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Olethros
2007-02-05, 01:06 PM
I have a semi-new player in my Campaign who I am worried is seriously hampering the parties ability to survive equivalent ECL encounters. The problem seems to stem from a lack of understanding of the game system, and a difficulty in assimilating direct tutelage.

For a little background the portrayed character is a 3wizard/2rouge with the stats to make for a solid cross class build. The rest of the party is comprised of a Ranger, Cleric and Bard. Currently the bard is a more reliable source of damage than the wiz/rouge, a fact that has spelt near party destruction on multiple occasions.

Trying to explain basics of tactics and use of abilities to the player have met with difficulties. So my question is this, how do you educate a player who will not take advise or suggestion, but wants to be a productive member of the group?

Thomas
2007-02-05, 01:09 PM
Well, the traditional methods of education are "telling them how it is" and "showing them how it is." Without some elaboration, it's impossible to answer more precisely than that.

Indon
2007-02-05, 01:11 PM
Show him Scorching Ray. Get him to realize how cool laser beams from his fingers is. Next, get him to realize how good hiding is.

If he can not on his own learn to combine the two (thus obtaining sneak attack damage on his scorching ray), then it isn't _your_ problem.

Generally, I find that synergy is addicting. You show a little bit, kind of a gateway drug, and before long they're hooked.

Brickwall
2007-02-05, 01:12 PM
Penalize him if he does something too stupid. Perhaps trying to take on a goblin on his own instead of sneak attacking the krenshar that Bob the Ranger is flanking will land him in a spot of trouble when the goblin proves tougher than he thought. Also, advise your other players to make tactics for him while they're planning, before he can say "I'm gonna..." That could keep him in line ofr a round or two, and soon he should catch on to the basic principles of spellcasting from the rear and setting up sneak attacks.

His lack of taking advice is probably due to lack of humility. He probably sees no reason he should defer to the more experienced and wise players. Give him a gentle nugde in the "maybe you should have done what they said" direction.

Sornas
2007-02-05, 01:16 PM
If he wants to contibute, then I think he needs to be willing to accept advice on how to do so.

But by the same token, everyone needs to be willing to work with him, if the fact that he isn't as optimized as everyone else has "spelt near party destruction on multiple occasions." Then perhaps the DM should ease up on the kinds of encounters he is throwing?

I understand that these ARE acceptable, "normal" challenges, but you are not playing with a "normal" player, you are playing with someone who is going to need time and practice, and is unwilling to take the "Crash course." Which, if you ask me, is just plain annoying, but you didn't ask that. :P

Telonius
2007-02-05, 01:20 PM
Between the Cleric and the Ranger, you should have quite a bit of damage output. It sounds like he's going for a sneaky-type magic user. Wiz3/Rogue2 is going to be problematic no matter what - not enough skills to be a completely effective skillmonkey, and not enough spells to be a completely effective wizard. I'd encourage him to pick one class or the other and stick with it. Effectively multiclassing is not something I would expect a novice D&D player to be able to do.

For tactics - exactly what is he doing (or not doing)? He shouldn't be up in melee for starters, and damage output alone is not what makes casters win D&D. You need to work with him on his spell selection. He should be casting things like Glitterdust, Web, Hypnotic Pattern, and Grease, so that the damage dealers (Ranger and Cleric) can finish off the enemies that fail on their save-or-suck spells. (If your Bard is doing more damage than your Cleric, you also have more problems than just the Wizard being poor tactics). He doesn't have enough extra d6's to make Scorching Ray worth it (EDIT: more than 1 per day anyway), though a few preparations of Ray of Frost will be nice.

Olethros
2007-02-05, 01:27 PM
(If your Bard is doing more damage than your Cleric, you also have more problems than just the Wizard being poor tactics).

No the bard is not out dishing either the cleric or the ranger, sory if that was unclear :smallredface:

Thomas
2007-02-05, 01:28 PM
Sneak attacking with spells at such a low level is almost impossible anyway. You need to deny your opponent's Dex bonus somehow (they have to be knocked prone, etc.) - I guess grease or something could do it - but other than that, you can only get anything out of them by casting them on the first round, before your opponents act.

A rogue/wizard is never going to be a damage-dealer. Never, ever. Going into Arcane Trickster, he can become a decent addition (not great; but you've got a ranger, and anything's better than a ranger).

Playing effective wizards takes a lot of rules-savvy and planning. Playing an effective rogue/wizard is much harder yet.

