How to complain without being a d bag?

[SMWallace]

I just started playing D&D, and I'm part of a campaign that's been going on twice a week for about three months, and earlier today we reached what was supposed to be the finishing fight against the BBEG, a red dragon. I was playing my Paladin as usual, and having just gotten my fire resistance cloak and holy sword as gifts from a cleric of this dragon god called Bahamut, I felt up to the challenge. I knew it would be difficult and I might die, but no matter what I was sure it would be epic.

So we busted through his half-dragon troll guards, but the rest of the party stopped to hold off a blue dragon and told me and the ranger to go forward. Knowing that the dragon was outmatched by the party four levels ago, we all figured it would be evenly matched-ish if the two of us went, and the dragon was about to do a ritual to accelerate its aging, so we went ahead to try to stop it.

So we get in, and I give a speech and then combat starts. And instead of a cool battle like I was expecting of mighty red dragon going tooth and claw and breath against the holy-blade-wielding paladin and the mighty archer, the dragon immediately flies up and starts spamming spells to break the ranger's bow, and once it succeeds, it just circles around shooting spells at us and occasionally breathing fire until I died and the ranger took my cloak and ran.

So, I'm a little miffed. That wasn't a cool or fair fight, and we couldn't do anything. Like, I get that he was trying to play the monster smart, but that wasn't something he did the other two times we fought that dragon, and it made the game a lot less fun for me abd the ranger.

So I wanted to talk to him about how that made things less fun for me, but since he didn't break any rules I don't want to sound like a d bag. I think we both just expected different stuff from the game or something, but I didn't find that cool, and I wanted to talk to him about it out of game, I just need help knowing how to go about it. Can you guys help me out?

[HammeredWharf]

You could tell the DM you prefer more in-your-face encounters. Don't tell him he did something wrong, because he didn't. Flying and breathing fire is the default dragon behavior. I've always wondered why many players expect them to sit tight and fight in melee.

To avoid such situations in the future, get decent knowledge skills and ask the DM about the monsters. If he's fair, he'll tell you their default tactics on success.

[The Oni]

Now, I don't know the precise details of the campaign so I can't say for sure, but it sounds like the GM was in the right here. Dragons are really strong opponents and generally pretty smart; their hoards make for absurd rewards so they tend to be stronger than their CR suggests; moreover he knew you had a sweet holy sword and had fought you before.

Also he wasn't *a* dragon he was *the* dragon. A BBEG dragon better be smart or he's not much of a boss.

[FabulousFizban]

So, I'm a little miffed. That wasn't a cool or fair fight, and we couldn't do anything. Like, I get that he was trying to play the monster smart, but that wasn't something he did the other two times we fought that dragon, and it made the game a lot less fun for me abd the ranger.

I hate to say this but, it was a dragon, they don't fight fair. In addition, if you had fought this dragon twice before, isn't it fair to assume it would have learned from it's past mistakes? It's awful when you end up in a fight like that, but sometimes that is how the creature would battle you.

[BWR]

I have to agree with the rest. You tried taking on a dragon in his lair. They are smart, they are old and experienced, they are knowledgeable and they play to their strengths and go for their enemies' weaknesses. The dragon changing his tactics is not a valid complaint at all. The dragon has been up against you twice before and seen at least some of what you can do. A melee character isn't a danger as long as he can fly, and a ranged character is no threat without a ranged weapon. Dragons are dangerous in melee and while full- attacking but standing still and eating full attacks is generally a stupid move on their part. You ran into one of the biggest problems facing melee characters in D&D - they aren't really any use against fliers. In the DM's defense your party should have taken this into account and stocked up on potions of fly and similar stuff.

It seems like you have a disconnect between what you expect the DM to provide and what the DM thinks he should provide. If you want the sort of game where people can be smart enough to think up a magical ritual to destroy all of reality and none of the gods can stop him yet he doesn't think to protect himself against a guy with a sword, that's fine. If the DM wants to run the sort of game where enemies play to their strengths, try to shore up their weaknesses and the players have to be even smarter, that's fine too. just make sure everyone is on the same page. As I see it, you have two options: one, just accept that you'll have to change your tactics against certain enemies and be prepared for anything. Two, talk to your DM and see if he and the rest of the party are willing to play the game the way you want. If neither of those are acceptable, you'll just have to find another group that plays the way you like.

[Coidzor]

Now, I don't know the precise details of the campaign so I can't say for sure, but it sounds like the GM was in the right here. Dragons are really strong opponents and generally pretty smart; their hoards make for absurd rewards so they tend to be stronger than their CR suggests; moreover he knew you had a sweet holy sword and had fought you before.

Also he wasn't *a* dragon he was *the* dragon. A BBEG dragon better be smart or he's not much of a boss.

No, he can't be in the right, he committed the cardinal sin of splitting the party and then sent half of them against what he had identified OOC as the final battle, and if he lied OOC about the game he committed another sin. :smalltongue:

Plus the existence of a thunder stealing/distracting element in the form of that there Blue Dragon what split the party when he was setting them up for the final confrontation is at least half a sin right on its own.

Then there's the bit where he did this against new players or at least a new player without actually having explained how dragons and the game work, which is another 2-3 sins depending upon how new the rest of the players are.

[The Oni]

No, he can't be in the right, he committed the cardinal sin of splitting the party and then sent half of them against what he had identified OOC as the final battle, and if he lied OOC about the game he committed another sin. :smalltongue:

Plus the existence of a thunder stealing/distracting element in the form of that there Blue Dragon what split the party when he was setting them up for the final confrontation is at least half a sin right on its own.

Then there's the bit where he did this against new players or at least a new player without actually having explained how dragons and the game work, which is another 2-3 sins depending upon how new the rest of the players are.

Seems like the party split themselves (against DRAGONS no less). Honestly, if they didn't think they could take the Blue Dragon and felt the need to "hold him off" and send the other two ahead I don't know how they figured they could take that dragon's boss.

[Coidzor]

Seems like the party split themselves (against DRAGONS no less).

Honestly, if they didn't think they could take the Blue Dragon and felt the need to "hold him off" and send the other two ahead I don't know how they figured they could take that dragon's boss.

And the DM threw the dragon at them that caused the split against new players, so right back at you.

Re-read the OP, they felt they could take him because they had him "outmatched" 4 levels prior. So either the DM was deliberately deceiving new players or he was allowing them to deceive themselves for his own petty amusement, either way, there's something wrong here.

[The Oni]

That's stupid. If the players can get stronger, so can the dragon. And it would be silly for the dragon NOT to get stronger if he was beaten by the players already.

Moreover, it isn't like this is an obscure D&D splatbook monster; it's a dragon, and dragons have never been known for being easy pickin's in any medium (except maybe Fire Emblem) least of all D&D. The DM can't control how players will react, but presumably considering this was an intelligent dragon with other dragon minions I don't think the DM was expecting them to split up when they met the blue.

[Tengu_temp]

Of course the "git gud scrub, RPGs are all about overcoming tactical challenges" brigade immediately charges in to look down on who they see as the softcore noob. Figures.

Not everyone has fun the same way. The OP clearly didn't have fun with that fight and it just felt frustrating for him. RPGs are about having fun. Ergo, this wasn't a good fight and he should talk to the DM about it.

And how to complain? Be polite, but firm. Be constructive. Be honest. Make sure to show that you have nothing against the DM in person, you just didn't have fun with the way he ran this fight. Don't be passive-aggressive. Good OOC communication is the key to a good session, so make sure that this communication stays good.

[Coidzor]

That's stupid. If the players can get stronger, so can the dragon. And it would be silly for the dragon NOT to get stronger if he was beaten by the players already.

Moreover, it isn't like this is an obscure D&D splatbook monster; it's a dragon, and dragons have never been known for being easy pickin's in any medium (except maybe Fire Emblem) least of all D&D. The DM can't control how players will react, but presumably considering this was an intelligent dragon with other dragon minions I don't think the DM was expecting them to split up when they met the blue.

Stupid is as stupid does. New players are not exactly renowned for being wise, but as far as teachable moments this was evidently not a successful one, nor was it likely to be from what we know of the set up. So, yeah. :smalltongue: Mistakes were made, all around.

And yet the DM presented them with the choice. To new players. Whee.

[Kalmageddon]

"New players" is not an excuse, you were against something that flies, how were you hoping to kill the beast if you didn't have any means to fly as well, or without bringing some heavy ranged firepower?
How did the previous encounter went? Did the dragon have room to use its wings but didn't?

I'm just wondering how is it possible to prepare for a fight against a flying creature and forget the fact that it's a flying creature. Even if you don't know the game at all that should be a source of concern, it's simple common sense.
Right?

Now, if your problem is that the GM used tactics that you felt were "cheap" that's another matter and you certanly should talk to him about it. At the very least he shouldn't have let you go into the fight completly unprepared, that's for sure. I would have opted to give some OOC advice if I saw my players prepare for a fight against a flying creature by totally overlooking the fact that it can fly.

[Mr Beer]

I generally avoid doing this kind of thing but that's because my players are tactically deficient and I make allowances for them. Realistically a clever tough flying firebreathing spellcasting opponent will fly, spellcast and firebreath you to death, especially if you kicked his arse for him in hand-to-hand last time. In this situation I would likely DM it much like this, although I would try to give you a chance for survival, either via surrender or retreat. And maybe I would have warned you ahead of time that dragons don't give second chances.

You (and the rest of the party) should have planned this better. Also, was retreat impossible? Because running away would be an option as well.

[some guy]

So I wanted to talk to him about how that made things less fun for me, but since he didn't break any rules I don't want to sound like a d bag. I think we both just expected different stuff from the game or something, but I didn't find that cool, and I wanted to talk to him about it out of game, I just need help knowing how to go about it. Can you guys help me out?

I think you should just say what you said to us in this quote. That's all quite reasonable.

[The Oni]

And yet the DM presented them with the choice. To new players. Whee.

Very much not an excuse. If the DM doesn't present them with challenges and tough decisions, then in their next campaign someone else will, and they will be totally unprepared because the last campaign was a breeze.

I mean, we're not talking about Spheres of Annihilation in statues' mouths here. The foe was very clearly shown to them, and it's not like it just bumrushed them for a TPK either. It killed one party member who tried to fight a flying foe with a sword. They had a dragon cornered and it did what any evil intelligent creature would do - it fought dirty.

[Arbane]

Was this fight indoors, or outside? Because if it was indoors, a dragon not having enough room to fly is a reasonable assumption, even in D&D.


I was expecting of mighty red dragon going tooth and claw and breath against the holy-blade-wielding paladin and the mighty archer

You poor, naive chump. Yes, that's how it would go in any fantasy movie or book published by anyone except WoTC, but D&D sucks for emulating fantasy fiction. In D&D dragons are casters, and magic always beats melee, so of course the dragon will fly away and spam spells. :smallannoyed:

[Coidzor]

Very much not an excuse. If the DM doesn't present them with challenges and tough decisions, then in their next campaign someone else will, and they will be totally unprepared because the last campaign was a breeze.

Because the best way to learn is from a wipe that potentially poisons them against the DM or the game.


"New players" is not an excuse,

New players have to be taught to play, generally, and thus should not be expected to be performing at full competency. The alternative is to just be a **** to them for no constructive reason.

This is a pretty basic, self-evident point. :smallconfused:

[The Oni]

Because the best way to learn is from a wipe that potentially poisons them against the DM or the game.

New players have to be taught to play, generally, and thus should not be expected to be performing at full competency. The alternative is to just be a **** to them for no constructive reason.

This is a pretty basic, self-evident point. :smallconfused:

Except he didn't wipe the party, he killed a player. He killed a single player, who could have fled (as the ranger did), had already fought through other encounters, and tried to attack an intelligent, casting, flying foe with only a sword. The adventure isn't over, the party isn't in ruins. One guy died. That happens in fantasy stories, especially against wicked-tough foes and especially at the end of the adventure. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're making this out to be some Rocks Fall Everyone Dies nonsense and it's not that at all all.

I'll be honest; if I went into a game and challenged a dragon with a holy sword (gifted by Bahamut no less? Like, the antithesis of evil dragons?) and the evil dragon sat there on the ground and just swiped at me until I cut him in half? I'd be mad. I'd feel gypped out of a fight.

[2E Phoinex]

I don't mean to patronize, but since you note that you are very new to DnD you may find that as you get a little more experience you'll want your dragons to be played that way. It may very well be that the only way you have fun is just through epic man to man all-out-fight encounters, but with all due respect, that is something of a shallow way to feel about the game. If I were your DM I'd ask you to humor me and go along with the "realism" of the dragon's tactics and accept them as a challenge to which you must respond. Your party seems to have made a lot of terrible mistakes that from my perspective could only have ended in defeat- this is OK you guys are new- but you may actually find that you enjoy the game when you are met with challenges like the dragon that require an unconventional strategy, or perhaps even retreating to fight another day.

Essentially, what I'm saying is try to think on that same level as the DM for a while and see if you enjoy it. If in the end you do just want that epic battle you described and you can't have fun the other way then that's cool and you should explain that to your dungeon master, but you are doing yourself a disservice if you don't give his way a shot.

[Tengu_temp]

Very much not an excuse. If the DM doesn't present them with challenges and tough decisions, then in their next campaign someone else will, and they will be totally unprepared because the last campaign was a breeze.


Oh wow. You're talking about this as if it was some sort of DND school of hard knocks whose purpose is to prepare you for the rough reality of RPG life.

RPGs are entertainment. They're pretendy fun time games. They're about having a good time. Different people have different ideas of good time. Not everyone likes their game to be about tactical challenges and preparation. If you force such situations on them, you won't "teach" them, you will just annoy them.

[The Oni]

Oh wow. You're talking about this as if it was some sort of DND school of hard knocks whose purpose is to prepare you for the rough reality of RPG life.

RPGs are entertainment. They're pretendy fun time games. They're about having a good time. Different people have different ideas of good time. Not everyone likes their game to be about tactical challenges and preparation. If you force such situations on them, you won't "teach" them, you will just annoy them.

...Right, but we don't know for sure if that's what's going on here. The OP hasn't responded since, well, the OP, so let's let him speak for himself before we go putting ranks in Jump (to conclusions) here.

...And again, if this is more of a dramatic roleplay-y kind of adventure (which is fine, and in no way badwrongfun) - it's still a dragon. And the OP even went in with the expectation that he might die. That happens in dramatic fantasy stories.

[Tengu_temp]

The OP went in, expecting a head-to-toe heroic melee fight with the dragon. You know, like the two times they fought the same dragon before. He wouldn't have minded if he died in such a battle, because that at least means he had a cool death. Instead, he was cheesed to death, by an enemy who never used such tactics before. He has all the rights to be annoyed about this.

[SMWallace]

Okay, I'll answer what points seem to have been asked for answers to, and if I miss something, let me know.

Minor nitpick, the Cleric gave me the shiny weapon, we aren't nearly high enough level to be getting gifts from the gods themselves. I figure that's the realm of like, level 16 characters or so, but that assumption doesn't really matter.

Anyway, I'm not sure if I made it unclear in the opening post, but the whole party split and me going without extra magical backup was pretty necessary. We didn't exactly have free time for fighting his dragon buddy and then moving forward as a group because then the Red we'd be facing would have probably finished aging itself to, like, a Great Wyrm. I'm not putting money on us beating a dragon that could kill me in a single full attack and cast spells several spell levels higher than our casters.

Yeah, we were indoors. The ceiling wasn't all that high, even, DM said it was thirty feet or so, and it was a hallway for the most part so I figured it wouldn't fly since it didn't have room to circle. As for escaping, well, we decided for the first few rounds that it would probably land after buffing itself or some other thing dragons do and we didn't want it to just go back to its ritual. Then it succeeded in breaking the ranger's bow with whatever spell it was using and he ran, with me following two rounds later, but... Well, it was a long hallway, and the dragon's move action takes it further than I could go in a full round.

Yeah.

Last thing to add: the dragon thoroughly beat me in specific four levels ago, though I put up an almost-decent struggle (if I do say so myself). We managed to overpower it only because they focused heavy fire on him while I held him back (which in part led me to the idea that he would land once the ranger's weapon was gone, which is why I didn't run alongside the ranger at first in case you were wondering). He also acted really vain at the time, eager to show his might to the lesser beings, so while I had never really considered the idea that a dragon would just never land anyway, it kind of makes even less sense now.

People act like it's common sense for flying creatures to take advantage of their flight, but especially with dragons there's several thousands of years worth of mythological and fantasy books (and more recently movies) going against that idea full-force.

... Now that I've said all that, I'm going to denounce myself by saying that it's all pretty meaningless anyway. The point of this thread was to say I didn't have fun, and to ask how I should go about telling me DM that without being a jerkwad. So... That question still stands, I guess, and I thank those of you who responded to it.

[Knaight]

It may very well be that the only way you have fun is just through epic man to man all-out-fight encounters, but with all due respect, that is something of a shallow way to feel about the game. If I were your DM I'd ask you to humor me and go along with the "realism" of the dragon's tactics and accept them as a challenge to which you must respond.

This is highly genre dependent. There are genres wherein a toe to toe fight is simply more appropriate - see basically any dragon in Arthurian myth. There are others wherein toe to toe fights are something done by stupid people, such as more intrigue heavy political fantasy. Calling this shallow is ludicrous, particularly in the context of a game in which there is far more than just fighting.

[The Oni]

This changes things. If the ceiling is only thirty feet high it seems unlikely that the dragon could fly with any alacrity (unless he was a *really* young dragon, in which case you'd probably have beaten him without too much trouble anyway). Either the DM didn't do the research or was really cheesing it up.

[Airk]

Wow, but this thread is full of a bunch of really obnoxious people. Holy crap.

"I didn't have fun and my expectations weren't met" is met with "STFU and learn to play, newb"? Really? This is the best our hobby has to offer? Good thing we're all mature adults here.

