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Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-05, 10:40 AM
I've just recently been thinking about the Vitality Point (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedInjury.html#vitality-and-wound-points) system of measuring character health. While I have never participated in a game that used it, I do have a fair amount of theoretical/book knowledge of the system on which to base some opinions. It makes combat more lethal if there are a lot of critical hits, for example. Of course, the part I like most about it is that it makes it easier for a DM to describe a hit in a flavorful manner.

Now, I've been mulling over some campaign ideas and was wondering which of these campaigns, if any, would be a good match for using the Vitality Point system. To that end, I thought I would ask those of you that have direct experience with this variant system what you think of it. What does it add to a game? What does it take away? Do you think it's appropriate for any type of campaign, or just a certain style?

Let me know what you think.

daggaz
2007-02-05, 10:59 AM
It looks pretty cool to me. Still digesting the crit ideas tho... seems like it really adds to the random danger of crits (albeit in a different way than before).. I mean, at high levels, a melee type character with 100+ hitpoints can probably shrug off the first crit or two and keep going, but in this system, getting critted for just 1 vitality point (ie one damage, from say, a dagger or a really poorly placed greataxe) will result in character fatigue. Theres really no defense or mitigating factor, no matter how big and buff you are. That, and the stun thing seems like it could really hurt players over the long run.

Were-Sandwich
2007-02-05, 11:03 AM
I like it. It explains how high-level characters can take a greataxe to the face without dying: It never hit them. Unless it was WP damage, in which case it did.

Another thing, be careful of NPC classes. They go from being an easy fight to being zero challenge, as they gain no VPs. One hit and they're out.

I've always wanted to play in a VP/WP game. A swordsage twfing with dual scimitars. It would be evil with Tiger Claw crit-based stuff.

Deepblue706
2007-02-05, 11:16 AM
PROs: Gets rid of the abstract HP damage thing, and gives the players a better idea of what's actually happening. Also, I believe less people go through combat simply trying to take down the enemy as quickly as possible, and will sooner try to make more thoughtful decisions than "Should I Leap Attack or not Leap Attack?" since, gee, being wounded can actually make you less combat-effective.

CONs: PCs might complain a bit, depending on your crew (simply because they haven't developed a "feel" for it). Also, nobody will dump CON. I'm not sure if that counts. Basically I'm saying it's a good system. If anyone says you're just trying to find easier ways to kill off their characters, have them glimpse at Grim and Gritty.

Settings/Style: It seems to work in any kind of campaign, from what I've seen. I think your players are all you really need to take into account.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-05, 11:23 AM
Another thing, be careful of NPC classes. They go from being an easy fight to being zero challenge, as they gain no VPs. One hit and they're out.
Yeah, they don't mention it in the rules on adjusting challenge rating, but "NPC Class-level minus 1" becomes more inaccurate than ever when they have no VP.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-05, 11:27 AM
I've used this system, both the normal variant linked to and a variant variant, in which certain weapons still have critical multipliers. I have always given NPCs VP.

That said, I like the system for reasons previously mentioned.

Saph
2007-02-05, 11:28 AM
How does healing work with the VP system, though? You're healing them, but you're not actually healing them, because they're not really hurt.

- Saph

Khantalas
2007-02-05, 11:42 AM
You're restoring their stamina if they have only lost vitality points.

eelel_kielat
2007-02-05, 11:51 AM
i play the star wars rpg which uses this system exclusively and i do agree that it makes play that much more difficult because i have high vitality but low wounds and i nearly got killed by one crit so if u use it make sure that u adjust properly because it is a hard system to use

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-05, 11:53 AM
How does healing work with the VP system, though? You're healing them, but you're not actually healing them, because they're not really hurt.
While a lost vitality point can represent near misses, one also could represent a minor injury, such as a small scratch. In fact, since losing a vitality point would still allow injury poisons to be delivered, you have to assume that does happen with a certain amount of frequency.

So healing that restores vitality points, simply heals up all those minor scratches.

While we're on the subject of minor scratches... It appears that the RAW of vitality points allows cure minor wounds to heal a single wound point, as it is a non-variable amount of healing. While this maintains the spell's use of healing a disabled or dying to stabilize it, the spell really has an inappropriate name. A wound point is hardly "minor."

Thomas
2007-02-05, 11:58 AM
You're restoring their stamina if they have only lost vitality points.

Seems like something that healing magic would do anyway; they heal wounds and restore/refresh the target.

