Will Durkon be able to cast Thor's Lightning?

[Turin_19]

Ok, I think it's pretty clear I don't play D&D.

So, will Durkula be able to cast Thor's lightning? Is there any other spell in his list he won't be able to cast?

Is that a way the Order could realize he's not reaaaaaally the same old Durkon?

[riaierb]

Boo
No
Yes

[Loreweaver15]

He'll lose access to any Good spells he could previously cast and also anything from the THOR domain.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ok, I think it's pretty clear I don't play D&D.

So, will Durkula be able to cast Thor's lightning? Is there any other spell in his list he won't be able to cast?

Is that a way the Order could realize he's not reaaaaaally the same old Durkon?

Now that Durkon is controlled by the High Priest of Hel, he loses the domains he had earlier in favor of new ones, since he has a different alignment and worships a new god. So, no, he cannot cast Thor's Lightning.

[Volthawk]

Back when Durkula first rejoined the Order (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0909.html), we got the tail end of him explaining the changes to his magic that vamprism causes (preparing spells at dusk and not being able to spontaneously cast cure spells). He could've easily mentioned the domain change there.

[Vinyadan]

I don't know if they will notice. The SRD says:


A vampire cleric has access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, or Trickery.

That can mean that it is totally normal for a cleric to lose the domains he had and gain new ones instead when he becomes a vampire, and that it may have nothing to do with who is driving the body.

"Durkon! Cast Thor's Lightning!"
"Vampires cannae cast tha, laddie".
"...damn, you're right. Try destruction instead."

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't know if they will notice. The SRD says:


That can mean that it is totally normal for a cleric to lose the domains he had and gain new ones instead when he becomes a vampire, and that it may have nothing to do with who is driving the body.

"Durkon! Cast Thor's Lightning!"
"Vampires cannae cast tha, laddie".
"...damn, you're right. Try destruction instead."
That only applies to "generic" vampire clerics, who are assumed by the SRD to be nontheistic. If a vampire cleric is theistic, presumably they draw their domains from their god just like any other cleric.

[Kornaki]

I doubt any of the Order are well read up enough on clerics and vampires to say "Aha! If you were a theistic vampire cleric you would have your original domains!"

Not to mention I believe your assertion is wrong by RAW. There is no statement 'this only applies to nontheistic vampires', so it applies to all vampires. I am certain that vampire Durkon is violating this rule and pulling domains from Hel in-comic (because anyone would make that house rule a thing) but that doesn't change the facts.

[zimmerwald1915]

I doubt any of the Order are well read up enough on clerics and vampires to say "Aha! If you were a theistic vampire cleric you would have your original domains!"
I agree. But this is peripheral to the point I was making.


Not to mention I believe your assertion is wrong by RAW. There is no statement 'this only applies to nontheistic vampires', so it applies to all vampires. I am certain that vampire Durkon is violating this rule and pulling domains from Hel in-comic (because anyone would make that house rule a thing) but that doesn't change the facts.
I disagree with your interpretation, but RAW is more or less irrelevant because the Giant believes that the rule is discussing non-theistic vampires. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279603-OOTS-883-The-Discussion-Thread/page3&p=15060436#post15060436) I am as certain as you that Durkon is drawing domains from Hel at this point.

[Reddish Mage]

I doubt any of the Order are well read up enough on clerics and vampires to say "Aha! If you were a theistic vampire cleric you would have your original domains!"

Not to mention I believe your assertion is wrong by RAW. There is no statement 'this only applies to nontheistic vampires', so it applies to all vampires. I am certain that vampire Durkon is violating this rule and pulling domains from Hel in-comic (because anyone would make that house rule a thing) but that doesn't change the facts.

I'm pretty sure that all vampires in RAW (and OOTS) are controlled by negative energy spirits (with perhaps a view campaign book-specific exceptions). I'm also certain the none of the members of OOTS have enough ranks in Knowledge (Religion) to know this.

That said, it pretty obvious that if Durkon is evil now (as Durkula sort of admits back in that comic) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0909.html) he isn't a cleric of Thor anymore (even the most cursory knowledge of D&D religion would establish that). So Durkula already admited quite that much. By helping the order back then, Durkula satisfied Roy that the vampire will continue to be helpful.

