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Grayson01
2014-04-07, 01:53 PM
I don't understand what makes alter self so good. It restricts you to the same type as your original form, keeps your ability scores, HP, and gives you none of the special qualities of the creature (except movements which is good I get that). What makes this spell such a big selling point to Wiz?

GoodbyeSoberDay
2014-04-07, 02:03 PM
Various humanoids grant all of the movement forms you might want, at pretty good speeds. Avariel gets a pretty quick average flight speed IIRC, which can be priceless in low level fights. Arcanists I play prepare the spell mostly for the movement forms, which I generally find quite useful.

Various humanoids, such as Troglodytes, grant natural attack forms and a substantial natural armor bonus, which can be very useful for early gishes and any wizard who wants to pump AC.

And then if you're a race with a weird type like Dragon (see: Kobold) or Outsider (see: Otherworldly feat, Planetouched) you get to turn into things with crazy natural armor and very good natural attack forms.

ahenobarbi
2014-04-07, 02:08 PM
Also size and racial skill bonuses. Turn a human into whisper gnome and get +8 hide (+4 size, +4 race) and +4 move silently (race) bonuses.

It's pretty good for disguise too.

Rubik
2014-04-07, 02:15 PM
You know how the chameleon class is OMGWTFH4XBBQ because it has that floating feat you can change 1/day to anything you qualify for?

With that in mind, you know how humans gain a racial bonus feat that can be any feat they qualify for, as well as 3 skill points + 1/level, and how Alter Self gives you the racial bonus feats and racial skills of the creature you turn into?

How OMGWTFH4XBBQ is Alter Self when it gains you a floating bonus feat AND skill points of a human every time you cast it?

Need to be really good at stealth? Go human for Darkstalker and ranks in Hide. Need to be really good at encrypting documents? Go human for Skill Focus and ranks in Forgery. You're a sorcerer and need access to a spell you don't have? Go human for Extra Spell and ranks in Craft: Basketweaving. Need an animal companion STAT and you're not a druid? Go human for Wild Cohort and ranks in Handle Animal. Need to disable something using negative levels but you're not high enough level for Enervation? Go human for Fell Drain. Need an obscure skill, such as Lucid Dreaming? Go ahead and just imagine what you could use Alter Self for here.

Z3ro
2014-04-07, 02:27 PM
How OMGWTFH4XBBQ is Alter Self when it gains you a floating bonus feat AND skill points of a human every time you cast it?


Um, I'm pretty sure human bonuses aren't racial skill points or feats.

Rebel7284
2014-04-07, 02:29 PM
You know how the chameleon class is OMGWTFH4XBBQ because it has that floating feat you can change 1/day to anything you qualify for?

With that in mind, you know how humans gain a racial bonus feat that can be any feat they qualify for, as well as 3 skill points + 1/level, and how Alter Self gives you the racial bonus feats and racial skills of the creature you turn into?

How OMGWTFH4XBBQ is Alter Self when it gains you a floating bonus feat AND skill points of a human every time you cast it?

Need to be really good at stealth? Go human for Darkstalker and ranks in Hide. Need to be really good at encrypting documents? Go human for Skill Focus and ranks in Forgery. You're a sorcerer and need access to a spell you don't have? Go human for Extra Spell and ranks in Craft: Basketweaving. Need an animal companion STAT and you're not a druid? Go human for Wild Cohort and ranks in Handle Animal. Need to disable something using negative levels but you're not high enough level for Enervation? Go human for Fell Drain. Need an obscure skill, such as Lucid Dreaming? Go ahead and just imagine what you could use Alter Self for here.

Not that while RAW this MAY work, not all DMs will allow this use.

But overall, yes, movement modes are nice. If you wanted to cast Fly on yourself (a third level spell), Alter Self does that 2 levels/1 spell level early with 10 times longer duration....

But unlike fly, if you suddenly realize you need swim this day instead, it can be that too!

Free attacks, natural armor, etc. has been mentioned. For a second level spell, it adds a TON of flexible options.

