DM who thinks they're fun but aren't

[AdamantlyD20]

Our DM thinks that nitty gritty levels 1-6 are the best levels ever. But also believes changing game systems in between sessions and starting you off at level one again every few sessions is a good way to have fun. All of the players have expressed our dislike of this method of gaming and have told him that we only want to play 3.P (3.5/pathfinder) and we are sick of being low level. Our DM had an NPC kill a deity in front of us, yet believes players should never have that kind of power because its too overpowered. I seriously HATE our DM and before you say "just find a new one, or don't talk to him" ... he's my brother... And the worst thing is:he seriously thinks we can still have fun - even though we have told him we don't want to change systems and we want to actually be able to play awesome characters

[LTwerewolf]

Have someone else take a turn at being dm, and do things you want to. The solution boils down to "hate the game forever," "kick your brother out of the dm seat," or "break up the group, and reform later without his knowledge."

Options 1 and 3 are like a monk. They seem better than they are (and to those that have half a brain, don't seem all that good).

[molten_dragon]

There are really only two solutions to this kind of problem. Either get him to change his DM'ing style (very unlikely), or get someone else to DM.

[TheIronGolem]

and before you say "just find a new one, or don't talk to him" ... he's my brother...

Doesn't matter; this is still the only correct answer.

[Grayson01]

How close are you and your brother?
It might be a time for the sit him down with the group and say "Look we are not having fun with X, Y, and Z. We respect your opinion and how you like to do things but we would like to have Q, B, and C. We don't wanna plit up the group but this game is for our enjoyment as well so if our opinions are not excepted we are ether changing DMs or Going to form our own game without you".

[ericgrau]

It's hard to DM and it's hard to find a DM. Take a turn at DMing or find another one. Otherwise have the whole group make your voice known to him but ten either take what you get or step in yourself. Or if it's not fun at all then stop playing until you find another group. I think a little crazy is a requirement to DM. I don't know how people find the time for it. So I appreciate those that do DM.

[The Grue]

...before you say "just find a new one, or don't talk to him" ... he's my brother...

Why does this make it impossible to find a new DM?

[shizukanashi]

I happen to agree with your DM. I think the nitty gritty levels are the best and I really enjoy E6. There are also a ton of fun games besided 3.5 and Pathfinder (though I think Pathfinder is my favorite system right now) I don't see a problem with his opinion, I share it. That said there is a time and place for everything and I enjoy epic play as well.

The problem here is he is not listening to the players. This is just bad Dming. This is a colaberative game, and everybody needs to work together. I would say talk to him and see if he wants to play a PC for a while and maybe you could take over for him (using the same characters maybe even) and just continue the story but slip into higher levels.

Failing that, get him a Pathfinder 1-20 Adventure Path for Christmas, and tell him you want to play it. This is a compromise, everybody gets what they want (at least part of the time).

[Gwazi Magnum]

The low levels being the best or not depends on your preference.

I personally prefer going high leveled and seeing my character start normal and overtime become amazingly strong.
But others prefer the simpleness and realistic feel of the low levels, it's why E6 is so popular.

That being said though, this seems to be a style conflict between players and DMs.
A group should be in agreement with a style or system, not in conflict. Otherwise that groups days are numbered.

You should try to make it clear to your DM, as a group that you aren't happy with his style.
If he still doesn't listen... then he probably should not be a DM. A common held belief is that a campaign is nothing without the DM.
This is true, but what is also forgotten by many DM's is that a DM is nothing without their players.

A DM's job is to make a world, experience and fun game for their players. If the DM fails to entertain the players then there's no reason for them to even be a DM.
In other words, if your brother won't listen it may be best to find another DM.

[Yawgmoth]

*points to sig*

[Augmental]

I happen to agree with your DM. I think the nitty gritty levels are the best and I really enjoy E6. There are also a ton of fun games besided 3.5 and Pathfinder (though I think Pathfinder is my favorite system right now) I don't see a problem with his opinion, I share it. That said there is a time and place for everything and I enjoy epic play as well.

I think the problem is that he's changing the system in-between sessions and resetting the player's levels.

[Captnq]

Ah.

Your brother isn't good at DMing.

No. I don't mean, he sucks. I mean, he does not possess the ability to run higher then 6th level because he simply cannot deal with the lack of control. He's not DMing for you to have fun. He's DMing so HE can have fun. He pretends that you are having fun so in his mind he can continue to be a God in his own little world.

Here. Let me break it down:


Our DM thinks that nitty gritty levels 1-6 are the best levels ever.
He keeps you weak so you have no power to actually have any far reaching effect on the game.


But also believes changing game systems in between sessions and starting you off at level one again every few sessions is a good way to have fun.
He actually believes this. However, his real reason for doing it is to force you to make new, low level characters that he can easily bully and never has to worry about your PCs destroying his NPCs that he has created to live out his personal fantasies.


All of the players have expressed our dislike of this method of gaming and have told him that we only want to play 3.P (3.5/pathfinder) and we are sick of being low level.
And he made up a billion excuses and didn't listen to you. Because it isn't about you. It's about him and his little universe. He has a problem.


Our DM had an NPC kill a deity in front of us, yet believes players should never have that kind of power because its too overpowered.
Again, this is wish fufillment, not DMing. The NPC in question is his personal "Gary Sue". He wanted you all to be really impressed with how "cool" the NPC/DM was.


I seriously HATE our DM and before you say "just find a new one, or don't talk to him" ... he's my brother...
And I bet you aren't the only one. Does he have any friends? Is he popular? Does anyone talk to him about anything but gaming? Does he ever have anyone to talk to about his personal problems? Any problems at home? Parents? Does he have a girlfriend?


And the worst thing is:he seriously thinks we can still have fun - even though we have told him we don't want to change systems and we want to actually be able to play awesome characters.
Yes. He does. It's all part of his personal problems and how they are manifesting in the game. You see, he wants to be awesome too. So awesome he can't take the risk of playing badly, so he has to be in control. So he DMs.

How do I know all this? I was there. I've done everything he did, and worse.

Look, I don't do this much, or... ever. But if he has an account, tell him PM me and I'll chat with him. Sounds like he needs to vent. I doubt he'll want to, but I'm offering.

[AdamantlyD20]

I think the problem is that he's changing the system in-between sessions and resetting the player's levels.

Its partially this. And partially trying to have a cohesive story. He keeps jumping systems and all the players dislike having to start over and we can't rebuild the same or similar character with every system, causing the tie to the character (in and out of character) to be non-existent at best. To 2/3 of the group, high level of play is where the game just begins to be fun. The other player is a first timer, and the DM has the view that he can change the rules in the middle of the game and that rules are just guidelines. If you kill an enemy that he didn't build properly, guess what? Now there's 12 more of them and its their turn to attack. He doesn't follow the rules of the game, he never allows players to have proper Wealth by level, he turns everything into an arms race. (Example: player takes weapon focus, and has a strength of 18, and a BAB of 2. They get +7 to their attack. So he decides hmm I think an AC of 22-24 for a CR2-4 monster is a good idea. Also lets give it +8 to attacks. The player's AC is maybe 16-19. The enemy has over 50% chance to hit the player while the players only have 25% or less chance to hit the enemy) so we take feats or use class features or buffs to try to even the odds... And so he buffs the enemies.... there is a table of average attack bonuses, HP, AC and other things for creatures of each challenge rating. He never follows it. Therefore any mathematical chance of success is skewed

[Coidzor]

Our DM thinks that nitty gritty levels 1-6 are the best levels ever. But also believes changing game systems in between sessions and starting you off at level one again every few sessions is a good way to have fun. All of the players have expressed our dislike of this method of gaming and have told him that we only want to play 3.P (3.5/pathfinder) and we are sick of being low level. Our DM had an NPC kill a deity in front of us, yet believes players should never have that kind of power because its too overpowered. I seriously HATE our DM and before you say "just find a new one, or don't talk to him" ... he's my brother... And the worst thing is:he seriously thinks we can still have fun - even though we have told him we don't want to change systems and we want to actually be able to play awesome characters

He's your brother. You have far more effective tools of social engineering available to you as a result than anything we can suggest.

[ghanjrho]

Sweet God-Emperor. Stage a mass walk-out, your brother or no. That is horrifying DM'ing. At the very least, put someone else in the DM seat for a rotation.

[VoxRationis]

Sheesh! Who changes systems in the middle of a campaign? That's just a mess in and of itself.
As for the difference in playstyles, I can sympathize, preferring lower-level play in general. But you should probably explain to him that nothing can be coherent or a good story if the very rules of the universe change regularly within the same story.

@Captnq: I would be hesitant to assume deep personal issues based on bad DMing. It's really easy to be a bad DM; it doesn't require being in a mental state worthy of psychiatric help to do so.

[Sam K]

Again, this is wish fufillment, not DMing.

This.

Seems pretty obvious he's running the kind of game HE enjoys, and either doesn't understand, care, or wants to deal with the fact that other people can have different opinions of what is fun.

Since talking to him hasn't helped, you need to put someone else in the DM seat. Depending on how much you like your brother (or how much your parents will yell at you if you exclude him, if that is a factor), you can tell him that he's welcome to join the game and try to see why you think this type of game would be more fun, or you can tell him to "get in line or get the fornicate out of the way". In either case, I would make sure he understands that the group has tried things his way and decided they dont enjoy it, and that if he insists on returning to those ways, or trying to re-create them as a player (that is, if he's gonna bitch and moan, or try to play AGAINST the party instead of with them), he will have to find another group.

If that fails, I suggest reading a song of ice and fire (aka Game of Thrones) for some helpfull advice on how to deal with family members that annoy you!

[LogosDragon]

Ah.

Your brother isn't good at DMing.

No. I don't mean, he sucks. I mean, he does not possess the ability to run higher then 6th level because he simply cannot deal with the lack of control. He's not DMing for you to have fun. He's DMing so HE can have fun. He pretends that you are having fun so in his mind he can continue to be a God in his own little world.

Here. Let me break it down:


He keeps you weak so you have no power to actually have any far reaching effect on the game.


He actually believes this. However, his real reason for doing it is to force you to make new, low level characters that he can easily bully and never has to worry about your PCs destroying his NPCs that he has created to live out his personal fantasies.


And he made up a billion excuses and didn't listen to you. Because it isn't about you. It's about him and his little universe. He has a problem.


Again, this is wish fufillment, not DMing. The NPC in question is his personal "Gary Sue". He wanted you all to be really impressed with how "cool" the NPC/DM was.


And I bet you aren't the only one. Does he have any friends? Is he popular? Does anyone talk to him about anything but gaming? Does he ever have anyone to talk to about his personal problems? Any problems at home? Parents? Does he have a girlfriend?


Yes. He does. It's all part of his personal problems and how they are manifesting in the game. You see, he wants to be awesome too. So awesome he can't take the risk of playing badly, so he has to be in control. So he DMs.

How do I know all this? I was there. I've done everything he did, and worse.

Look, I don't do this much, or... ever. But if he has an account, tell him PM me and I'll chat with him. Sounds like he needs to vent. I doubt he'll want to, but I'm offering.

Wow. This is a day I never thought I'd see. I actually agree with Captnq. Maybe I should talk to a doctor, this can't be good for my health.

Silliness aside, he hit the nail on the head. Any single one of your brother's issues is justifiable, but all of them together forms a pattern that's too clear to ignore. He's not particularly cut out for DMing, and you need to tell him so. I think being a player would be a good experience for him; it might make him bitter at first, but there's no doubt it will be humbling.

Unless he sits there messing around or not paying attention, in which case kick him ASAP, because somebody who isn't mature enough to handle being in the player seat will never improve their ability to manage the DM seat.

[delenn]

If that fails, I suggest reading a song of ice and fire (aka Game of Thrones) for some helpfull advice on how to deal with family members that annoy you!

If he wants the DM crown... dice bag over the head!

No, you need to talk to him again, as a group. "Seriously, we're not having fun being stuck below 6th level. I know that's not the kind of game you want to run, but [player x] wants to run a new game. You've been DMing for awhile anyway, and they want a chance at it. You're welcome to play with us - what kind of character do you want?"

Maybe even a temporary break where he gets to play at higher levels will make him more amenable to running a higher-level game in the future. If no one else in your group wants to DM, you can't really force him to run the game differently because then it's not going to be any fun for him, and an unhappy DM is never a better DM.

[Vrock_Summoner]

I'm going to be the unpopular camp and say that you should let him keep trying. Tell him what he's doing wrong, make deals, whatever's necessary. Hell, if his issue is just that low levels are easier to manage, maybe direct him to E6? Then you can at least develop fuller characters and plot cohesion.

The important thing is if you just kick him and are like "GTFOusuck" then he'll never have a chance to get better.

[shizukanashi]

I agree with Captnq and Losodragon and a few others. This is a guy that needs help. be it help being a DM, help working as a group or something more severe (like emotional issues).

Walking out on him is not going to solve anything, it will probably make it worse (though I guess I could see a "Change or we are not going to play with you" ultimatum to maybe open his eyes, but be careful it may backfire.)

He needs to learn how the game works. Its not about being cool and blowing up bad guys, and it is certainly not DM vs Players. its about collective storytelling. You need to mesh and sure there may be disagreements, but you have to work that out. That's the great thing about DnD, its a game directed at "nerds" and the social inept are attracted to it, and it actually teaches you social skills. DnD and gaming in general has made me a much better person.

I think you need to convince him to step aside for a while, and maybe gain some perspective. Kicking him out of the group is not going to help him, or you. Help him, don't hurt him.

[HaikenEdge]

I'm of the opinion that levels 1-6 are the least interesting levels of D&D, because the player characters are not special at all, so there's no reason to be telling stories about them, instead of other characters, even though D&D (and tabletop gaming in general) itself is a collaborative storytelling process.

However, regardless how I feel about low level games, I think your DM's (and brother's) main problem is a lack of understanding of what D&D is; it seems to me your brother wants to tell a story that he controls, where the player characters are under his thumb, when in fact, the story should be one told in collaboration by the players and the DM. What your brother should probably be doing instead of DMing is writing a novella, short story or anything else that doesn't involve collaboration.

Get rid of your DM; it doesn't matter if he's your brother, he's not DMing so much as writing a story, a process that is less about other interacting with other people and more about singular control of an artistic vision.

[Coidzor]

That said, if you wish, for whatever reason, to continue allowing him to DM without fully setting him straight or showing him how it's done, at the very least it would behoove you to show him E6 so you can at least keep the characters through an entire game before moving on to the next game.

[Gwazi Magnum]

As a response to those suggesting "Keep it going, give him pointers". I'd have to warn of the danger's of that.
About a year ago when I was more active on these forums I was in a D&D where we had a lot of troubles from this one player who I refereed to on here as "Player D".
Player D actually ended up being a semi-popular name and story on the forums from how bad it was and the frequency I'd ask people here for help and advise.

Essentially, he was a player who did not like things not going his way. He would cry, yell, complain, have tantrums and once even got violent over it.
Our group tried the path of patience, trying to help him through it and become a better player. But it didn't work, he simply got more and more angry that things wasn't happening his way and the rest of the group got more and more angry, annoyed and disconnected from the campaign over it.

Player D having been a friend I have originally invited in (and as a result was the one his mother, my mother and the rest of the group talked with on how to handle it) had to make the call of "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few". We ended up letting him go, he hate's most of us to this day over it but what D&D we did get in before the rest left for college and University became more enjoyable again.

Perhaps if we had nipped it in the bud sooner, rather than waited so long the fallout with him wouldn't be nearly as bad. And we may of been able to get back to having fun and enjoyable D&D sessions sooner.


Does anyone talk to him about anything but gaming?
Does he ever have anyone to talk to about his personal problems?
Does he have a girlfriend?

I'd have to specifically disagree with these three questions.

For the first two people can be reserved and very independent when it comes to personal issues. Not everyone is a social butterfly and/or needs socialization with others to sort out their own problems. People are wired and think differently than one another. Him having the ability to resolve personal problems himself, and keep talk with others strictly on his interest isn't necessarily a flaw.

As for the last one. Many people do not get into relationships later in life, there is nothing wrong with the individual for that. That is just their preference. Sometimes they don't click with people in their area, or they have other priorities. May someone have a romantic or sexual relationship or not should be relevant to the way they DM.

[LTwerewolf]

I agree with gwazi for the most part, but sexual frustration, if that is in fact it, has a tendency to spill over onto the game table should someone be experiencing it. I've seen it several times.

[AdamantlyD20]

That said, if you wish, for whatever reason, to continue allowing him to DM without fully setting him straight or showing him how it's done, at the very least it would behoove you to show him E6 so you can at least keep the characters through an entire game before moving on to the next game.

I've showed him E6 and I cringed while trying to explain it. (Like I said before, we {players} don't like lower levels of play) but it would be "better" than constantly starting over at level 1 because he gets bored

[Socksy]

Clearly, your only option is to become cheesemonsters. Master of Many Forms, anyone?

[CrazyYanmega]

Clearly, your only option is to become cheesemonsters. Master of Many Forms, anyone?

Trying to cheese with a DM like this is just provoking him to throw a heavily templated Tarrasque at you.

As someone who is currently the exact same type of DM, I suggest you be quick and brutally honest with him. It's likely the only way you will be able to make your displeasure known. He'll probably be upset with you for the next few months, but during this time he might be able to reflect on his actions a little.

[NoACWarrior]

I've showed him E6 and I cringed while trying to explain it. (Like I said before, we {players} don't like lower levels of play) but it would be "better" than constantly starting over at level 1 because he gets bored

Where others are interpreting your brother with deep philosophical meaning, and more others are recomending you do something about it in a drastic way (except vrock summoner), I'll try to understand what is happening.

Your Brother simply could be just bored, tired with the same old adventurers win. I think I see it in the mid session switching, having you reroll, playing rocket tag, and switching campaigns every session.

I think the type of DM your brother wants to be is a GM for an MMO with the power to play and manipulate things as he sees fit - this in it of itself can be some for some, especially to those who treat DnD as a sandbox game and go into god mode.

There are many types of DMs I have played with, and the type of DM I am, and I can't predict why exactly he is bored, but it stems to what he wants to see.

The DMs I had fun with -
The story telling DM with super attention to nitty gritty - he followed the rules for everything, in the end it was satisfying to play but was stressful as it felt like we had become our characters.
The planning and negotiating DM - he followed the rules but made exceptions when good ideas came up, or if he knew someone wasn't contributing to the party (not due to lack of trying), at times it was satisfying, but there would be things which happened which were purely ludicrous and unimaginable.
The I want to kill all PCs DM - otherwise known as DM vs PC DnD, short modules with really tough foes, it was satisfying to beat the foes down but felt alot more like a hacknslash game than DnD.
The vague but intentional DM who wanted to play in character alot - its great when DMs can make the voices and cool sound effects and even play music, but sometimes the vagueness of answers were irritating, it was satisfying to get such a roleplaying experience.
The hands off DM - the hands off DM was more like a romp in a sandbox with crazy stuff done by the PCs to other PCs and NPCs, it was satisfying at times because we could do completely off the wall things which we convinced the DM that it would work.
The excitement driven DM - this DM loved when the party got in an uproar over things he planned earlier, it was satisfying when we actually got a story hook instead of screwing some poor village we were meant to save vs an orc invasion (we didnt save the village btw, we decided a cave exploration to get as much lootz as possible was more important than trying to win over the goblinoids to our cause).
The ADD DM - this DM was interesting at times, but he just didn't plan that well, it was satisfying at times to take out the baddies which randomly came up, but his DMPC who was our party healer was just useless at times (poor girl almost always died despite being our level, it seemed at times he liked RPing her screaming in pain as she went unconscious)

And me as a DM - the careful planner but let the party do anything so long as it won't lead to the complete campaign being scrubbed or the PCs getting TKOed or turning evil on each other and going PvP - long label, I hate PvP, I also likewise hate killing PCs, I also hate dashing plans.

but back to your problems - your brother is more like the ADD DM - except that he is getting bored and making a change thinking that the change will make things fun. For him monsters which are easily beaten by the numbers arn't fun because they hold no challenge. He also will swap whenever bored and doesn't get enough interactions with the players, for which he is supplementing with requiring rules changes for the players to talk to him, giving combat options which take that much longer, and implementing DMPCs to interact with the PCs. Its almost like he wants to play too.

Sure being a DM can be fun - but you AREN'T in the party. At best you are the party's friend, ferrying them from interesting vignette to plot hook. At worst you are trying your best to test the limits of your PCs and challenge them. A DM has to remove him / herself from party satisfaction, if the party is having a good time then most DMs would be satisfied. If you run into a DM to party disconnect something has to change.

Ask your Brother why he is bored, and try to rectify the situation with more talking to NPCs and more metagame talking. Its especially satisfying for a DM to hear that what they were planning is interesting, and taking a plot hook just to see where it would go. In a PF game we played we stopped about 1/2 way into the campaign because the DM was not enthused with how we played, in this party we distrusted every NPC or DMPC regardless of if the DM vetted them or not. Thus whenever we would be handed a plot hook, we went into killing anything and everything that moved or defied us (we eventually became evil for some reason which escapes me). Pretty soon we had a cleric who commanded his undead to build us our own town so we wouldn't be afraid of regular towns with them grimey NPCs again, and the rest of the party did exactly what they wanted to do - have nothing to do with the story, build the town so we would never be betrayed, and go into caves and smash things up. Needless to say that the DM pretty much quit after we made the town and wrapped the campaign with a - "Your characters lived longish lives, not trusting other NPCs until your untimely death to the cleric who wanted more fresh bodies. Eventually the cleric's town was finished, the DMPC which he dominated became his wife, his sister was a reanimated zombie, and he became the last human ruler on blah blah land."

[Cybris75]

@OP: Talk about it. Tell him how frustrated you are and that it's not fun for everyone. If he throws a tantrum, take a pause (maybe be a DM yourself for a few weeks). Then talk some more. There is no substitute.

@Catnq: I've never been in that situation, but seeing that there seem to be a few people who are in the same boat (even on this thread), I would ask you to write up some of your thoughts about that matter and post a new thread about it. If you can help people and it only takes an hour of your time, why not do it?

[prufock]

Tell your brother that you are going to DM a game starting next session, and invite him to make his own character. Run the game how you and the other players want it run and show him how it's done.

[PaucaTerrorem]

It's your brother, right? Fist to the tender spot.


Tell your brother that you are going to DM a game starting next session, and invite him to make his own character. Run the game how you and the other players want it run and show him how it's done.
or this.

[atemu1234]

Honestly, make a clean breast of your concerns to him. Then, if he doesn't shape up, find a new DM. Even if he's your brother (hell, especially if he's your brother) he has no right to pigeonhole your group as low-level losers. Tell him you guys want to level up. If he doesn't listen to his entire group complaining, quit. If he wants to be a part of your group, tell him to roll a PC while one of you shows him how the game's supposed to be played.

[AdamantlyD20]

I appreciate all the feedback guys, I have tried asking him if he is bored because i thought maybe he wants to play a character, He even rolled up a character who was very very unoptimized. I usually help the other players build characters by offering suggestions for feats and such based on what kind of character they describe to me, so our characters are at least partially optimized, but if you put our characters into a tier, I'd say we've never pushed past tier 3 or low tier 2 because the DM doesn't have as much system mastery as myself and wouldn't know what to do if we made a demiplane or started using the wish or miracle spell.

He built his character completely for fluff and when it came to social encounters or combat failed pretty hard. So I made some different enemies on the fly so he could at least be somewhat competent and fun.

