Pathfinder Are Summoners broken? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

HylianKnight

2014-04-05, 11:49 PM

Sort of...

Here's the problem, it depends on what you mean when you say broken. OP in the sense of just becoming the most powerful person ever on something degenerate along the lines of any broken 3.5 splatbook combo. Not really.

The problem is that the class itself has a bad rep from messing in an area that, in all likelihood, shouldn't be messed with. Namely, the action economy.

They made a class where you don't have one character, you have two. One to be a melee beast in combat, and one that can run around and use skills and cast spells. Let's say your in a game with 4 other people, one of whom is the DM. The party is thus made up of 4 characters in combat, and you're half of them!

Then you factor in things like the fact that by mid-level the Summoner himself is a decent Tier-3 caster, and any optimized Eidolon can be just as good, if not better, than a dedicated melee character, and you have a class that rubs most people the wrong way most of the time.

Axinian

2014-04-06, 12:01 AM

My understanding is that synthesist is actually worse than a standard summoner, because you're cutting your actions without significant gain. You're better at melee than melee folk, but that's not that hard to accomplish.

Not to mention it is hands down the worst written piece of Pathfinder text I've ever seen. The text doesn't leave you with any clear idea what the archetype does mechanically.

Sort of...

Here's the problem, it depends on what you mean when you say broken. OP in the sense of just becoming the most powerful person ever on something degenerate along the lines of any broken 3.5 splatbook combo. Not really.

The problem is that the class itself has a bad rep from messing in an area that, in all likelihood, shouldn't be messed with. Namely, the action economy.

They made a class where you don't have one character, you have two. One to be a melee beast in combat, and one that can run around and use skills and cast spells. Let's say your in a game with 4 other people, one of whom is the DM. The party is thus made up of 4 characters in combat, and you're half of them!

Then you factor in things like the fact that by mid-level the Summoner himself is a decent Tier-3 caster, and any optimized Eidolon can be just as good, if not better, than a dedicated melee character, and you have a class that rubs most people the wrong way most of the time.

I would say it is broken because of this. OK maybe not broken, but it has a really high floor of power. Really high. Just being able to control two capable characters is really good. Not unmanageably so, mind, but you kind of have to tailor a party around having a summoner in it.

Raven777

2014-04-06, 12:59 AM

But couldn't anybody just take Leadership or Bind a couple outsiders and pull off the same stunts?

eggynack

2014-04-06, 01:03 AM

But couldn't anybody just take Leadership or Bind a couple outsiders and pull off the same stunts?
The former is a very broken feat, and the latter generally requires that you be a high level member of one of the strongest classes in the game. In other words, if this is the standard we're holding the summoner to, then it's incredibly powerful. And it is pretty damn powerful, though not at the upper echelons of existence.

Dante Leos

2014-04-06, 01:11 AM

Agree with above, another broken faucet with leadership I believe is theoretically your cohort can have it too. The only times it is somewhat acceptable is when your cohort is a low powered class and very few party members have it.

grarrrg

2014-04-06, 02:09 AM

But couldn't anybody just take Leadership or Bind a couple outsiders and pull off the same stunts?

And what stops Mr. Summoner from taking Leadership as well, and effectively playing THREE people?

Slipperychicken

2014-04-06, 03:01 AM

Master Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/master-summoner) can solo pathfinder: just pump your Charisma as high as it'll go, Augment Summoning (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/augment-summoning---final), Superior Summoning (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/superior-summoning). When you have SM1, summon eagles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/eagle/summoned-creature-eagle), SM2 -> earth elementals (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-earth/small-earth-elemental), and SM3 -> either cheetahs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/cat-great/cheetah/summoned-creature-cheetah) or 1d4+1 earth elementals. Take max ranks in Linguistics so you can speak all your summons' languages and give them specific orders.

But yeah, a master summoner basically conjures an army of beatsticks (who are already buffed with +4 to strength and con) and then buffs them even more. Once you have 10-11 ish uses of Summon Monster per day, then you can just spam summons almost every round. That action economy and strength will ruin encounters and make the party fighter feel useless. Also, those summons are 100% disposable and don't need healing or a share of the treasure, unlike your party fighter, who will want to be healed after every encounter, whine OOC if his character dies, and demand a share of the loot.

Summoners get a small spell list, but it's an awesome list which contains most of the best buffs, CC, and utility spells which a spontaneous caster would actually want as spells known. Their 6 spell levels is deceptive, because they get a lot of spells early, like plane shift and gate, even getting some spells earlier than wizards do (Haste is a good example). Their smaller number of spells is offset by the fact they can always spam summon monster (one of the most versatile spells in the game), 6-11x per day, as a standard action, and they last 1 minute/level.

If you know a fight is coming and want to completely annihilate it, use 2-3 summon monster uses before you enter the room (the duration means that summoning them before the fight is trivially easy) to put out a total of ~7 augmented summons, buff them with Haste, grab some popcorn, and watch the smackdown.

Summoners can fill most of the party roles if they're careful: Face? Huge charisma and social skills. Beatstick? Summons and eidolon. Healer? Make wands of Infernal Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/infernal-healing). Buffer? Your spell list. Utility? Summons, eidolon, and spells. Traps giving you trouble? Make a summon run through the hallway to trigger all the traps.

And what stops Mr. Summoner from taking Leadership as well, and effectively playing THREE people?

Common decency, and a fear of thrown books.

Keneth

2014-04-06, 08:03 AM

Summoner is broken, yes. They crammed 9 levels of spells into a 6 level spellcasting class, gave him a fighter with superpowers as a class ability, as well as the ability to summon ridiculous amounts of creatures. Master summoner makes the whole thing even worse, as already described above by Slipperychicken.

Is it the most broken class in the game? No. But it's a far cry from being balanced.

Gnaeus

2014-04-06, 08:04 AM

I agree with most of the above.

Summoners seem powerful to (mostly low system mastery) folks at the Paizo forums because of their high optimization floor. It is pretty hard to find a situation where they are not very good without specifically nerfing the summoner (like by putting large parts of the campaign in places where summons don't work, and even then they don't suck). The same players incorrectly think that Synthesist is even more broken, because now you are a beatstick who can spellcast, but as mentioned earlier in the thread, in 95+% of situations it is better to be a spellcaster with a powerful pet than a single character who can do both.

As far as minionmancy, they are good, but hardly the unquestioned leader. They cannot create and control long term minions like a cleric or wizard can with animate dead. They get the planar binding line slower than a wizard does (about the same rate as a sorcerer). They can dominate monsters at very high level, but lack dominate person. And yes, they do get spells earlier on their 6 level list, but they get less spells known and way less spells/day than a sorcerer (and sorcerers that use their favored class bonuses for extra spells known are even better by comparison).

Are they overpowered compared with Monk or fighter? Yes. Are they overpowered compared with Tier 1/2 casters who know what they are doing? Not at all.

grarrrg

2014-04-06, 11:33 AM

Are they overpowered compared with Monk or fighter? Yes. Are they overpowered compared with Tier 1/2 casters who know what they are doing? Not at all.

Mostly this.
With the addendum that at low levels, they make EVERYONE look bad, as it takes a few levels for their limited casting to fall behind the Tier 1's/2's.

And what stops Mr. Summoner from taking Leadership as well, and effectively playing THREE people?
Common decency, and a fear of thrown books.

I was responding directly to a post suggesting that a different class with Leadership could be just as bad.
My response being, if Leadership is allowed, then a Summoner could take it and be all that much worse.

Summoner is broken, yes. They crammed 9 levels of spells into a 6 level spellcasting class

Really only 8 levels worth of spells.
They only get _three_ 9th level spells.
Dominate Monster
Teleportation Circle
and Gate (by way of Summon Monster ability, they don't get it as an actual spell).
Are they overpowered compared with Monk or fighter? Yes. Are they overpowered compared with Tier 1/2 casters who know what they are doing? Not at all.

Keneth

2014-04-06, 11:40 AM

They only get _three_ 9th level spells.

And that invalidates my statement how exactly? The simple fact is, such a design choice should never have happened.

Raven777

2014-04-06, 12:33 PM

Also they have 3/4 BAB... because reasons?

squiggit

2014-04-06, 12:37 PM

And that invalidates my statement how exactly? The simple fact is, such a design choice should never have happened.

Why is that?

eggynack

2014-04-06, 12:41 PM

I think that a question that needs to be asked, and one that I think has yet to be asked, is what does broken mean? It's a really unclear thing, without a formal definition, so two people could easily make claims on either side of the spectrum and both be correct, based on naught but differing definitions. The way I see it, there are two definitions. The first is that the class just doesn't work right, and I don't think the class fits into that category. The second is that the class is overpowered. To that second category, I ask, compared to what? We have some knowledge of how powerful the summoner is, so if you ask, "Is the summoner better than this?" then we can probably answer. As is, it's a rather meaningless question.

Snowbluff

2014-04-06, 12:56 PM

Yes.

Gate is an SLA for them.

They have Simulacrum.

Summons start as Standard Action and last ten times as long as other summons.

They're Sorcerer levels of broken. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Isn't 3 ninth level spells about how many Sorcerers get?

Easily make magic items at half cost. (Wand of Blood Money for Simulacrum, anyone?)

Charisma casting focus easily lets them UMD wands from other classes.

Slipperychicken

2014-04-06, 01:05 PM

Also they have 3/4 BAB... because reasons?

Someone probably thought summoners would be going into melee alongside their eidolons.

Also, they probably applied the same logic as with Bards: If it doesn't have true fullcasting, it doesn't have half BAB.

Just to Browse

2014-04-06, 01:51 PM

The one D&D 3.x class that summons well is the binder who spams that one web enhancement. The power afforded by the easy summoning he gets is enough to knock him up from T3 to T2.

So a dude that summons better (earlier, more effectively, more easily) than the binder is definitely T2. Long-duration summons, an animal companion equivalent, and great spell utility make the summoner top-notch. And unlike T2 casters like the sorcerer/spirit shaman/favored soul, the summoner can play with the wizard, druid, cleric, and not feel like an inferior copy of any of them.

The real reason people cry about the summoner being broken is the same reason people think ToB is broken. The optimization floor is just very low, so weapon focus fighters and fireball wizards just look bad in comparison.

eggynack

2014-04-06, 02:05 PM

The one D&D 3.x class that summons well is the binder who spams that one web enhancement. The power afforded by the easy summoning he gets is enough to knock him up from T3 to T2.

So a dude that summons better (earlier, more effectively, more easily) than the binder is definitely T2. Long-duration summons, an animal companion equivalent, and great spell utility make the summoner top-notch. And unlike T2 casters like the sorcerer/spirit shaman/favored soul, the summoner can play with the wizard, druid, cleric, and not feel like an inferior copy of any of them.
Are you sure the summoner summons better than the binder? They're from different systems, and I'm pretty sure that a binder's summons afford the binder a greater versatility of effects than the summoner's do.

Spore

2014-04-06, 02:08 PM

Are you sure the summoner summons better than the binder? They're from different systems, and I'm pretty sure that a binder's summons afford the binder a greater versatility of effects than the summoner's do.

Everything base line is more powerful in Pathfinder. So Summoner is still T3 but borderline T2 (they can't do everything but what their summons can add to their versatility is breath taking).

The core problem is that people see the evolutions, spells and the summons and automatically think ONE summoner can do EVERYTHING AT ONCE. This is untrue. Their spells are spontaneous with limited number and castings/day. Their summoning SLA and eidolons block each other. And the eidolon itself can do one or two things at best. Being a melee brute? Skill eidolon out of the question. Being a flying charger? Damage will suffer. Being a skilldolon? Almost no damage in fights.

Snowbluff

2014-04-06, 02:33 PM

The core problem is that people see the evolutions, spells and the summons and automatically think ONE summoner can do EVERYTHING AT ONCE. This is untrue. Their spells are spontaneous with limited number and castings/day. Their summoning SLA and eidolons block each other.

Not if you're a master summoner. I've found summons to be better than eidolons in most cases, since I can customize what creatures I bring out fight by fight. 1/2 level eidolon is still good for scouting.

Lord Vukodlak

2014-04-06, 03:47 PM

But couldn't anybody just take Leadership or Bind a couple outsiders and pull off the same stunts?

A summoner could take leadership and bind a couple outsiders on top of what he already has.

grarrrg

2014-04-06, 03:51 PM

And that invalidates my statement how exactly? The simple fact is, such a design choice should never have happened.

