Who has a better power/spell list, druids or psions?

[CyberThread]

Who exactly has a better selection do you think to chose from , druids or psions ?

[bekeleven]

Druid is the weakest 9s list in core, but gets added every splat. More splats lets druids overtake psions in may ways, although the druid list never gets very varied late-game. The highest level druid tricks will remain summoning, certain self-buffs, and the occasional damage spell or SoD. In contrast, the psion has many unique or hard-to-find tricks like genesis.

Still, druid's divine all-spell-access combined with its huge numbers of low and mid-level spells gives it a huge step up at doing basically anything you need.

[molten_dragon]

Druids, simply because their list got expanded far more in the splatbooks than psions' list did.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Definitely psion. The druid list is solid and has a lot more splat support but it just can't compete with gems like Temporal Acceleration, Time Hop, Schism, Synchronicity, Anticipatory Strike, Sense Danger, Psychic Reformation, Mind Switch and Fusion.
The druid list is better for summoning, party buffing, healing and BFC but the psion list has superior blasting, utility and action economy tricks while still offering decent BFC and summons.
The only thing psionics really lacks is decent non-self buffs and healing. In all other aspects it can either at least contribute or is superior.

The druid gets a far better chassis though with better HD, saves, skills and great class abilities.

[ryu]

Druids, simply because their list got expanded far more in the splatbooks than psions' list did.

Actually with all splats psion got access to nearly every spell in the game by paying STP Erudites to teach them. If we're talking outer limits the psion gets more.

[molten_dragon]

Actually with all splats psion got access to nearly every spell in the game by paying STP Erudites to teach them. If we're talking outer limits the psion gets more.

Except the OP was asking about psion vs. druid. Presumably he meant the written lists of spells/powers they get access to. StP erudite spells are not on the psion power list.

Besides, if we're playing that fast and loose with the rules, Druids can always use the independent research rules from the PHB to create new custom spells that mimic the effects of any spell or power in the game.

[eggynack]

Do psions get any long term minionmancy options? This could be one of the few cases where druids have the advantage in that arena in list terms. Also relevant is the question of how wild shape is counted. It's not technically a spell, but in a lot of ways it is very much a spell, especially when you're using it to make zombies, or dimension door around, or really a lot of things. Speaking of which, how are psion teleportation options without psychoportation? Another consideration, are we taking discipline powers into account, and if so, of which discipline?

[paddyfool]

Do psions get any long term minionmancy options?

The only stuff I'm aware of are some of the psycrystal tricks.

[AmberVael]

Do psions get any long term minionmancy options? This could be one of the few cases where druids have the advantage in that arena in list terms. Also relevant is the question of how wild shape is counted. It's not technically a spell, but in a lot of ways it is very much a spell, especially when you're using it to make zombies, or dimension door around, or really a lot of things. Speaking of which, how are psion teleportation options without psychoportation? Another consideration, are we taking discipline powers into account, and if so, of which discipline?

Long term minionmancy... they have a number of summon powers, but generally they're all 1/round per level. You might manage something with Charm/Dominate, I suppose?

Without psychoportation? Lets assume you meant the 'Nomad Discipline,' since well, if you took out Conjuration (Teleportation) there wouldn't be many teleportation spells left either and that's effectively what you're asking.

Psionic Dimension Door and Greater Psionic Teleport are both on the main psion/wilder list, plus a few other nifty teleportation options (Inconstant Location). Psions have this more covered than Druid, even if Druid gets the mighty Master Earth.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Do psions get any long term minionmancy options? This could be one of the few cases where druids have the advantage in that arena in list terms. Also relevant is the question of how wild shape is counted. It's not technically a spell, but in a lot of ways it is very much a spell, especially when you're using it to make zombies, or dimension door around, or really a lot of things. Speaking of which, how are psion teleportation options without psychoportation? Another consideration, are we taking discipline powers into account, and if so, of which discipline?

Psions have access to Thrallherd. Now, I know that's not a spell list issue but it's something awesome. Snag that and summons become..... cool, ya know. Kind of.(Have a color for sarcasm, just not jokes)

[sleepyphoenixx]

Do psions get any long term minionmancy options? This could be one of the few cases where druids have the advantage in that arena in list terms. Also relevant is the question of how wild shape is counted. It's not technically a spell, but in a lot of ways it is very much a spell, especially when you're using it to make zombies, or dimension door around, or really a lot of things. Speaking of which, how are psion teleportation options without psychoportation? Another consideration, are we taking discipline powers into account, and if so, of which discipline?

The druid spell list isn't that good at long term minionmancy either unless you expand the spell list with PrCs, feats or items, but it has some options. SNA is imo superior to Astral Construct, at least at the later levels thanks to SLAs. If you include feats the druid certainly comes out ahead with things like Greenbound Summoning, Rashemi Elemental Summoning and Ashbound. They can also easily get access to Summon Monster, Planar Binding/Ally and Gate.

I wouldn't count wild shape when considering spell lists but on the whole it's certainly a plus for the druid. (Greater) Metamorphosis provides similar utility but can't keep up when you consider feats, Enhance Wildshape, PrCs like Planar Shepherd and Shapechange.

Class vs class the druid comes out ahead imo. Spell list vs power list (with disciplines) i prefer the psion simply for the ability to mess with the action economy while still remaining competitive in most other areas.
It's just too great an advantage to dismiss.