Golthur
2007-02-05, 12:51 PM
PROS: More verisimilitude; characters don't do dumb things like leap off of cliffs because they have enough HP to do it. It also makes players afraid of a mob of commoners with pitchforks, or the town guard, because all it takes is one lucky shot to take them down. Makes a clear distinction between lethal and nonlethal damage, and wounding reduces a character's efficiency.

CONS: Critical hits with lots of extra damage (like sneak attacks, high modifier power attacks, or weapons with lots of +Nd6) are eEEEeeevil. With enough dice, they take down anyone, regardless of level. This makes fortification, etc., much more valuable than they normally would be. As said, no one ever dumps CON. Your players might complain about how destructible they now are :wink:

As for worlds where it's suitable? IMHO, you probably don't want it if you're aiming for very high fantasy stuff. Mid- to low-fantasy, it's golden.

oriong
2007-02-05, 01:02 PM
While a lost vitality point can represent near misses, one also could represent a minor injury, such as a small scratch. In fact, since losing a vitality point would still allow injury poisons to be delivered, you have to assume that does happen with a certain amount of frequency.


Actually from what I know of the system (I've only played it in Star Wars mind you) you have to inflict Wound damage to deliver poison and so on.

From what I recall of star wars I think the primary weapons had a higher critical threat range (all 20's for the most part) those that had more tended to take heavy hits to damage and other factors (or were archaic weapons like longswords)

Piccamo
2007-02-05, 01:38 PM
I'm a bigger fan of the damage save than the vitality point system. They offer similar pros and cons, with a damage save leaving people more vulnerable to damage, but able to completely negate it as well.

Maelstrom
2007-02-05, 01:56 PM
CONS: ...Your players might complain about how destructible they now are :wink:

One of the things I took from reading the varient is that for PC's, it is incredibly difficult to actually *die* as written


Wound points cannot drop below 0; any damage that would cause a character’s wound point total to drop below 0 simply causes the character to have 0 wound points.

At 0 wound points, a character is disabled (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedInjury.html#disabled-and-wound-points) and must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If he succeeds on the save, he is merely disabled. If he fails, he falls unconscious (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/abilitiesAndConditions.html#unconscious) and begins dying (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedInjury.html#dying-and-wound-points).

...

Dying: A dying character is unconscious (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/abilitiesAndConditions.html#unconscious) and near death. Each round on his turn, a dying character must make a Fortitude save (DC 10, +1 per turn after the first) to become stable (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedInjury.html#stable-characters-and-recovery).If the character fails the save, he dies.
If the character succeeds on the save by less than 5, he does not die but does not improve. He is still dying and must continue to make Fortitude saves every round.
If the character succeeds on the save by 5 or more but by less than 10, he becomes stable (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedInjury.html#stable-characters-and-recovery) but remains unconscious (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/abilitiesAndConditions.html#unconscious).
If the character succeeds on the save by 10 or more, he becomes conscious and disabled (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedInjury.html#disabled-and-wound-points).
Another character can make a dying character stable (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedInjury.html#stable-characters-and-recovery) by succeeding on a DC 15 Heal check as a standard action (which provokes attacks of opportunity).



Even at low levels, these checks are *relatively* easy to make, but as the game progresses, they are incredibly easy (as written). So, not sure how "destructible" the PC's really are.



Also, how does this factor in Evasion/Improved evasion/etc? Seems almost to duplicate what those types of feats do (allowing the weilder of the feat to roll off/narrowly escape the damage)...just pondering (I *am* a huge fan of the system in d20 SW, but I think more work needs to be done to successfully implement it in D&D...anyone say 4.0?)

Duraska
2007-02-05, 02:16 PM
How well does this system work in d20 modern/future?

A level one strong hero with 12 constitution would have:

8 + 2 = 10 vitality points
and
12 wound points

If they're shot with an assult rifle, that's 2d6 damage... potentially meaning a single critical hit *could* kill them, although they would likely recieve an average of 6 damage from a critical, causing them to be fatigued and possibly dazed.

Actually... that sounds pretty realistic. The campaign would be harder to balance, but it makes more sense than a level 3 tough hero surviving six dead-on blasts from an M16.

(Grenades would really be potent though!)

daggaz
2007-02-05, 02:29 PM
I still dont like the inability of characters to mitigate a wound (any critical hit from any weapon that lands will fatigue and probably stun your character), nor do I like the lack of differentiation between characters when responding to said crits. A fighter with 20 con (say a dwarf who rolled an 18) should NOT be fatigued/stunned as much as say, an elf with 16 con (same 18 but minus 2) who took the same wound damage. There should definitely be a difference.The other problem with this, as others have pointed out, is that it really screws MAD characters, or folks who roll dice for stats and are unlucky enough to not get at least two high rolls. Iimagine being that elf wizard and having to put your 16 on con (for 14) and your next best stat is 12... for intelligence. This system pretty much makes con the prime attribute for all classes, which is highly imbalancing. Especially at low levels, when casters can't necessarily stay out of harms reach so easily.