At these levels, though, the guy's tactics should be "hang back casting one or two spells, then maybe shoot things with a bow." It's not very complicated at all.

Leadfeathermcc
2007-02-05, 01:45 PM
I had the same problem with two of the players in my group.

One was my sister, the other was my wife. My sister has taken the time to read the rules. My wife has not, the weekly gaming session for her is about being social and interacting with me as much as it is about gaming. As wonderful as she is, me "telling her how to play" is also not the road to a good and healthy gaming relationship. ;)

She started playing a rogue. Dealing with hide checks, skill checks, flanking, and sneak attacks, as well as what weapon to use during combat was not fun for her. Also she slowed down the game considerablly dithering when making choices about what to do in combat.

I talked to her about what she enjoyed the most about the mehcanics of the game. What she really liked doing was running up and hitting things really hard. Yay! easy fix.

So we scrapped her character and I built her a slightly min/maxed female barbarian dwarf carrying the traditional two handed battle axe.

It allows her to do what she likes, the min/maxed aspect makes up for her sometimes suboptimal tactical choices. And the mechanical simplicity of her character allows her to focus on roleplaying a bit more.

Also now that she understands her role in combat, she is starting to work with the other players much better. Her barbarian and my sisters rogue have started to become a well oiled combat duo.

So I guess my advice is to start rules light players off with a rules light single class build and introduce new combat rules to them slowly only after they fully understand the basics of their character.

Person_Man
2007-02-05, 01:55 PM
The local academy sent many of their professors, accompanied by most of the student body, on its annual field trip to Largerichmagicalpeaceful City for supplies. On the way there, a charasmatic student decided that things would be a lot better and easier if they simply became bandits and took what they needed from the prosperous trade routes, rather then forking over what was left of his inhearitance to continue getting lessons from teachers who clearly don't understand how brilliant he is. So he convinced his friends to go along with his plans, and then killed the professors while they slept. Since then, they've been operating out of Large Forest, and over the past months their attacks on local caravans have been increasingly vicous and well coordinated.

The PC's are hired by the academy or Largerichmagicalpeaceful City to hunt down and stop the bandits by any means necessary.

When they do so, they encounter numerous Wizard/Rogues with poor Con (from malnutrition, or whatever in game reason you want - just as long as its generally easy for the PC's to kill them), who use intelligent tactics to fight the PC's.

Make a point of explaining what happens as it happens - Spot vs. Hide, the Suprise Round, being Flat-Footed, being Flanked, the coolness of various spells (Grease, Charm Person, Glitterdust, etc).

The newbish PC should be able to learn by watching.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-05, 01:56 PM
Just call him and explain how his character can use better abilities. Show him some better spells and rogue skills.
If he's just a newbie that didn't get the rules well yet, he just need someone to explain it to him.
Or you could make a NPC with a similar build. Make him show up and do some serious destruction. When the player's mouth fall, make the NPC offer to teach him how to do those things.
It'll spark his interest both in and out of character ;)

Shazzbaa
2007-02-05, 02:17 PM
Truthfully, if you've told him things that are good to do, and shown him how they work, I'm inclined to say that's all you can do. There's been excellent advice on how to go about doing these two things, but if it comes down to it and he won't TAKE your advice, then you've just gotta take him as he is.


If he's really trying and wants to learn, however, I'd say keep working with him; he'll catch on eventually. I'm not really sure which is the case here.

Dark
2007-02-05, 02:38 PM
You should also be careful not to try to run his character for him. That'll just make him annoyed, detached from his character, and stubborn.

Okay:
"You'd be more effective by hanging back and using ranged attacks, you're a bit too fragile to go in and try to stab things with your daggers."

Not okay:
DM: Naive player, you're up.
Cleric: Cast grease on those guys.
Ranger: No, the spellcaster! Take out the spellcaster first! Magic missile!
Bard: Or use your bow. You can still get sneak attack.
Ranger: Ok, the bow is better.
Naive player: Um...
Cleric: He shoots at their spellcaster.

I've seen both of these in play. They can both go wrong, but the second is far worse :) It can be important for the experienced players to shut up while the new player is thinking. Even giving options can be confusing and annoying, and can lead to the player choosing something that wasn't one of the options, just to have the feeling of playing their own character. Wait for them to ask questions.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-05, 02:47 PM
The main problem might be the player's character. As has been mentioned, a Rogue/Wizard takes a lot of experience to run correctly. Even if the character has the right stats to pull it off, the player might not have the knowledge. A Successful Rogue/Wizard needs to know all the flanking and dex-denial rules associated with Sneak Attacking, and at the same time needs to know how his spells work and where they can be used to maximum effect. He might be focusing on direct damage spells when he could be better helped by learning Invisibility or other utility spells.