He first complained because he didn't like how he couldn't make traps. So I let him make a disable device roll and an intelligence check for his character to figure out how my traps worked and let him use my traps against enemies. He seemed to enjoy watching them get incinerated

He's the same DM who helped our newbie player build a nonworking level 7 cleric with 12 wisdom as his highest stat and won't give him stat boosting items. I told him he should let the player re-roll his stats.

His response "rules don't matter he'll be fine" ... I told him he couldn't cast anything higher than a 2nd level spell - ever... He said "nah he can cast whatever his level says he can cast" needless to say, the player constantly missed nearly every enemy (everything had high will saves) with every attempt to cast a spell for the next few sessions until (behind the DM's back) I crafted and introduced a custom magic item that increased his Wisdom, Constitution, and spellcraft by 1 every three levels. He started doing better and didn't feel like complete garbage.

[HaikenEdge]

Seems to me this is a matter of the DM not respecting the game system or the other players involved in the game; a lack of system mastery isn't a big problem if the DM is willing to learn the system, but your brother seems like a GM who would prefer the hand-waving inherent of free-form roleplay to a system with actual hard-and-fast rules like 3.5. This might simply be a problem of the personality not matching the system.

[atemu1234]

I appreciate all the feedback guys, I have tried asking him if he is bored because i thought maybe he wants to play a character, He even rolled up a character who was very very unoptimized. I usually help the other players build characters by offering suggestions for feats and such based on what kind of character they describe to me, so our characters are at least partially optimized, but if you put our characters into a tier, I'd say we've never pushed past tier 3 or low tier 2 because the DM doesn't have as much system mastery as myself and wouldn't know what to do if we made a demiplane or started using the wish or miracle spell.

He built his character completely for fluff and when it came to social encounters or combat failed pretty hard. So I made some different enemies on the fly so he could at least be somewhat competent and fun.

He first complained because he didn't like how he couldn't make traps. So I let him make a disable device roll and an intelligence check for his character to figure out how my traps worked and let him use my traps against enemies. He seemed to enjoy watching them get incinerated

He's the same DM who helped our newbie player build a nonworking level 7 cleric with 12 wisdom as his highest stat and won't give him stat boosting items. I told him he should let the player re-roll his stats.

His response "rules don't matter he'll be fine" ... I told him he couldn't cast anything higher than a 2nd level spell - ever... He said "nah he can cast whatever his level says he can cast" needless to say, the player constantly missed nearly every enemy (everything had high will saves) with every attempt to cast a spell for the next few sessions until (behind the DM's back) I crafted and introduced a custom magic item that increased his Wisdom, Constitution, and spellcraft by 1 every three levels. He started doing better and didn't feel like complete garbage.

Your DM is trash. Don't let him DM, don't let him control the group, and don't just bend the rules to suit him. If he's that bad and adamantly wants to be bad, then tell him to either reroll a better character or stop playing. He isn't a DM at this point. He's just a kid using you people in his masturbatory fantasy of being a god.

[Kioras]

The DM is not respecting the system, and is powering his custom changes by a lack of system mastery. He is just going into escalating numbers while reseting the game every few sessions to regain control.

Just do what I did in the last game. Apologize, say your just not having fun in the game any more. You want to play a game where you have more player agency, the rule stay true to the system, consistent session to session and the character's feel more powerful in the setting. Your prefered style and what he wants to do as a DM just don't mix.

Then switch over to play some board games or video games for a few sessions and then see if someone else can take over DM'n duties.

You already talked to him, he won't change and you have been suffering long enough. Don't try to be passive aggressive, or really confront him. Just appologize and end the game, play something else.

[danzibr]

I suggest taking up the DM mantle yourself and showing him how it ought to be done.

[Larkas]

Its partially this. And partially trying to have a cohesive story. He keeps jumping systems and all the players dislike having to start over and we can't rebuild the same or similar character with every system, causing the tie to the character (in and out of character) to be non-existent at best. To 2/3 of the group, high level of play is where the game just begins to be fun. The other player is a first timer, and the DM has the view that he can change the rules in the middle of the game and that rules are just guidelines. If you kill an enemy that he didn't build properly, guess what? Now there's 12 more of them and its their turn to attack. He doesn't follow the rules of the game, he never allows players to have proper Wealth by level, he turns everything into an arms race. (Example: player takes weapon focus, and has a strength of 18, and a BAB of 2. They get +7 to their attack. So he decides hmm I think an AC of 22-24 for a CR2-4 monster is a good idea. Also lets give it +8 to attacks. The player's AC is maybe 16-19. The enemy has over 50% chance to hit the player while the players only have 25% or less chance to hit the enemy) so we take feats or use class features or buffs to try to even the odds... And so he buffs the enemies.... there is a table of average attack bonuses, HP, AC and other things for creatures of each challenge rating. He never follows it. Therefore any mathematical chance of success is skewed


I appreciate all the feedback guys, I have tried asking him if he is bored because i thought maybe he wants to play a character, He even rolled up a character who was very very unoptimized. I usually help the other players build characters by offering suggestions for feats and such based on what kind of character they describe to me, so our characters are at least partially optimized, but if you put our characters into a tier, I'd say we've never pushed past tier 3 or low tier 2 because the DM doesn't have as much system mastery as myself and wouldn't know what to do if we made a demiplane or started using the wish or miracle spell.

