Hope I'm not screwing over my player

[gr8artist]

One of my players wants to play a 1 armed character as a major flaw. in exchange, he adds dex to damage with finesse weapons. Weapon finesse is free for every character. Is he getting cheated?

[Irk]

Is he getting cheated?
What is everyone else playing?

[eggynack]

What is everyone else playing?
Also, what is he playing?

[JeminiZero]

My gut feel is yes.

Normally, you go Weapon Finesse and Dex focus for 2 weapon fighting (usually because you have some class feature that adds damage per hit like sneak attack). But if he has only one arm, then that is moot.

He would be better off focusing on strength and using a 2-handed weapon, which adds Str bonus to hit, and adds 1.5x Str bonus to damage.

There are other repercussions of having only one hand related to equipment. For example, does it mean he can only wear one magic ring? Will he be able to use magical gloves and bracers which normally require you to wear BOTH in order to have an effect?

[gr8artist]

He is playing an Elven Fighter, using an archetype that focuses on disarms and such. We have a few houserules that he's interested in, such as the Vital Strike line working in a full-round-attack or on a charge. We have a team of mostly warriors, including:
Dwarven Fighter, Viking archetype, planning to go into 3.5's Bear Warrior PrC.
Orc Druid, focusing on strength, still too early to tell what her strategies are, but likely won't be top-tier.
Elven Fighter, Tactician archetype, focused on skills, who's more merchant than melee.
Elven Fighter, Free hand archetype, focused on disarms and agility.
The Free-hander is normally written as using his off-hand to disarm and snatch things, and grant agility bonuses by grabbing the environment and such. We've waved these references for his lack of hand. I'm not going to penalize his magic item limits, so he can wear two rings on one hand, and only needs one bracer/glove/pauldron. He has some skill penalties, mostly to Str-skills like climb and swim, for obvious reasons.
He's also the most knowledgeable in the group, and is the only one trying to optimize. The Viking is just focusing on strength and con, not a lot of attention given to optimizing feats or action economy. The druid will likely be somewhat reserved or passive, and I'm not expecting a lot of spellcasting from her because we have some anti-magic houserules (global SR so every spell needs a CL check to pass). The tactician would have been a rogue, but every character she's played with us has been a rogue, so she's mixing it up a little. She's going to take skill feats and social feats, so low-op there.
The Free-Hander's got a dueling sword (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/sword-dueling), which is basically a finesse-able longsword (1d8, 19-20/x2). He traded cultural weapon proficiencies for EWP, and I think he has Weapon Focus as part of the trade for his arm.

So, all in all, he has Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, and Dex to damage with finesse weapons, all in exchange for his arm and cultural weapon proficiencies (polearms, and the Thoran half-spear (1d6/1d6, x3/x3 double weapon with reach on one end)).
He plans on taking the vital strike line, which has been updated to apply diminishing returns on successive iterative attacks. Houserule in place makes all iteratives after the first at -5. So at level 11 he'll attack at +11/+6/+6 for 4x/3x/2x damage. The others could use a similar strategy, but only one is focusing on melee damage enough to bother with the feats.
Of course, I realize that I'll have to be careful with appropriate CR encounters, since my group is low-op and we're not covering all the primary roles.

But, is weapon focus + dex to damage a fair trade for an arm?

[ericgrau]

He gains movement speed and some higher skill checks because with that much dex he can wear light armor. He loses either some AC or 0.5x(ability mod) damage. As a fighter and not a skillmonkey I do think he is losing more than he is getting. Part of that is his fault; maybe he should multiclass to ranger and pick up some stealthy and/or acrobatic skills. Even then I think he should get a little more though. Maybe a feat or two on top of the recommendation to multiclass. Probably two feats, but if you're really good about favoring skills and it's low optimization then maybe 1 feat. Or some special ability worth around that amount.

OTOH if it's a weak party who are also using abilities that don't go together very well then maybe he doesn't need as much.