[eggynack]

Without psychoportation? Lets assume you meant the 'Nomad Discipline,' since well, if you took out Conjuration (Teleportation) there wouldn't be many teleportation spells left either and that's effectively what you're asking.
It's a similar thing to what I'm asking, but all druids get conjuration (teleportation) spells, while not all psions get nomad powers.


Psionic Dimension Door and Greater Psionic Teleport are both on the main psion/wilder list, plus a few other nifty teleportation options (Inconstant Location). Psions have this more covered than Druid, even if Druid gets the mighty Master Earth.
Psionic teleport is pretty high level, compared to something like transport via plants, stormwalk, or even master earth, as you've mentioned. Druids don't have much tactical teleportation, however, so that's likely a disadvantage for the druid.


The druid spell list isn't that good at long term minionmancy either unless you expand the spell list with PrCs, feats or items, but it has some options. SNA is imo superior to Astral Construct, at least at the later levels thanks to SLAs. If you include feats the druid certainly comes out ahead with things like Greenbound Summoning, Rashemi Elemental Summoning and Ashbound. They can also easily get access to Summon Monster, Planar Binding/Ally and Gate.
It's short, but not infinitely short. You get the sanctified options, like valiant steed, cry of ysgard, and animate with the spirit, the weird zombie type effects, like yellow musk creeper and myconid sovereign forms, as well as the couple of minor wightpocalypse triggering abilities (though you lack ways to control them), along with stuff like awaken. Not great, but I'd suspect better.


I wouldn't count wild shape when considering spell lists but on the whole it's certainly a plus for the druid. (Greater) Metamorphosis provides similar utility but can't keep up when you consider feats, Enhance Wildshape, PrCs like Planar Shepherd and Shapechange.

Class vs class the druid comes out ahead imo. Spell list vs power list (with disciplines) i prefer the psion simply for the ability to mess with the action economy while still remaining competitive in most other areas.
It's just too great an advantage to dismiss.
I think my issue with not considering wild shape is that it interacts so heavily with how druid list optimization works. For example, without wild shape, I'm not even sure that druid flight options are that good, and the ability to up dexterity makes some ranged (touch) attack spells much more viable. There's lotsa stuff like that, and I don't think that disregarding it gives you the whole picture where list stuff is concerned.

[AmberVael]

It's a similar thing to what I'm asking, but all druids get conjuration (teleportation) spells, while not all psions get nomad powers.

Um.
My point is, Psychoportation spans a notable number of powers across a number of different lists in tons of different classes. It's way larger than just the Nomad discipline list, and in fact larger than the psion class. Barring psychoportation because not all psions get Nomad powers is like barring Druids from conjuration (teleportation) just because they don't get Wizard teleportation spells.

Or to put it in a more straightforward way- you seem to be confusing psionic disciplines (which are the equivalent to magical schools) with the special Psion discipline power lists. The Psion discipline power lists are themed after the psionic disciplines, but all the powers in the main lists are divided into the disciplines too. So by barring Psychoportation, you bar all the teleportation powers that exist whether they're on the nomad power list or not.

Edit: ...my explanations are really messy and confusing. Sorry. :smallfrown:

[Rubik]

Um.
My point is, Psychoportation spans a notable number of powers across a number of different lists in tons of different classes. It's way larger than just the Nomad discipline list, and in fact larger than the psion class. Barring psychoportation because not all psions get Nomad powers is like barring Druids from conjuration (teleportation) just because they don't get Wizard teleportation spells.

Or to put it in a more straightforward way- you seem to be confusing psionic disciplines (which are the equivalent to magical schools) with the special Psion discipline power lists. The Psion discipline power lists are themed after the psionic disciplines, but all the powers in the main lists are divided into the disciplines too. So by barring Psychoportation, you bar all the teleportation powers that exist whether they're on the nomad power list or not.

Edit: ...my explanations are really messy and confusing. Sorry. :smallfrown:In other words, all teleportation powers are psychoportation, so if you ban psychoportation, their teleportation options are literally nonexistent, because you just banned them all.

[eggynack]

Um.
My point is, Psychoportation spans a notable number of powers across a number of different lists in tons of different classes. It's way larger than just the Nomad discipline list, and in fact larger than the psion class. Barring psychoportation because not all psions get Nomad powers is like barring Druids from conjuration (teleportation) just because they don't get Wizard teleportation spells.

Or to put it in a more straightforward way- you seem to be confusing psionic disciplines (which are the equivalent to magical schools) with the special Psion discipline power lists. The Psion discipline power lists are themed after the psionic disciplines, but all the powers in the main lists are divided into the disciplines too. So by barring Psychoportation, you bar all the teleportation powers that exist whether they're on the nomad power list or not.

Sure. I meant the other thing. Our psion will have access to those powers, but will likely lack access to some powers, like psionic teleportation. Without that short list of powers, this psion is reasonably likely to be worse at teleportation, or such is the claim. All psions get greater psionic teleportation, but that power is of a higher level than the options druids get access to, which likely puts the advantage in the hands of the druid.

[Captnq]

Druid. Because I'm like smart and stuff.

[BrokenChord]

Druid. Because I'm like smart and stuff.

Funny, I was sure Psions were the ones who used their intelligence :smallamused: :smallbiggrin: