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Balor01
2014-04-07, 05:57 AM
So.

There was this good outsider that had sexy sexy time with a human woman. They lived together and eventually had an Aasimar girl. But good outsider did his part of good deeds on Material plane, so evil guys tracked him down and killed him as well as his wife.

His friend, hound archon rescued the child and took her to Celestia. There, she grew, raised as cleric of Pelor and was trained in some martial arts. She missed her parents sometimes, but Celestia offered a lot of nourishment, emotional too, so our PC grew into a NG cleric of Pelor.

Now archon deemed her competent to send her to Material plane to do some good. He contacted an old human acquaintance who cleric will join and yay, adventure!

How should NG Cleric, raised on Celestia react to smelly, often brutal and dominantly TN Material plane?

thanks

BWR
2014-04-07, 07:56 AM
- Marvel at how differently magic works on the Prime.
- be a bit naive, maybe. If all you've known throughout your life is basically honest and kind beings, you tend to assume everyone you meet is the same, even if you intellectually know otherwise
- shock and horror at the lawlessness and non-good. Helping people you meet is a ingrained, almost innate attribute for many Upper Plane beings and learning that not everyone does this even if you, again only intellectually, know this is a shock. The fact that this person is NG rather than LG indicates that he is a bit of a rebel as far as Celestians are concerned, but it's nothing compared to the stuff he will encounter on the Prime.
- be shocked at fellow PC's antics and try to get them to better their ways if they aren't all LG or NG. Perhaps not a lot or terribly insistently if he wants to avoid being annoying, but a lot of incredulous looks and "come on guys!"

NotScaryBats
2014-04-07, 09:05 AM
There's an OoTS character that would be a good one to look at. She has fairy wings and speaks in Blue Speech Bubbles. I forget her name. Good examples of the sorts of things an Outsider might do / act like.

Red Fel
2014-04-07, 09:28 AM
- Marvel at how differently magic works on the Prime.
- be a bit naive, maybe. If all you've known throughout your life is basically honest and kind beings, you tend to assume everyone you meet is the same, even if you intellectually know otherwise
- shock and horror at the lawlessness and non-good. Helping people you meet is a ingrained, almost innate attribute for many Upper Plane beings and learning that not everyone does this even if you, again only intellectually, know this is a shock. The fact that this person is NG rather than LG indicates that he is a bit of a rebel as far as Celestians are concerned, but it's nothing compared to the stuff he will encounter on the Prime.
- be shocked at fellow PC's antics and try to get them to better their ways if they aren't all LG or NG. Perhaps not a lot or terribly insistently if he wants to avoid being annoying, but a lot of incredulous looks and "come on guys!"

A lot of this. Now, be clear - the "I'm not human and I don't understand your strange human ways" gag can get real old, real fast, but there are certain things she simply might not get, and there are levels of awareness as she learns.

By way of illustration, here are some things that she probably won't get the first time, but will figure out pretty quickly:
- Death (Outsiders don't 'die' as normal, they reform eventually)
- Eating/drinking/hunger/thirst
- Ordinary aspects of life

Then there are things that she'll come to understand are a part of life, but she won't fully grasp or like them. This is generally due to coming from a place of pure goodness and order; she won't see the point to much of this stuff, or the idea that it's possible will sicken her. These may not be recurring gags in the sense of "I don't get it," but could be recurring issues along the lines of "every time one of these comes up, make a little note, and inch her towards her nervous breakdown of why she hates the Material."
- Social intrigue and mild deception
- The harshness of the Material's environment
- The fact that Good and Evil coexist without totally annihilating one another
- The fact that Good people can do Evil things, and vice-versa; moral ambiguity in general
- The body-soul duality (for Outsiders, the two are one and the same); deliberately doing things that scar/damage/contaminate the body (for Outsiders, this would be like scarring the soul)

