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Gallazius
2014-04-07, 01:47 PM
Hello All! I haven't posted here before and apologize if this seems to be the wrong forum section.

My issue is that the campaigns I'm in always seem to die out ....
My friends who all enjoy d&d but my current issue is that with any campaign my own campaigns & others in our little group of friends always get ruined. My best friend/roomate's girlfriend doesn't like missing out on the campaigns - so far 3 of mine and now currently another friends have successfully been shut down because of her.

She is also my good friend and i don't want to hurt her feelings or his but normally we would all continue playing the campaign and no one minded as that's how d&d has always run at least for me. Now though when we start a game, which we've had to start doing secretly without her till she finds out through her boyfriend my best friend/roommate she makes him promise that he wont play without her (which he always keeps). Which although honorable isn't fair to the rest of us.

Our group consists of

My friend/roommate
His girlfriend
our mutual friend - the current Dm
My girlfriend
and Myself

His girlfriend can almost never make it - and although mine rarely can either she doesn't halt the campaign and tells us to go on ahead and have fun.

so generally, its my roommate, our dm and i. which for d&d seems pretty lame but its something but now he wont play due to his gf.....

Me and the Dm have even gone so far as to just have me play sometimes - which is still an issue for her & now my gf wants to be a regular player and bring along another friend who'd love to play.

So - what should i do?

Airk
2014-04-07, 01:54 PM
Let me see if I understand the problem.

There is a person who you would like to play with. But who is almost never available to play. And INSISTS that you can't play without her?

Is that correct?

If so, the correct answer is to sit down and talk to her. Tell her, essentially, "Look. You're basically never available. I don't think it's fair to us to not be able to play D&D because of your schedule. Unless you can make time and commit to showing up so you don't ruin everyone else's night, you'll have to sit this one out."

Play without her. Let her play a "guest character" or take over an NPC or something on those odd times when the planets align and she actually comes to a game.

Think of it like this. If you had a bunch of friends who really liked to play baseball, and one person who really likes to play baseball but isn't free to play baseball, would you never play baseball again because that one friend can't make time in their schedule?

Gallazius
2014-04-07, 02:09 PM
I actually used that exact example myself. My issue is also though that my roomate/best friend wont play without her.

Not only will that limit the party of players most of the time to just ... well me and the dm
but it will make living with him rather awkward if i do.

Red Fel
2014-04-07, 02:09 PM
If so, the correct answer is to sit down and talk to her. Tell her, essentially, "Look. You're basically never available. I don't think it's fair to us to not be able to play D&D because of your schedule. Unless you can make time and commit to showing up so you don't ruin everyone else's night, you'll have to sit this one out."

Play without her. Let her play a "guest character" or take over an NPC or something on those odd times when the planets align and she actually comes to a game.

I'm going to second this one.

I understand when players occasionally can't make games. It's a hobby, not a job; real life takes priority, that's understandable. And when a quorum of players is absent, there's not much point in running a session.

But when one player is continuously absent, it's unfair for that player to demand that the rest of us stop what we're doing. It's not fair to the other players, and it's inconsiderate of the absentee.

You've also said a few things that worry me:


My best friend/roomate's girlfriend doesn't like missing out on the campaigns - so far 3 of mine and now currently another friends have successfully been shut down because of her.

Do they shut down because of her absences, her demands, or because of other reasons to do with her?


Now though when we start a game, which we've had to start doing secretly without her till she finds out through her boyfriend my best friend/roommate she makes him promise that he wont play without her (which he always keeps).

This is just bad form altogether. I know it's more popular to simply not mention a new campaign rather than "confront" someone (I use air quotes because it's not really a confrontation), particularly when that someone is a friend, but it's not the right thing. The right thing, as Airk said, is to sit down and talk it over. Keeping secrets is going to hurt feelings much more than a friendly talk will.

Bottom line, talk. I get that she's a friend, that she contributes when she's able to be there, but if her absences are that detrimental, it's time to lay all your cards on the table and explain your position. No more hiding.