[malloyd]

I'm pretty sure that all vampires in RAW (and OOTS) are controlled by negative energy spirits (with perhaps a view campaign book-specific exceptions). I'm also certain the none of the members of OOTS have enough ranks in Knowledge (Religion) to know this.

That said, it pretty obvious that if Durkon is evil now (as Durkula sort of admits back in that comic) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0909.html) he isn't a cleric of Thor anymore (even the most cursory knowledge of D&D religion would establish that).

I'm not sure Thor's alignment is all that firmly established - I can't quite see a good god handing out a spell called Heat Blisters of Eternal Pain. And there are certainly D&D religions with complex relationships between alignments, gods, and who can draw what from which gods, indeed the Southern gods seem to be one in OOTS.

[b_jonas]

I think vampire Durkon can still cast Thor's Lightning or Thor's Might, using the power of Hel. Thor is only the inventor of these divine spells, similarly to how Bugsby has invented Bugsby's Grasping Hand, but since then, other gods (from all pantheons) have also learnt to produce lightning bolts, so probably Hel has too.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think vampire Durkon can still cast Thor's Lightning or Thor's Might, using the power of Hel. Thor is only the inventor of these divine spells, similarly to how Bugsby has invented Bugsby's Grasping Hand, but since then, other gods (from all pantheons) have also learnt to produce lightning bolts, so probably Hel has too.

According to the Class and Level Geekery thread, Durkon can still cast Thor's Might (or at least, a variation of it that has the same effect). I'm not sure he'd be able to cast Thor's Lightning, as it has always felt to me that this was part of a weather-related aspect of Thor, one which Hel doesn't share.

[b_jonas]

Incidentally, Zeus from the eastern pantheon is shown with a lightning bolt in strip #273. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html)

[Kish]

According to the Class and Level Geekery thread, Durkon can still cast Thor's Might (or at least, a variation of it that has the same effect).
The Class and Level Geekery thread makes the dodgy assumption that "Thor's Might" is nothing more and nothing less than a renamed Righteous Might.

If Thor's Might was a name for a Thor-specific version of Righteous Might rather than an actual spell unto itself, then the High Priest's new Hel's Might spell would be slightly different--in that it would grant the High Priest evil damage reduction (penetrated by a holy weapon) rather than good damage reduction. Whether the High Priest would need to blow his cover by yelling "Hel's Might!" to cast the spell is...another question.

[CRtwenty]

Ok, I think it's pretty clear I don't play D&D.

So, will Durkula be able to cast Thor's lightning? Is there any other spell in his list he won't be able to cast?

Is that a way the Order could realize he's not reaaaaaally the same old Durkon?

Thor's Lightning appears to have been a Domain spell for Durkon since Cleric's don't really get any Lighting Evocation spells, so probably not since he no longer worships Thor. Any other spells he got from that Domain would be gone too though we haven't seen any others that I can think of. "Thor's Might" was just a renamed "Righteous Might" which all Clerics can cast. Instead he now has access to some of the Domains Hel offers, which have been hinted as being the Death Domain, and Destruction Domain.

The Order is aware that his spell list has changed, but I doubt any of them have enough knowledge of religion (or ranks in the corresponding skill) to make any assumptions based on that.

[Keltest]

The Class and Level Geekery thread makes the dodgy assumption that "Thor's Might" is nothing more and nothing less than a renamed Righteous Might.

If Thor's Might was a name for a Thor-specific version of Righteous Might rather than an actual spell unto itself, then the High Priest's new Hel's Might spell would be slightly different--in that it would grant the High Priest evil damage reduction (penetrated by a holy weapon) rather than good damage reduction. Whether the High Priest would need to blow his cover by yelling "Hel's Might!" to cast the spell is...another question.

I wouldn't call it dodgy at all. The spells are all but identical, and as near as I can tell with the information presented the only difference is the name.

If it came to that, Durkon could probably call out Righteous Might as the spell name instead of Hel's Might.

Now lightning on the other hand is almost definitely lost to him. It was either a house ruled spell, in which case we have no information on it at all, or it was a Domain spell that, like Thor's Might, is simply a renamed version of a preexisting spell (in this case one clerics do not normally get).

[Kish]

There has been no indication of what the High Priest of Hel's domains are (beyond that they probably don't include Good or Chaos). People were speculating that Vampire Durkon would have the Death and Destruction domains when they were speculating that Durkon's prophecy would be fulfilled harmlessly by his bringing those domains to the dwarven people; that is not at all the same as the comic "hinting" that the High Priest's domains are Death and Destruction (and should really be a ship that's sailed now; the High Priest's plans are obviously anything but harmless).