Remember also that for an Outsider, even a Native Outsider, their aligned plane is more than just a second home. It's a place of belonging. A piece of their soul (if not their whole being) is literally formed from the material of the plane; as a result, there is a sense of harmony, of everything being right with the universe when they're there. Merely being in their home plane is a soothing experience (except for planes that are designed to be in no way soothing). Contrast that with the Material, where everything is mixed in, where there is fire and water and air and earth and good and evil and people have to actually think about being Good rather than simply being Good naturally and the weather is harsh and the connection with Celestia is limited or tenuous or blinks out entirely and everything is frail and mortal and confused... It can be jarring for an Outsider, moreso for a Native Outsider who discovers that, despite believing that she belongs in Celestia, this horrible place is her true home. Imagine living in a palace, with warm sunlight and fresh food and silk bedsheets, only to be told one day that your real home is a fetid hovel. That's what this character is going to discover; not only that such horrible places exist, but that she belongs there.

Tengu_temp
2014-04-07, 10:49 AM
From my point of view, the most important thing here is: make sure to play the character in a likable way. It's very easy to become an annoying stick in the mud, whose inflexible, black and white view of things combined with naivete and ignorance about everything will make the party loathe her.


There's an OoTS character that would be a good one to look at. She has fairy wings and speaks in Blue Speech Bubbles. I forget her name. Good examples of the sorts of things an Outsider might do / act like.

For example this. Follow in this character's footsteps only if you want your fellow PCs to hate you.

toapat
2014-04-07, 12:09 PM
For example this. Follow in this character's footsteps only if you want your fellow PCs to hate you.

Celia is a good character, just in the relative terms of the story she was mostly an anchor during Dont Split the party.

Granted, considering Pelor is not who the PHB presents him as (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1115741), i wouldnt actually expect that even being raised on celestia would stop the character from integrating pretty rapidly or from going evil.

Tengu_temp
2014-04-07, 01:19 PM
I liked Celia before the Azure City Resistance arc, but she massively annoyed me during it, being an ineffectual, lawful stupid stick in the mud who cares more about littering than Belkar killing innocents. And I wasn't the only one.

And Pelor the Burning Hate is pure fanon. It's pretty witty and amusing fanon, but still fanon.

Red Fel
2014-04-07, 01:55 PM
I liked Celia before the Azure City Resistance arc, but she massively annoyed me during it, being an ineffectual, lawful stupid stick in the mud who cares more about littering than Belkar killing innocents. And I wasn't the only one.

And Pelor the Burning Hate is pure fanon. It's pretty witty and amusing fanon, but still fanon.

The thing to remember, however, is that Good is not nice (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodIsNotNice). (Note the BoED quote on that page. Also, warning: TV Tropes.) Particularly Lawful Good. Particularly Celestial Lawful Good. Remember that the Tome Archons - some of the most powerful not-quite-deity Celestial beings - are also among the most militant and ruthless Good beings in the cosmos.

It would make sense, in terms of narrative and character, for a person raised in Celestia to be a "lawful stupid stick in the mud."

It would not make sense in terms of gameplay. Lawful stupid is almost never a good idea in terms of gameplay or table cohesion; lawful stupid because I was raised in LG heaven is an even worse idea. It's fine as a way to introduce the character, provided you're willing to grow them out of that stage quickly.

It's like the Warforged players who play the character as either a Vulcan ("What is 'love'?") or Pinocchio ("I want to be a real boy!") It's a tired trope and a caricature of what could be a real and compelling concept. Playing someone raised on Celestia as a person who is new to the nuances of moral ambiguity and white lies, of eating and sleeping, is cute and enjoyable for awhile; overplaying that particular card repeatedly just becomes grating and annoying, if not disruptive.

Tengu_temp
2014-04-07, 02:30 PM
That's why it's important for the character to be likable. It makes sense for a half-celestial not raised on the material plane to be a no fun allowed, uber-Mikoesque paladin type who sets it as her goal to be the party's inflexible moral backbone... But that character will most likely be completely hated, and that's not a good thing. The proper reaction you want from the rest of the party is "she's so cool and badass", "she's so nice and helpful", "her innocence is adorable", or a combination of these.