One thing, however:


His girlfriend can almost never make it - and although mine rarely can either she doesn't halt the campaign and tells us to go on ahead and have fun.
Your girlfriend's absence doesn't hurt the campaign. So why does this person's absence "ruin" campaigns? Is it because she demands things stop and wait for her? Or is there another reason?

Airk
2014-04-07, 02:19 PM
I actually used that exact example myself. My issue is also though that my roomate/best friend wont play without her.

Not only will that limit the party of players most of the time to just ... well me and the dm
but it will make living with him rather awkward if i do.

Okay; Same thing. "Hey, dude? Do you want to play D&D or not? Because your girlfriend NEVER shows up, so if we're waiting for her, we're never going to play. How about we run a game that she can play in, and another that we play when she's not here?" (You probably only need one game)

This is basically "people making unreasonable demands that are ruining everyone else's fun." Sit them down, and try talking to them like rational people.

The Insanity
2014-04-07, 02:39 PM
If it's only you and the DM, try a solo campaign, maybe you'll like it. I sure as hell do.

Gallazius
2014-04-07, 02:51 PM
To answer your questions


1. The campaigns cant continue with only 1 person. I suppose they could but id rather not do so when I'm the Dm. Our mutual friend can make it and on occasion my girlfriend. The game gets shut down when she asks her boyfriend not to play in them without her - which she has always been invited to and use to attend. He gives in to her demands and hence we lack players.

I play with a minimum of two players and the dm as sad as that is but I'm willing.

2. I made a campaign - not so much secretly but a "guys only night" for us guys to chill and play - which conveniently allowed us to play without my roommate feeling bad. She eventually asked to play to which i said yes as she said she could make the time and then didn't and made him promise to not without her. We did not in actuality start it and not tell her but did & explained that we wanted a campaign for just us.

We have sat her down and talked with her - she simply disagrees with us playing without her and thinks its wrong and mean and then guilt tripped my roommate/friend to not play.

This has caused us not to play in 3-4 months now :(

3. Its not that her absence does - she just guilts the other regular player - my roomate so we cant play. Also my girlfriend hasn't been able to play due to classes so its only been

roomate
our friend
and i

- if she guilts my roomate , then its me and and our friend - for any of the campaigns.


He wont play in any campaign without her..............

Airk
2014-04-07, 02:54 PM
I think you are at the "Call bullsh*t, then find a couple of new players." stage then, since apparently she is thinking only of herself, and her BF is going along.

Gallazius
2014-04-07, 03:00 PM
I understand that :/ and I've kinda reached that thought process also.

Its just going to hurt to make him upset and her but it kinda is the only way.



Thank you guys for helping me think through this. I hope i didn't give you guys the wrong impression of her or him. Hes just a squishy guy and doesn't want to hurt her and shes always so busy and feels left out (because shes part of a dozen clubs or so & works a lot).

Once more - thank you for the help

Talos
2014-04-07, 03:06 PM
I feel your pain. If the G/F is absolutely against not letting him play the game with out her and she refuses to make an effort to play regularly. Speak to your roomie and tell him the writing is on the wall man. I am sure he knows and you have to draw the line in the sand. If you start a game for 'guys only" then it is for guys only.

sounds to me she just wants your attention and when she gets it she is done. not a very nice person.

I had a group somewhat like this and i finally had to find another group. I imagine the DM is pulling his hair our about it. Ramping a session up then not being able to play.

The Oni
2014-04-07, 03:18 PM
And, if she isn't as horrible as she sounds you can invite her to another game some time in the future; but have the DM lay down the ground rules immediately. "This is when we play, and if most of us show up then we're playing with or without you." Friendly, but non-negotiable.

obryn
2014-04-07, 03:18 PM
My issue is that the campaigns I'm in always seem to die out ....
My friends who all enjoy d&d but my current issue is that with any campaign my own campaigns & others in our little group of friends always get ruined. My best friend/roomate's girlfriend doesn't like missing out on the campaigns - so far 3 of mine and now currently another friends have successfully been shut down because of her.
Okay, a few questions that I don't think have been asked?

(1) How often do you play?
(2) What times are scheduled for the game?