Let's try to stick to the actual question, shall we? The answer is, basically, "Gently, and like an adult." Something like:

"Hey, can we talk about that dragon fight last session?"
"I ended up feeling kindof let down; I went in expecting a really awesome showdown, and you... kinda didn't let that happen, so it was pretty disappointing to me."
"We're not competing here, so I just thought I should let you know."

And just kinda...go from there. Just remember not to CRITICIZE. Phrase everything in non-confrontational terms and talk about how stuff made you feel. And, well, if he doesn't get it, he's not much of a GM.

[2E Phoinex]

This is highly genre dependent. There are genres wherein a toe to toe fight is simply more appropriate - see basically any dragon in Arthurian myth. There are others wherein toe to toe fights are something done by stupid people, such as more intrigue heavy political fantasy. Calling this shallow is ludicrous, particularly in the context of a game in which there is far more than just fighting.

Forgive my diction: shallow was perhaps a poor choice of words due to its negative connotations. I don't mean to suggest that always wanting toe-to-toe fighting is silly or a dumb way to play; rather, I am saying that there is a lot in the system that lends itself to more tactical combat and I think it's important to give those play styles a chance before you decide it isn't what you wanted out of the game. And if at the end of the day you really do just want to keep your combats simple- no harm done.

30ft ceiling huh? That detail really does change my view of the situation and your DM may in fact have gone against the rules. I play 2nd ed. so sorry if my rules aren't applicable but red dragons are listed as Class C flyers and they can't just hover in the air. They must be moving at half their movement rate or more to maintain flight. If the room was that small it would be difficult to justify the dragon flying out of reach the whole time.

Any way, on to your question Mr. OP! since apparently our unfair, off topic, and uninformed criticisms of you didn't explain how to talk to your DM if you weren't having fun... my apologies by the way.

I'd say don't be squeamish about it and just talk to the guy. Ask him if he was experimenting in the episode with the dragons and try and see it from his side of the screen. Ask him why he likes to be the DM and what he gets out of the game that he makes possible for everyone else. It could be that he was getting a little bored with how he was running the combats and wanted to shake things up a bit. Get that conversation going then explain what you like in combat and be sure to talk about a specific time when you really had fun (DM's love to hear about the stuff that makes their players happy) At that point I'd say suggest that the group as a whole decide together how they want to play and how you can make sure everyone is entertained. I'd be willing to bet that in the end you can figure something out that works for the whole group. The group should always feel comfortable discussing ways to make the game better. Good luck I hope it all works out.

[SMWallace]

Well, now I feel like a villain. I didn't mean to say you were being unfair or rude or anything (though I won't deny that I think it went off-topic), just that it wasn't really answering my question. Thank you for the good luck wish, and sorry if I hurt your feels.

[2E Phoinex]

Well, now I feel like a villain. I didn't mean to say you were being unfair or rude or anything (though I won't deny that I think it went off-topic), just that it wasn't really answering my question. Thank you for the good luck wish, and sorry if I hurt your feels.

Just teasing bro. A forum post wouldn't hurt my feelings. Well, not unless it had frowny faces...

[Mr Beer]

Based on your second post, this sounds much more like a DM set up than my first reading of it.

Still as a general rule, I recommend you try to stack things in your favour with the bad guys.

As a party, use magic to scry out as much of the encounter map as possible.

Investigate your enemies ahead of time and buy specific countermeasures to their strengths. For example, if you know you are going against a flyer, get a couple of Potions of Flying or whatever. Sounds like you have some fire resistance anyway; against a red dragon I'd want as much as possible.

Hire meatshields to take the hits for you...create undead or build constructs or summon monsters; you should never find a pit trap by walking into it, one of your meatshields should be doing that for you.

These are comparatively trivial measures to take and can make life a lot easier.

[Vrock_Summoner]

Based on your second post, this sounds much more like a DM set up than my first reading of it.

Still as a general rule, I recommend you try to stack things in your favour with the bad guys.

As a party, use magic to scry out as much of the encounter map as possible.

Investigate your enemies ahead of time and buy specific countermeasures to their strengths. For example, if you know you are going against a flyer, get a couple of Potions of Flying or whatever. Sounds like you have some fire resistance anyway; against a red dragon I'd want as much as possible.

Hire meatshields to take the hits for you...create undead or build constructs or summon monsters; you should never find a pit trap by walking into it, one of your meatshields should be doing that for you.

These are comparatively trivial measures to take and can make life a lot easier.

Something about Paladins making undead or hiring people to possibly die for your safety rubs me the wrong way.

[Mr Beer]

Something about Paladins making undead or hiring people to possibly die for your safety rubs me the wrong way.

Sure, these are general things to do in D&D...I mean summoned Vrocks are useful but probably not ideal for our pally to be messing with.

[Vrock_Summoner]

Sure, these are general things to do in D&D...I mean summoned Vrocks are useful but probably not ideal for our pally to be messing with.

Touché, sir.

[oxybe]

the best way to complain is simply not to do so. relax before bringing it up and don't be confrontational about it, but rather give him feedback and honesty.

tell him "hey man, i'd like to get a better feel for what you expect from the campaign, the game and us players, because a dragon played that way against us, and particularly me, isn't really fun. as a melee guy who lacks the spells to reliably force the dragon down to facepunch level i can't really do much against an enemy that does stuff like that. when i came into this encounter i had certain expectations on how it would play out (describe it to him). i like gaming with you guys and while it sucks my character died and i don't mind rerolling a new one, i'd like to make sure we're both on the same page on what to expect from now on because that fight was kind of a downer for me."

as for the overall negativity towards the OP, it's really unwarranted. OP is new and D&D has a stupid learning curve at times but most DMs really aren't that excellent. most are mediocre... average. good game or encounter design generally calls for the game to telegraph certain concepts to the players (like say, the players seeing the dragon flying and swooping down for a kill/fighting at a distance and winning, so they know to at least prepare for it. alternatively, have them fight weaker flying enemies until they get an idea how to approach it) to make sure that when they encounter the real deal, they're at least theoretically ready for it and and if they lose, they should immediately know why and learn from it.

dragons, when played strait are stupid hard to beat unless you VASTLY outstrip them in power and versatility since most every dragon is not just a big pile of HP, defenses and damage... it's also a VERY mobile spellcaster... think of it as a wizard riding in a gundam. it's only saving grace is that a full party can get multiple standard/full actions against them during the encounter where someone might have a spell or item or something to bring down the dragon.

you effectively need to be either a much better wizard OR a much better gundam to take down a dragon.