He built his character completely for fluff and when it came to social encounters or combat failed pretty hard. So I made some different enemies on the fly so he could at least be somewhat competent and fun.

He first complained because he didn't like how he couldn't make traps. So I let him make a disable device roll and an intelligence check for his character to figure out how my traps worked and let him use my traps against enemies. He seemed to enjoy watching them get incinerated

He's the same DM who helped our newbie player build a nonworking level 7 cleric with 12 wisdom as his highest stat and won't give him stat boosting items. I told him he should let the player re-roll his stats.

His response "rules don't matter he'll be fine" ... I told him he couldn't cast anything higher than a 2nd level spell - ever... He said "nah he can cast whatever his level says he can cast" needless to say, the player constantly missed nearly every enemy (everything had high will saves) with every attempt to cast a spell for the next few sessions until (behind the DM's back) I crafted and introduced a custom magic item that increased his Wisdom, Constitution, and spellcraft by 1 every three levels. He started doing better and didn't feel like complete garbage.

Wow... Your brother isn't playing D&D. He's playing the kind of make-believe games we played when we were kids, where a "I throw a huge rock over your head!" met the response of "But I have a shield that specifically protects me from huge rocks, so I'll be fine!". He's just fooling himself and his players by saying you're playing a D&D game. You're clearly not.

Rules-wise, to be a DM in a D&D game, you need at least two things: at least some passing knowledge of the rules (though even the willingness to learn the rules might do) and the will to enforce those rules. As you get more rules-savvy, you might decide some rules must be changed, but to do that and not break the game, you must really know what you're doing. Unfortunately, from what you have shown us, your brother doesn't have any knowledge of, or love for, the game's rules. If that's really true, he unfortunately doesn't have what it takes to be a DM.

Even if that's not the answer you're looking for, it might be better for the whole group if you swapped DMs.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

My big question would be "Why is your brother part of your group?" What got him involved initially?

Is he younger or older than you and the rest of the group?

An unoptimised fluffy character isn't a bad thing in itself, but combined with the ruleset changes as a DM and wanting to keep things at low level where there's less complexity to worry about, I'm wondering whether he either doesn't understand the rules but doesn't want to show it (and the plusses on top of plusses are just another way to maintain the illusion), doesn't want to understand them, or he feels that a lot of his life is out of his control, but his DM'ing is something that is within his power.

I'd suggest breaking out a boardgame for your next session (say Settlers of Catan if you have it), that you can sit around for a few hours and just chew the fat with each other, and incidentally see what happens. Does he just sit there, saying nothing, and do the minimum on his turn, rarely interacting with the rest of the group even where it would benefit him to do so, or does he engage with people and take his place in the game, or does he act more bullishly and try and run everything? And how does he react at the end? Does he crow about it if he wins, sulk if he loses, or just discuss incidents from the game in a neutral manner?

It might also allow you to bring up the groups desired playing style in a less confrontational atmosphere, rather than 3 people telling him to sit down and do what they want - ff you hadn't already had the "group sit down" with him (which could have left him feeling bullied), I'd have suggested you do it alone, without the rest of the group, and tell him exactly what you think - not covering what the rest of the group may have said, but only your personal feelings.

Then, if he says the rest of the group haven't said anything, tell him to ask them to speak to him alone, and tell them to do so as well.

And to be honest, an occasional boardgame session, just to break things up and keep it fresh, isn't a bad idea for any group anyway.

[Yawgmoth]

Just because he's your brother doesn't mean you have to play with him. Kick him out of the group and make sure he knows exactly why he is no longer welcome. Tell him he can return if and only if he can demonstrate that he knows that he was wrong and can demonstrate a working body of the knowledge and skills a DM needs (e.g. the basic rules of 3.5, how to handle when PCs get to the level where they can actually affect the world beyond maybe killing a kobold, etc.)

[atemu1234]

I'd never let the guy be DM again. Maybe- just maybe- let him become a PC. If- and only if- he chose to listen to the new DM and the group. Never give this guy free reign EVER AGAIN. He had his chance. Now give someone else a shot.

[Taffimai]

I want to add my support to the "buy him a module" idea. That allows you to pick what you want to play, without making the task too daunting for him. My personal guess would be that his behaviour stems from a) short attention span and b) insecurity over his mechanical shortcomings.

One thing I don't understand though, is why you (as a group) don't just say "no" once in a while, especially with regards to the sudden system changes. This, at least, should always be something that is agreed upon between all participants of the game. If everyone agrees on playing football, not even the referee gets to use a baseball bat.