Gallazius
2014-04-07, 03:28 PM
1. We use to play every other weekend sometimes every weekend.

Now - well we haven't played in five months ... :(

2. Friday night 7-12 use to be our playing time, we've moved it around to Saturdays, Sundays, etc to accommodate but even then it wasn't working out.

Airk
2014-04-07, 03:51 PM
Thank you guys for helping me think through this. I hope i didn't give you guys the wrong impression of her or him. Hes just a squishy guy and doesn't want to hurt her and shes always so busy and feels left out (because shes part of a dozen clubs or so & works a lot).

Once more - thank you for the help

Again - you can always TRY the "We'll have a special game that you'll be in and we'll ONLY play that when you show up!" angle, which, frankly, is all any reasonable person could ask - asking for people to "include" her in ALL their games when she can't even show up is just... horrible. So. Make the offer. Say "We'll run a game that you're in, and another that we'll only play when you can't make it.".

If she says "No, I want you to never play without me." then she's being awful and you should ditch her. (Seriously. I wouldn't take this from my best friend.) Otherwise, you've got a mutually agreeable arrangement.

Lorsa
2014-04-07, 04:29 PM
Whenever I start a new campaign I make very sure the involved people know how often we are going to play and what the schedule looks like.

There are some common options:

1) The game takes place every week on a specific day/time
2) The game takes place whenever everyone involved has time
3) The game takes place whenever a specific amount of the involved people has time

Option number 2 works well for a small group of people but very poorly for a small number. I often mix 1 and 3, that is I cancel the weekly game if a specific quota of the players isn't met.

It is very important that this is decided upon beforehand to avoid problems such as the one you described.

My suggestion would be to have more than one campaign. One with everyone except the girl that can't make many sessions, one with her as well and one for just you and the DM. Maybe even one roleplaying group with just you and your girlfriend but for a whole other kind of roleplaying...

If your friend wants to be in a relationship where he cannot engage in roleplaying with his friends without his significant other being present that is really his own business. Personally I would never accept that and would tell her that I do whatever I want with my own time. But then again I don't really think people in a relationship should have any say of what the other person does when they are not together at all so maybe I am just weird.

Mr Beer
2014-04-07, 06:01 PM
Yeah, this situation is simply ridiculous and if you want to RPG ever again, you need to cut through this nonsense. It's completely unreasonable to demand your "friends" (in this case apparently she views you as "possessions" or "servants") don't game without you and you don't turn up to games, so no-one can play, ever.

Problem is, you can't control her, you also can't control her BF. You don't want to game with one player, now personally I'd probably rather run a solo game than no game but it's up to you.

So you need new players. Either recruit or join a group. If you recruit and it's held at your place, you can invite your problem "friend" but the context should be "Hey we're gaming on this day at this time, come along if you like" and accept no BS about not being allowed to play without her. If you join another group or it's happening somewhere else, you can't really invite her...no need to make a secret of it but it's outside your control.

EDIT

Again, personally speaking, I would have a very short amount of patience for this kind of behaviour from an alleged friend. I'm assuming she is over the age of 8, so there really is no excuse for this kind of selfish, dictatorial attitude. I would be considering whether she really is a friend - put it this way, what kind of control does she expect you to demand over her social activities and how far does she go to indulge you? Friendship is reciprocal.

slaydemons
2014-04-07, 06:12 PM
I haven't had this issue but here is how I think would be a good way to resolve it. I would first tell her to knock it off with the guilt trip, its never cool to do it to someone. Then secondly calmly try to explain that if she can't it to game night that doesn't mean that everyone should have to have a lesser evening for it, if she is afraid of missing out on story bits then have her boyfriend write her a summary of each session she can keep up to date in so she doesn't feel out of the loop. Third thing I would do is try to get one more person to join in on the game.

Edit: fourth thing I would do is ask if she expects the game to go on if she and her boyfriend are there but you are not, if she does then straight up say to her "Well that is not being very fair." and try to show her that sort of behavior is rather bad

obryn
2014-04-07, 06:39 PM
1. We use to play every other weekend sometimes every weekend.