[HammeredWharf]

This sounds like an issue with different expectations. The DM plays D&D by the rules. Dragons are scary, highly intelligent monsters with powerful spellcasting who like flying around and only go into melee when they know they'll win. This actually fits with your previous encounter: back then, the dragon though it could beat you easily, so it engaged in melee. Now you're still alive, more powerful and with a nasty sword, so it went full-out. I wouldn't call the following common sense, but it is common D&D sense: you shouldn't fight a dragon without flight. You just shouldn't.

On the other hand, you wanted a different, more straightforward adventure. The thing about higher-level D&D is that it usually (d)evolves into a pre-planning nightmare where spellcasters rule. The guy with a sword should be very, very prepared for the foe to teleport into another dimension, surround itself with illusions and poke him to death with transdimensional spells of weirdness. In other words, the guy with the sword is screwed.

So, no one is wrong or right in this situation and you should talk to the DM about changing the style of your game, if it really bothers you. The only thing I could blame the DM of is that his cleric of Bahamut didn't tell you you're ill-equipped to fight a dragon, but it's possible you didn't ask and/or the DM simply forgot. Generally, when you've got a capable, high-level NPC advisor, ask him for tactical advice. That way, the DM can easily help you avoid stupid decisions without breaking the fourth wall.

[Arbane]

dragons, when played strait are stupid hard to beat unless you VASTLY outstrip them in power and versatility since most every dragon is not just a big pile of HP, defenses and damage... it's also a VERY mobile spellcaster... think of it as a wizard riding in a gundam. it's only saving grace is that a full party can get multiple standard/full actions against them during the encounter where someone might have a spell or item or something to bring down the dragon.

you effectively need to be either a much better wizard OR a much better gundam to take down a dragon.

Man, I miss the good old days when a dragon was JUST a flying, firebreathing Tyrannosaurus Rex, not a freakin' archmage on top of that. :smallannoyed:



The thing about higher-level D&D is that it usually (d)evolves into a pre-planning nightmare where spellcasters rule. The guy with a sword should be very, very prepared for the foe to teleport into another dimension, surround itself with illusions and poke him to death with transdimensional spells of weirdness. In other words, the guy with the sword is screwed.


The Problem With 3.x, in a nutshell.

[prufock]

"Complaining" is probably the wrong tack to take. Thing is, while it's being analyzed above, no one is really at fault here. It doesn't sound like the DM did anything wrong, and you just had false expectations of what the dragon would or would not do. Those expectations were created by the DM through previous encounters with the creature.

Is your DM the type that asks for feedback? If so, start off with something like "I was not expecting it to fly, since it hadn't done that before. It sort of made me useless for the combat and it would have been nice to have some prior experience with it flying so we knew what to expect. Or at least some potions of fly dropped here and there."

If he's not that type, start with "Hey, I just had some questions and comments about the game. I've been enjoying it so far, but I felt kind of useless in the last fight...." Then follow with some of the above.

Your DM played a dragon as I think a dragon should be played. You interrupted an important ritual, and urgency to destroy you probably took priority over its ego.

[ElenionAncalima]

I know a lot of the critiques of your strategy seem to be off topic, but it would probably be helpful to process what they are saying before you go to your DM. The other posters do have a point when they say that the DM was using fairly reasonable tactics. If you discuss this with your DM, you may find he makes very similar points.

I think the main thing you have on your side is that you are a new player. While it is true that you could have planned better or fled when things started going south, it doesn't seem like you had a precedent for needing to do either of those two things. I would talk to the GM and explain that things seem to escalate quickly and you didn't feel prepared for it. Explain that as a result you weren't able to enjoy the fight like you expected to. Aknowledge that you realize your tactical mistakes in retrospects, but you still felt blindsided. Perhaps ask that if the future the will try to ease you into tactical challenges, such as flight, by introducing them with lesser enemies, instead of the BBEG.

[Airk]

Aknowledge that you realize your tactical mistakes in retrospects, but you still felt blindsided. Perhaps ask that if the future the will try to ease you into tactical challenges, such as flight, by introducing them with lesser enemies, instead of the BBEG.

People; Not only are you focusing on the wrong thing, but you're doing it badly. This wasn't even the first time the party had fought this dragon, but it's the first time they fight it in a room (and, apparently, corridor? WTF?) with a 30 ft ceiling, and now suddenly it's a master of flying tactics and spells that break bows? Really? Honestly, this sounds like pretty dirty pool from the GM.

Also, Mr. Lord Smeagle "Oh you should have run away" did you miss the part where they tried that? Honestly, I'm surprised this WASN'T a TPK. I don't know how the rest of the party could have gotten away.

[HammeredWharf]

People; Not only are you focusing on the wrong thing, but you're doing it badly. This wasn't even the first time the party had fought this dragon, but it's the first time they fight it in a room (and, apparently, corridor? WTF?) with a 30 ft ceiling, and now suddenly it's a master of flying tactics and spells that break bows? Really? Honestly, this sounds like pretty dirty pool from the GM.

Dragons are smart and lazy. It makes perfect sense for a dragon to recognize a party as dangerous opponents and start using better tactics. Besides, it probably just attacked the bow with an orb or a similar spell. Really, it would be stranger if intelligent opponents didn't learn from their previous encounters with PCs.


Also, Mr. Lord Smeagle "Oh you should have run away" did you miss the part where they tried that? Honestly, I'm surprised this WASN'T a TPK. I don't know how the rest of the party could have gotten away.

TC stayed and fought the dragon (a dragon) solo for two rounds before trying to run.

[Airk]

TC stayed and fought the dragon (a dragon) solo for two rounds before trying to run.

A) Paladin
B) So what, the Dragon's Move action was further than the Paladin's full round move. Who cares how long they waited?
C) Missing the point again, I see.

[Lorsa]

It doesn't matter in the slightest who is right or wrong!