Golthur
2007-02-05, 03:13 PM
One of the things I took from reading the varient is that for PC's, it is incredibly difficult to actually *die* as written

Even at low levels, these checks are *relatively* easy to make, but as the game progresses, they are incredibly easy (as written). So, not sure how "destructible" the PC's really are.

That's true. I use a variant which is a bit more lethal, so I'm less familiar with the official death and dying part.


Also, how does this factor in Evasion/Improved evasion/etc? Seems almost to duplicate what those types of feats do (allowing the weilder of the feat to roll off/narrowly escape the damage)...just pondering (I *am* a huge fan of the system in d20 SW, but I think more work needs to be done to successfully implement it in D&D...anyone say 4.0?)

Yes, I usually conceptualize vitality as a combination between short-term fatigue (like sprinter-style fatigue, not marathon-runner-style) and non-lethal damage (so bruises, cuts, scrapes, and so on).

Evasion and Improved Evasion, as written, basically suggest that you can get out of the way fast enough so as to not even be mildly singed by the fireball.

elliott20
2007-02-05, 03:24 PM
I think one way to handle it is to allow people to actually increase their WP, albeit at a decreased rate compared to the VP. so for example, you get an additional WP for every point of BAB you have, or when you level up, you can opt out of increasing your VP and increase your WP at a rate of 2:1. So basically, say you level up as a fighter, you roll an 8 on your HP gain. You can just add the 8 straight to your VP and be done with it, or convert it to WP and get 4 WP instead.

Also, feats that allows you to negate against critical hits would be immensely useful as well as the ability to better defend yourself.

InaVegt
2007-02-05, 03:25 PM
I have an idea for a house rule for this, making precision damage actually precision damage.

Every die of precision damage is instead replaced by one point of wound damage subtracted from vitality damage, when there is no vitality damage left on the attack the remainder of the wound damage is added for one point of damage per two dice the attack originally would have.

Gezina van den Vechte, Fallen celestial, Champion of Hell

oriong
2007-02-05, 03:30 PM
How well does this system work in d20 modern/future?

A level one strong hero with 12 constitution would have:

8 + 2 = 10 vitality points
and
12 wound points

If they're shot with an assult rifle, that's 2d6 damage... potentially meaning a single critical hit *could* kill them, although they would likely recieve an average of 6 damage from a critical, causing them to be fatigued and possibly dazed.



Actually a single hit from that assualt rifle could kill them using the normal system, because if it goes over their Massive Damage Threshold they have to save to avoid death.

InaVegt
2007-02-05, 03:36 PM
Actually a single hit from that assualt rifle could kill them using the normal system, because if it goes over their Massive Damage Threshold they have to save to avoid death.

Not to mention that assault rifle would have a chance of 25% of knocking that character into a dying condition in the traditional D20 modern system, while a hit of same power would just make the character fatigued (these chances are not taking account of critical hits, since I don't know the criticals of the assault rifle)

Gezina van den Vechte, Fallen celestial, Champion of Hell

Black Hand
2007-02-05, 03:41 PM
Although I haven't played the star wars system (yet, I do have the book) I have thought about the use of the VP/WP thing.

Essentially I've been thinking of trying it, but all weapons pretty much have a threat range of a natural 20, keen and improved crit and such could take it to 19-20

I'm not quite up to the task at changing the magic system to reflect the use through it (like jedi Powers) but I have thought much about the crit thing and wondered how it would work. Has anyone tried that variation??

Golthur
2007-02-05, 03:44 PM
I have an idea for a house rule for this, making precision damage actually precision damage.

Every die of precision damage is instead replaced by one point of wound damage subtracted from vitality damage, when there is no vitality damage left on the attack the remainder of the wound damage is added for one point of damage per two dice the attack originally would have.

Gezina van den Vechte, Fallen celestial, Champion of Hell

I'm not sure I understand this. Do you mean instead of:
weapon + 5d6 sneak attack, you do:
weapon - 5 vitality + 5 wounds?

And if, no vitality left, you do:
weapon + 2.5 wounds (round down to 2)?

Indon
2007-02-05, 03:48 PM
Personally, I like the hit point system. It distinguishes PC's from commoners and NPC's without PC classes, allows for flavorful (if unrealistic) combat descriptions, and it simply works better with monsters; imagine a dragon with vitality points.

