4e Acrobatics.

[Joval]

So I'm thinking about retraining my Acrobatics, as it seems completely useless. I think my DM may be limiting it more than necessary, so I wanted your thoughts. For Example: He will allow us to use it to somersault over an enemy, but not somersault over water from platform to platform. Even with a Pole Vault, after the classic Acrobat, he says that is still athletics, and all Acrobatics would do is decide how well your form is. We've established that I can't use it to catch my balance when falling off a cliff, and that I can only make a saving throw.

Seriously, does it have any value?

What do you think?

[NecroRebel]

If something about your build is useless, yes, you should retrain it. The tasks that you mention should all be athletics; acrobatics is about maintaining balance and positioning the body without actually moving from place to place. Jumping from platform to platform might require both athletics checks (to jump the distance) and acrobatics checks (to not fall off the platforms after landing), depending on how large the platforms are, but if your DM doesn't require that, again the skill is useless.

[Joval]

But even in the book it says it's good for somersaults. Is that not true anymore?

[Nightgaun7]

But even in the book it says it's good for somersaults. Is that not true anymore?

As a GM, I would allow you to use either for many of those tasks. The value of them depends largely on your GM. Most of my time playing 4E Athletics has been used far more often, but I've never understood why.

[NecroRebel]

But even in the book it says it's good for somersaults. Is that not true anymore?

Acrobatics might be used for somersaults, but for determining both distance and height of a jump, Athletics is the skill. They aren't referenced as a standard thing to do in the Rules Compendium description of the skill.

Even in real life, though, somersaults are mostly for looking cool, not for actually accomplishing anything. If you wanted to jump across a series of small platforms, why would you spin yourself around when doing so? You'd disorient yourself and wouldn't be able to see where you were going half the time because your head would be beneath your feet. Athletics is the more appropriate skill because it's just jumping, but as I said before, you might need Acrobatics checks to not fall off the platforms if they're small or rickety.

[Kurald Galain]

What do you think?

Well, your DM is basically correct. While I've met numerous DMs who let players use athletics and acrobatics interchangeably, (1) that's not RAW, and (2) that turns both skills into a combined "do something sporty with your best stat" skill. Acrobatics is used for e.g. negating falling damage, escaping from bonds, or balancing; not for jumping.

[Inevitability]

I'm currently playing in a campaign where nine out of ten times the DM just says:
'Okay, to climb up the cliffs, make an athletics or acrobatics check, depending on how you fluff it.'

The only one who does not approve of this is my half-orc, who got training in both...

[Dimers]

We've established that I can't use it to catch my balance when falling off a cliff, and that I can only make a saving throw.

Catching your balance should certainly qualify, though it looks like your DM wanted to simply use the existing rule instead. If I were GMing that scene, I'd allow you Acrobatics or a save, but not both. The other applications you described were definitely Athletics.

Acrobatics is also useful if you fight lots of things that grab. Just going by guesswork, I would think most grabbers have higher Fortitude than Reflex, so Acrobatics should be better than Athletics for escaping a hold if your Dex and Str are equal.

[p.d0t]

Yeah, the big problem I've found with acrobatics is that it was basically an attempt to combine balance, tumble, and escape artist from 3.5 into one skill. However, as mentioned, you can use athletics for escape checks and "tumbling to avoid OAs" was replaced by shifting, so acrobatics doesn't actually do that bit. Basically it's left with "balance to avoid falling" and "tumble to avoid falling damage" which are very rare/situational IME.

One note on escape though, is that most monsters that have a grab ability will just have an escape DC, thus not making acrobatics any more useful than athletics for that purpose.

[Kurald Galain]

One note on escape though, is that most monsters that have a grab ability will just have an escape DC, thus not making acrobatics any more useful than athletics for that purpose.

Yeah, they changed that. It used to be athletics-v-fort or acrobatics-v-ref, and some monsters have a markedly higher fortitude (or vice versa). Then some people cried foul on that and they instead made it a flat (and pretty low) escape DC. Of course, real men use teleport powers to escape :smallamused:

Bottom line is that not all skills are equally useful, and they never were. This depends on the DM, but in general a skill like Bluff is probably going to see vastly more use than a skill like Dungeoneering.

[Yakk]

If you can teleport, acrobatics is golden -- LOS rules means you can often teleport **above** a location but not on it.

I also find walking off cliffs to be a useful mobility enhancer.

[Kurald Galain]

I also find walking off cliffs to be a useful mobility enhancer.

True enough. I've been known to perform vertical charges on occasion :smallcool:

[Juzer]

...rule-wise the DM does everything ok:
jump is Athletics, hang on when pushed off a cliff is a plain saving throw

Acrobatics does something different: reduce falling damage, balance on rope&co., free himself from a grasp, acrobatis stunt not covered by other specific rules (aka, not to cover a plain Athletic jump between platforms)

Acrobatics is one of the most useful skills, but it not substitutes other skills

[PhallicWarrior]

Acrobatics CAN be a tremendously valuable skill; when I ran Keep on the Shadowfell, the Rogue used her +12 bonus to the fullest extent possible. (Of course, she exposed the skill's achilles' heel: you need to be very creative with it AND have a GM who's willing to be flexible. You might not be able to use it to substitute for athletics when you jump straight across a cliff, but what about hopping from stone pillar to pillar? A low-to-mid-level character trained in athletics can already do stuff that's borderline superhuman, don't be afraid to push the envelope a bit. (Mythbusters showed that it's just barely outside human limits to run on the surface of water briefly, maybe try that? The GM could set some arbitrarily high DC for that, but that's why you minmax. :smallsmile: )

[Inevitability]

Acrobatics CAN be a tremendously valuable skill; when I ran Keep on the Shadowfell, the Rogue used her +12 bonus to the fullest extent possible. (Of course, she exposed the skill's achilles' heel: you need to be very creative with it AND have a GM who's willing to be flexible. You might not be able to use it to substitute for athletics when you jump straight across a cliff, but what about hopping from stone pillar to pillar? A low-to-mid-level character trained in athletics can already do stuff that's borderline superhuman, don't be afraid to push the envelope a bit. (Mythbusters showed that it's just barely outside human limits to run on the surface of water briefly, maybe try that? The GM could set some arbitrarily high DC for that, but that's why you minmax. :smallsmile: )

Meh. If you want to minmax a skill, try intimidate. Or history, so you can destroy a wall by flabbergasting it with your historical knowledge. (Bracer's of mental might + Perfect Recall)

[p.d0t]

Stealth is a great skill in combat.