He's also probably the most fragile member of the party. Based on his class breakdown he's probably got as little as 16 HP and no armor, which puts him in the high risk zone.

I'd ease off the encounters just a bit for now, until he levels up another time or two. Once he gets a few more spells under his belt (especially when he gets Wizard 5) he'll become a lot more productive. However, right now he's ineffective because a low-level Rogue/Wizard is by default ineffective.

Melrob
2007-02-05, 02:48 PM
What about the other players...have they suggested things to him 'in-game'? Seriously, roleplaying frustration can be fun and sometimes more effective than the DM hinting suggestions. =P

I agree that it does sound like pride, but eventually that pride is going to wear off when he sits after the session and considers his overall input/effectiveness. At that point he 'may' start to question things which is the perfect time to offer those suggestions again.

Okay he's got some buffing ability now and access to the likes of see invisibility and a host of other useful spells with his three levels of mage but really he should start focusing on one or the other...depending on his stats and desire. There's a high level mage/rogue in our group who'll never cast 8th level or higher spells and while he regrets it a bit...he's still a very mobile, crafty, useful player who's input is greatly desired. (but he has the experience to be all that)

Be patient, experience, we all know, is the best teacher and he doesn't have that yet. New players are daunted, expectant, brash...they're alot of things until they start the learning process.

Given time...and a couple of deaths he'll quickly buckle up and realise what he wants and what is possible don't always go hand in hand.

Person_Man
2007-02-05, 04:11 PM
You should also be careful not to try to run his character for him. That'll just make him annoyed, detached from his character, and stubborn.

Okay:
"You'd be more effective by hanging back and using ranged attacks, you're a bit too fragile to go in and try to stab things with your daggers."

Not okay:
DM: Naive player, you're up.
Cleric: Cast grease on those guys.
Ranger: No, the spellcaster! Take out the spellcaster first! Magic missile!
Bard: Or use your bow. You can still get sneak attack.
Ranger: Ok, the bow is better.
Naive player: Um...
Cleric: He shoots at their spellcaster.

I've seen both of these in play. They can both go wrong, but the second is far worse :) It can be important for the experienced players to shut up while the new player is thinking. Even giving options can be confusing and annoying, and can lead to the player choosing something that wasn't one of the options, just to have the feeling of playing their own character. Wait for them to ask questions.

I've seen this as well. It's when I remind players that talking is a free action that may only take place during your turn in normal initiative order, and that its limited by DM discretion.

Black Hand
2007-02-05, 05:11 PM
:smallconfused: Hmmm, you know if you've already given him the ins and outs of what a wiz/rog could do and he still doesn't get it. Perhaps you could "show" him the potential, and nothing gets the point across when you easily kick your own a$$.

What I mean is perhaps sometime in the gaming future, add in a particular encounter that would result with a special version of a "mirror of Opposition" and have this particular character targeted, and see to the best of your abilities on how this "clone" can give the party a bit of a challenge and hopefully opening the eyes of the player of what he could possibly achieve.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-05, 05:19 PM
:smallconfused: Hmmm, you know if you've already given him the ins and outs of what a wiz/rog could do and he still doesn't get it. Perhaps you could "show" him the potential, and nothing gets the point across when you easily kick your own a$$.

What I mean is perhaps sometime in the gaming future, add in a particular encounter that would result with a special version of a "mirror of Opposition" and have this particular character targeted, and see to the best of your abilities on how this "clone" can give the party a bit of a challenge and hopefully opening the eyes of the player of what he could possibly achieve.
Gotta second this idea. Although instead of the Mirror of Opposition, I'd make it some kind of NPC that mirrors his abilities. Reason being, the Mirror is kind of blunt and impersonal. On the other hand, an opposed NPC (not even necessarily a bad guy) can be presented as a real bad***, thereby serving as a role model for the character in question.

Douglas
2007-02-05, 05:37 PM
I've seen this as well. It's when I remind players that talking is a free action that may only take place during your turn in normal initiative order, and that its limited by DM discretion.
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#speak)

LotharBot
2007-02-05, 05:48 PM
It seems like the best thing for your naive player would be to let him play something easier. Wizards are probably the toughest class for new players, and dualclassing with rogue makes it just that much more complicated. Even something like a straight sorcerer would make a lot more sense.