Also don't play this character if your party consists of jerks who will just royally screw her over for no reason. But then, playing with such people is not a good idea in general.

Slipperychicken
2014-04-09, 08:10 AM
An extraplanar visitor might be freaked out by the large variety of weather conditions here. He might never have seen snow or rain before, although a knowledge(planes) check might indicate he's heard of such events.

His native plane might not have a starry sky (which is a truly awesome spectacle even to people who see it every night), or sunsets, might not have clouds (which are also pretty to look at), and so on.

I don't remember whether those things apply in Celestia, but it's worth looking at.

But yeah, unfamiliarity with common natural events might be one way to show vulnerability and add character depth.

Lord Raziere
2014-04-09, 09:09 AM
Ahem. here is how:

"Wow. Everything is so....varied. How do you live with all this....mess? I feel like I'm looking at a disorganized room, except its the entire world. I heard that Prime Material would be different but...there is a difference between hearing about it and seeing it for real. I have no idea what to do around here. Where to even start...."

"Ok, I get the concept of money, but why would spending it all on feeding orphans be bad?"

"I don't get it, why would anyone be rude to anyone else? It doesn't seem like a good idea to insult them and just cause more conflict..."

also keep in mind that what a person from a plane thinks about the Prime Material plane is more indicative of they think than how the Prime Material plane is. Every plane is in some way purer and more focused than the prime material, as a result the Prime Material plane is kind of like a rorshach blot test: its the same picture, but everyone sees something different. a person from Celestia would probably see everything as being kind of messy and needing of cleaning up, a person from the plane of fire would probably think its cold around here, a person from one of the evil planes would think everyone is too trusting, a person from the planes of chaos would probably think of it as a little too restricting or dull.....

Two non-material planes-people would probably look at the Prime Material plane and disagree completely on how it should be changed to be "better"

toapat
2014-04-09, 09:16 AM
Ahem. here is how:

"Wow. Everything is so....varied. How do you live with all this....mess? I feel like I'm looking at a disorganized room, except its the entire world. I heard that Prime Material would be different but...there is a difference between hearing about it and seeing it for real. I have no idea what to do around here. Where to even start...."

"Ok, I get the concept of money, but why would spending it all on feeding orphans be bad?"

"I don't get it, why would anyone be rude to anyone else? It doesn't seem like a good idea to insult them and just cause more conflict..."

also keep in mind that what a person from a plane thinks about the Prime Material plane is more indicative of they think than how the Prime Material plane is. Every plane is in some way purer and more focused than the prime material, as a result the Prime Material plane is kind of like a rorshach blot test: its the same picture, but everyone sees something different. a person from Celestia would probably see everything as being kind of messy and needing of cleaning up, a person from the plane of fire would probably think its cold around here, a person from one of the evil planes would think everyone is too trusting, a person from the planes of chaos would probably think of it as a little too restricting or dull.....

Two non-material planes-people would probably look at the Prime Material plane and disagree completely on how it should be changed to be "better"

so your sugestion is to play the character as some form of Knurd (http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/index.php/Knurd)?

Kalirren
2014-04-09, 02:00 PM
I remember when I was 5 years old. When I was 4, I went to a Christian preschool, where everyone was Christian. Then when I was 5, I went to a secular kindergarten.

It was horrible, and for the sole reason that the people I knew weren't Christian. I didn't trust them because they weren't Christian.

I didn't want to be with my new classmates at all. I cried and cried every lunchtime, and was throwing up every other day even though I didn't want to, and I grasped for anything I could recognize from my preschool days, be it a children's magazine that I'd never liked, or a favorite book, and to it I would attach all of my hope for encountering someone who was Christian, normal, like me. And I was inevitably disappointed, because other people also enjoyed those things, people who weren't Christian.

I couldn't bear to tell my parents this. I didn't think it was reasonable at the time, yet I felt it so very strongly. All I could say was that "I miss home", because home was Christian too.