It doesn't invalidate your statement, I'm just clarifying.
They really don't get 9 levels of spells. Gate is part of an SLA, so there is no option there, and neither of the two 9th levels they have the option of choosing are all that powerful. As for 'spell discounts', they get their 9th's only one level earlier than a Wizard would get them (2 levels earlier than Sorc). And their Gate is actually one level later than Sorc would have it, and they still have to pay the material costs for Gate, so it isn't any cheaper.

And the "discount spells" isn't a problem in and of itself, there are a couple spells that you get 3 or so levels earlier than other classes, but these are mostly weak/flavorful type spells.
The 'good' spells usually are only 1 level earlier than the normal caster would get them.

No, the real problem with 'discount spells' is when you start adding them to other classes by way of Samsaran or Pathfinder Savant and the like.
A Summoner with Dominate Monster at level 16 isn't too out of line.
A Wizard with Dominate Monster at level 11 is a bit more of a problem.

The core problem is that people see the evolutions, spells and the summons and automatically think ONE summoner can do EVERYTHING AT ONCE.Not if you're a master summoner. I've found summons to be better than eidolons in most cases, since I can customize what creatures I bring out fight by fight. 1/2 level eidolon is still good for scouting.

But then you are still not doing everything at once. True, at low levels, your Eidolon will still be a massive beatstick and you can use your Summon SLA at the same time, but at mid/high levels you probably won't want to summon your Eidolon in a fight.

Lord Vukodlak

2014-04-06, 03:55 PM

Everything base line is more powerful in Pathfinder. So Summoner is still T3 but borderline T2 (they can't do everything but what their summons can add to their versatility is breath taking).

The core problem is that people see the evolutions, spells and the summons and automatically think ONE summoner can do EVERYTHING AT ONCE. This is untrue. Their spells are spontaneous with limited number and castings/day. Their summoning SLA and eidolons block each other. And the eidolon itself can do one or two things at best. Being a melee brute? Skill eidolon out of the question. Being a flying charger? Damage will suffer. Being a skilldolon? Almost no damage in fights.

The Eidolon can do two things well, true, but then the summoner has his own abilities and access to summon monster which I think makes it a lower T2 easily

Baroncognito

2014-04-06, 04:09 PM

EDIT: Isn't 3 ninth level spells about how many Sorcerers get?

If you want to be pedantic, summoners have access to four spells that are 9th level Wizard/Sorcerer spells: Dominate Monster and Teleportation Circle are available as 6th level summoner spells, Summon Monster IX and Gate are available from the ability Summon Monster (and as such, cannot be used when the Eidolon is active).

A Sorcerer, at 20th level, gets three 9th level spells, but has a much larger assortment of ninth level spells to choose from.

Anlashok

2014-04-06, 04:09 PM

Beowulf DW

2014-04-06, 04:14 PM

Personally, I think that Summoner is a T2 at best, which is surprising since it only gets level 6 spells at most. It's saving grace is undoubtedly its spell-like abilities. It basically has one really good trick that also happens to be a really versatile trick. However, I'm sure that most Druids can do just as many things as the Summoner, and then some.

The Summoner's main strength is an advantage in the Action Economy. With all the good buffs, Light Armor Proficiency, and 3/4 BAB all you need is weapon proficiencies from your racial abilities and two decent physical abilities (str/dex and con), and suddenly you have two melee combatants sharing buffs and working as a team. And that's just one way build a Summoner. It's not even the best way to do it either. The best way is probably to focus on your summons in combat and use the Eidolon for utility, while the Summoner stays toward the back and helps guard the squishier members of the party.

A note on the Synthesist: it's not actually as powerful as the base Summoner. First, it gives up the action economy advantage. Secondly, and this is really the most important part, you can't simply ignore you physical ability scores. At least not if you want to be a decent combatant. The Synthesist's Eidolon doesn't get access to feats and skills, meaning that you have to qualify for feats like Power Attack on your own. Admittedly, this isn't hard to do, with point buy, but it's not as bad as some people seem to think. Admittedly, Synthesists are still likely better fighters than actual fighters, but who isn't in this system?

Bottom line is: Summoners are powerful and can break a game, but not like a decent Cleric, Druid, Wizard or Witch.

Coidzor

2014-04-06, 04:19 PM

And what stops Mr. Summoner from taking Leadership as well, and effectively playing THREE people?

The GM, of course. :smalltongue:

From what I know base summoners are not all that powerful, they get a cool little eidolon to hide behind, but they themselves are quite squishy. Now when we talk Synthesist.. ohhh boy, that is just territory you don't want to enter, as you are now a super powerful creature, with ability to cast spells and just can make insane combos. One I've seen is combining a Synthesist with pounce with a Cavalier with mounted skirmisher on his back and things tend to just explode on impact.

If you want to be better at being a clobber monster than 3.5 Druid with Wildshape(but no Animal Companion and with worse casting), you go Synthesist Summoner. If you want to be able to use that beatstickery and cast at the same time without trade-offs, you forego Synthesist.

Are they overpowered compared with Monk or fighter? Yes.

Well, I'm not quite sure overpowered is quite the right term for describing a situation where a class is better than ones that are basically garbage anyway. They definitely outshine them and it's difficult to disguise the fact that they outshine such classes, since, for example, clerics and wizards can much more easily go into support roles that make their contributions through their less competent allies harder to discern.

Talya

2014-04-06, 04:41 PM

A Sorcerer, at 20th level, gets three 9th level spells, but has a much larger assortment of ninth level spells to choose from.

Four, actually. We're discussing Pathfinder, and you're forgetting bloodline spells.

There are easy ways for them to get far more than four, too.

Snowbluff

2014-04-06, 05:28 PM

If you want to be pedantic, summoners have access to four spells that are 9th level Wizard/Sorcerer spells: Dominate Monster and Teleportation Circle are available as 6th level summoner spells, Summon Monster IX and Gate are available from the ability Summon Monster (and as such, cannot be used when the Eidolon is active).

A Sorcerer, at 20th level, gets three 9th level spells, but has a much larger assortment of ninth level spells to choose from.
Well, you could do worse than those 4. :smalltongue:

Interesting. A lot of the sentiments are the same over on the other forums, but with them concluding the class is a guaranteed T0 unless you're a broodmaster and here we're looking at High-3 to Mid-2.

The eidolon has nothing to do with the power level of the Summoner. If you can still Gate and cast Simulacrum, you're pretty much on the top tier of power.

Slipperychicken

2014-04-06, 05:46 PM

Interesting. A lot of the sentiments are the same over on the other forums, but with them concluding the class is a guaranteed T0 unless you're a broodmaster and here we're looking at High-3 to Mid-2.

I didn't say Tier 0. Even master summoner is on the strong side of T3 or low T2. That is to say it does a number of roles very well, but doesn't truly break the game unless it really tries, and even then only has a few game-breaking tricks.

Talya

2014-04-06, 06:19 PM

Well, you could do worse than those 4. :smalltongue:

The eidolon has nothing to do with the power level of the Summoner. If you can still Gate and cast Simulacrum, you're pretty much on the top tier of power.

The tier system doesn't even factor in high level shenanigans. It considers levels 6-15. (3.5's healer gets Gate, remember.)

Arbane

2014-04-06, 06:40 PM

Personally, I think that Summoner is a T2 at best, which is surprising since it only gets level 6 spells at most.

Yes, but those level 6 spells would be level 8 or 9 for anyone else.

That's another part of the game Summoners break - caster-level-specific magic-item making costs.

Beowulf DW

2014-04-06, 07:46 PM

Yes, but those level 6 spells would be level 8 or 9 for anyone else.

That's another part of the game Summoners break - caster-level-specific magic-item making costs.

The only other part that I know that they break is the action economy, so if those are really the only two parts of the game the Summoner breaks, I'd say it isn't all that bad. Especially compared to the T1s.

ninjamaster1991

2014-04-06, 07:57 PM

A note on the Synthesist: it's not actually as powerful as the base Summoner. First, it gives up the action economy advantage. Secondly, and this is really the most important part, you can't simply ignore you physical ability scores. At least not if you want to be a decent combatant. The Synthesist's Eidolon doesn't get access to feats and skills, meaning that you have to qualify for feats like Power Attack on your own. Admittedly, this isn't hard to do, with point buy, but it's not as bad as some people seem to think. Admittedly, Synthesists are still likely better fighters than actual fighters, but who isn't in this system?

A note on the note on the Synthesist: I personally believe that Synthesists are just as powerful as a normal Summoner. Part of the reason for that is, by RAW, you can use your Eidolon's physical ability scores to qualify for feats, PrC's, etc. You can do that due to the rule that you can qualify for that stuff if you have magical buffs on for 24 hours at a time. The Eidolon doesn't have a duration besides 'when you next fall unconscious', so by pulling an all-nighter with your suit on, you can qualify for Power Attack and that stuff.

Furthermore, the Synthesist trades action economy for not having its main weakness of the Summoner himself. A normal Summoner/Eidolon combo could be taken out with a sneak attack, or by people targeting the squishier one due to the matching glowing runes on their foreheads, especially if there's a caster on the other side. The Synthesist, even if they know how his class works, has no weaknesses that a normal Summoner doesn't have too. Dismissal? He always has a good Will save, and probably has a better WIS than either of the two. The normal Summoner's Eidolon might have a weak Will due to the Quadruped form, so it's at best equal. A night ambush? If a Synth casts Summon Eidolon, his HP went up significantly, and the ambushers are now surrounding a meat grinder (who can Maker's Jump away). The normal Summoner would have a meat grinder, too, but he wouldn't have as much HP, and if he goes down on the assassins'/bandits'/whatevers' turn, the meat grinder disappears.

Just to Browse

2014-04-06, 08:03 PM

The only other part that I know that they break is the action economy, so if those are really the only two parts of the game the Summoner breaks, I'd say it isn't all that bad. Especially compared to the T1s.

Those are two of the biggest things at T1... I mean, the 3.5 artificer gets his place because of the first one.

And please please please remember that tiers are not about breaking the game. They are about how well you can contribute to a variety of encounters. The number of encounters summoners can contribute to is "all of them", and their ability to contribute is "a lot". That makes them T2 easily.

Snowbluff

2014-04-06, 09:42 PM

The tier system doesn't even factor in high level shenanigans. It considers levels 6-15. (3.5's healer gets Gate, remember.)

Simulacrum they get at the same level at Wizards, which is within that range.

They pretty much have T2 for the same reasons as summoning binders.

Keneth

2014-04-06, 10:12 PM

Why is that?

Because it has implications beyond the summoner class. If you want a summoner to get haste as a 2nd level spell, that's fine, but that's also going to affect the cost of magic items, allow other classes to get it as a 2nd level spell via shenanigans, and so forth. What could possibly be a good reason to ever make such a poor design choice? I know that Paizo designers aren't the most competent bunch, but I know for a fact that they are well aware of the strength of summoned creatures and permanent companions. What line of reasoning led to "You know what, we should add a bunch of spells from higher levels to its spell list and just reduce their spell levels to fit."? Someone needed to have a hardcover thrown their way when that was proposed.

So Summoner is still T3 but borderline T2.

Interesting. A lot of the sentiments are the same over on the other forums, but with them concluding the class is a guaranteed T0 unless you're a broodmaster and here we're looking at High-3 to Mid-2.

Summoner is T2. It's not high T3, and it's certainly not T1 or T0.

squiggit

2014-04-06, 10:30 PM

Because it has implications beyond the summoner class. If you want a summoner to get haste as a 2nd level spell, that's fine, but that's also going to affect the cost of magic items, allow other classes to get it as a 2nd level spell via shenanigans, and so forth. What could possibly be a good reason to ever make such a poor design choice? I know that Paizo designers aren't the most competent bunch, but I know for a fact that they are well aware of the strength of summoned creatures and permanent companions. What line of reasoning led to "You know what, we should add a bunch of spells from higher levels to its spell list and just reduce their spell levels to fit."? Someone needed to have a hardcover thrown their way when that was proposed.

Honestly I imagine the only thought was "If we only give them summons they won't have much of a spell list, so let's give them some buffs that synergize with summons too!".

My question is why they went with a 6 level caster instead of a 9 level caster because the Summoner feels significantly more like the 3.5 specialized mages than a psychic warrior or uh... I can't think of any other 6 level casters at the moment

TuggyNE

2014-04-06, 10:56 PM

Druid in the party took extend and earthbound metamagic feats along with summoned monster enhancing feats.