If you really must stick with the dual-classed rogue/wiz, be prepared for him to be less dangerous than the same character played by an experienced player. And give him examples to watch and learn from -- not in the "your character does this" way, but in the "the enemy bandit rogue/sorc does this" way.

RandomNPC
2007-02-05, 08:41 PM
my lil bro in law is simmilar, he loves the idea of a magic hurling legendary mage, but he just loves hitting things with big weapons.

so we played an evil game (read PvP ok) and now he's looking for a way to die off. everyone was so annoyed by him they knocked him out and left him with some kobolds.

Thomas
2007-02-06, 12:17 AM
I still don't see any actual details about the problem...

Person_Man
2007-02-06, 12:34 AM
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#speak)


In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.

I would rule that arguing at length out of character about tactics while combat is occuring wouldn't be a free action.

And it doesn't really help new PC's. If a new PC doesn't know what to do, they should just describe what they want to do to the DM, and then the DM can tell them to roll the dice and describe what happens. After combat, everyone else can be a Monday morning quarterback. But during combat, when you have a mixed group of experienced and inexperienced players, I've found it very helpful to limit talking during combat to your turn in the Initiative, and only to a few sentences.

PnP Fan
2007-02-06, 02:03 AM
I think we've all experienced this at one time or another, from one angle or another. You've got a number of options, some of which you've already exploited. You can a) teach him (tried and failed), b) show him, either by kicking his butt, or demonstrating via npc how his character could be used, c) loan him a copy of the PG, and let him read it. Not eveyone takes to being instructed during "play time" how to use their "play time", and that may be why he isn't listening to instruction. He may not recognize it as "instruction" and may think you and your friends are just "ordering him around". Without a lot of contextual details, it's hard to say. Let him read on his own and figure it out, then he'll understand why you guys are telling him to do certain things.
Just keep in mind a couple of things: 1) it's just a game, and not worth losing a friend over. 2) not everyone that games has a head for math (though most seem to) and 3) as the GM you've got to be the "adult" a lot of the time (not sure how old you are relative to your players, but you just need to have patience with him).

Elliot Kane
2007-02-06, 02:11 AM
I think the main problem is, as others have said, that the character is simply too complicated for a newbie player.

Would I be right in thinking the Wizard/Rogue was created to fill the holes in the character group rather than to suit the newb? If so, that was a huge mistake. From the sound of what you describe, his tactical sense amounts to 'hit it!' so he'd be best suited to a tank, at least while he's learning.

As for challenge ratings - you need to set encounters to suit the abilities of your players, not their characters. A really good group can punch well above their supposed rating, and an inexperienced group will likely punch below. I'd suggest giving easier challenges for a while to help your newb settle in.

Tormsskull
2007-02-06, 07:57 AM
I'm guessing you're playing mostly hack n slash? Maybe you could jot down a few notes on a piece of paper called "Tactics 101". Explain to this player what might be effective and such.

If you were playing a more role-playing type of game I'd say just go with the flow. You don't have to approach combat situations with strick adherence to ELs and such.

Plus, maybe this player will eventually catch on, or maybe they are having fun playing the character as they are. If that is the case, I'd hesitate to label it as a problem.

Olethros
2007-02-06, 11:07 AM
Thanks everybody, I apreciate all the perspectives. In the next couple of games Ill try some examples, after that I'm probly just gonna let things run there course.

To answer a few questions, the character was created as a wizard because the player likes magic, she multi-classed into rouge because she got hit by a trap once. I generally don't regulate how my players level so long as they are using the core PhB, and at the time thought the player knew much more than it turned out she did (it's the first time I had run for this group and was told she was experienced). Next time she makes a character Ill be hevily suggesting a "fighter" type, I think many of you are right and she may enjoy it more, and it's nice to play something different frome time to tome IMO.

Thanks again.

Vince Klortho
2007-02-06, 11:21 AM
Personally I don't think that tactics are the end-all, be-all of this game. I hate to sound like a geezer, but I have been playing for twenty five years, and the rules have completely changed many times since I started, but what really hasn't changed is the core of the game: the stories, the RP, the good times around a table eating pizza with your friends. Years ago I played with a player who would always come up with these competely ridiculous characters - they were very well-thought out, but never fit in with the rest of the party. At the time, we were all like, "why can't Josh just FIT IN?" Years later, it turns out that his kooky characters and outrageous antics are some of the things that we all remember most fondly.

