY subtype of psion, rather than just one.

This description makes me more interested in trying the class out sometime. However, it is also a near rote description of Tier 2 rather than Tier 1.

[nedz]

Being able to change spells/powers on a daily basis probably isn't a complete limiting factor, unless you don't think rainbow warsnake is a tier 1.

I don't think Rainbow Warsnake is a tier 1: I think it's tier 0 (Post RS 10 obviously).

Besides we are talking about the lower boundary of T1, not the upper boundary.