Anyrate, druids cast as spontanious casters when summoning critters, so he took the full round action to dump his spells to create an extended, earth bound nature's ally and set it up to summon the monster in the next square 5' over.

That does not work, since the (summoning) subschool forbids it (in both PF and 3.5): "A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have."

Raven777

2014-04-06, 10:57 PM

Coidzor

2014-04-06, 10:57 PM

squiggit

2014-04-06, 10:58 PM

Bard, Magus, Inquisitor. They do seem like they'd have fit better as fullcasters

... Strange that in a thread about Pathfinder I was only looking at 3.5 classes.

But yes, those.

Keneth

2014-04-06, 11:09 PM

My question is why they went with a 6 level caster instead of a 9 level caster because the Summoner feels significantly more like the 3.5 specialized mages than a psychic warrior or uh... I can't think of any other 6 level casters at the moment

They've already added two full casters in that book. Plus, if you give them 9 levels of spells, they're basically just spontaneous conjurers with a pet.

There are plenty of good spells from 1st to 6th level, and bard, magus, inquisitor, and alchemist do just fine with a normal spell list. What makes summoner so special?

nobodez

2014-04-06, 11:26 PM

Yeah, I looked at Synthesist and realized that, to play one properly, I'd have to max AC over damage, and then it'd not worth it.

Why?

Because the only way to heal the synthesist eidolon temp HP is with the specific spells that the synthesist gets (and even then, I'm still not sure if they even work, since the eidolon is considered temp HP).

As for the OP's question, Summoners aren't more broken than other T2 classes. They're not T1, but they're not T4 either (they might be T3, depending on the play style, but yeah, solid T3/T2).

Leadership is broken in general, so Summoners with it aren't any more broken than anyone else. The biggest break they create is the aforementioned magic item cost decreases. Also, a Magical archetype Bard can get Haste at 4th level, 1 level earlier than wizards, because of Summoners. Also, they make certain spells (along with the witch and inquisitor, and I'm sure a few other classes) eligible for wands when they'd otherwise not be (greater teleport, for instance, planar binding, summon monster 7, banishment, etc.).

Theomniadept

2014-04-06, 11:58 PM

Summoner is essentially Pathfinder's 3.5 Druid but with less magic. Some of their best spells like Glittderdust and Black Tentacles don't work as well in Pathfinder but are still completely solid, and the eidolon is just amazing and versatile as can be. Free Fighter that's better than fighter and can use magic weapons - basically like a Druid trading some spellcasting for a better animal companion.

I would say a solid Tier 2. Can't do 100% of everything but can contribute meaningfully and possibly solve every type of problem.

Coidzor

2014-04-07, 12:48 AM

They've already added two full casters in that book. Plus, if you give them 9 levels of spells, they're basically just spontaneous conjurers with a pet.

There are plenty of good spells from 1st to 6th level, and bard, magus, inquisitor, and alchemist do just fine with a normal spell list. What makes summoner so special?

They're more magey than any of them except for arguably the alchemist and then they'd just be of comparable mageiness. That's the most obvious difference I can pick up on at any rate.

Lord Vukodlak

2014-04-07, 01:15 AM

Because the only way to heal the synthesist eidolon temp HP is with the specific spells that the synthesist gets (and even then, I'm still not sure if they even work, since the eidolon is considered temp HP).
First off the archtype flat out states the temporary HP can be restored via rejuvenate eidolon.
Secondly synthesist summoner can still sacrifice his own HP to prevent the Eidolon's dismissal due to damage. So while he can't heal the synthesist eidolon with a wand of curing. He could sacrifice his own hit points to keep the Eidolon suit in play and then be healed himself via cure spells.

grarrrg

2014-04-07, 09:41 AM

Honestly I imagine the only thought was "If we only give them summons they won't have much of a spell list, so let's give them some buffs that synergize with summons too!".

My question is why they went with a 6 level caster instead of a 9 level caster because the Summoner feels significantly more like the 3.5 specialized mages than a psychic warrior or uh... I can't think of any other 6 level casters at the moment

I'd chalk this one up to "Paizo being Paizo".
They must have really wanted for it to have 3/4 Bab, but it's an Arcane Caster, we can't give 9 spell levels to a 3/4 Bab character! That's insane! Only Divine can do that!

But yeah, give em 9 spell levels, but only, say maximum 3 Slots per level.

First off the archtype flat out states the temporary HP can be restored via rejuvenate eidolon.

It may say that _now_, but we waited months for a FAQ entry, and __eventually__ Errata stating such.
Some people may very well not be aware of the Errata.

Secondly synthesist summoner can still sacrifice his own HP to prevent the Eidolon's dismissal due to damage. So while he can't heal the synthesist eidolon with a wand of curing. He could sacrifice his own hit points to keep the Eidolon suit in play and then be healed himself via cure spells.

You can only sacrifice your own HP if the Eidolon-suit would drop to/below 0. So you'd most likely still have a wounded suit to patch up later.

Person_Man

2014-04-07, 10:25 AM

My opinion is that, as written, summoning itself in 3.0/3.5/PF is an inherently broken mechanic for any player to have access to. Each time a player summons one or more creatures, they:

Doubles and/or multiplies the number of actions that the player gets each round.
Each summoned creature has a threatened area that helps control that battlefield.
Each summoned creature is a meat shield that can absorb damage in place of players (for anything but an area of effect attack).
Each summoned creature can potentially be used as a mount, granting the player additional movement forms and speeds.
Each summoned creature potentially has it's own special abilities/spells/SLA/etc, granting the player those new abilities for a temporary period of time.
Each summoned creature has it's own stat block and abilities, multiplying the amount of book keeping required.
Each summoned creature can potentially fill any Niche that a player can fill, granting a huge amount of flexibility.
Most summons are open ended, in that they are based on lists of creatures in certain spells, which designers have a tendency to add to every time they do a new environmental or campaign setting suppliment, in order to make it more likely that the new monsters that they've written will be used.

Most of the above is also true about any "pet" ability, such as an Animal Companion, Special Mount, Familiar, or Eidolon. Although at least those tend to be somewhat harder to replace.

Now I'm not claiming that Summoners shouldn't be used. I'm just saying that regardless of how you might rank them, they play very much like Tier 1-2 casters. If used responsibly by a reasonable player, they can be fun open ended magical characters. But if abused, they can grind combat to a halt or destroy any semblance of balance between players.

A "fixed" summoner would need to spend their Standard Action in order to direct their summoned/animated/dominated/etc creature(s). And the total of all summoned/animated/dominated/etc creature(s) would need a reasonable but absolute hit dice cap or other similar limitation.

On a side note, it looks like 5E may or may not have learned this lesson either, in that it still has a lot of "non-actions" that add to and potentially break the action economy. It's a shame. But it seems like designers are addicted to replicating previously written iconic spells/abilities without fitting them into any kind of balanced structure.

Ssalarn

2014-04-07, 12:12 PM

So, the short answer to the OP's question is "no". The Summoner itself is a cool and flavorful class that makes a solid edition to the game. It has a couple of problems that create issues in the wider game though-

Spell gained at much earlier levels. This creates several issues, including the fact that because of the Summoner there are spells that are now accessible in ways and at levels that they weren't previously. He can cast Haste at a level where no other class in the game can. He turns several spells into legal options for wands when previously they would have had to be used with a staff or more potent item. The Summon Monster spells can also become problematic if a GM doesn't know how to adjust for their ready and early access.

Adaptibility- The Eidolon is a custom built monster. Not only is it substantially more powerful than an animal companion, it's also much easier to custom build to particular purposes, and you gain spells to instantly provide with evolutions appropriate to a situation you didn't anticipate. The Summoner is a pretty solid Tier 2, and the Eidolon's adaptibility plays a huge role in this. His limited spell selection and full-casting-pretending-to-be-3/4 is much easier to compensate for with a big mutable buddy on hand.

DPR- The Summoner gets DPR that's almost automatically good. The only damage build for martial characters that's as much of a no-brainer is probably the THF combat style.

Ultimately though, the Summoner can't do anything that another class can't also do, and I wouldn't say he's any more "broken" than any other full caster. One of the big things that get people up in arms is that he's a very competent caster with DPR that meets or beats just about any other class, which creates a kind of knee-jerk reaction amongst a certain player base who get caught up in the idea of DPR. I think the thing to be aware of, as most experienced players figure out, is that DPR is actually one of the least efficient ways for a caster to do anything. Save-or-die or save-or-suck spells, even low level spells like color spray can make a much bigger difference in the outcome of a fight than the Summoner's pet draco-beast.

squiggit

2014-04-07, 01:09 PM

A "fixed" summoner would need to spend their Standard Action in order to direct their summoned/animated/dominated/etc creature(s). And the total of all summoned/animated/dominated/etc creature(s) would need a reasonable but absolute hit dice cap or other similar limitation.
4e half tried this by giving summons various actions that a wizard or Druid needed to spend their own standard (or immediate) to activate. Some summons had automatic actions but they usually weren't nearly a effective as spending your own standard to direct them.

Though in the end people basically just didn't take summons in 4e. Spending an action to summon something you ha to manually control anyways was considered a weak option. So can't say it really worked.

Incidentally, part of the problem with (lower level) summoning is the leeway DMs give the player. By RAW, they're NPCs who just attack the closest enemy unless ordered otherwise. Free action fiat makes giving complex orders to multiple summons difficult to do on top of that. Whereas in actual play I see most DMs letting the summoner control all his minions as a hve mind.

Sure, wouldn't stop shenanigans involving stealing SLAs or summoning a better fighter than the fighter, but it still might help a bit? Maybe?

killem2

2014-04-07, 01:17 PM

I'm still learning about pathfinder and such, but from what I've been reading and listening to (podcasts and such) Summoners get unfairly labeled as broken, because they are in fact quite a "solid" class. And with the classes in pathfinder already being elevated in over all power (exception being druid), when you have almost no draw backs, it can get stereo typed easy.

If I ever get to be a player in pathfinder, I'll roll one up!

GoodbyeSoberDay

2014-04-07, 01:53 PM

Are you sure the summoner summons better than the binder? They're from different systems, and I'm pretty sure that a binder's summons afford the binder a greater versatility of effects than the summoner's do.This bears repeating. Take a close look at the actual monsters in PF Summon Monster, and compare them to 3.5. Most of the beatsticks remain, but they took out many of the SLA users. This goes the same for SNA; you need special features to get back Unicorns and such. Sneaky nerfs.

Summoning 1d3+1 augmented whatevers still has most of the advantages Person_Man pointed out, but they're all very straightforward. You create some damage, some BFC, and some expendable HP. Not so much on the special open ended abilities any more - they still exist, but much less so. Compared to an optimized damage dealer, even a lowly mundane one, you're not exactly going to dominate combat either, except with how long it takes to go through your turn.

For times where you can't necessarily pre-buff (most casters will do very well with that sort of time), you're trading off a standard action to cast something else, like Haste. The fact that you're trading off doing one solid all-around action for another solid all-around action screams T3 to me. Before Gate, I find it hard to put the Summoner above the tier of the Dread Necromancer and Beguiler - two classes who also get a niche selection of higher level spells and a host of neat abilities as well.

Also, not that it matters too much, but you could make much more powerful summoners in 3.5. Greenbound Summoning Druids and Malconvokers come to mind.

Snowbluff

2014-04-07, 02:00 PM

Ultimately though, the Summoner can't do anything that another class can't also do, and I wouldn't say he's any more "broken" than any other full caster. One of the big things that get people up in arms is that he's a very competent caster with DPR that meets or beats just about any other class, which creates a kind of knee-jerk reaction amongst a certain player base who get caught up in the idea of DPR. I think the thing to be aware of, as most experienced players figure out, is that DPR is actually one of the least efficient ways for a caster to do anything. Save-or-die or save-or-suck spells, even low level spells like color spray can make a much bigger difference in the outcome of a fight than the Summoner's pet draco-beast.

Which means the answer is yes. Summon Monster has a much larger impact on how fights end up than an Eidolon, and they can be used to solve many other issues.