This behavior continued until my parents transferred me to a Christian private school, where I was suddenly normal again, and so were all my friends. And then everything was fine.

So I model such a being as your character as thinking, "People from the TN plane are aliens - and the most horrible thing is that I'm an alien too. All of my friends are actual beings of pure morality. They're normal." If going from growing up in an NG plane to TN plane, I would think that it would take extraordinary courage and psychological reslience to not be suicidal.

Cling like a leech to anything that you remember, anything at all that reminds you of home. When you walk into a church, hug that cold, jagged metal sculpture of the sun just because it reminds you of home. Cry every sunset because the sun is leaving, even if you know it will be back.

And wonder, even question with resentment, why Pelor thought it might be a good thing to send you away from Paradise. You might have been willing and prepared to go before you experienced this place, but now that you're down here, you can't comprehend that thought at all. You know exactly how much better it is up there. This world, the one you're supposedly from, is horrible, along with all the people in it. And every time you see something vaguely impure in it, your heart breaks all over again. Instinctively identify every misery in the world as a longing for the Celestia that people have never known, and when people seek what is not pure, or profess the faith, winning your trust, and then betray it, hate them. Hate them with all your heart, because those are people that you would never want to be, and would never want to exist.

And above all, you need to find an answer, a reason to remain here, and the fortitude to carry through, or you're just going to go mad and kill yourself to get back up.

Before this place finds a way of proving that you are from here, and belong here, and corrupts you too. Before the easy way back is closed forever.

Lord Raziere
2014-04-09, 05:37 PM
so your sugestion is to play the character as some form of Knurd (http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/index.php/Knurd)?

the character from Celestia? well the idea is more that Celestia is probably very clean and ideal and all that- and the Prime Material Plane in all probability does not live up to those ideals. so the character would grow up thinking that the ideal is actually the Norm- to the NG cleric from Celestia, being kind, helping people and generally being a good person or even a saint is just...normal. to them, they aren't anything special. to them, they're just this normal dude from Celestia, and everything Celestia has and such is just a natural part of their life that they grew up with.

so when they come to the Prime Material Plane.....well they see it as a big freaking mess. They wouldn't consider themselves any "above" anyone else, to them the Prime Material Plane has gone horribly astray from what they consider a normal healthy life, and it wouldn't cross their mind at first that people might be fine not living they way Celestia does, they'd just be thinking that they need help and try their best to give it while being completely ignorant of the culture around them, while not considering at first that others may not share their ideals- or as the cleric views them, the normal state of things.

think of it sort like a person from the First World going to Second or Third World countries to help them: they mean well, but they probably have no idea how people think, and the person is probably used to conveniences and little things that you can never find on the Prime Material, and while they probably have higher standard of living, the people on the Prime Material wouldn't share their view of the good life, and so on and so forth.

so to them, when they do something? they at first won't consider anything they do to be rude or forcing things or anything like that- to them, the person from Celestia would just be trying to fix things to fit their definition of whats normal.

so....yes, I think it would be Knurd, if you mean "living a life in a place of ideal goodness and light then being exposed to the normal world and thus seeing all its flaws that the most ideal place in all of existence does not have." by using Knurd...

Soarel
2014-04-10, 01:18 PM
So.

There was this good outsider that had sexy sexy time with a human woman. They lived together and eventually had an Aasimar girl. But good outsider did his part of good deeds on Material plane, so evil guys tracked him down and killed him as well as his wife.

His friend, hound archon rescued the child and took her to Celestia. There, she grew, raised as cleric of Pelor and was trained in some martial arts. She missed her parents sometimes, but Celestia offered a lot of nourishment, emotional too, so our PC grew into a NG cleric of Pelor.

Now archon deemed her competent to send her to Material plane to do some good. He contacted an old human acquaintance who cleric will join and yay, adventure!

How should NG Cleric, raised on Celestia react to smelly, often brutal and dominantly TN Material plane?

thanks

She should go all SMITE EVIL on them, turning into a self righteous crusader of good.