Or even more to the point: in cases like this, noone is right or wrong. Debating how dragons should behave or tactical points or how your games are is completely pointless and fails to answer the question asked by the original poster, namely "how do I offer critique in as constructive manner as possible".

Only one thing is important here: a game was played and one of tha players (possibly two) didn't have fun at all. That's all the story needs, no who did what or how should monsters be or you should be okay with dying or whatever. Someone didn't have fun. End of story.

Now to answer the actual question:

Giving constructive criticism can sometimes be diffcult, and the personality of the recipient can complicate matters further. My suggestion would be to simply explain how you feel. Say that you didn't find the session enjoyable. Explain what you expected, just as you did here. Either your GM will listen and improve the game or he will not, in which case I would suggest to look for a different group.

Remember not to put any blame on the GM, don't point fingers or say that it's his fault. That's a general advice too, it's okay to say it's your fault, but not that it's someone elses.

If you want me to be more specific than that, let me know.

[ElenionAncalima]

People; Not only are you focusing on the wrong thing, but you're doing it badly. This wasn't even the first time the party had fought this dragon, but it's the first time they fight it in a room (and, apparently, corridor? WTF?) with a 30 ft ceiling, and now suddenly it's a master of flying tactics and spells that break bows? Really? Honestly, this sounds like pretty dirty pool from the GM.

My point was not to tell the OP the DM was right and they were wrong. I was simply suggesting that if they goes to talk to the DM with the attitude you are presenting, they will probably get a similar response to what they have gotten in this thread. Its sounds like the OP doesn't want an argument, so I was suggesting going in more with the attitude, "Yes, I could have played better, but I still found the situation unenjoyable and a little unfair, because..." Its hard to critique someone in a non-confronational way without giving some ground.

[Kalmageddon]

A dragon flying in a hallway does sound quite unlikely, assuming this dragon wasn't Medium size or less he would have had a wingspan far too massive to fly indoors.
Still, I don't get why someone would expect a dragon to not fly during combat if it has the space to do so. There's plenty of media outside of D&D that show dragons fighting that way. Even if someone is ignorant of D&D mechanics, picturing a dragon fly over your head breathing fire down on you like a medieval bomber is not exactly hard.

But it seems the encounter was quite weird, I'm under the impression that the players couldn't really picture what was going on clearly.

[Lorsa]

Still, I don't get why someone would expect a dragon to not fly during combat if it has the space to do so.

Does that really matter? Even so, if why is important then it seems like it was a case of the DM having portrayed monsters/dragons a certain way in the past leading the player to believe it would work the same in future combat situations and thus be dissapointed when it didn't turn out that way.

You can't really judge monster behavior based on fiction, or MM entry statistics or anything of the sort. It all depends on the interpretation of the DM.

[HolyCouncilMagi]

Do what any reasonable sumaritan would do. Punch him in the face, demand his first-born as sacrifice to appease your wrath, and once he delivers, let him off with a slap on the wrist that may or may not "accidentally" decapitate his hand. He'll get better.

So in other words, what other people have said: Firm, but polite. :smallbiggrin:

[zionpopsickle]

It doesn't matter in the slightest who is right or wrong!

Or even more to the point: in cases like this, noone is right or wrong. Debating how dragons should behave or tactical points or how your games are is completely pointless and fails to answer the question asked by the original poster, namely "how do I offer critique in as constructive manner as possible".

Only one thing is important here: a game was played and one of tha players (possibly two) didn't have fun at all. That's all the story needs, no who did what or how should monsters be or you should be okay with dying or whatever. Someone didn't have fun. End of story.

Now to answer the actual question:

Giving constructive criticism can sometimes be diffcult, and the personality of the recipient can complicate matters further. My suggestion would be to simply explain how you feel. Say that you didn't find the session enjoyable. Explain what you expected, just as you did here. Either your GM will listen and improve the game or he will not, in which case I would suggest to look for a different group.

Remember not to put any blame on the GM, don't point fingers or say that it's his fault. That's a general advice too, it's okay to say it's your fault, but not that it's someone elses.

If you want me to be more specific than that, let me know.

I get what you are trying to say but I think that the bolded statement, while sounding nice, isn't actually as constructive as you intend it. It is all well and good to say that the point of the game is to have fun, but it is literally impossible for the game to always be fun for all people, even discounting the fact that some players can be jerks. This is not to say that you shouldn't be trying to maximize fun for all players involved but fun does not override all other concerns.

Frankly, from what the OP admitted, part of the problem was that their expectations going into the encounter were not really that realistic. This happens. Its not anyone's fault, its just a result of normal human miscommunication. Also, a big thing is that the OP is new to the game. This is actually an important learning experience that while maybe not that great now will be something that is looked back on in a better light in the future. To expand upon this: the first time you face-tank a dragon and win it is an exciting and fun experience. But after you have seen that capability the charm quickly wears off. If a dragon is just a pile of HP and damage its not much of a monster but a mechanical exercise. And the first time a dragon circle strafes you to death sucks. But after a few times you adjust and quickly you cannot see yourself ever wanting to fight a dragon that isn't being an intelligent and devious reptilian jackass. One of the more memorable encounters I have ever had was fighting a red dragon that was flying over a city in a party of mostly melees. We could not compete with the circle strafe so instead we had a very tense chase as it flew over streets and alleys breathing fire and we hid in buildings and tried to get away. Despite being extremely outmatched it was very fun.

Games are supposed to be fun, but a big part of the fun isn't in getting exactly what you want or expect. It is in figuring out how to overcome some challenge. Now, I think the DM made some mistakes in the way he constructed the scenario but I don't think we have enough information to know if these where purposeful or not. And I think the OP made some mistakes in preparation and expectation. And the fact that we are having a frank and open discussion about this is to be taken as a good thing, even if we are not all agreeing.

[Lorsa]

I get what you are trying to say but I think that the bolded statement, while sounding nice, isn't actually as constructive as you intend it. It is all well and good to say that the point of the game is to have fun, but it is literally impossible for the game to always be fun for all people, even discounting the fact that some players can be jerks. This is not to say that you shouldn't be trying to maximize fun for all players involved but fun does not override all other concerns.