Another idea is to make him read this thread.

[Mootsmcboots]

He's your brother? I'm trying to imagine how this would go with my brother as this DM.

He wouldn't listen to reason just as your brother, so first step, put on the foamy Incredible Hulk fist gloves and keep punching until arms get sore

Burn something of his.

He sprays my TP with pepper spray.

I tell him he's adopted(He's not), and that he was hatched not born(Debatable)

He tells my wife I wear womens underwear.

We cry and hug and forgive one another. If he doesn't change or see reason, return to step one.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

It does seem he has no mastery of the system. I have adhd and i sometimes do exactly the same as he does i get this new idea and i write it down and we run a one shot or two before returning to the main campaign or we might find the one shot is just more fun and run that awhile.

But i second or third the idea of you taking over

[killem2]

People who DM like what you have said, are the same as the writers on shows like Dexter (seasons 5 and on). They can't write good compelling stories anymore so they just a shift in emotional response by physically altering events with out any tie in to why it changed or how.

DMs like this, really should be using adventure paths for the sanity of their players.

Some players need rail roading, some do not, but there are quite a lot of DMs that could use rail roading.

[Snails]

... starting you off at level one again every few sessions is a good way to have fun.

We expectations that are so easy, why not give it a try as DM?

[Metahuman1]

Ah.

Your brother isn't good at DMing.

No. I don't mean, he sucks. I mean, he does not possess the ability to run higher then 6th level because he simply cannot deal with the lack of control. He's not DMing for you to have fun. He's DMing so HE can have fun. He pretends that you are having fun so in his mind he can continue to be a God in his own little world.

Here. Let me break it down:


He keeps you weak so you have no power to actually have any far reaching effect on the game.


He actually believes this. However, his real reason for doing it is to force you to make new, low level characters that he can easily bully and never has to worry about your PCs destroying his NPCs that he has created to live out his personal fantasies.


And he made up a billion excuses and didn't listen to you. Because it isn't about you. It's about him and his little universe. He has a problem.


Again, this is wish fufillment, not DMing. The NPC in question is his personal "Gary Sue". He wanted you all to be really impressed with how "cool" the NPC/DM was.


And I bet you aren't the only one. Does he have any friends? Is he popular? Does anyone talk to him about anything but gaming? Does he ever have anyone to talk to about his personal problems? Any problems at home? Parents? Does he have a girlfriend?


Yes. He does. It's all part of his personal problems and how they are manifesting in the game. You see, he wants to be awesome too. So awesome he can't take the risk of playing badly, so he has to be in control. So he DMs.

How do I know all this? I was there. I've done everything he did, and worse.

Look, I don't do this much, or... ever. But if he has an account, tell him PM me and I'll chat with him. Sounds like he needs to vent. I doubt he'll want to, but I'm offering.

This.

Look, here's what I think you need to do.

Step 1: If you guys have any friends, family, extra, that he might whine too/get upset with and try to recruit to his side in this, sit them down and explain, in detail, the problems, and why they are problems.

Step 2: Coordinate the following with the other players.

Tell him your issues, as a group, and that if he doesn't knock it off, promptly, you guys are gonna stop gaming with him. Then, when he doesn't knock it off, first time he tries to tell you to restart at level 1 or change systems or what ever, do a hand signal to the other two to indicate it's time, and get up, in unison, and pack your things quickly and silently with out saying a word. Get to the door way, with out explaining, and then and only then explain again that he blew his last chance, your done, and that's it, and leave, as a group. Go to someone elses house with out telling him who's, or a game shop, or something. (Work out were this little fall back location is to be in advance.)

Step 3: Run the game with out him, or with him as a PC if he promises to cut the crap as a PC.


I've dealt with a DM that does stuff like this too. When Ruby Knight Vindicator DMM: Persist users with metric tones of turn undead attempts, God Wizards and a Half Minotaur Water Orc Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/Warblade X and a Factotum X/Swordsage 2 with the Dark Creature Template and built toward Int and Dex running every aspect of the character can't make it through one dungeon on there own, there is a problem.

Same guy, when I took over as a DM, knowing most of the different group I was running for were rookies, asked to use a Samurai Fix and I let him. He hit me with it while I was trying to juggle about 6 other things so I didn't look to closely at it. It was the Frank And K's Tome Samurai, which is designed to leave Tome of Battle classes in the dust, so Ranger/scouts, bards, paladins and sorcerer's just learning the system are not gonna be able to compete and anything I did that might have a chance of challenging him would wipe the rest of the party right out, and he knew that and did it because he knew the latter wasn't a viable option to me at the time. Consider this a cautionary tail.

[atemu1234]

Don't let this guy DM. Period. Let someone else DM, or DM yourself. He shouldn't have this level of control over your group.