I dislike the static damage threshold, however, of 50 points. I'm contemplating tweaking it, probably to be CONx5.

Matthew
2007-02-05, 03:57 PM
I'm fine with Hit Points, but I like this Vitality / Wound Point system as well; it would probably just be a matter of getting used to how it operates. In my House Ruled Game, Characters aren't considered wounded until they reach 0 Hit Points. Every -1 below that requires ten days to heal from or the equivalent level Curative Spell and imposes a -X Circumstance Penalty on all actions until healed.

InaVegt
2007-02-05, 04:02 PM
I'm not sure I understand this. Do you mean instead of:
weapon + 5d6 sneak attack, you do:
weapon - 5 vitality + 5 wounds?

And if, no vitality left, you do:
weapon + 2.5 wounds (round down to 2)?

No, a 1d4 weapon with 5 points of sneak attack would deal damage depending on the roll of the dice, on a two it would deal 2-2=0 vitality and 2+3/2=3.5 (round down to 3) wound damage, but on a 3 it would be 3-3=0 vitality and 3+2/2=4 wound damage. A crit would deal full damage (weapon + precision points) on no vitality left I'd deal with it as though it was a crit.

elliott20
2007-02-05, 04:06 PM
yeah, the problem with the VP/WP system stems from

1. magic
2. monsters
3. precision damage

magic is probably by far the worst. Because in this case, a single magic missile is actually far more deadlier than it originally was. Unless, of course, you assume that all damage done via spells are all automatically VP damage regardless and that only magic capable of doing critical hits is capable of inflicting WP damage. (As little sense as that would make...) But in essence, since a lot of spells are basically just auto-damage dealers, it actually makes it a lot more powerful.

monsters thing is also far more difficult since you'd have to recalculate how much WP/VP monsters would have. I suggest a formula based on size, CON and number of HD. Whatever remains of their HP becomes VP instead.

something like WP = HD size + # of HD x (size modifier) + CON modifier. maybe.

sneak attack, well, that's not my forte.

Draz74
2007-02-05, 05:36 PM
Yeah, if anything, this makes damage-dealing magic suck more, because it only damages VP (until they run out, or unless they can roll a crit). There's nothing in the rules at all to imply that Magic Missile or Fireball skips VP and damages WP. (That would be crazy broken!)

Anyone who can figure out a good way to handle precision damage in VP/WP, though, will be very appreciated by me. And if they can improve the Fast Healing, Regeneration, and Dying rules too, that's even better.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-05, 05:37 PM
I'm trying to remember my SW d20...don't lightsabers go straight to wounds, or something?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-05, 06:08 PM
Even at low levels, these checks are *relatively* easy to make, but as the game progresses, they are incredibly easy (as written). So, not sure how "destructible" the PC's really are.
For extra fun, factor in Steadfast Determination (PHB2). No auto-failing Fort Saves For the Win!


Anyone who can figure out a good way to handle precision damage in VP/WP, though, will be very appreciated by me. And if they can improve the Fast Healing, Regeneration, and Dying rules too, that's even better.
It's not in the base rules outlined in Unearthed Arcana, but I remember a general recommendation of 1 wound point per extra die of damage when scoring a critical. That also goes for flaming-type weapon enhancements. I think it might have been in "Sage Advice"...

Draz74
2007-02-05, 07:35 PM
It's not in the base rules outlined in Unearthed Arcana, but I remember a general recommendation of 1 wound point per extra die of damage when scoring a critical. That also goes for flaming-type weapon enhancements. I think it might have been in "Sage Advice"...

Actually, it is in UA (or at least in the SRD):

Creatures capable of dealing a large amount of damage on a single hit become significantly more deadly in this system, since a lucky attack roll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll) can give a deadly blow to almost any character. For critical hits, consider reducing the additional damage from bonus damage dice (such as a flaming sword or a rogue’s sneak attack) to only 1 point per die. (Such attacks deal normal damage on noncritical hits.) That’s still pretty scary when fighting a high-level rogue, but not quite as terrifying as facing the possibility of an extra 5 or 10 dice of wound point damage with a successful sneak attack critical hit. You may find other places where damage needs adjustment in this system as well; don’t be afraid to tinker when needed to keep your game fun and exciting.

Unfortunately, that doesn't quite solve my issue with precision damage. If VP damage doesn't represent actually taking any pointy objects in your bodily organs, then why does a non-critical Sneak Attack do more VP damage than a non-critical non-Sneak Attack?