[Keltest]

There has been no indication of what the High Priest of Hel's domains are (beyond that they probably don't include Good or Chaos). People were speculating that Vampire Durkon would have the Death and Destruction domains when they were speculating that Durkon's prophecy would be fulfilled harmlessly by his bringing those domains to the dwarven people; that is not at all the same as the comic "hinting" that the High Priest's domains are Death and Destruction (and should really be a ship that's sailed now; the High Priest's plans are obviously anything but harmless).

I think youre mistaking "harmless" with "stoppable". If the prophecy doesn't refer to the domains, then it means that regardless of what the order tries, its going to suck for the dwarves. If it refers to the domains, it means that the order and dwarves have a chance to come out of it more or less intact.

[Kish]

"...he will bring death and destruction for us all."="He will come back as a vampire with the Death and Destruction domains and briefly stand in our land before being destroyed."

...Optimistic. I cannot prove that Rich is not going to loophole the prophecy in a goofy way, but be that as it may, there are no hints as to the High Priest's domains. (Hel presumably offers the Evil domain; other than that, the domains she offers and the two domains her High Priest chose could be nearly anything. And with Rich's avowed desire not to firmly define his characters in rules, I doubt it will ever be established.)

[zimmerwald1915]

I cannot prove that Rich is not going to loophole the prophecy in a goofy way, but be that as it may, there are no hints as to the High Priest's domains.
How much of a stretch is it, really, to say that a "keeper of the...dead," whose hall is a nursery - apparently her pantheon's default nursery - for negative energy spirits, would grant the Death domain?

[brionl]

When has Durkon cast Thor's Lightning? The last time I remember him doing lightning is strip 352 when they were in Cliffport. And that was just a mis-application of Control Weather, since that's the spell he was calling, and the one that the Archon was complaining about.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

When has Durkon cast Thor's Lightning? The last time I remember him doing lightning is strip 352 when they were in Cliffport. And that was just a mis-application of Control Weather, since that's the spell he was calling, and the one that the Archon was complaining about.

He's done several times, the most recent being here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html).

[Kornaki]

The most recent application of Thor's Lightning is actually here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The most recent application of Thor's Lightning is actually here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html

Oops, I misread the post and thought we were talking about Thor's Might. :smallredface:

[providential]

Ok, I think it's pretty clear I don't play D&D.

So, will Durkula be able to cast Thor's lightning? Is there any other spell in his list he won't be able to cast?

Is that a way the Order could realize he's not reaaaaaally the same old Durkon?

I don't think that'll be the way they figure him out.

He's already come clean as evil, and save for Belkar (ironically), his party is all pretty cool with that. He even explained that he's now doing the evil cleric thing in terms of spontaneous spellcasting. That is, after all, why he can't cast those spells.

So I doubt there will be I-dare-you-cast-a-Thor-spell acid test. The members of his party who don't know the ins-and-outs of being evil have already internalized his state as a character sheet abstraction.

[Diadem]

Why couldn't the HPoH just admit that he's following Hel now?

Durkon: Hel's Might!
Roy: Huh? don't you mean Thor's might?
Durkon: No laddy, I'm a vampire now. Hel is my new patron deity
Roy: Oh. Ok. Carry on.

How would that blow his cover? Roy knows that Durkon has changed a lot, now that he's a vampire. There's no need to hide the details. All that needs to remain hidden is that the HPoH is holding Durkon's soul captive, and that he does not intent to help the order at all.

[Keltest]

Why couldn't the HPoH just admit that he's following Hel now?

Durkon: Hel's Might!
Roy: Huh? don't you mean Thor's might?
Durkon: No laddy, I'm a vampire now. Hel is my new patron deity
Roy: Oh. Ok. Carry on.

How would that blow his cover? Roy knows that Durkon has changed a lot, now that he's a vampire. There's no need to hide the details. All that needs to remain hidden is that the HPoH is holding Durkon's soul captive, and that he does not intent to help the order at all.

the order almost certainly don't have enough ranks in Knowledge (Religion) to know something is up, but the dwarves would have enough of a stigma against vampires by virtue of being a good-aligned culture. If the order is saying "This is Durkon, the high priest of Hel" when they introduce him, the dwarves would quite probably burn him at the stake.