As for being actually broken, you do replace your crummy fighters easily. You do it without being inefficient, since the Eidolon doesn't rely on your actions. Not to mention Summoner does have some decent Save or Suck spells, like Slow and Grease. I mostly agree with Person_Man. Summoning is really strong. I wouldn't say they should have to take Standards to order around a summon, though. There's a fine line between bringing a line an ability, and making it entirely pointless. The summoner already can't have more than 1 summon out.

I would suggest playing it in PF, though. More Broken = More Fun.

I actually wish Summoners were proper 9th level casters, so they can have proper Summoning spells on their spell list. This would let them have an Eidolon without the artificial loss of Summon level.

Vedhin

2014-04-07, 02:20 PM

Nah, Summoners aren't broken, it's just incredibly easy to make a good Summoner build. They do have 9th level spells in 6 levels, but staggered so that you really get lower save DCs and more competition for slots and spells known. The eidolon is nice, but conflicts with summoning, keeping the action economy breakage down. Synthesist is actually a trade-down, because your eidolon essentially gains two feats at the cost of an extra full-round action each turn that is used to give it buffs.

Master Summoners (the archetype) are the real problem. Other summoners have a limit to how badly they can break the action economy. Master Summoners smash it to flinders.

Balance also decreases if you find this ruling (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mmn3?Inner-Sea-Magic#28) on the Wild Caller. But it is my opinion that that ruling is best discarded. On the other hand, I'd really enjoy a chance to play a Synthesist Wild Caller with that ruling.

Snowbluff

2014-04-07, 02:28 PM

Nah, Summoners aren't broken, it's just incredibly easy to make a good Summoner build. They do have 9th level spells in 6 levels, but staggered so that you really get lower save DCs and more competition for slots and spells known. The eidolon is nice, but conflicts with summoning, keeping the action economy breakage down. Synthesist is actually a trade-down, because your eidolon essentially gains two feats at the cost of an extra full-round action each turn that is used to give it buffs.

Master Summoners (the archetype) are the real problem. Other summoners have a limit to how badly they can break the action economy. Master Summoners smash it to flinders.

Yeah.

However, you're entirely wrong. Every summoner can do that at 13. Remember, being T1-2 and/or broken often has more to do with how well you do out of a fight, as well. The spell list helps that.

As for DCs, the max loss is 3. As you approach getting stronger spells, the DC is relatively lower. However, the DC is 0 starting off, and is less than 2 for most levels.

Vedhin

2014-04-07, 02:36 PM

Yeah.

However, you're entirely wrong.

:smallconfused:

Every summoner can do that at 13. Remember, being T1-2 and/or broken often has more to do with how well you do out of a fight, as well. The spell list helps that.

Do what at 13? And how? The Summoner is certainly high T3-low T2, but I only d=said it wasn't broken.

Snowbluff

2014-04-07, 02:43 PM

Do what at 13? And how? The Summoner is certainly high T3-low T2, but I only d=said it wasn't broken.
Simulacrum? The spell that can be used to beat lower Tier classes, by itself?

Summoner is T2. Strictly capable of easily breaking the game, while not having immediate access to it's entire spell list (Paragon Surge non-withstanding).

Here's a short list:
Replace the fighter (eidolon)
Chump blockers (summoning)
Assuming monster abilities and spell lists (simulacrum for spell lists, summoning for SLAs)
Replace the trapfinder (summoning)
Acquiring better action economy (eidolon, simulacrum, and summoning)

This is incredibly similiar to a sorcerer in many ways, which is where I put the "broken" category. Replacing other character is a pretty huge problem. Just because they can do that at their floor, doesn't make it any less broken. If you can break it easily, you have a broken class. The "easily" part is because with enough feats, you can cast ninth level spells... :smalltongue:

Killer Angel

2014-04-07, 02:52 PM

A summoner is powerful and fun to play, but (as already said) it's not at the top of the tiers, and it's not broken... however, it may seems so.
At first level, you are able to cast (probably) seven summon monster I, and then you still can count on your Eidolon... the reaction to this, could easily be "It's broken!!!"

That said, it can break the game. in the same way other T2 and T1 can... only, it breaks it with its own style.

Vedhin

2014-04-07, 04:39 PM

Simulacrum? The spell that can be used to beat lower Tier classes, by itself?

Oh, one of the ones my brain refuses to acknowledge exists. That explains my confusion.

Summoner is T2. Strictly capable of easily breaking the game, while not having immediate access to it's entire spell list (Paragon Surge non-withstanding).

Here's a short list:
Replace the fighter (eidolon)
Chump blockers (summoning)
Assuming monster abilities and spell lists (simulacrum for spell lists, summoning for SLAs)
Replace the trapfinder (summoning)
Acquiring better action economy (eidolon, simulacrum, and summoning)

This is incredibly similiar to a sorcerer in many ways, which is where I put the "broken" category. Replacing other character is a pretty huge problem. Just because they can do that at their floor, doesn't make it any less broken. If you can break it easily, you have a broken class. The "easily" part is because with enough feats, you can cast ninth level spells... :smalltongue:

Y'know, it's amazing how easily I forget the applications of summoning that aren't "kill things".

Snowbluff

2014-04-07, 04:49 PM

Oh, one of the ones my brain refuses to acknowledge exists. That explains my confusion.

Yeah, I avoid using it. It's too good, which is too bad. Simulacrum is one of my favorite spells... ever. It's kind of like a mini-gate.

Y'know, it's amazing how easily I forget the applications of summoning that aren't "kill things".

I have the same problem. I recently brought along a Familiar in my PFS games, because I noticed it could help me intimidate and Aid Attacks.

Gnaeus

2014-04-07, 05:45 PM

Simulacrum? The spell that can be used to beat lower Tier classes, by itself?

Nothing to write home about. Most of the short list casters have such spells.

Replace the fighter (eidolon)
Chump blockers (summoning)
Assuming monster abilities and spell lists (simulacrum for spell lists, summoning for SLAs)
Replace the trapfinder (summoning)
Acquiring better action economy (eidolon, simulacrum, and summoning)

This is incredibly similiar to a sorcerer in many ways, which is where I put the "broken" category. Replacing other character is a pretty huge problem. Just because they can do that at their floor, doesn't make it any less broken. If you can break it easily, you have a broken class. The "easily" part is because with enough feats, you can cast ninth level spells... :smalltongue:

With only 1 exception (the Dread Necro can't trapfind, although he can replace other low tier party roles like healer) I can do every single one of those things with a Beguiler or a Dread Necromancer. Beguiler does it with Dominate and glibness, Dread Necro with Animate Dead, Create Undead and Rebuke undead, and the shared planar binding line. If summoner is broken because of (highly nerfed in PF) summon monster, Dread Necro is at least as broken.

Snowbluff

2014-04-07, 05:52 PM

Nothing to write home about. Most of the short list casters have such spells.
Examples, please. I want to know how to grab 9th level cleric casting at level 13. One of the main reasons it's so messes up is that it can replicate creatures of twice you level, which gives access to abilities you can't otherwise access.

With only 1 exception (the Dread Necro can't trapfind, although he can replace other low tier party roles like healer) I can do every single one of those things with a Beguiler or a Dread Necromancer. Beguiler does it with Dominate and glibness, Dread Necro with Animate Dead, Create Undead and Rebuke undead, and the shared planar binding line. If summoner is broken because of (highly nerfed in PF) summon monster, Dread Necro is at least as broken.

Basic undead aren't nearly as useful, if you ask me. But you can get more powerful ones later. I think Beguiler is one of the stronger classes, but they can't fiat creatures into existence until later (and the spell isn't native to them), and Dominate is GM dependant.

Soras Teva Gee

2014-04-07, 06:42 PM

I don't think its been mentioned but Syntheists are one of the few ways to stat swap in Pathfinder.

You run a point buy and you can make an 8 8 8 Str/Dex/Con character at almost no penalty beyond the brief amount of time you won't have a summon around you. And that's the exact sort of shenanigans that Pathfinder otherwise does a fairly good job of stomping down. Anyone else wants to do polymorphing and they can still do it sure but need a good stat base to build upon. Okay maybe not 8 Con but general consensus is that you can serious take any stats and not be underpowered. You can even get by with a weak casting stat if you really want. Not nessecarily unbalancing but its easy to see how the sort of resentment that can happen when NAD and MAD are at the same table.

There's also things like the SLA Dimension Door at level 6 and the Dimensional Agility feat line which was clearly made for Monks but Summoners can start on early. Add that Eidolons can have a lot of attacks and you've got an deadly buzz saw... who also gets a lot of other spells just for good measure. Maybe not the best melee type possible in the game but its a damned easy in a game where say Divine Power is no longer quite insta-Fighter class in a can. Early entry negating a lot of the six level casting bite, just salt in the wound there.

...

Just in general summoning is probably about the most powerful move you can give a player. Its zero risk, negligible cost and all benefit, even if your minion can't succeed it wastes time and actions and clogs up you opponent. Never mind that as long as you have "ability that lets you select from list" you get an order of magnitude more flexiblity and chance to choose just the right summon for the task. So its always going to be a lot inherently closer to just breaking the game into tiny pieces, its exactly zero wonder that a specialist in summoning has a rep for being broken.

Yeah sure there's worse out there, but Summoners need less of a learning curve, plus far as I know they're not particularly weak at any level.

Gnaeus

2014-04-07, 07:01 PM

Examples, please. I want to know how to grab 9th level cleric casting at level 13. One of the main reasons it's so messes up is that it can replicate creatures of twice you level, which gives access to abilities you can't otherwise access.

You: Simulacrum "The spell that can be used to beat lower Tier classes, by itself"

Spells that can be used to beat lower tier classes by themselves include but are not limited to:
Dominate (You are a BSF. I go hang out at the mercenary guild in the city and Dominate 3 BSFs.)
Glibness ("You see my enemy over there? Archlich Ralph offered a huge reward for his head. You let me have his stuff and you can keep the body and claim the reward.")
Animate Dead (Double your HD in the beefiest monsters your party ever killed healable at will by a dread necro)
Planar Binding (2 days before the adventure I start summoning. Now I have 2 summoned meat shields, a summoned party face and a summoned debuffer.)
Animate Dread Warrior (Raise any slain enemy humanoids as loyal slaves, stolen from Sor/Wiz with advanced learning)

Basic undead aren't nearly as useful, if you ask me. But you can get more powerful ones later.

All I need to find is one Shadow, Allip, or Wight. I can make the wight myself with Fell Drain, a commoner, and a first level spell slot if i need to. 2 rebuked wights per level + their commanded spawn is pretty significant at level 8.

I think Beguiler is one of the stronger classes, but they can't fiat creatures into existence until later (and the spell isn't native to them), and Dominate is GM dependant.

At a certain level yes, you wouldn't want to count on Dominate to replace your whole party. But if all you need are some meatshields, you really should be able to replace your fighter in any mid sized city. With a little luck, you should be able to replace your fighter with enemies you find while adventuring. And for some purposes, it is better than summons (A summoned monster can't tell you what is ahead in the dungeon and where all the traps are and how to bypass them, for example. A Dominated flunky can do that.)

And again, it is way way easier for a beguiler or dread necro to add spells known than for the summoner. If Simulacrum makes a class tier 2, I can add simulacrum to a Beguiler with 1 feat, and get Magic Jar, Limited Wish, Wish and Vampiric Touch for free.

Snowbluff

2014-04-07, 07:52 PM

You: Simulacrum "The spell that can be used to beat lower Tier classes, by itself"

:smallsigh: "A spell." You're wasting time pointing out the obvious to me. The sentence started as something like "The spell I used to beat that uppity ranger." I even pointed out gate in another post, highlighting the existence of other, powerful spells.

All I need to find is one Shadow, Allip, or Wight. I can make the wight myself with Fell Drain, a commoner, and a first level spell slot if i need to. 2 rebuked wights per level + their commanded spawn is pretty significant at level 8.

Wights become significantly weaker as you level, and are subject to builds. I have no idea what kind of mileage you could get out of an army comprised of nothing but 4 HD creatures after a certain point. Would anything that served as a credible threat to a substantially powerful player be threatened in turn by +3 to attack?

I think Allips are more viable for a longer period of time. Summon Undead should help you collect and rebuke a spawn, IIRC.

At a certain level yes, you wouldn't want to count on Dominate to replace your whole party. But if all you need are some meatshields, you really should be able to replace your fighter in any mid sized city. With a little luck, you should be able to replace your fighter with enemies you find while adventuring. And for some purposes, it is better than summons (A summoned monster can't tell you what is ahead in the dungeon and where all the traps are and how to bypass them, for example. A Dominated flunky can do that.)
Dominate is *entirely* based on DM fiat. No part of the spell operates without a good selection of vulnerable creatures. The same goes for animated undead, since "corpses by level" isn't exactly a common resource.