Frankly, from what the OP admitted, part of the problem was that their expectations going into the encounter were not really that realistic. This happens. Its not anyone's fault, its just a result of normal human miscommunication. Also, a big thing is that the OP is new to the game. This is actually an important learning experience that while maybe not that great now will be something that is looked back on in a better light in the future. To expand upon this: the first time you face-tank a dragon and win it is an exciting and fun experience. But after you have seen that capability the charm quickly wears off. If a dragon is just a pile of HP and damage its not much of a monster but a mechanical exercise. And the first time a dragon circle strafes you to death sucks. But after a few times you adjust and quickly you cannot see yourself ever wanting to fight a dragon that isn't being an intelligent and devious reptilian jackass. One of the more memorable encounters I have ever had was fighting a red dragon that was flying over a city in a party of mostly melees. We could not compete with the circle strafe so instead we had a very tense chase as it flew over streets and alleys breathing fire and we hid in buildings and tried to get away. Despite being extremely outmatched it was very fun.

Games are supposed to be fun, but a big part of the fun isn't in getting exactly what you want or expect. It is in figuring out how to overcome some challenge. Now, I think the DM made some mistakes in the way he constructed the scenario but I don't think we have enough information to know if these where purposeful or not. And I think the OP made some mistakes in preparation and expectation. And the fact that we are having a frank and open discussion about this is to be taken as a good thing, even if we are not all agreeing.

It is interesting that you start by saying the game isn't about always having fun and continues to describe a scenario you would think is more fun. Furthermore your anecdote of how things are for you (not liking grounded dragons but having a blast with flying ones) is just that, an anecdote. It's possible the OP may feel different to you, or maybe not, who knows, but you can't use yourself as a baseline for what other groups will find enjoyable.

Your last statement is more of the same, you have an idea of what you think games should be about and feel that they apply to everyone. I don't think that is very helpful.

Since nothing of what you said contradicts my statement that the only important thing to know here is that someone didn't have fun, and actually reinforces it, I can only re-iterate.

If you don't enjoy a game, tell the DM (and the other players) what it is you don't enjoy and why. Maybe the issue can't be fixed or changed for any number of reasons but one thing is for certain.

If you don't tell people how you feel they won't know and have no possibility to change at all.

Arguing for that you find something else more fun and so obviously the OP should too isn't helping anyone. The only thing that matters is what people want in that group. If the people there feel the same as you do it's up to them to say so, not you.

[detritus]

I love how this thread immediately becomes an excuse for some people to hurl insults at each other. Really mature, guys. Clearly showing off that YOU are right and everyone is a moron is the way to make yourself respected....

Back on topic - the OP was expecting a tough but even fight against an opponent who won't use his every power to defeat the paladin. Naïve, yes, but everyone starts somewhere. The DM should perhaps have dropped a hint or two - " are you really going to take on a dragon with just two of you?" Similarly the rest of the party might have warned the OP too.
However, while the OP feels cheated of his glorious fight he has learned a couple of important lessons -
1. NEVER split the party - there's a reason you travel around in a group.
2. Monsters don't have to fight fair

Fighting powerful monsters that you KNOW are the "end boss" is going to be tough at the best of times, why try to take it on with just two of you? He says they outmatched it 4 levels ago, yet the party was having difficulties with one of its underlings. OP, you need to slow down a little when in that situation and think.

As for complaining, I wouldn't. You want the DM to hold your hand and make sure you win every fight? Unless you're under 10 where's the challenge and satisfaction in that? Yes having your character killed is a pain, but this being DnD dying isn't the end is it? Consider it a lesson, albeit a tough one. Next time you will know that just because you have a holy sword it doesn't mean you are unstoppable, and that your DM is willing to have his monsters do their best to defeat you - next time you will be better prepared.

[Lorsa]

As for complaining, I wouldn't.

Ok so you wouldn't complain. Is that a general notion such as you'd never offer any critique against your GMs ever or just not in this specific case?

However, regardless of which it is, it fails to answer the OPs problem. Suppose you DID want to complain, how would you do it in a constructive manner?

[ElenionAncalima]

As for complaining, I wouldn't. You want the DM to hold your hand and make sure you win every fight? Unless you're under 10 where's the challenge and satisfaction in that? Yes having your character killed is a pain, but this being DnD dying isn't the end is it? Consider it a lesson, albeit a tough one.

While I don't agree with those who are completely blaming the DM in this situation, I also don't think its fair to imply that the OP is immature because they are disappointed that their character died and game reached a challenge level that they weren't prepared for. There is a reason some T and M rated video games have difficulty settings. You don't have to be under 10 to enjoy a more relaxed and casual gaming experience. I think it is perfectly reasonable for a new player to want a more relaxed game because:
a) They are still familiarizing themselves with the rules and mechanics.
b) They haven't been playing long enough to be bored with a basic game.

As long as the OP avoids being accusatory and makes it about noting a difference in play preference, as opposed to complaining about unfairness, I don't see why they shouldn't talk the DM about it...especially if they plan on playing together again. If I was the OP's DM I would absolutely want to know that someone didn't enjoy my final encounter and why.

[detritus]

Ok so you wouldn't complain. Is that a general notion such as you'd never offer any critique against your GMs ever or just not in this specific case?

However, regardless of which it is, it fails to answer the OPs problem. Suppose you DID want to complain, how would you do it in a constructive manner?


Well I wouldn't complain full stop. I might suggest things could have been handled differently, point out inconsistencies - the second explanatory post hadnt appeared when I posted originally - as has been said since, do it in a mature way. The OP's second post was much more illuminating, his first did sound like a whinge.

[detritus]

While I don't agree with those who are completely blaming the DM in this situation, I also don't think its fair to imply that the OP is immature because they are disappointed that their character died and game reached a challenge level that they weren't prepared for.
As long as the OP avoids being accusatory and makes it about noting a difference in play preference, as opposed to complaining about unfairness, I don't see why they shouldn't talk the DM about it...especially if they plan on playing together again. If I was the OP's DM I would absolutely want to know that someone didn't enjoy my final encounter and why.