Socratov
2014-04-07, 02:51 PM
Add to that: you can be whomever people want you to be. Do not underestimate this in a non-combat environment, when you're good you can infiltrate any bad boy's club and as an evil person you can walk around without being recognised for your notoriety. Just like the Warlock's Baleful Utterance and undead minions; if you can't find a use for it you simply are not trying creatively enough.

Story
2014-04-07, 02:51 PM
The movement modes and NA make it decently useful. It really comes into its own however if you have Outsider type, in which case you can turn into crazy stuff like the Dwarven Ancestor.

If you're undead type by contrast, the spell is all but useless. AFAIK, there's only three forms you can even turn into and the best you can get is a small swim speed.

It's also a good spell to stack on Polymorph since it doesn't change your stats or type. Polymorph into a War Troll, Alter Self back into a skinny human, and challenge the Barbarian to an arm wrestling contest.

Socratov
2014-04-07, 02:55 PM
snip
It's also a good spell to stack on Polymorph since it doesn't change your stats or type. Polymorph into a War Troll, Alter Self back into a skinny human, and challenge the Barbarian to an arm wrestling contest.

I smell a story here, you can't have come up with this without some form of experience...

Zanos
2014-04-07, 03:10 PM
Um, I'm pretty sure human bonuses aren't racial skill points or feats.
There's a pretty strong case that Alter Self doesn't give human skill points. It's a racial skill POINT bonus, not a racial bonus to a skill check, which are different things.

On the other hand a human bonus feat is a bonus feat that's granted to you because of your race. I'd be hard pressed to argue that alter self doesn't give you it.

Still, it's some pretty aromatic cheese.

For non-abusive stuff, alter self gives you access to flight a level earlier than an actual flight spell, with the added bonus of not being just flight. Need a climb or swim speed instead? Alter Self. Need AC? Alter Self? More attacks than the fighter? Alter self.

It is incredibly versatile for a single spell, which makes it excellent on prepared casters.

Rubik
2014-04-07, 03:12 PM
It is incredibly versatile for a single spell, which makes it excellent on prepared casters.Even better on sorcerers, since they need the most flexible spells they can get, due to the limited nature of their spellcasting.

Gwendol
2014-04-07, 03:15 PM
Case in point: My bardsader has it as one of his (few) spells. It's a swiss army knife of sorts, always the go-to spell for various situations. As a fighting form it grants him an additional +8 NA, or Large size (and NA), or ridiculous land speed, or flight, or swim speed, etc.

Rubik
2014-04-07, 03:18 PM
Wands at CL 5 (or even 3) are great, since they give amazing benefits as a buff. This is a spell you'll want to use all the time, even once Polymorph and its ilk become available, just because of how crazy-good it is compared to most other buffs. The only benefit you gain beyond level 5 is increased duration, though 50 minutes of Alter Self is still quite long enough to be getting on with.

Vaz
2014-04-07, 03:19 PM
You know how the chameleon class is OMGWTFH4XBBQ because it has that floating feat you can change 1/day to anything you qualify for?

With that in mind, you know how humans gain a racial bonus feat that can be any feat they qualify for, as well as 3 skill points + 1/level, and how Alter Self gives you the racial bonus feats and racial skills of the creature you turn into?

How OMGWTFH4XBBQ is Alter Self when it gains you a floating bonus feat AND skill points of a human every time you cast it?
The Feat Slot is a racial bonus, but you don't actually get to select that bonus feat. Or Skill Points. By RAW, assuming it was hand waived that it could, you could only take feats normally available at 1st level, as the typical human is 1HD, and doesn't have Spellcasting, so cannot select things like that. There are so many ways to actually break down this reading with a bit of a) logic, b) RAW, that it doesn't work.

Sorry.

One good thing is that you can break the HD limit with Reserves of Strength and (possibly combined) with something unusual like Outsider, Undead, or even (more rarely), Dragon, and Assume Supernatural Ability, you can get some stupid results. I have a particular favourite.

Rubik
2014-04-07, 03:22 PM
The Feat Slot is a racial bonus, but you don't actually get to select that bonus feat.