[The Smallest]

I'm pretty sure that all vampires in RAW (and OOTS) are controlled by negative energy spirits.

I think that Vampire Durkon is an exception to the usual rules that govern vampires, and that Hel created Negative Durkon's Spirit specifically to infiltrate the Order.

[Mastikator]

Ok, I think it's pretty clear I don't play D&D.

So, will Durkula be able to cast Thor's lightning? Is there any other spell in his list he won't be able to cast?

Is that a way the Order could realize he's not reaaaaaally the same old Durkon?

Yeah, very easily. They could pull their heads out of their asses. Belkar for example already knows that it is not Durkon but a mockery of all they hold dear.

[Corneel]

I think that Vampire Durkon is an exception to the usual rules that govern vampires, and that Hel created Negative Durkon's Spirit specifically to infiltrate the Order.
That last part is contradicted by Hel calling -Durkon her "serendipitous servant" (second page, last panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

the order almost certainly don't have enough ranks in Knowledge (Religion) to know something is up, but the dwarves would have enough of a stigma against vampires by virtue of being a good-aligned culture. If the order is saying "This is Durkon, the high priest of Hel" when they introduce him, the dwarves would quite probably burn him at the stake.

Also, the dwarves, in general, do not hold Hel in very high regard, so a High Priest of hers would not be appreciated by most of them.

[Vinyadan]

Now that he has to prepare healing spells, Durkon could easily say that he didn't prepare Thor's spells to be able at healing the party.

[Kish]

Unless he's going to claim he has the Healing domain, he can't (believably claim to) prepare healing spells in his domain slots.

[Diadem]

the order almost certainly don't have enough ranks in Knowledge (Religion) to know something is up, but the dwarves would have enough of a stigma against vampires by virtue of being a good-aligned culture. If the order is saying "This is Durkon, the high priest of Hel" when they introduce him, the dwarves would quite probably burn him at the stake.

"Could you guys do me a favour and keep the fact that I'm a vampire between us? It would save us a lot of difficult explanations and potential conflict. Most dwarves aren't too keen on vampires. Incidentally, we should probably pretend I still worship Thor, that will open a lot of diplomatic doors".

I still don't see the problem. The order accepts Durkon has changed, and even accepts he's probably evil now (but not as evil as Belkar). Wanting to keep vampirism hidden is perfectly reasonable and something that is in the order's interest as well. The order should accept it easily.

The only things Durkon absolutely needs to keep hidden is a) that saving the world is no longer his primary motivation and b) that he is holding the original Durkon's soul captive.

[Keltest]

"Could you guys do me a favour and keep the fact that I'm a vampire between us? It would save us a lot of difficult explanations and potential conflict. Most dwarves aren't too keen on vampires. Incidentally, we should probably pretend I still worship Thor, that will open a lot of diplomatic doors".

I still don't see the problem. The order accepts Durkon has changed, and even accepts he's probably evil now (but not as evil as Belkar). Wanting to keep vampirism hidden is perfectly reasonable and something that is in the order's interest as well. The order should accept it easily.

The only things Durkon absolutely needs to keep hidden is a) that saving the world is no longer his primary motivation and b) that he is holding the original Durkon's soul captive.

Durkon has glowing red eyes and fangs, plus he shows up to detect evil spells. Its not something that they can just hide.

[zimmerwald1915]

Durkon has glowing red eyes and fangs, plus he shows up to detect evil spells. Its not something that they can just hide.
Durkon can prepare undetectable alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undetectableAlignment.htm) to hide his alignment and Vaarsuvius can prepare veil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/veil.htm) to change Durkon's appearance. Misdirection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/misdirection.htm) would be better than undetectable alignment, since it could allow Durkon to register as Lawful Good - Roy's alignment - to detect spells. Neither Elan nor Vaarsuvius has hitherto demonstrated the ability to cast it, but Elan has available 2nd-level spells known and V's spellbook could contain potentially anything. Malack's staff might possess the ability to hide a vampire's nature. Point is, if the Order really wants to commit to pretending Durkon is as much a dwarf as he was when he left home, they can.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Durkon has glowing red eyes and fangs, plus he shows up to detect evil spells. Its not something that they can just hide.