Now - well we haven't played in five months ... :(

2. Friday night 7-12 use to be our playing time, we've moved it around to Saturdays, Sundays, etc to accommodate but even then it wasn't working out.
Can a weeknight work, for a shorter time? I mean, different situations and all, but back when I was in grad school, 5 hours on a weekend night would have been iffy for me, what with all the beer I could be drinking. :smallsmile: (And now, as a guy with two young kids, a wife, a career, etc., 5 hours on a weekend night is simply not happening for entirely different reasons!)

Rhynn
2014-04-08, 03:22 AM
I think you are at the "Call bullsh*t, then find a couple of new players." stage then, since apparently she is thinking only of herself, and her BF is going along.

Yeah, this. This person is either completely unreasonable or just outright manipulative and controlling. Find a few other people who want to play. If she still wants to play, tell her that she (and her boyfriend) can play in campaign X on these days, and the rest of you play campaign Y without her (and her boyfriend, if that's his choice) on these other days.


Its just going to hurt to make him upset and her but it kinda is the only way

They're the ones making themselves upset. They have the power to solve the situation and they choose not to. Why twist yourself into knots over them?

Also,


I play with a minimum of two players and the dm as sad as that is but I'm willing.

Huh? I run games with 2 players as a regular thing; I've got a pool of 3, and it's pretty common that one can't make it (between S.O.s, work, and family & kids).


3. Its not that her absence does - she just guilts the other regular player - my roomate so we cant play. Also my girlfriend hasn't been able to play due to classes so its only been

Your roommate needs to either stop being a wimp or just sever contact with this emotionally abusive person. If you can't ignore the emotional abuse, then the healthy thing is to cut it out of your life.


Now - well we haven't played in five months ... :(

Okay, she's not actually interested in playing, she's interested in controlling her boyfriend's social life and, for some reason, controlling your roomie (probably just because manipulative-abusive people just feel better when they control people around them).

I really recommend not even holding a game that she's invited to, you don't need that kind of person in your life. Too bad about your friend, I guess, but he's got to make his own mistakes.

Mastikator
2014-04-08, 03:39 AM
Try to procure more players, you can't make your roommate and his girlfriend play if they don't wanna (and they clearly don't wanna).

detritus
2014-04-08, 04:04 AM
Okay, she's not actually interested in playing, she's interested in controlling her boyfriend's social life.

So, the gf won't let him play a dnd game without her, but presumably she is allowed to go to all her clubs without him?
If he's happy with that then that's fine but it can't dictate when the rest of your group game.

You've tried to accommodate her, changed gaming times, even made a new game she wasn't involved in to get around this...and then let her "join", with predictable consequences.

You have waited 5 months (!) for her, I think that's a reasonable point to say "enough", don't you?

The tough part will be making him see this, but it needs to be done.

Troacctid
2014-04-08, 02:47 PM
Your roommate needs to either stop being a wimp or just sever contact with this emotionally abusive person. If you can't ignore the emotional abuse, then the healthy thing is to cut it out of your life.



Okay, she's not actually interested in playing, she's interested in controlling her boyfriend's social life and, for some reason, controlling your roomie (probably just because manipulative-abusive people just feel better when they control people around them).

I really recommend not even holding a game that she's invited to, you don't need that kind of person in your life. Too bad about your friend, I guess, but he's got to make his own mistakes.

There's no need to demonize. If she weren't interested in playing or if she didn't value the friendship, she wouldn't care if you played without her. If she has schedule conflicts, it's not as if she's flaking out because she just doesn't feel like coming this week. Seems more likely to me that she doesn't like feeling left out. And frankly, if it were me, I wouldn't see it as unreasonable. If I were invested in a campaign, I'd want to be able to stay a part of it. If you're watching a movie with a friend and she gets up to use the bathroom, you pause it until she gets back. That's common courtesy, that is.

Airk
2014-04-08, 03:07 PM
There's no need to demonize. If she weren't interested in playing or if she didn't value the friendship, she wouldn't care if you played without her. If she has schedule conflicts, it's not as if she's flaking out because she just doesn't feel like coming this week. Seems more likely to me that she doesn't like feeling left out. And frankly, if it were me, I wouldn't see it as unreasonable. If I were invested in a campaign, I'd want to be able to stay a part of it. If you're watching a movie with a friend and she gets up to use the bathroom, you pause it until she gets back. That's common courtesy, that is.