I guess I would just say try to keep everything in perspective: it's a game, not a job. If your party doesn't deliver the optimal amount of damage in a given round, it's really not the end of the world. What might seem like a major problem to you as a DM might not really be that bad.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-06, 11:38 AM
Play through it, eventually he'll A) get tired of his character's weaknesses, B) get killed, or C) figure out his niche and become a productive member of the party. If you try to make too many accomadations for his character, it won't be a challenge for everyone else. Hard encounters help players learn, easy ones keep them the same. While a DM shouldn't go out of his way to wipe out the party, babying them will only get them so far. You have to present your players with increasingly diverse challenges, otherwise the game gets stale. The danger of losing a character is part of the fun.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-06, 11:56 AM
I have to say, let the player play what the player wants to play. Telling somebody "No, you're not skilled enough to handle a wizard/rogue, here, play fighter" is going to come across as tactless and insulting. If the player's having fun, it doesn't matter if she's not fighting optimally. If she's NOT having fun, maybe that'll give her an incentive to improve her strategy.

If the main problem is that the other players aren't having fun because this one character isn't as uber as they are...they need to grow up, to put it bluntly.

Leadfeathermcc
2007-02-06, 12:41 PM
I have to say, let the player play what the player wants to play.

I do not think anyone was suggesting not doing that. At least I was not. What I was suggesting was to find out what the person likes about the game, and steer them towards a rules light version of what they like.

If they really like the idea of a mage, suggest a spontaneous caster. Something with a smaller spell list, that does not take a lot of preplanning to be effective. Maybe even a warlock. "I blast 'em, oh and then I can do these other 4 things whenever I want", is much easier to learn than a wizard, and you can still introduce them to spells one at a time via scrolls and UMD.

If they like melee, suggest a fighter or barbarian with cleave and great cleave, or some other simple feat chain. "I hit em and when they drop I get to hit another" is easier to learn than a melee character who relies on feints and making your opponent lose dex to get good damage.

By all means teach them the all the rules but only after they grasp the fundamentals of their character.

Please note I am approaching this thread after having introduced two new players to the game neither of whom had ever roleplayed before. Both began with no knowledge of the game at all, outside of "our husbands spend 8 hours a week in the basement, laughing and rolling dice". I also had to teach them in such a way that they kept enjoying the game and I did not come across as a rude SOB, because I like my wife and I do not like sleeping on the couch. :smalltongue:

I am teaching my 11 year old algebra this year. To do so I start with the basics and only move on to a new concept once he grasps the previous. I suggest the same when teaching the D&D rules to a person.

Artanis
2007-02-06, 01:25 PM
If you don't mind making an exception and going outside the PHB for this situation, I know from personal experience that a Warmage is a good way for a newbie to get a handle on the magic system. By limiting his spells to ways to blow stuff up, it lets the player concentrate on learning the basic mechanics and bookkeeping of being a spellcaster without ALSO having to deal with all the strategy, planning, and outside-the-box thinking that can give the Wizard and Sorcerer classes such a steep learning curve.

PnP Fan
2007-02-06, 07:48 PM
Just out of curiosity how bad is the level of aggravation at the table? The original post made it sound pretty bad, but perhaps not yet at the breaking point. Depending on the interpersonal issues, you really have the opportunity to "make or break" this player. I have a general attitude that I take things pretty light on new players. I try not to fudge dice for them, but I'll let them get away with things that I don't let experienced players get away with (as easily ;-). As time passes, and they get to understand the rules better, then I'll start making things a little more difficult (more reasonable DC's, more low level monsters for the party to wade through, higher level monsters react to tactics more than me looking for an excuse not to kill a newbie for being a newbie, etc. . ). After all, it is a game, and games are supposed to be fun. :-)

Hurlbut
2007-02-08, 12:47 PM
Something I read the other day, the Dragon magazine, wouldn't the weaponlike spells and spells that deal damage including ability damage have sneak attack apply to them if their targets were within 30 feet?

Olethros
2007-02-08, 01:23 PM
Am I correct that only spells with "To-Hit" roll can be sneak attacked?

Hurlbut
2007-02-08, 01:26 PM
Am I correct that only spells with "To-Hit" roll can be sneak attacked?
That pretty much define a weaponlike spell, don't you think? :smallyuk: