An overdeity = one crystal sphere?

[FenAseph]

Basically, I'm wondering if an overdeity can create/have one and only one crystal sphere or can create/have multiple crystal spheres as dominions.
For example, Ao has created the crystal sphere that holds Abeir-Toril worlds + the planetary system. But could he create and other spheres?

[toapat]

Basically, I'm wondering if an overdeity can create/have one and only one crystal sphere or can create/have multiple crystal spheres as dominions.
For example, Ao has created the crystal sphere that holds Abeir-Toril worlds + the planetary system. But could he create and other spheres?

Ao probably can, but is disallowed from doing so or Faerun is so prototypical that he has to babysit it constantly.

Io probably went and made Eberron at some point

we dont have any other confirmed Overdeities. The Lady of Pain is considered one but is officially unknown.

[MadGreenSon]

From what little material there is on Ao, it seems as if he/it is mainly over that one crystal sphere and collection of gods (as if that weren't enough of a job).

So the answer is...maybe? It's hard to say as the powers of an overdeity are basically "Omnipotence".

I'd wonder if Ao would want to give the fractious, lunatic children called "gods" that he's in charge of another sphere to screw up, but that's just me.

[jedipotter]

There is no offical answer.


As far as the books go, it is one overdeity, one sphere. But sphere's are a 2E term only. We have never seen much about 'overdeities' in 3E or 4E.

A 'sphere' is a bit like saying 'solar system', so maybe you could run more then one. Unless all overdeities are the same single deity. Or maybe there are overover deities?

[FenAseph]

It's true that other overdeities aren't mentioned, but I have read the Avatar trilogy (well, partially) and I recall one sentence saying that there are millions of other assignments as that of Ao. That makes me think that there are at least millions of overdeities.
And I wonder if these are single or multiple assignments. In the sense of the topic title.

[Alleran]

It's true that other overdeities aren't mentioned, but I have read the Avatar trilogy (well, partially) and I recall one sentence saying that there are millions of other assignments as that of Ao. That makes me think that there are at least millions of overdeities.
And I wonder if these are single or multiple assignments. In the sense of the topic title.
Not all crystal spheres have an overpower. Some do, and some don't. Nobody knows why.

Ao isn't the only overpower, though. There is also an overdeity for Krynn, known as the High One. It was only ever mentioned once, when Takhisis swore an oath to Huma (she swore by the authority of the High One), and beyond that has even less active influence than Ao.

[toapat]

Not all crystal spheres have an overpower. Some do, and some don't. Nobody knows why.

Ao isn't the only overpower, though. There is also an overdeity for Krynn, known as the High One. It was only ever mentioned once, when Takhisis swore an oath to Huma (she swore by the authority of the High One), and beyond that has even less active influence than Ao.

the overdeity of Kyrnn is Io, which is why i said he probably went and made eberron because hes not doing anything anyway, just sitting back, drinking martinis and watching the chaos.

[Mando Knight]

the overdeity of Kyrnn is Io, which is why i said he probably went and made eberron because hes not doing anything anyway, just sitting back, drinking martinis and watching the chaos.

Or got himself chopped in half while trying to help the deities of the standard 4e setting.

[Alleran]

the overdeity of Kyrnn is Io, which is why i said he probably went and made eberron because hes not doing anything anyway, just sitting back, drinking martinis and watching the chaos.
Io is a separate deity to the High One. The High One is an overpower, and Io is described in the Draconomicon as an Intermediate deity.

[MadGreenSon]

Io is a separate deity to the High One. The High One is an overpower, and Io is described in the Draconomicon as an Intermediate deity.

Call me old-school, but I nearly threw the Draconomicon across the room when I read that. The Ninefold Dragon is not an Intermediate deity. :smallfurious:

In 2nd Edition, where I first encounter the ruler of the dragon gods, he was described in such a way as to either be a high-end Greater Deity or an Overdeity.

Io is distant, powerful and not an Intermediate deity. Whoever wrote the flavor on that was not doing the research.

That is my stance, and I will not be moved. :smallwink:

[afroakuma]

the overdeity of Kyrnn is Io

That is incorrect. The Highgod and the Ninefold Dragon are not one and the same. If there is an analogue to Io in the Dragonlance pantheon, it is Chaos, Father of All and of Nothing, whose real name kind of gives it away.

Of the known overpowers, both have been shown to oversee only one crystal sphere. Given their role, it's very likely that while not all crystal spheres have an overdeity, each overdeity watches over only one crystal sphere.

[Alleran]

Call me old-school, but I nearly threw the Draconomicon across the room when I read that. The Ninefold Dragon is not an Intermediate deity. :smallfurious:

In 2nd Edition, where I first encounter the ruler of the dragon gods, he was described in such a way as to either be a high-end Greater Deity or an Overdeity.

Io is distant, powerful and not an Intermediate deity. Whoever wrote the flavor on that was not doing the research.
Put it down to worship of the draconic powers diminishing in general. Bahamut and Tiamat are lesser deities, for example (in Realmspace they dropped down to DvR 0 for a long time, until they eventually "regenerated" their power back up to lesser deity status). The earliest note I can casually find on Io in AD&D, though, was when he was called Asgorath in Cult of the Dragon and had "is also known as Io" - that credited him as only a greater deity with the portfolio of Creation who was also very distant from his followers (not a good thing when belief = power).

Still, nothing quoted does anything to dispute Io not being the High One of Krynn.

[MadGreenSon]

Put it down to worship of the draconic powers diminishing in general. Bahamut and Tiamat are lesser deities, for example (in Realmspace they dropped down to DvR 0 for a long time, until they eventually "regenerated" their power back up to lesser deity status). The earliest note I can casually find on Io in AD&D, though, was when he was called Asgorath in Cult of the Dragon and had "is also known as Io" - that credited him as only a greater deity with the portfolio of Creation who was also very distant from his followers (not a good thing when belief = power).


I can think of at least one realm, where distant or not, Io is the most widely worshipped god by dragons and humans: The Council of Wyrms setting. That was an awesome campaign setting that my group and I played in for years.

The fun part was, Io decreed that all dragons should live in as much harmony as possible in the Io's Blood chain of islands (more like micro-continents, really) and meet in Council to settle disputes, etc. Then also sent human dragonslayers to harass and harm the dragons there to give them a good reason to work together (not that the humans or dragons were aware of this)

So it may be that whatever aspect of Io is in the Realms is not uber-powerful, but the being as a whole is the ruler of all of the dragon gods, and among dragons asskicking usually equals authority.




Still, nothing quoted does anything to dispute Io not being the High One of Krynn.

Eh, maybe he is. Never thought about it, but the one time I ran Dragonlance I had a hard time remembering not to call Takisis, Tiamat. :smalltongue:

[afroakuma]

the one time I ran Dragonlance I had a hard time remembering not to call Takisis, Tiamat. :smalltongue:

They're actually very different goddesses in practice who just happen to share the five-headed dragon motif.

[otakumick]

Maybe Io is an overdeity and what everyone thinks is the deity Io is actually just an avatar of Io :smalltongue: since avatars are typically much weaker than the actual statted deity. Therefore in places where he is intermediate or greater, is just a difference in how much power he put into the avatar he put into that world to look after his interests there.

[iceman10058]

Io is only an intermediate diety because of the amount of worshipers he has. not because of his power.

[otakumick]

I was under the impression that Intermediate/Demi/Greater and all that was a function of Divine Rank, therefore wouldn't that title be somewhat representative of power level?

[MadGreenSon]

They're actually very different goddesses in practice who just happen to share the five-headed dragon motif.

That is very true. However there are also many similarities: control of chromatic dragons, evil knights, lots of human worshipers, five heads, minions that hatch from dragon eggs, etc.
In practice however, Tiamat is more of a howling lunatic than Takisis who is much more of a mastermind type.
I kept that straight.:smallbiggrin:





Maybe Io is an overdeity and what everyone thinks is the deity Io is actually just an avatar of Io :smalltongue: since avatars are typically much weaker than the actual statted deity. Therefore in places where he is intermediate or greater, is just a difference in how much power he put into the avatar he put into that world to look after his interests there.

Y'know what? If it ever comes up. This is the explanation I'm going with. :smalltongue:

[georgie_leech]

Or maybe there are overover deities?

For what it's worth, the Avatar Trilogy written by Richard Awlinson implies there is. At the very end of the final book Waterdeep, after the Time of Troubles is resolved, you find the following passage:

Ao closed his eyes and blanked his mind. Soon, he fell within himself and entered the place before time, the time at the edge of the universe, where millions and millions of assignments like his began and ended.
A luminous presence greeted him, enveloping his energies within its own. It was both a warm and cold entity, forgiving and harsh. "And how does you cosmos fare, Ao?" The voice was at once both gentle and admonishing.
"They have restored the Balance, Master. The Realms are once again secure."

[iceman10058]

I was under the impression that Intermediate/Demi/Greater and all that was a function of Divine Rank, therefore wouldn't that title be somewhat representative of power level?

i was always under the impression that it represented the number of devout followers and their status in the pantheon, not how much power they have amassed.

[FenAseph]

I do believe there is a hierarchy between overdeities. An overdeity that can create and maintain 1000 crystal spheres simultaneously is more "powerful" than a overdeity that can create and maintain only a crystal sphere.
That's why I asked if overdeity can only have a crystal sphere or more.
Of course, maybe I'm wrong...

[Devils_Advocate]

Deities and Demigods outright states "A deity’s divine rank determines how much power the entity has". It also explains how divine rank is proportional to number of worshipers. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineRanks)

Gods Need Prayer Badly (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly).

Of course, overdeities are so powerful as to be exempt from this. Like some crazily epic wizard who cast a crazily epic spell that lets him cast all of his spells whenever he wants without limit, because screw limits.

Alternately, it could be that they're actually a fundamentally different type of entity, and thus possibly subject to different limitations even while being generally more powerful. It might even be that each one is only able to influence a single crystal sphere, whereas gods can have influence across multiple spheres and planes of existence. Maybe overdeities are so distant from mortals because worship is bad for them. Perhaps enough of it could pull one down to mere deity status.

The position of the one relatively well-known cosmic-level genius loci on the subject certainly brings to mind many fascinating theories. But then, isn't that the case with everything about Her Serenity?

[Alleran]

Alternately, it could be that they're actually a fundamentally different type of entity, and thus possibly subject to different limitations even while being generally more powerful. It might even be that each one is only able to influence a single crystal sphere, whereas gods can have influence across multiple spheres and planes of existence.
Ao mentions many assignments like his, so the Toril/Realmspace crystal sphere is only one of them. Even if they technically have effectively limitless power, it isn't their assignment to administer it across the planes. IIRC, Planescape did have something somewhere about not all crystal spheres having an overgod (or at least not having a known overgod), but I can't find it right now. Regardless, overgods are always treated in a "confusing" fashion, where nobody really knows much (if anything) about them. And Chant goes that the confusion might be how they prefer it.

[ngilop]

For what it's worth, the Avatar Trilogy written by Richard Awlinson implies there is. At the very end of the final book Waterdeep, after the Time of Troubles is resolved, you find the following passage:

Ao closed his eyes and blanked his mind. Soon, he fell within himself and entered the place before time, the time at the edge of the universe, where millions and millions of assignments like his began and ended.
A luminous presence greeted him, enveloping his energies within its own. It was both a warm and cold entity, forgiving and harsh. "And how does you cosmos fare, Ao?" The voice was at once both gentle and admonishing.
"They have restored the Balance, Master. The Realms are once again secure."

That is actually a reference to a D&D games DM not an over-overdiety.

[otakumick]

That is actually a reference to a D&D games DM not an over-overdiety.

Pretty sure that that is the metacontext, but then would not the DM technically be over the overdeity.... thereby being an over-overdeity :smalltongue:

[FenAseph]

Ao mentions many assignments like his, so the Toril/Realmspace crystal sphere is only one of them. Even if they technically have effectively limitless power, it isn't their assignment to administer it across the planes. IIRC, Planescape did have something somewhere about not all crystal spheres having an overgod (or at least not having a known overgod), but I can't find it right now. Regardless, overgods are always treated in a "confusing" fashion, where nobody really knows much (if anything) about them. And Chant goes that the confusion might be how they prefer it.

Maybe each crystal sphere was created by an overgod, but not all the crystal spheres are maintained by an overgod. In other words, an overgod can create a crystal sphere, then abandon it.
So a crystal sphere may not have an overgod, although it was initially created by an overgod.
How does that sound?

[FenAseph]

That is actually a reference to a D&D games DM not an over-overdiety.

Not necessarily. Perhaps the Master is an over-overdeity. Why not? Nothing is suggesting that the divine ierarchy has an end. Maybe there is an infinite number of divine ranks, thus an infinity of over-entities.

[iceman10058]

Maybe each crystal sphere was created by an overgod, but not all the crystal spheres are maintained by an overgod. In other words, an overgod can create a crystal sphere, then abandon it.
So a crystal sphere may not have an overgod, although it was initially created by an overgod.
How does that sound?

i like that, alot. it would also make sence. or maybe the overgod that created it has so many spheres that he cannot be everywhere at once, and can only influence events on one or 2 at a time,

[unseenmage]

i like that, alot. it would also make sence. or maybe the overgod that created it has so many spheres that he cannot be everywhere at once, and can only influence events on one or 2 at a time,

You know, kind of like a writer or a DM or a gaming company which has too many campaign settings to manage all at once... Wait a minnut!

[FenAseph]

Talking about assignments, that I had in mind when I opened the topic. Namely, if some overgods can have multiple assignments. Is there any rule that an overgod can only have one assignment?

[Alleran]

Talking about assignments, that I had in mind when I opened the topic. Namely, if some overgods can have multiple assignments. Is there any rule that an overgod can only have one assignment?
Nobody knows.

[Max Caysey]

Basically, I'm wondering if an overdeity can create/have one and only one crystal sphere or can create/have multiple crystal spheres as dominions.
For example, Ao has created the crystal sphere that holds Abeir-Toril worlds + the planetary system. But could he create and other spheres?

I'm pretty sure he can. AO just created Realms Space, not reason or mentioning any where I know of that says that he cant create another one. One thing might be, that just like the tablets of fate there coulb be a more cosic version of this dictatinig AO to realmspace like the dieties and their portfolio...

On the notion on Io... I personally dont think his power changes from realm to ream. Its the total amount of worshippers across the multives that gives him power. It does not matter if its 1 percent here 10 there... its the total. But being god of the dragon gods he basically on par, status wise, with AO... So intermediate deity is wrong. Mayby not DR 21 but high teens for sure. Personally I would give him DR 20... just under AO's 21+

[lunar2]

i like the avatar explanation. Io is an overdeity that got around the "only interact with one sphere at a time" limit by creating a separate, intermediate deity avatar for each sphere with dragons in it. so the only difference between him and Ao is that Ao concentrates all his power on one sphere, while Io spreads his power to watch over all dragons, everywhere.