And again, it is way way easier for a beguiler or dread necro to add spells known than for the summoner. If Simulacrum makes a class tier 2, I can add simulacrum to a Beguiler with 1 feat, and get Magic Jar, Limited Wish, Wish and Vampiric Touch for free.I'll come out and tell you that Beguilers may select it with Advanced Learning on the edge of the levels the tier list considers. Additions of other spells outside of Advanced Learning violate the "easily" phrasing portion of what I consider broken. Everyone did read the part about being able to cast ninth level spells when given enough feats, right?

By the way, I am Snowbluff. Are you confused about the new avatar? It sounds like you're talking to someone who knows nothing about beguilers and the game as a whole.

Vedhin

2014-04-07, 08:00 PM

Everyone did read the part about being able to cast ninth level spells when given enough feats, right?

In 3.5, it's also possible to stick full manifesting on just about anything through the right combination of feats.

Snowbluff

2014-04-07, 08:01 PM

In 3.5, it's also possible to stick full manifesting on just about anything through the right combination of feats.

Wow, that's interesting. How does that work? :smallsmile:

Vedhin

2014-04-07, 09:18 PM

Wow, that's interesting. How does that work? :smallsmile:

Abandon all notions of RAI and RACSD, ye who enter here.

First step is acquiring a (scaling) ML and a power point reserve. The best way to accomplish this is to be a Kalashtar and take the Kalashtar Mindlink feat. You get ML equal to your HD, and power points equal to your HD. You could also take Hidden Talent and a Host feat (Complete Psionic) to get a small amount of pp and ML equal to half your HD.
Next, we invoke a rule found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#abilitiesAndManifesters). It states that "a character who manifests powers gains bonus power points according to his key ability score." So a Kalashtar gets them based on Charisma, and a Host based on whatever mental attribute you chose. Kalashtar might need Hidden Talent.

That part comes from a poster here named mabriss lethe. The next bit, getting powers known, comes from me (and works with anything that has a ML and power points).

This is founded on the wording of Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge). Contrary to popular opinion, it keys not off the highest level of power you know, but that you can manifest. Psionics' Golden Rule about not spending more power points than your ML enables the next phase of the trick. See, that rule is the only rule governing how many power points you can spend. Enter this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#powerPoints), correlating power point cost to level of power. With these, we can manifest powers with a cost no greater than our ML, and we know what levels we can manifest. So take Expanded Knowledge for whatever is available. If you have a persnickety DM, take a level in a manifesting class and invoke the rules for manifesting from another's powers known (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown[/url) to actually manifest a power of the highest level your ML will allow.

Voila! You are one power level behind compared to psions (if you go Kalashtar), and you are limited to 8th level powers. On the other hand, you likely have a much better chassis. Plus, you could enter a psionic theurge with only a single dip in a manifesting class.

Also, this allows for adding nice powers like hustle and psionic lion's charge to a mundane character. If you know the power, you can use dorjes of it, getting around the low quantity of power points.

Snowbluff

2014-04-07, 09:31 PM

Interesting. Mooching stuff of other classes is my favorite way to spend feats. Thanks, Martial Study/Draconic Aura/Shape Soulmeld/etc. :smallbiggrin:

Abandon all notions of RAI and RACSD, ye who enter here.

I never had the patience for them, anyway. :smalltongue:

Gnaeus

2014-04-07, 10:04 PM

:smallsigh: "A spell." You're wasting time pointing out the obvious to me. The sentence started as something like "The spell I used to beat that uppity ranger."

Good, then we are agreed that there are multiple spells that single handledly obsolete low tier classes, and that the summoner, like the OTHER tier 3 classes, has some of them.

Wights become significantly weaker as you level, and are subject to builds. I have no idea what kind of mileage you could get out of an army comprised of nothing but 4 HD creatures after a certain point. Would anything that served as a credible threat to a substantially powerful player be threatened in turn by +3 to attack?

Potentially. A 10th level fighter might very well have difficulty with 20 wights + their spawn. Even at only 8/turn, he is going to be steadily eating negative levels, and will be seriously impeded in movement. Larger creatures would be subject to far more level draining attacks. I'm looking at Wights because they are guaranteed available under your own power from level 8, whereas simulacra are not available until almost the top of the mid level range. Shadows are, of course, better, and while common, are not guaranteed. (although they will be guaranteed in any campaign with a magic mart where you can buy a high level scroll).

Dominate is *entirely* based on DM fiat. No part of the spell operates without a good selection of vulnerable creatures. The same goes for animated undead, since "corpses by level" isn't exactly a common resource.

Unless the DM is preventing the beguiler from ever entering a city, he can find people to dominate. He doesn't need to find some rare spawn in a dungeon. And corpses? Every party I have ever been in generates lots of corpses, including some of nice big thuddy fighter replacers.

I'll come out and tell you that Beguilers may select it with Advanced Learning on the edge of the levels the tier list considers. Additions of other spells outside of Advanced Learning violate the "easily" phrasing portion of what I consider broken. Everyone did read the part about being able to cast ninth level spells when given enough feats, right?

On the contrary, advanced learning is beguiler 101. The only reason why any beguiler or DN who has a clue what they are doing will not have Advanced Learning is if they are spending their resources aiming at some other spell list expanding class like shadowcraft gnome. It is the fixed list caster equivalent of learning that TWF is worse than 2 handed.

By the way, I am Snowbluff. Are you confused about the new avatar? It sounds like you're talking to someone who knows nothing about beguilers and the game as a whole.

When you post a list that suggests that people reach 2 via minionmancy, you get what you get.

If Summoners are tier 2 and broken, Dread Necromancers and Beguilers are both tier 2 and broken.

Coidzor

2014-04-07, 10:30 PM

And again, it is way way easier for a beguiler or dread necro to add spells known than for the summoner. If Simulacrum makes a class tier 2, I can add simulacrum to a Beguiler with 1 feat, and get Magic Jar, Limited Wish, Wish and Vampiric Touch for free.

Arcane Disciple for a relatively niche domain or...? :smallconfused:

squiggit

2014-04-07, 10:37 PM

It makes sense for them to get some level 9 spells. The specialized summoner not having access to the top tier summons would be silly... but I can't for the life of me figure out why they have Dominate Monster, doesn't seem to really fit with their themes. Other than giving them another minion I guess.

I wonder if any of the reason why Summoners seem to get more hate than other classes is that they're new? We're trained to kowtow before our Wizard and Cleric overlords (and orcales are just a spin on the latter), but the Summoner is new... so potentially easier to despise?

edit: Not to say that people aren't undeservedly wary of the summoner.

Snowbluff

2014-04-07, 10:45 PM

Good, then we are agreed that there are multiple spells that single handledly obsolete low tier classes, and that the summoner, like the OTHER tier 3 classes, has some of them. Summoner does it before he expends his first spell slot. I think it works much better under the unique conditions the summoner operates under. Minute per level SLA (no verbal or somatic components) more times per day than a wizard's highest spell slot is a damn good source of versatility. Beguiler and Dread Necro don't have that crap built in, even if their lists come close and they can build towards it (like everything else).

When you post a list that suggests that people reach 2 via minionmancy, you get what you get.

Binder manages it.

Vedhin

2014-04-08, 08:17 AM

Interesting. Mooching stuff of other classes is my favorite way to spend feats. Thanks, Martial Study/Draconic Aura/Shape Soulmeld/etc. :smallbiggrin:

Something I forgot to mention: power research (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#independentResearch). That can potentially remove the need for Expanded Knowledge.

Story

2014-04-08, 09:22 AM

Binder manages it.

Yes, but Binder is 3.5, not using the nerfed SM lists from Pathfinder. Also, Binder gets a free floating item crafting feat and a number of other nifty abilities they can switch out on a daily basis.

Ssalarn

2014-04-08, 10:23 AM

I don't think its been mentioned but Syntheists are one of the few ways to stat swap in Pathfinder.

You run a point buy and you can make an 8 8 8 Str/Dex/Con character at almost no penalty beyond the brief amount of time you won't have a summon around you. And that's the exact sort of shenanigans that Pathfinder otherwise does a fairly good job of stomping down. Anyone else wants to do polymorphing and they can still do it sure but need a good stat base to build upon. Okay maybe not 8 Con but general consensus is that you can serious take any stats and not be underpowered. You can even get by with a weak casting stat if you really want. Not nessecarily unbalancing but its easy to see how the sort of resentment that can happen when NAD and MAD are at the same table.

But you can build the exact same Summoner using the core class and have a bigger impact on the battlefield because you'll have twice the action economy of the Synthesist. You can still have a melee brute dealing the exact same amount of damage but you also get a competent full-caster-masquerading-as-3/4 who can buff, counterspell, and do battlefield control.

The Synthesist is not a good example of how the Summoner is broken because he's essentially the training wheels Summoner. It's harder to restore your Eidolon's damage because you're the only one who can do it now since his hp have been transformed into temp hp, and you have less action economy, so you can fight or cast, but not both. The benefit is that once you've slogged through all the FAQs and actually built your character you only have to manage one action pool for a character that's kind of like an Eldritch Knight on crack.

Snowbluff

2014-04-08, 10:58 AM

Yes, but Binder is 3.5, not using the nerfed SM lists from Pathfinder. Also, Binder gets a free floating item crafting feat and a number of other nifty abilities they can switch out on a daily basis.

The SM monster list isn't that bad. You can find creatures useful for lots of occasions. Some creatures are better, like how the Lantern Archon seems to have obtained DR 10/Evil.

Spells, Su abilities. They're both handy. I think the spells have a bit more mileage in this case.

The item creation feat is good, but with the increased number of feats, fewer interesting choices for competition, and changes made to the crafting system make crafting feats affordable to a spontaneous caster. However, I'll include my caveat of this being a build decision.

Story

2014-04-08, 11:24 AM

The item creation feat is good, but with the increased number of feats, fewer interesting choices for competition, and changes made to the crafting system make crafting feats affordable to a spontaneous caster. However, I'll include my caveat of this being a build decision.

Yeah, after I posted that, I realized that the increased number of feats, removal of XP costs and ability to completely ignore prerequisites, makes crafting much better in PF. Every caster gets to be a pesudo-Artificer now. So advantage Summoner, I guess.

Still, Binder gets some nice things that Summoner just can't do. For example, at level 1, they have an unlimited use, unlimited duration, unlimited range (Su) ability to summon UAVs Ravens. Not useful for combat but it makes them awesome for scouting and can trivialize entire quests in some cases. I don't think Summoners get anything similar and they specialize in summoning.

Snowbluff

2014-04-08, 11:26 AM

Yeah, I used to run the birds into traps on my Binder/Warlock. Fun times. :smalltongue:

CockroachTeaParty

2014-04-08, 11:34 AM

Here's some of my experiences DMing for a Summoner in an RL game; 'tales from the front,' if you will:

The group consists of the following characters:
-The Summoner, with a quadruped pounce-focused eidolon.
-A rogue
-A ranger (newest member of the group, doesn't really know what he's doing)
-A THF fighter
-The fighter's cleric cohort.

Originally, the group was three people (the rogue, the summoner, and the fighter), so I actually encouraged summoner and Leadership to help fill out the ranks. Now that the ranger has joined us, you would think things are just crazy. However, the rogue rarely ever contributes to the goings-on; she is too cautious (perhaps cowardly/lazy) to scout or disable traps, and is built around spring attack, occasionally delivering single sneak attacks perhaps once per combat.

The ranger is a newb, his build basically being dictated by the fighter's player, who knows what he's doing. The ranger occasionally contributes some mild DPS, being a switch-hitter build.

The fighter/cleric and the summoner/eidolon are being played by seasoned veterans. The power of the party lies solidly in their capable hands. They rely on the cleric for healing and some buffs, but he mostly stays on the sidelines. The fighter has the best DPS of the party, far outshining the eidolon.

The summoner himself focuses his spells on buffing the eidolon and utility (he's the teleport monkey). The eidolon has decent damage output, particularly if he can pounce. What the eidolon can do much better than the fighter, or anyone else in the party, is tank. With the selection of some basic evolutions, combined with the inherent benefits the eidolon gets from leveling up, it has a respectable AC. Combine that with the Share Spells ability to get not normally shareable spells such as Shield, and the eidolon becomes all but untouchable. His lower HP compared to the fighter doesn't matter, since he very rarely gets hit by anything other than a natural 20.