[The Viscount]

Think about it this way. In 3.5, the shadow blade feat lets you add Dex to damage when in a shadow hand stance and using dagger, short sword, sai, siangham, unarmed strike, or spiked chain. What your player has is only somewhat expanded from this, so you can essentially ask is an arm worth one very good feat? I would say a cautious yes, but don't let your player off easy on having one arm. Players have a tendency to forget things like that, so be sure to keep it in mind when difficult situations arise and I think it should balance out.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

He can still TWF with a one-handed weapon and armor spikes. As long as you let him wear two rings on that one hand, and the rest of the party doesn't overshadow him, I'd say he should be fine.

It also leaves open the possibility of Half-Golem (MM2) or Grafts (FF, LoM, etc.) later on, which can put him at a significant advantage in some situations.

[Seerow]

It also leaves open the possibility of Half-Golem (MM2) or Grafts (FF, LoM, etc.) later on, which can put him at a significant advantage in some situations.

Really think this is a great way to go. At low level dex to hit and damage for free will balance it out. At high level, getting a mechanical arm replacement is awesome and lets the character continue to keep up.

[OldTrees1]

But, is weapon focus + dex to damage a fair trade for an arm?

Maybe at low level. However perhaps give him a scaling benefit. It starts as merely Dex to damage but at higher levels it gives additional benefits like an extra attack during Standard/Full Attacks.

However tie all of these extra benefits to the flaw. If he eventually decides to get an artificial arm, he loses the additional benefits and gains new benefits in line with the cost he paid to remove their one arm flaw.

[gr8artist]

Ok, the general consensus seems to be that it's ok at this level and level of play. He's going to be pretty good at remembering his downside; we gave him a 1-armed mini (we use lego men). He's already had a situation where he was at a severe disadvantage; the players had to descend into a cave to rescue some kids, and he couldn't manage the rope and fell.
Grafts might actually be an option later on. Any place where I can get an overview of the mechanics or rules for such things? I think that if he does get an arm, rather than taking away his existing perks, I'd simply lower the effectiveness of that arm, as he wouldn't be used to using it. His archetype requires fighting with only 1 weapon and leaving the other hand free, so he's not really losing anything by choosing not to dual-wield.
On an interesting side-note, he's based of Syrio Farrel from GoT, and as of the end of the first game he has more creature kills and avoided attacks than anyone else.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Graft Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12154.0)

A Long Arm fiendish graft from Fiend Folio is only 5k, and it can make a claw attack at +5 ft. reach, though it suffers the drawbacks of all fiendish grafts.

The Illithid Raking Tentacle is the same price as the Long Arm without the fiendish drawback, but it's a tentacle instead of an arm. The Rending Claw would be a decent substitute. Underdark also has the Grabbing Tentacle and Extracting Tentacle, though they're prohibitively expensive.

Those are probably going to be your top choices, but they're all worth looking at.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Nudge him towards other effects that also apply dex to damage (and other things), and let them stack. For instance, Shadow Blade (ToB) and Hit and Run Fighter (DotU) can make that dex count quite a bit. Not as much as a power attacking 2 hander, but still.

I also second the later grafts and 2WF-with-spikes ideas. He could get a Collar of Perpetual Attendance if you want to downplay practical/rp downsides.

Overall it's not balanced in his favor, but it's supposed to be an IG consequence of losing his friggin' arm. I think you're being sporting, or more specifically I think the character will work in spite of the disadvantage.

[Red Fel]

I'd like to point out a key comparison here. First, what does a person lose by losing an arm? Well, they lose the ability to TWF, in the typical sense; they lose the ability to add Str bonus to weapons by wielding them two-handed; they lose the ability to equip a second ring, or the second half of a pair of gloves. In theory they also lose some HP, under some rules adaptations, for missing a portion of their body.

Second, what are people proposing to offset the loss? Dex to attack to offset the loss of Str. Ability to equip two rings or benefit from the pair of gloves. In essence, some people are proposing offsets that basically obviate the mechanical losses of having one arm.

Are you familiar with the superhero Daredevil? He's a blind man with the superpower of being able to see. If this sounds incredibly lame to you, you're thinking clearly. If you give a character a handicap, and then offset it by directly removing the handicap, it's not a handicap at all, but an aesthetic change.

I agree there need to be offsets. But I think you should be very clear that these offsets will not "make up" for what he loses having only one arm; instead, they will be more like "adaptations," where he develops stronger in some areas as a result of being weaker in others.

I agree on giving him a Dex-focus, which makes sense for a person who has learned to fight with only one arm. I would also give him a few passive skill bonuses, such as to Balance (since, having one arm, he has been forced to become excellent to offset his natural lack of balance) and Intimidate (people missing limbs are scary). I would consider giving him a possible bonus to AC, to acknowledge the fact that there is an arm missing so you can't hit it. But I would also impose additional penalties, such as Disguise, UMD, Disable Device, or anything that requires using two hands. Frankly, missing an arm is going to be more of a hindrance than a benefit, even when a person has learned to adapt to it.

And with good reason - it can be fixed. I don't know PF spells, but in 3.5, Regenerate gets you that arm back, no components required. And as others have mentioned, there are grafts that can make a puny human arm look ridiculous by comparison. There are also a few pieces of equipment in Savage Species that can help, if you don't mind 3.0 material.

I agree that giving your player some small benefits, minor ones, is appropriate; I disagree with major ones or ones which offset the penalties of having only one arm. I also think that if a player wants to play a character with a major handicap, he should be willing to accept the consequences of that handicap, rather than promptly requesting offsets which render it moot.

[NoACWarrior]

One of my players wants to play a 1 armed character as a major flaw. in exchange, he adds dex to damage with finesse weapons. Weapon finesse is free for every character. Is he getting cheated?

Weapon finesse only grants the dex on attack rolls. You give him dex on damage rolls as well. The exchange you did has synergy with the bonus feat.

The issue that alot of people will say is that he is greatly gimped for not having a second arm:
Can't use bows, can only use a few other ranged weapons, most range weapon iteratives (non thrown) cannot be utilized.
Can't do TWF, can't use a two handed weapon (might houserule to give penalties to attack).
Can't weild a shield (bucklers can still be used but why have one if you are going to attack) and a weapon or cast a spell at the same time.
Lose some grapple proficiency.
Can't cast spells like in Harry Potter (using a wand takes a hand, where you also need a hand free to cast a spell not deriving from the wand).
Lose some climb proficiency.

[The Random NPC]

Think about it this way. In 3.5, the shadow blade feat lets you add Dex to damage when in a shadow hand stance and using dagger, short sword, sai, siangham, unarmed strike, or spiked chain. What your player has is only somewhat expanded from this, so you can essentially ask is an arm worth one very good feat? I would say a cautious yes, but don't let your player off easy on having one arm. Players have a tendency to forget things like that, so be sure to keep it in mind when difficult situations arise and I think it should balance out.

It's a bit worse than that. Based on the OP's reference to Vital Strike, Pathfinder material is on the table, which has a +1 weapon enchant that adds Dex to damage. The question now becomes is an arm worth 8000 gp (or more). I say no, especially since Regenerate only costs 910 gp.


Are you familiar with the superhero Daredevil? He's a blind man with the superpower of being able to see. If this sounds incredibly lame to you, you're thinking clearly. If you give a character a handicap, and then offset it by directly removing the handicap, it's not a handicap at all, but an aesthetic change.

First, that isn't all of his powers, at the very least he gained 360° vision and limited x-ray vision. Second, being just an aesthetic change isn't a bad thing.

[danzibr]

Thirding the grafts. It didn't occur to me when I started reading, but in a real D&D setting, if you lost an arm, it seems you'd want to try to get a new one (via Regenration or a graft).