That's nice.

When you watch a movie with a friend and put it on pause because they have to go, you're being nice.
When they hear you're watching movies without them and ask you not to do that, they're being an ass.

You don't have "schedule conflicts" for 5 months.

Something else is going on here.

shadow_archmagi
2014-04-08, 03:23 PM
That is an unfortunate situation.

I can definitely empathize with her position; not wanting to feel left out is a common and powerful emotion.

On the other hand, if she can't make more than three sessions a year, the game should probably proceed without her. Talk to her about this.

Jay R
2014-04-08, 04:01 PM
He may have to agree not to play when his girlfriend isn't there; you don't. Find players who will actually play the game.

Be polite but firm: "We're going to play, and nobody will veto our playing. Feel free to join us, but you won't stop us."

Mr Beer
2014-04-08, 07:28 PM
He may have to agree not to play when his girlfriend isn't there; you don't. Find players who will actually play the game.

Be polite but firm: "We're going to play, and nobody will veto our playing. Feel free to join us, but you won't stop us."

This, you can't fix her and you can't fix him, but you can certainly fix you and your game.

Rhynn
2014-04-08, 11:53 PM
If you're watching a movie with a friend and she gets up to use the bathroom, you pause it until she gets back. That's common courtesy, that is.

That's a terrible analogy, and I'm going to risk the arguing-semantics-about-analogies-vortex by offering a better one:
This friend doesn't want her friends to start watching movies without her.

That is not even close to reasonable. She's guilting other players into not playing in entirely new campaigns that she's not started in. She's managed to stop them from playing at all for 5 months.


There's no need to demonize.

Demonize, my rear. The behavior as described - guilting, controlling a S.O.'s social life and pastimes, controlling other people's same, etc. - is manipulative and easily bordering on emotional abuse. People shouldn't put up with it. Any normal person has the capacity to let other people enjoy hobbies without them, or - if they really, really want to be part of them - actually participate them. There's no way that, with the group having been willing to re-schedule to fit her, there should be a 5-month break in playing.

If she's really unable to deal with these people playing without her, she probably has some deeper problem that she needs to deal with - maybe with professional help - and that absolutely should - must! - not control the others' leisure time use.

Jay R
2014-04-09, 12:07 AM
If you're watching a movie with a friend and she gets up to use the bathroom, you pause it until she gets back. That's common courtesy, that is.

I think we all agree that when somebody goes to the bathroom during a game, they are still part of it.

Meanwhile, let's get back to the original question, which is somebody who doesn't want you to play without her, and won't come play.

This isn't somebody asking you to pause a movie for a few minutes. This is somebody asking you to not watch movies any more.

The answer is "No."

Knaight
2014-04-09, 12:16 AM
This isn't somebody asking you to pause a movie for a few minutes. This is somebody asking you to not watch movies any more.

In the context of an informal movie club wherein asking that person to stop watching movies diminishes ut for everyone else involved as well.

prufock
2014-04-09, 07:33 AM
My comments are just going to echo a lot of what has previously been said. You are at the "find new players" stage, having tried conversation and reason. Your roommate's girlfriend is being selfish and completely unreasonable, and your roommate caves to her emotional blackmail. Find new people to invite to your group, play without them, and never look back. If your roommate complains, make sure he knows that he's been invited to the game but chooses not to play.


Thank you guys for helping me think through this. I hope i didn't give you guys the wrong impression of her or him.
The impression I got was a selfish, petty, controlling woman and her doormat. I recognize entirely that you can't make accurate judgments of people from a one-sided, short description online, but you describe some pretty problematic behaviour.