I kind of would like to make Sneak Attack automatically affect WP instead of VP -- bypass VP somehow. But that definitely wouldn't be balanced.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-05, 08:36 PM
Actually, it is in UA (or at least in the SRD):
:smallredface: Teach me to shoot of at the keyboard without double checking these things. (I did give the rules one last cursory scan before posting. Honest. :smallbiggrin:)


Unfortunately, that doesn't quite solve my issue with precision damage. If VP damage doesn't represent actually taking any pointy objects in your bodily organs, then why does a non-critical Sneak Attack do more VP damage than a non-critical non-Sneak Attack?
Because it came that much closer to "actually taking any pointy objects in your bodily organs" than the non-critical non-sneak attack.

In the standard system, HP represents a number of things:
Actual physical health
Stamina
Ability to turn aside more serious wounds
Luck
Any number of other miscellaneous and/or conditional factors
Vitality points simply separate item 1 (Actual physical health) from the others. You can justify vitality damage by any of the 4 remaining reasons. Personally, I'd rely more on the "Luck" just because Rogues tend to be flavored as relying on luck, and it fits that flavor when an attack by a Rogue eats up a greater amount of that person's daily allotment of Luck than any other factor.

Failing that, it could be described as "You caught some movement out of the corner of your eye. Your body went into overdrive as you barely dodged a blow from the Rogue's sword," (Stamina), or "The Rogue caught you off guard. The blow you take isn't anything a night's rest won't cure, but it's a much deeper gouge than you'd like."

In short, I'd describe it the same way I would a subpar damage roll on a standard HP-system sneak attack. A successful sneak attack doesn't actually have to hit a vital organ. It just has to come close enough to doing so to justify certain creature immunities.

oriong
2007-02-05, 08:37 PM
Well, in the end you have to ask that question about all attacks. If it's not really hitting you why does an Ogre's battleaxe do more damage than a halfling's dagger? Why does strength still apply a damage bonus. Do you really spend more 'vitality' dodging a bolt from a hand crossbow than that from a longbow?

It's still ultimately an abstract system, it just feels slightly more 'right' than normal hit points.

Golthur
2007-02-05, 09:14 PM
Actually, it is in UA (or at least in the SRD):


Unfortunately, that doesn't quite solve my issue with precision damage. If VP damage doesn't represent actually taking any pointy objects in your bodily organs, then why does a non-critical Sneak Attack do more VP damage than a non-critical non-Sneak Attack?

I kind of would like to make Sneak Attack automatically affect WP instead of VP -- bypass VP somehow. But that definitely wouldn't be balanced.

I tend to represent sneak attacks as being harder to turn into a grazing strike due to the precision of the blow; thus, it takes correspondingly more VP to avoid it.

Sneak attacks directly affecting WP would be somewhat balanced only if they didn't scale with level, since WP don't. It would be tricky to get right, though.

Draz74
2007-02-05, 10:28 PM
Well, in the end you have to ask that question about all attacks. If it's not really hitting you why does an Ogre's battleaxe do more damage than a halfling's dagger? Why does strength still apply a damage bonus. Do you really spend more 'vitality' dodging a bolt from a hand crossbow than that from a longbow?

It's still ultimately an abstract system, it just feels slightly more 'right' than normal hit points.

Good points. Also relevant in a game without VP/WP whenever the "Stand Still" feat is allowed.


I tend to represent sneak attacks as being harder to turn into a grazing strike due to the precision of the blow; thus, it takes correspondingly more VP to avoid it.

I guess I can see that. Especially since Skirmish has entered the picture, precision damage seems more about finding openings that are hard to block, rather than vital organs as such.

Planewalker
2007-02-05, 11:43 PM
Vitality/Wounds works best with a more high action/drama campaign as opposed to a dungeon crawl. That why it works well with the SWRPG. But I think it also works best with the Defense system as well. I guess it would fit in with (gritting my teeth) Eberron. Actually probably with the Savage Tide path too.

Orzel
2007-02-06, 09:59 AM
In my mind I always replaced the word "damage" with "danger". A character could only survive so many dangerous effect a day without dying. High level characters were more dangerous than lower level one. Weapon attacks form strong heros are more dangerous then those from weak warriors. Sneak attacks and crits were more dangerous than etc.

VPWP works well in a non dungeon crawl. A friend of mine expanded the system to allow luck points and scratch points. Fights took forever; nonfullspellcaster hybrids and rogues were near immortal; and clerics dropped like flies.

Matthew
2007-02-06, 01:24 PM
Yes indeed, or 'potential damage'. It makes very little sense that a Great Axe does more damage than a Short Sword anyway - you get cleanly hit by either in real life and you're likely dead.