The party is level 12, and the eidolon often has an AC in the upper 30's. He is naturally large, and when Enlarge Person is cast upon him he becomes Huge, allowing him a great deal of battlefield control, as well as just being an impenetrable wall of HP, AC, and STR.

This all sounds very impressive, and while I would say the summoner forms a major part of the 'core' of the party's strength, he can still feel threatened by certain situations. His eidolon being naturally large, there are occasions when he is too big to be convenient in cramped dungeons and caves; in these situations, it's often better to dismiss the eidolon, relying on summons and the fighter to take the hits and kill the monsters.

In the end, I'd say the summoner is a low Tier 2. He can solve a great deal of problems, mostly through brute strength with his eidolon, but now and again dipping into the summon monster SLA's for unique solutions. He also is a UMD fiend, relying on wands for his own offensive output during fights.

Karoht

2014-04-08, 01:28 PM

The Summoner is actually pretty easy to shut down.
Dispel Magic/Greater removes buffs, the Eidolon, Summons, etc.
Dismissal/Banishment.
Grappling the Summoner.
Grappling the Eidolon.
Silence. Some Summoners will take Still Spell but rarely will they take Silent Spell. Plenty of their spells require a verbal component. Severely limit their options.

And the big one...
Forbiddance-Shuts down summoning spells and effects within the area. If the Eidolon walks into an area of Forbiddance, may take damage, summoner may take it as well (if not a Synthesist). And at 1500 GP for a perminant 60ft cube, most of the important areas of a dungeon can be warded. It's a 6th level Cleric spell, and at that level (12) it can be very annoying for a Summoner of equal or lesser level to deal with. You can't Dispel a Forbiddance unless you are equal or greater level than the caster, the Dispel fails automatically otherwise.

Snowbluff

2014-04-08, 01:35 PM

You know that's not any less true for most classes, right? :smallconfused:

It's a good thing a Summoner can still cast spells under most of those conditions.

Lord Vukodlak

2014-04-08, 02:36 PM

You know that's not any less true for most classes, right? :smallconfused:

It's a good thing a Summoner can still cast spells under most of those conditions.

He might as well have said killing them shuts down Summoners pretty easily. Some of them don't even work on a summoner, dispel magic doesn't work on Eidolon. The summoner is going to have far more castings of summon monster then you'll ever have dismissal/banishment. And oh yeah... grappling and Eidolon... that actually sounds like a very bad idea because it won't stop them from ripping out apart with every natural attack

Killer Angel

2014-04-08, 03:10 PM

Wile I agree on the general concept

The Summoner is actually pretty easy to shut down.
Dispel Magic/Greater removes buffs, the Eidolon, Summons, etc.
Dismissal/Banishment.
Grappling the Summoner.
Grappling the Eidolon.
Silence. Some Summoners will take Still Spell but rarely will they take Silent Spell. Plenty of their spells require a verbal component. Severely limit their options.

Yeah, but you must be able to to 2 or 3 of these at the same moment.
For example, if you're grappling the Eidolon (not a great move IMO, but anyway), I cast an appropriate summon, the eidolon goes away and the summoned critters shred the enemy to pieces.
So, you must cover more basis... and this means you're using a consistent portion of your resources management to shut down a single PC.

And the big one...
Forbiddance-

This starts to be situational...

Karoht

2014-04-08, 03:26 PM

This starts to be situational...Possibly prevents the Eidolon from entering, most likely wastes resources in the form of damage (to hopefully the Eidolon and the Summoner). Definitely prevents any summoning, a major part of the kit of the class. Prevents teleportation out of the field as well, so that Dimension Door they have is no good. Sure, they have other spells, but this severely limits the options. Most of the options that everyone is saying makes them broken in fact. That 9th level spell they get access to? Nope. In fact, nope to 3 out of 4 of them. With a 6th level Divine Spell. One that can be set up days in advance and cover quite a large area without much effort, so it doesn't even take action economy on the part of your antagonists. Set up a good ambush to go with it, the Summoner can be easily put on the back foot.

Lord Vukodlak

2014-04-08, 07:09 PM

Possibly prevents the Eidolon from entering, most likely wastes resources in the form of damage (to hopefully the Eidolon and the Summoner). Definitely prevents any summoning, a major part of the kit of the class. Prevents teleportation out of the field as well, so that Dimension Door they have is no good. Sure, they have other spells, but this severely limits the options. Most of the options that everyone is saying makes them broken in fact. That 9th level spell they get access to? Nope. In fact, nope to 3 out of 4 of them. With a 6th level Divine Spell. One that can be set up days in advance and cover quite a large area without much effort, so it doesn't even take action economy on the part of your antagonists. Set up a good ambush to go with it, the Summoner can be easily put on the back foot.

Not really Forbiddance stops you from summoning within the area but summons are no more hindered from entering the area then anyone else, Given the fact that a summoner's spell-like summon monster lasts minutes a level they could summon the creatures outside the area and then walk them in. So really Forbiddance is more of an annoyance, and the planar travel blocking works regardless of alignment so the defensive cleric might shoot themselves in the foot by blocking their own word of recall escape plan.

Killer Angel

2014-04-09, 06:31 AM

Possibly prevents the Eidolon from entering, most likely wastes resources in the form of damage (to hopefully the Eidolon and the Summoner). Definitely prevents any summoning, a major part of the kit of the class. Prevents teleportation out of the field as well, so that Dimension Door they have is no good. Sure, they have other spells, but this severely limits the options. Most of the options that everyone is saying makes them broken in fact. That 9th level spell they get access to? Nope. In fact, nope to 3 out of 4 of them. With a 6th level Divine Spell. One that can be set up days in advance and cover quite a large area without much effort, so it doesn't even take action economy on the part of your antagonists. Set up a good ambush to go with it, the Summoner can be easily put on the back foot.

I'm not debating Forbiddance's effectiveness (altough, as noted, is more an annoyance for the summoner, rather than a "screw you").
I was debating it's frequency: Forbiddance is a relatively uncommon situation.
It's a sixth lev. spell, so in an adventure path 1-8 lev., it won't be faced by the PCs (at most once, in the final confrontation with the bbeg)
At higher levels it will appear, yes, but not all the enemies are NPC, and not all the NPC are casters that need to defend a specific place.
Hence the "it's situational"

Psyren

2014-04-09, 07:53 AM

1) Simulacrum only breaks the game if your DM lets it. It's certainly powerful/useful, but if you're being given a full-strength copy of creature X (including casting ability) then you're going pretty clearly against designer intent.

2) Summoners are strong but rather easy to counter. Nearly every caster in the game has dispel magic for a reason, and some have dismissal as well. If they're using an Eidolon, lock it down or ambush the squishy guy hiding several feet behind it. These are not unreasonable tactics for an enemy to devise, especially an enemy who has learned there is a summoner with the party and prepares for him.

Having said that, I do consider Synthesist to be a problem - no class should be capable of neglecting its physical stats and be that good at physical combat. Master Summoner is also a problem as they can really bog down a fight if the summons are allowed to stick around.

Snowbluff

2014-04-09, 08:43 AM

1) Simulacrum only breaks the game if your DM lets it. It's certainly powerful/useful, but if you're being given a full-strength copy of creature X (including casting ability) then you're going pretty clearly against designer intent.
If you know what you're doing, even half-casting creatures are good. One of the thinks I did was a hive mind of pseudodragon spies, for example.

Having said that, I do consider Synthesist to be a problem - no class should be capable of neglecting its physical stats and be that good at physical combat. Master Summoner is also a problem as they can really bog down a fight if the summons are allowed to stick around.

It's still strictly weaker. I am not convinced the stat dumping thing is a really a problem, considering the points don't have anywhere to go. "Oh man, this extra 2 to Cha is great, because my spells DCs are 1 behind a full caster at this level." It's not until later the Synthesist is capable of having more Strength than a dedicated melee, which only fills in their pseudo-3/4 BAB.

Psyren

2014-04-09, 09:10 AM

If you know what you're doing, even half-casting creatures are good. One of the thinks I did was a hive mind of pseudodragon spies, for example.

Hive Minds were never officially updated to 3.5 so the DM is at fault here again for letting you have them in their unmodified and clearly broken form.

It's still strictly weaker. I am not convinced the stat dumping thing is a really a problem, considering the points don't have anywhere to go. "Oh man, this extra 2 to Cha is great, because my spells DCs are 1 behind a full caster at this level." It's not until later the Synthesist is capable of having more Strength than a dedicated melee, which only fills in their pseudo-3/4 BAB.

It's not just Str - they can dump all three physical stats, still outfight the melee and still be the party's primary caster if they wish. That's a problem because even Druids have to deal with that tradeoff if they want to be effective at melee. It makes it more likely that they will steal the spotlight from the other players at the table.

Snowbluff

2014-04-09, 09:15 AM

Hive Minds were never officially updated to 3.5 so the DM is at fault here again for letting you have them in their unmodified and clearly broken form. Not a Hive Mind, a hive mind. You're seeing DMs where there aren't any. :smalltongue:

It's not just Str - they can dump all three physical stats, still outfight the melee and still be the party's primary caster if they wish. That's a problem because even Druids have to deal with that tradeoff if they want to be effective at melee. It makes it more likely that they will steal the spotlight from the other players at the table.
So? How does dumping stats actually affect the balance of the game? Where do the stats go? Does it really matter where they are going?

Soras Teva Gee

2014-04-09, 09:37 AM

But you can build the exact same Summoner using the core class and have a bigger impact on the battlefield because you'll have twice the action economy of the Synthesist. You can still have a melee brute dealing the exact same amount of damage but you also get a competent full-caster-masquerading-as-3/4 who can buff, counterspell, and do battlefield control.

The Synthesist is not a good example of how the Summoner is broken because he's essentially the training wheels Summoner. It's harder to restore your Eidolon's damage because you're the only one who can do it now since his hp have been transformed into temp hp, and you have less action economy, so you can fight or cast, but not both. The benefit is that once you've slogged through all the FAQs and actually built your character you only have to manage one action pool for a character that's kind of like an Eldritch Knight on crack.

A normal Summoner presents also presents a separate target with squisher baseline that will take out both targets if killed. Tactically speaking that's a got a certain level of trade-off and arguing that one is better 'most of the time' well... when screwing up can mean death raw probability is rather less compelling.

In contrast a Synthesist gets to go through both stacks of HP before going down via Fused Link and also will always be getting boosts to AC and saves so its going to be tougher then either half of the equation on its own. I tend to think that if something can tear through both stacks of HP in a fight that badly you should be showing the better part of valor while slugging your best potion and hoping you get away... well I have never had terribly much faith in restoring HP in a fight as a means to victory for anyone. Healing is for between battles and letting you run away you ask me.

Of course this is all besides the point since I never argued at any point that this was the highest-op option. And still don't. You don't have to be to highest tier mathematically possible to destabilize a game. A synthesist in say a low point buy game or other low power game for example. Or just simply that they don't have to make the trade-offs say someone using the polymorph line for the same concept does. Or being hard to top in the melee/damage niche, limitations of that niche are broader system issues not character class issues. Or just simply the 'built in factor' of being right in the class description not scouring the books so that any idiot can not screw it up.

All of these make for legitimate opinions as far as a quality like "broken" goes.

Yeah, after I posted that, I realized that the increased number of feats, removal of XP costs and ability to completely ignore prerequisites, makes crafting much better in PF. Every caster gets to be a pesudo-Artificer now. So advantage Summoner, I guess.

Other then giving everyone equal and equivalent access to Crafting (only a few easy HRs away actually) there's really nothing to do about that topic anyways regardless of class.

The other answer just is like Leadership. Don't even pretend its supposed to be "balanced" and just decide whether or not its the sort of thing that as the GM fits your campaign or not. Its ludicrously easy to make them total wastes by simply never giving the time needed to do it.

The Summoner is actually pretty easy to shut down.
Dispel Magic/Greater removes buffs, the Eidolon, Summons, etc.
Dismissal/Banishment.
Grappling the Summoner.
Grappling the Eidolon.
Silence. Some Summoners will take Still Spell but rarely will they take Silent Spell. Plenty of their spells require a verbal component. Severely limit their options.