Lorsa
2014-04-09, 09:18 AM
There's no need to demonize. If she weren't interested in playing or if she didn't value the friendship, she wouldn't care if you played without her. If she has schedule conflicts, it's not as if she's flaking out because she just doesn't feel like coming this week. Seems more likely to me that she doesn't like feeling left out. And frankly, if it were me, I wouldn't see it as unreasonable. If I were invested in a campaign, I'd want to be able to stay a part of it. If you're watching a movie with a friend and she gets up to use the bathroom, you pause it until she gets back. That's common courtesy, that is.

If you were invested in a campaign, I'm sure you could schedule time for it somewhere in a span of 5 months. Also, you don't prevent people from playing other campaigns. It's quite obvious that Rhynn is right and that she indeed cares nothing for the campaign, the friendships or anything other than her own sense of control. How else do you explain someone wanting you to sit on your hands and do nothing unless you are present?

Jornophelanthas
2014-04-09, 09:44 AM
I support most of the suggestions given above, but would like to arrange them like this:

PLAN A
Schedule a new game with the regular group, including the roommate and his girlfriend. Make sure that both are welcome, and that it will not play when a single player is unable to attend. If she is able to make it, play this campaign.
However, also schedule a new game with the regular group minus the girlfriend and explain to her that this is just a backup plan for when she is unable to attend the "real" game. Make this the game that you are currently preparing, if at all possible. If she is reasonable, she will not forbid the roommate from playing in it.

However, if she does, switch to Plan B.

PLAN B
Look for one or two new players to add to your group, and start a new game. Invite everyone, including the roommate and the girlfriend. Make sure in advance that the game will NEVER be cancelled if there are at least two players present (plus the DM), NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE. (So if the girlfriend can't attend and forces the roommate to cancel too, the game will still go on.)
(Keep the game a little loose, so that it is always easy for players' characters to join in or leave in between sessions. This should also keep the OPs girlfriend happy at the times when she can make it to the game.)

If the roommate and the girlfriend agree to those conditions, you have a game.
If they don't, tell them you respect their decision and say that they are both welcome to join any future games if they change their minds. (And if you ever learn that the relationship between the two ends, invite him back to the game, but do not invite her and don't bother informing her about it.)

---

Other advice & unfounded speculation (please ignore if not appropriate to your situation)
If you end up playing a game without your roommate / best friend, do make sure to still spend time with him if you value the friendship, even if it is not roleplaying. There is a possibility that the girlfriend disapproves of your roommate hanging out with his current friends (i.e. you, your girlfriend and the DM), and her behaviour over the past months is her attempts to sabotage the friendship. Do not let this happen, as long as you and your roommate / best friend want to maintain the friendship.
Be prepared that she may accuse you of excluding her and your roommate from either your Plan A "backup" game, or the Plan B game, and that you must therefore be a terrible friend to him. (This would mostly serve to try and convince him to end the friendship with you. You getting angry at her at that stage would only prove her point.) If this happens, you should probably remain calm and reply that you respect their wishes to only play under certain conditions, but that they should respect your freedom to do whatever you do without them. Emphasize that they are both welcome to play whenever they actually choose to join.

Gallazius
2014-04-09, 11:01 PM
Thank you all once again for your valuable insight :smallsmile:


Also - If push came to shove id choose my friend over D&d of course - friendship and people in generall are more important than a hobby, as fun of a hobby as D&d is. Will still play video games, watch shows, talk, hang out etc as always with him and her - nothing is changing but me finally telling him and his gf the truth. If anything this talk and revealing will better our friendship

The Insanity
2014-04-09, 11:58 PM
If push came to shove id choose my friend over D&d of course - friendship and people in generall are more important than a hobby, as fun of a hobby as D&d is.
What is this blasphemy?


Will still play video games, watch shows, talk, hang out etc as always with him and her
Which she probably won't have time for either and won't allow her boyfriend (and you) to play/watch/talk/hang out without her too...

Gavran
2014-04-10, 01:11 PM
Something to consider: Is it possible your roommate doesn't want to play without her but also doesn't want you to think he doesn't want to play with you?

Airk
2014-04-10, 01:30 PM
Something to consider: Is it possible your roommate doesn't want to play without her but also doesn't want you to think he doesn't want to play with you?

Huh?

Also, all possible readings of your suggestion can be dismissed with "If that is the case, his roommate should say so."