Malack was also quite conspicuous in this sense, and yet he was undetected by anyone in the Order until he started sucking the blood out of Belkar. If Durkon starts wearing a hooded cloak, that might be enough to disguise himself.

[Keltest]

Malack was also quite conspicuous in this sense, and yet he was undetected by anyone in the Order until he started sucking the blood out of Belkar. If Durkon starts wearing a hooded cloak, that might be enough to disguise himself.

Malack was (apparently) an albino of a species that could plausibly already have fangs. Plus, when he started sucking blood, he visibly changed a little bit (I believe the giant mentioned he did that specifically to confirm that Malack was a vampire.)

[BroomGuys]

From Roy's comment that the cleric is in the shop (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0944.html), I get the impression that Roy hasn't been totally on the level when he's talked to "Durkon" directly. He's largely been pretending he doesn't have any problems with this new "condition" because the time and place to work out whether "Durkon" is trustworthy is not when he's standing right there. This doesn't mean he isn't buying at least some of the story, that this is Durkon but a bit... changed, but I don't think he's in total denial. So I think this could go a number of ways; Roy might start picking up on some more subtle clues (e.g. accent slippage) and start to worry, or there could be a deliberate or accidental "big reveal." What will come of this is basically wide open, I think.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Malack was (apparently) an albino of a species that could plausibly already have fangs. Plus, when he started sucking blood, he visibly changed a little bit (I believe the giant mentioned he did that specifically to confirm that Malack was a vampire.)

Durkon can make up stories for his differences. And, aside from his eyes getting a little redder and his speech bubbles getting darker, I don't see much of a change in Malack.

[Keltest]

Durkon can make up stories for his differences. And, aside from his eyes getting a little redder and his speech bubbles getting darker, I don't see much of a change in Malack.

Make up stories? Like what? He got horribly mutated on his journey to look inexplicably identical to a vampire?

[Vinyadan]

Make up stories? Like what? He got horribly mutated on his journey to look inexplicably identical to a vampire?

"It's a curse, like the Mark of Justice, only called Mark of Monstrice."

[Keltest]

"It's a curse, like the Mark of Justice, only called Mark of Monstrice."

you mean like... vampirism? What would happen if a cleric offered to remove the curse? Or asked why Durkon didn't remove it himself? Or happens to roll well on his sense motive check?

[Vinyadan]

you mean like... vampirism? What would happen if a cleric offered to remove the curse? Or asked why Durkon didn't remove it himself? Or happens to roll well on his sense motive check?

Well, it needs a password, obviously. :smalltongue:

Mark of vamprice. Mark of AnnRice.

[Kish]

"Could you guys do me a favour and keep the fact that I'm a vampire between us? It would save us a lot of difficult explanations and potential conflict. Most dwarves aren't too keen on vampires. Incidentally, we should probably pretend I still worship Thor, that will open a lot of diplomatic doors".
The High Priest of Hel has been going the "right as Thor's rain" route, not the "These are the ways I have changed, but they don't make me any worse a member of the party than Belkar" route, even to dredging Durkon's memories for a Thor-worshiper's oath when lightning strikes the airship. "You should lie to the other dwarves by telling them this and also that" is completely incompatible with the persona he's been trying to project, as would be "I no longer revere Thor."

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Make up stories? Like what? He got horribly mutated on his journey to look inexplicably identical to a vampire?

Some kind of magical effect. A bad potion. Any story will do, so long as he can Bluff well enough.

[BroomGuys]

The High Priest of Hel has been going the "right as Thor's rain" route, not the "These are the ways I have changed, but they don't make me any worse a member of the party than Belkar" route, even to dredging Durkon's memories for a Thor-worshiper's oath when lightning strikes the airship. "You should lie to the other dwarves by telling them this and also that" is completely incompatible with the persona he's been trying to project, as would be "I no longer revere Thor."

So he really is banking on everyone's Knowledge (Religion) being insufficient to realize he couldn't possibly have Thor as his patron deity anymore. Perhaps this will, in fact, become a problem for him at some point.

[Keltest]

So he really is banking on everyone's Knowledge (Religion) being insufficient to realize he couldn't possibly have Thor as his patron deity anymore. Perhaps this will, in fact, become a problem for him at some point.

I doubt that he is going to try and take it that far. For example, we saw him at one point describing how he was different (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0909.html), but we never saw what the full extent of what was said, only that he needed to prepare heal spells directly and prepare spells at dusk.