As I said below, the second post from the OP made much more sense. Character death is always a pain, and yes you can feel cheated if the DM pulls a trick out of the hat you hadn't planned for. The original post read like "I wanted a stand up fight and he wouldn't let me" which is fairly immature.

His subsequent posts go much further in explaining what happened. I'd be asking the DM how a mature dragon can fly in a 30' room for a start. It sounds to me as if the DM beefed up the end game monster as they had beaten it before without thinking through the mechanics. I'd agree - talk to the DM in a non-aggressive way, offer something constructive rather than just be negative about everything, after all, he's the one going to the effort of creating the world your characters live in.

I still wouldn't split the party

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/smallstick/smallsmile.gif

[kyoryu]

Be honest, avoid character attacks, and try to understand their position.

"Hey, man, that last game didn't quite go the way I thought it would. I don't know why all of a sudden the dragon was playing 'dodge-the-paladin', and frankly I don't really understand how the dragon was supposed to fly in such a small space. Do you think we were doing something tactically wrong, or was there a bad assumption I was making, or what?"

Though, to be honest, it *sounds* like you ran against the GM's railroad. He wanted the dragon to perform its ritual, and expected you all to muck with the blue until he could succeed. Splitting the party blew that part away, so he went into overdrive to protect the dragon (and therefore his plot).

[dps]

And the DM threw the dragon at them that caused the split against new players, so right back at you.


Were they all new players, or was just the OP new? It's not clear to me. Also, just how experienced is the DM?

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Basically, you expected the Dragon to do exactly the same things as it's done before, when it didn't go well for it the last time. Then, when it changed tactics, you pretty much stood there with no hope of hurting it until you died.

Nope, sorry, can't see what the DM did wrong except maybe forget or ignore the room's dimensions. I'm afraid to say that you were overconfident, underprepared and understrength, and compounded it by not reacting to the changing circumstances.

When it took off (which would have disrupted the ritual, so by splitting the party and the two of you taking it on, you succeeded on that count), you should have pulled back, maybe stood in a doorway with your cloak protecting the ranger from the dragon's breath weapon so he could shoot at the Dragon around you. Or at the very least grabbed something that looked like it was essential for the ritual and escaped with it.

Although I'd also ask how the Dragon got into the room if there wasn't enough space for it to fly in there. :smallwink:

That said, I think kyoryu's approach is the best - just talk to your DM about it. Although I'm not completely sure about the railroading - had that been the case, the ritual would have finished when the two of you got there.

[Airk]

The whole "You should have expected this!" doesn't hold water at all. Expectations for how the game WORKS are built on previous experience. They have fought the dragon not once, but TWICE before. If the dragon didn't change tactics between those fights, there's no reason to expect that it would now. I mean, FFS, it's not like it needs to figure out that it can fly.

This, to ME, reads like the DM going "Oh ****. I've been playing this thing wrong! I'd better play dirty like I'm 'supposed' to." and thereby blindsiding the players. You can't even use the excuse that the new player should have known better - it's not like the rest of the players weren't in the room. What do THEY think?

[Defiled Cross]

Did your Mom call the Coach when you got cut from the football team?

:smallbiggrin:

[Spore]

You do thing x good but I want you to change thing y because reason z. There, constructive criticism.

[Terazul]

Expectations for how the game WORKS are built on previous experience. They have fought the dragon not once, but TWICE before. If the dragon didn't change tactics between those fights, there's no reason to expect that it would now.

I dunno, I typically think the exact opposite; If something didn't work the first two times, why in Asmodeus's name would you try it a third? Yes, there's a certain thing for player expectations, and in general one approaches a problem with a solution that has worked before (life works like that in general). But if something suddenly differs (and not even in a controversial way, the thing with wings just started flying because it didn't want to get beat up again) the players, and subsequently characters, are expected to adapt in their tactics. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation, but new players will have a harder time coping with that from my experience. That, in and of itself, is really the key point here, there was just a difference in expectations.

It sucks how that went down, but in this case, it's probably best to learn from the experience, but at the same time the OP should still bear their grievances to the DM, so they can simply come to a clearer understanding of what each of them has in mind with regards to the game. That way the OP learns from it, and the DM also learns and can also aim to provide an experience that is more fun for the OP. It's also entirely possible that the DM new this encounter would be more challenging, but perhaps didn't expect it to be so overwhelmingly so. That does happen, from time to time. It could also have been a case of "well there was this thing you could have done to make him come down but you guys didn't think of it", which is another problem altogether. So again, probably best to just discuss what sort of expectations everyone has in mind for a fun game.

[Airk]

I dunno, I typically think the exact opposite; If something didn't work the first two times, why in Asmodeus's name would you try it a third?

Because you're apparently stupid enough to try it again after it failed once? Actually, we don't know if the dragon changed tactics between the other two fights, but it's also clear that the DM gave the party tools to fight the dragon with the implication that, you know, they might be useful.

[Terazul]

Because you're apparently stupid enough to try it again after it failed once? Actually, we don't know if the dragon changed tactics between the other two fights, but it's also clear that the DM gave the party tools to fight the dragon with the implication that, you know, they might be useful.

It's entirely plausible the dragon lost the tooth and nail fight the first time, went "hey, maybe that was a fluke", and then the second time went "ok yeah, that's not going to work". It isn't that farfetched. I mean it's obvious that, for whatever reason, they didn't kill it the first or second time they faced it.

As far as equipment goes, yeah, he did. I imagine the fire resistance helped for a round or two. As I edited into my previous post, it's entirely possible the DM had something intended to ground the thing and the players never caught wind of it, or he simply didn't expect it to overpower them that much. In either case, I don't think either party is wrong for how they are reacting (for all the information we currently have). The DM was playing a monster to its strengths, and the party (or OP at the very least) had a certain expectation for the fight that went unfulfilled. It's really just one of those things where they just need to sit down and talk about their expectations for the game and find a happy medium, rather than getting upset for playing wrong, or whatever.

[Lorsa]

Did your Mom call the Coach when you got cut from the football team?

:smallbiggrin:

I don't think smilies somehow magically makes insults okay, nor is this the place or discussion for that kind of joke (if it was a joke which just seems like a underhanded excuse of making an insult).

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Thread locked for review.