Several of those aren't good options and you need at least a couple at once to do the job. And while that's fairly easy for a GM its really the basic problem right there, the Summoners are BOGO for the players.

Though messing with and it would be easy to render the class a master-of-none case.

squiggit

2014-04-09, 10:19 AM

A normal Summoner presents also presents a separate target with squisher baseline that will take out both targets if killed.
Though remember when the summoner hits 14 you can't drop him while his eidolon is still up. Makes them a huge bitch to kill especially when they have Summon Eidolon to pull it back even if you do kill it.

Psyren

2014-04-09, 10:39 AM

Not a Hive Mind, a hive mind. You're seeing DMs where there aren't any. :smalltongue:

What, like using them as a spy network with their telepathy? How is that broken? Particularly when you spend 12 hours making each one.

So? How does dumping stats actually affect the balance of the game? Where do the stats go? Does it really matter where they are going?

The class has fewer weaknesses - stronger fort and reflex saves, so it can (for example) eschew a cloak of resistance instead of something else in that slot. Grappling it is not nearly as big a deal as grappling any other T2, especially before FoM comes online. Traps, ambushes, all kinds of unexpected threats become trivial since you're waltzing around with far more HP than your class is expected to have. And so on.

Vedhin

2014-04-09, 11:10 AM

So? How does dumping stats actually affect the balance of the game? Where do the stats go? Does it really matter where they are going?

I'll second this. My experiences with Synthesists has taught me that while you can dump stats, you don't gain much. You should already have high Charisma (you're a caster), Wisdom gets you nothing but slightly better Will saves (admittedly good, but not gamebreaking), and Intelligence gives you more than two skill points (*mock horror!*). Sure you can have low physical stats, but you gain more from Constitution and Dexterity (hp, two saves, and initiative when not in the eidolon) than from Intelligence and Wisdom (one save and skills you likely don't need).

If you have a strict melee focus (neglecting summoning, so always using the eidolon), then Intelligence and Wisdom might be better. But if you're making full use of your class features, you'll likely want Dexterity and Constitution more.

And the eidolon, despite having decent stats, isn't great. The Biped has 16 Strength, but loses Pounce (a major draw). The quadruped has only 14 Strength. Sure, there's an evolution to increase your stats, but it takes 2 points and is once/6 levels for a given stat. The size-increasing evolution is akin to Permanancied Enlarge Person, and doubles the cost of stat increases for Strength and Constitution.

The class has fewer weaknesses - stronger fort and reflex saves, so it can (for example) eschew a cloak of resistance instead of something else in that slot.

Why would you choose something other than a Cloak of Resistance? The Phoenix Cloak isn't around in PF, and that's the only other major shoulder-slot item I can think of.

Grappling it is not nearly as big a deal as grappling any other T2, especially before FoM comes online. Traps, ambushes, all kinds of unexpected threats become trivial since you're waltzing around with far more HP than your class is expected to have. And so on.

The A problem with grappling in my experience, is that adventurers have allies. Grappling one adventurer gets the rest to gang up on you.
And generally, unexpected threats have a decent chance of catching you without your eidolon, leaving you with your normal hit points. That extra hp is also harder to heal, so attrition tactics (like traps, ambushes, and such) are more effective against a Synthesist.

Snowbluff

2014-04-09, 11:18 AM

What, like using them as a spy network with their telepathy? How is that broken? Particularly when you spend 12 hours making each one.

That trick alone is not broken, just useful. The thing about simulacrum is that you get a disproportionate variety of uses out of it. Another one that popped up was grabbing Solars to cast Shield Other on their master.

Spells like this an gate should have a "100 hundred things you can do with x."

Psyren

2014-04-09, 01:03 PM

Why would you choose something other than a Cloak of Resistance? The Phoenix Cloak isn't around in PF, and that's the only other major shoulder-slot item I can think of.

You can still make it a lower priority even if you plan to get it, allocating your WBL elsewhere initially, since you can replace your physical stats at will.

The A problem with grappling in my experience, is that adventurers have allies. Grappling one adventurer gets the rest to gang up on you.

Monsters have allies too, and can very easily outnumber the party.

And generally, unexpected threats have a decent chance of catching you without your eidolon, leaving you with your normal hit points.

Why, when you can walk around with it on all day long? Why wouldn't you, especially in the wilderness?

That trick alone is not broken, just useful. The thing about simulacrum is that you get a disproportionate variety of uses out of it. Another one that popped up was grabbing Solars to cast Shield Other on their master.

Again, not saying it isn't powerful/useful, just not broken.

Shield Other is not on a Solar's "spells prepared" list, so it's up to the DM whether you get one that has it. And even that isn't broken, since you just spent 12 hours creating something with half-HP that may turn around and die just from trying to protect you in that very specific manner.

Snowbluff

2014-04-09, 01:21 PM

Again, not saying it isn't powerful/useful, just not broken.

Shield Other is not on a Solar's "spells prepared" list, so it's up to the DM whether you get one that has it. And even that isn't broken, since you just spent 12 hours creating something with half-HP that may turn around and die just from trying to protect you in that very specific manner.

The solar may prepare new spells. It casts as a cleric, remember? That'd be a DM issued, non-RAW nerf. It's bad enough we're considering that they may be 10th level casters, since their CL isn't tied to their HD. Generating spell effects past one's HD or Level is normal in Pf, anyway.

Anyway, they have regeneration. Unless you're being hit with an evil weapon, spell, or effect, they take non-lethal damage.

Psyren

2014-04-09, 01:59 PM

The solar may prepare new spells. It casts as a cleric, remember? That'd be a DM issued, non-RAW nerf. It's bad enough we're considering that they may be 10th level casters, since their CL isn't tied to their HD. Generating spell effects past one's HD or Level is normal in Pf, anyway.

It can, but now you're talking about 24 - 36 hours of prep time before your cohort is ready to roll. It's functionally little different than just going out and hiring a CL 11 cleric NPC.

You also need to walk around with the ice sculpture intact beforehand, which you can't even eschew away.

Anyway, they have regeneration. Unless you're being hit with an evil weapon, spell, or effect, they take non-lethal damage.

Remember how that works in PF - a single enemy can poke them for 1 point of evil and then every enemy in eyeshot can unload on them while their regen is turned off (or unload on you so the damage transfers.)

Snowbluff

2014-04-09, 02:05 PM

It can, but now you're talking about 24 - 36 hours of prep time before your cohort is ready to roll. It's functionally little different than just going out and hiring a CL 11 cleric NPC.
Yeah, but I can't hire an NPC cleric without an NPC cleric. This is something I can do myself.

For further reading, please see the posts about people hiring wizards to help their rangers fight a wizard.

You also need to walk around with the ice sculpture intact beforehand, which you can't even eschew away.

*shrugs*Before hand? I though I would just carve a crappy, ambiguous sculpture and call it a day. :smalltongue:

EDIT: The sculpture has no cost, so I already have one of each creature in my Spell Component Pouch, and I may eschew that cost. The rubies are the cost I cannot eschew without crafting a wand of Blood Money.

Remember how that works in PF - a single enemy can poke them for 1 point of evil and then every enemy in eyeshot can unload on them while their regen is turned off (or unload on you so the damage transfers.)
Mhm. If you've been hit with 1 point of an evil weapon, you might as well have been attacked with a full hit from an evil weapon. The 1/2 HD Solar likely has more HP than you do, anyway.

Psyren

2014-04-09, 02:12 PM

Yeah, but I can't hire an NPC cleric without an NPC cleric. This is something I can do myself.

Right, and that's why it's strong/useful. But you often won't have 12+ hours to putter around in the field, and if you do your campaign is pretty much at a standstill anyway; ergo I don't consider it to be broken.

Before hand? I though I would just carve a crappy, ambiguous sculpture and call it a day. *shrugs*.

"Ambiguous?" Careful now, you might get a planetar or griffon instead :smalltongue:

(Or the spell might just fail if you don't have a sculpture of the target.)

Snowbluff

2014-04-09, 02:39 PM

Right, and that's why it's strong/useful. But you often won't have 12+ hours to putter around in the field, and if you do your campaign is pretty much at a standstill anyway; ergo I don't consider it to be broken.
*nods* It's definitely a down time spell.

I think the spell was supposed to be used for infiltration. I've never tried, though.

"Ambiguous?" Careful now, you might get a planetar or griffon instead :smalltongue:

(Or the spell might just fail if you don't have a sculpture of the target.)

Note to self: Take ranks in Profession (Sculptor), Perform (Ice Carving), or Craft (Ice Sculpture).:smalltongue:

Vedhin

2014-04-09, 03:38 PM

Why, when you can walk around with it on all day long? Why wouldn't you, especially in the wilderness?

Most PF races have to sleep/trance.

Coidzor

2014-04-09, 06:42 PM

Right, and that's why it's strong/useful. But you often won't have 12+ hours to putter around in the field, and if you do your campaign is pretty much at a standstill anyway; ergo I don't consider it to be broken.

...You're not going to typically be casting 12 hour long spells in the field anyway, so I don't know why you started out with that as one of your assumptions. :smallconfused:

Soarel

2014-04-09, 11:13 PM

Summoners are banned in my group for fluff reasons. I think the class is incredibly stupid (seriously? pokemon in D&D?), and the Eidolon concept is basically a giant middle finger to my cosmology, which eliminates the "it's from another dimension/reality with its own planes" crap that so many other campaign settings pull. The fact they're broken as hell is just another reason for me to ban them.

Lord Vukodlak

2014-04-09, 11:28 PM

Coidzor

2014-04-09, 11:37 PM

How is it pokemon? anymore then the regular conjuration summon mosnter spells.

Broodmaster gets a set of Eidolons that grow with the Summoner, presumably. Otherwise it's more like... uh... Not Digimon, since there's no equivalent to Digivolving on the fly...

grarrrg

2014-04-09, 11:42 PM

Arbane

2014-04-10, 04:03 AM

Psyren

2014-04-10, 07:01 AM

...You're not going to typically be casting 12 hour long spells in the field anyway, so I don't know why you started out with that as one of your assumptions. :smallconfused:

Because people seem to think it's broken even though it has this very obvious/glaring limitation. It's not like Gate or even PA/PB.

Most PF races have to sleep/trance.

Parties tend to sleep in shifts, inside rope tricks etc.

Karoht

2014-04-10, 11:47 AM

Broodmaster gets a set of Eidolons that grow with the Summoner, presumably. Otherwise it's more like... uh... Not Digimon, since there's no equivalent to Digivolving on the fly...
Evolution Surge (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/evolution-surge)
and
Transmogrify (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/transmogrify)
say 'hello'

...except that Transmogrify takes an hour.
So the transformation sequence made from stock footage just takes a while, is all.

Slipperychicken

2014-04-10, 02:06 PM

...except that Transmogrify takes an hour.
So the transformation sequence made from stock footage just takes a while, is all.

So it's a DBZ transformation sequence.

Karoht

2014-04-10, 03:37 PM

So it's a DBZ transformation sequence.
/mindblown

Beowulf DW

2014-04-10, 03:56 PM

Evolution Surge (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/evolution-surge)
and
Transmogrify (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/transmogrify)
say 'hello'

...except that Transmogrify takes an hour.
So the transformation sequence made from stock footage just takes a while, is all.

Playing a Synthesist in a IRL game right now, and I have a standing agreement with my GM that I will only use this spell to make myself huge after saying "it's morphing time" to fight an especially large monster.

grarrrg

2014-04-10, 08:31 PM

Transmogrify (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/transmogrify)
say 'hello'

...except that Transmogrify takes an hour.
So the transformation sequence made from stock footage just takes a while, is all.

Evolutionist at level 12 can Transmogrify 1/day with a casting time of only 1 minute.
Perfect duration for a stock-footage-transformation-sequence.

Playing a Synthesist in a IRL game right now, and I have a standing agreement with my GM that I will only use this spell to make myself huge after saying "it's morphing time" to fight an especially large monster.

Technically speaking, none of the Evolution Surge powers can get you to Huge size. They all come with a line saying 'cannot be spent to upgrade an existing power' and Huge is an 'upgrade' of Large.
Enlarge Person works just fine for Large > Huge though.

I wholeheartedly agree on the "shout transformation phrase" though.

Beowulf DW

2014-04-10, 09:14 PM

Evolutionist at level 12 can Transmogrify 1/day with a casting time of only 1 minute.
Perfect duration for a stock-footage-transformation-sequence.

Technically speaking, none of the Evolution Surge powers can get you to Huge size. They all come with a line saying 'cannot be spent to upgrade an existing power' and Huge is an 'upgrade' of Large.
Enlarge Person works just fine for Large > Huge though.

I wholeheartedly agree on the "shout transformation phrase" though.

I'm already trying to work with the other players to figure out a way to enlarge my great sword and then launch it into the air an into the ground near me so it looks all dramatic.

grarrrg

2014-04-10, 09:44 PM

I'm already trying to work with the other players to figure out a way to enlarge my great sword and then launch it into the air an into the ground near me so it looks all dramatic.

OH! See if you can get some upgraded Gloves of Storing (the default ones only allow up to 20lbs.).
Make sure your Sword has the Flaming enchantment.
Keep your sword stored in your Gloves at all times. Don't even use it for normal combat.

Then, when things are looking bleak for the universe you, you yell FORM BLAZING SWORD, and proceed to go to town.

jjcrpntr

2014-04-10, 09:46 PM

And what stops Mr. Summoner from taking Leadership as well, and effectively playing THREE people?

Which is why in the pathfinder game I recently started running (first time DM, so far it's fun) I said they could go any class in the core or APG except summoner and they aren't allowed to take Leadership. Mostly because as a new DM i wanted to remove things that I think are overly complicated/confusing (leadership) and secondly I just think they are stupid.

Spore

2014-04-10, 10:58 PM

Spore

2014-04-10, 11:02 PM

Playing a Synthesist in a IRL game right now, and I have a standing agreement with my GM that I will only use this spell to make myself huge after saying "it's morphing time" to fight an especially large monster.

You're wrong here. The phrase is: "MAKE MY MONSTER GROOOW!" -Rita Repulsa

Beowulf DW

2014-04-10, 11:18 PM

OH! See if you can get some upgraded Gloves of Storing (the default ones only allow up to 20lbs.).
Make sure your Sword has the Flaming enchantment.
Keep your sword stored in your Gloves at all times. Don't even use it for normal combat.

Then, when things are looking bleak for the universe you, you yell FORM BLAZING SWORD, and proceed to go to town.

Behold, fellow Playgrounders, not only has he inspired my Barbarians, he even helps me to complete my summoner's transformation into Voltron.

You're wrong here. The phrase is: "MAKE MY MONSTER GROOOW!" -Rita Repulsa

But we're the good guys. I think.:smallfrown:

Slipperychicken

2014-04-10, 11:41 PM

But we're the good guys. I think.:smallfrown:

Remember those words the next time you find yourself kneeling over someones still-warm bloody corpse, unceremoniously rifling through his pockets, not a thought in your head except for whether you can palm and sell his jewelry without sharing the proceeds with your companions.

Killer Angel

2014-04-11, 07:56 AM

Remember those words the next time you find yourself kneeling over someones still-warm bloody corpse, unceremoniously rifling through his pockets, not a thought in your head except for whether you can palm and sell his jewelry without sharing the proceeds with your companions.

Why am I thinking to "The good, the bad and the ugly"? We are good... somehow. :smallwink:

Psyren

2014-04-11, 08:23 AM

All this "hate" for this beautiful class. I can't understand it. If you are prepared summons are not that hard to manage and your eidolon is basically a pumped up animal companion. If you should criticize a class for being too hard, it's the druid then. But you can't do that, the druid is an established standard among roleplayers.

The Druid was nerfed in PF though - and mind-bogglingly, the same philosophy they were trying to get away from by doing so was applied to the synthesist.

Three Summoner archetypes ended up banned in PFS play, compared to one for the druid. Clearly mistakes were made.

grarrrg

2014-04-11, 09:33 AM

Why am I thinking to "The good, the bad and the ugly"? We are good... somehow. :smallwink:

I was going to go more with "Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun" actually.

Three Summoner archetypes ended up banned in PFS play, compared to one for the druid. Clearly mistakes were made.

To be fair, two of those were banned more for "lots of pets > bog down the game", same reason as the Pack Lord.

And, in my opinion, Synthesist was banned more for rules headaches than for the stat dumping overpoweredness.

Snowbluff

2014-04-11, 09:43 AM

To be fair, two of those were banned more for "lots of pets > bog down the game", same reason as the Pack Lord.

And, in my opinion, Synthesist was banned more for rules headaches than for the stat dumping overpoweredness.

THis. Stat dumping isn't really overpowered in the Summoner's case.

Karoht

2014-04-11, 10:33 AM

Wow, a Summoner thread made it 5 pages an no one mentioned Gundolon yet? Weird.
Alchemist + Synthesist Summoner.
I've been told that takes the stat dumping/jacking and just cranks it right up to 11, but I haven't spent much time looking into Alchemists.

Snowbluff

2014-04-11, 10:43 AM

Alchemist? I thought Gundolon used Gunslinger. There's no need for an Alchemist Dip when arms are within your reach.

Karoht

2014-04-11, 11:02 AM

Alchemist? I thought Gundolon used Gunslinger. There's no need for an Alchemist Dip when arms are within your reach.
Upon re-reading my post, I can see why one would mistake that as one idea, rather than two.

Alch + Synth being one thing.

Gundolon being a separate thing. Seems like very summoner thread someone pops in with Gundolon. Much like every healing focused Oracle thread has someone pop in and mention the Oradin.

Psyren

2014-04-11, 12:10 PM

And, in my opinion, Synthesist was banned more for rules headaches than for the stat dumping overpoweredness.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one - given that PFS restricts players to point buy, stat dumping issues are even more pronounced there.

Gnaeus

2014-04-11, 12:51 PM

The Druid was nerfed in PF though - and mind-bogglingly, the same philosophy they were trying to get away from by doing so was applied to the synthesist.

Three Summoner archetypes ended up banned in PFS play, compared to one for the druid. Clearly mistakes were made.

But of course, PFS explicitly or implicitly bans most anything that allows long term minion creation or permanent effects. Saying that a Summoner is broken in PFS does not imply that it is broken in a campaign where the cleric is wandering around on a skeletal dragon or zombie hydra along with half a dozen skeletal giants (Controlled, rebuked, or animated) and a couple of planar allies he whistled up last week, with a WBL of 175% of normal based on the way he and the party wizard cooperated with craft wands, scribe scrolls and craft wondrous items. Thats not crazy high op shenanigans like adventuring from the astral plane or abusing spell-likes from simulacrum, thats basic core spells/feats utilized roughly as intended and likely to be allowed in any game where tier 1s aren't heavily nerfed from the start. Sure, if you nerf tier 1 casters to a small fraction of their power, Summoner looks pretty crazy by comparison.

Psyren

2014-04-11, 01:31 PM

Summoner is not banned in PFS, Gnaeus - only Broodmaster/Master Summoner (for the minion clog issue) and Synthesist (opinions why vary.)

Snowbluff

2014-04-11, 01:35 PM

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one - given that PFS restricts players to point buy, stat dumping issues are even more pronounced there.

I would like to point out that the PFS community (or at least a vocal minority) was very vocal and acted maliciously against stat dumping, despite most of them not realizing how little impact it has. I personally think the rules being vague is worse, but Paizo might have just given into the pressure.

Gnaeus

2014-04-11, 01:41 PM

Summoner is not banned in PFS, Gnaeus - only Broodmaster/Master Summoner (for the minion clog issue) and Synthesist (opinions why vary.)

Point still stands. Who cares what the cleric's strength/dex are when he is walking around behind a mobile wall of death with total HD of more than 6 times his level? I don't see how what PFS bans on a summoner (given how much normal core stuff they ban from other casters) is any indication of brokenness in a non PFS game.

If I had a high level of respect for Paizo and PFS's system mastery, the fact that vanilla summoner is allowed in play next to highly nerfed tier 1s would be an indication that summoner by itself is not broken. Failing that, it is at least important that the fact that they ban 3 Summoner archetypes is no indication that they are OP in a normal game.

Psyren

2014-04-11, 02:10 PM

Point still stands. Who cares what the cleric's strength/dex are when he is walking around behind a mobile wall of death with total HD of more than 6 times his level?

1) What would that be?
2) Whatever you mean, unlike an eidolon it is likely dispellable and not as long-lasting.

If I had a high level of respect for Paizo and PFS's system mastery, the fact that vanilla summoner is allowed in play next to highly nerfed tier 1s would be an indication that summoner by itself is not broken.

This is part of the problem I think you guys are having - you're approaching this from an assumption of system mastery when that is not really the case in practice.

Coidzor

2014-04-11, 02:54 PM

The Druid was nerfed in PF though - and mind-bogglingly, the same philosophy they were trying to get away from by doing so was applied to the synthesist.

Three Summoner archetypes ended up banned in PFS play, compared to one for the druid. Clearly mistakes were made.

Summoner is not banned in PFS, Gnaeus - only Broodmaster/Master Summoner (for the minion clog issue) and Synthesist (opinions why vary.)

Which is it then? Is it that the Summoner is broken as you strongly imply with your "mistakes were made" quip or that the first two are barred because of the issue of the number of minions they can have on the board at one time?

I mean, sure, we can agree that the Synthesist doing what they wanted to prevent Druid from doing was clearly a bizarre choice on the part of whoever designed it and approved it, but that just makes Druids and Summoners even between the one druid archetype and synthesist summoner.

Psyren

2014-04-11, 03:12 PM

Which is it then? Is it that the Summoner is broken as you strongly imply with your "mistakes were made" quip or that the first two are barred because of the issue of the number of minions they can have on the board at one time?

I don't really understand why you're treating the base summoner and the synthesist as though they are identical when they play so differently in practice. Archetypes can either subtly or fundamentally change the way a class plays, and Synthesist falls in the latter category.

but that just makes Druids and Summoners even between the one druid archetype and synthesist summoner.

They're not even, not in the sense you appear to be implying. There's no druid that can replace all of its physical stats on a whim. Build on them, certainly (and at the opportunity cost of mental stat allocations) but not totally replace dumped ones.

Coidzor

2014-04-11, 03:22 PM

I don't really understand why you're treating the base summoner and the synthesist as though they are identical when they play so differently in practice. Archetypes can either subtly or fundamentally change the way a class plays, and Synthesist falls in the latter category.

Still doesn't address the thrust, which was why you seemed to be flip-flopping on whether Master Summoner/Broodmaster were broken in your post regarding PFS and their being banned from PFS. So I don't really feel I did that so much as hold up your seemingly contradictory statements and, apparently, insufficiently convey that you seemed to be inconsistent.

They're not even, not in the sense you appear to be implying. There's no druid that can replace all of its physical stats on a whim. Build on them, certainly (and at the opportunity cost of mental stat allocations) but not totally replace dumped ones.

1 Druid archetype banned from PFS for unspecified reasons. 1 Summoner archetype banned from PFS for unspecified reasons. 1 to 1. Even, Steven. That's what I was getting at there. You accounted for the other two, and yet still held up the Summoner's 3 banned archetypes to the Druid's 1 as some kind of cosmic imbalance. :smallconfused:

Psyren

2014-04-11, 03:47 PM

Still doesn't address the thrust, which was why you seemed to be flip-flopping on whether Master Summoner/Broodmaster were broken in your post regarding PFS and their being banned from PFS. So I don't really feel I did that so much as hold up your seemingly contradictory statements and, apparently, insufficiently convey that you seemed to be inconsistent.

They (i.e. Synthesist vs. the other two) were clearly banned for different reasons. How is that a "flip-flop?"

When I mentioned "3 were banned compared to the Druid's one" it was a reference to how little oversight/peer-review the class as a whole (or at the very least, Ultimate Magic) seemingly got.

Ssalarn

2014-04-11, 03:50 PM

Broodmaster and Master Summoner were specifically banned because PFS tries very hard to limit the number of bodies each character is moving around on their turn to keep play running smoothly and ensure that no one player is taking up too much of the play time.
Synthesist was banned because it came with like 3 pages of FAQs and people were still getting it wrong, or taking 15 minutes explaining to new GMs how everything worked. It was too complex for organized play.
PFS very rarely bans something due to power reasons. Generally if something gets banned in PFS it is due to it eating up more play time than it should, not fitting the setting and theme of the organized play world (which is why every non-gunslinger archetype that uses firearms is banned), or being too complex for an average GM to understand and make consistent rulings on.