Sorry.So you get the human racial bonus feat, but you don't get to select the feat like the feat entry itself says you can? What do you get, then?

Is there a RAW reason for your statement, or is it a houserule?

Vaz
2014-04-07, 03:44 PM
Alter Self states;


You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

Checking the MM on Bonus feats;


Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B^B.

There is no entry for a human to check in the MM, but an example, the Aranea;

Feats: Improved Initiative, Iron Will^B, Weapon Finesse

And in the PHB for Bonus Feat;

1 extra feat at 1st level, because humans are quick to master specialized tasks and varied in their talents

And for Elves;

Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. Elves esteem the arts of swordplay and archery, so all elves are familiar with these weapons.

Human has no mention of Bonus Feats any where, related, whether or not to racial. Racial is something that's common to all the race; and what's common to all human is the additional at 1st level. However, no actual FEAT itself to select.ld select

The only thing that might work is if you can include feats as one of the following bolded;


You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as [b]height, weight, and gender[b])

YMMV, of course, and many people tend to ignore that, like Drown Healing and that being "Dead" has no mechanical penalties, though. Never said it made sense.

If of course you WERE to select a feat with your DM ruling otherwise, it would have to be one that ANY human, irregardless of class could select at 1st level; so one without prerequisites of any kind. Darkstalker, as mentioned, could work, but Extra Spell wouldn't, as it would require something that a typical human wouldn't have.

Grayson01
2014-04-07, 10:48 PM
Thank you all for your help with this topic it is becoming a lot more clear as how to make this spell work to it's fullist.

Gavinfoxx
2014-04-07, 11:00 PM
Read this handbook:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2811

I especially like Tren form. Mmmm. Tren.

8 Natural Armor, 30 foot land speed, 40 foot swim speed, +4 hide, (+8 in rocky/subterranean), 2xclaw (1d4), 1xbite (1d4), and Multiattack!

Gwendol
2014-04-08, 02:20 AM
Tren is my favored combat form, and to quell DM objections about turning into all manner of creatures I've also picked up the collector of stories skill trick (and a bunch of knowledges). RP-wise, you can have your character visit libraries and sages from time to time, or simply chat with the locals to learn more about the fauna.

Story
2014-04-08, 09:09 AM
I smell a story here, you can't have come up with this without some form of experience...

Actually I did. I seriously considered doing it with Treant to get early immunity to mind-effecting, but I've never actually did.

arkangel111
2014-04-08, 11:47 AM
Actually AFAIK the human bonus feat and skill points do not apply because the human entry specifically says something along the lines of humans only advance by character class. Making the bonus feat only applicable with a class level. Also even if it were to work ,the very wording you are reading it by would also lose you your bonus feat which could make it so you no longer qualify for other feats/Prc. I had thought of this very idea for the mountebank challenge but after days of research I found it wouldn't work. I am afb at the moment and will see if I can find the reference.

KorbeltheReader
2014-04-08, 01:44 PM
List of potential forms here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2811.0). My faves include tren, skulk, avariel, and asabi.

TuggyNE
2014-04-08, 09:04 PM
Actually AFAIK the human bonus feat and skill points do not apply because the human entry specifically says something along the lines of humans only advance by character class. Making the bonus feat only applicable with a class level. Also even if it were to work ,the very wording you are reading it by would also lose you your bonus feat which could make it so you no longer qualify for other feats/Prc. I had thought of this very idea for the mountebank challenge but after days of research I found it wouldn't work. I am afb at the moment and will see if I can find the reference.

Where is this fabled human entry?

(It should probably also be noted that Advancement: By Character Class does not mean only by character class, since templates and even HD advancement are usually still possible. Bugbears, ogre mages, centaurs, troglodytes, lizardfolk, and various others all are eligible targets for alter self but advance by character class.)

Socratov
2014-04-09, 08:29 AM
Actually I did. I seriously considered doing it with Treant to get early immunity to mind-effecting, but I've never actually did.

Well, now I'm disappointed...

Another disappointment, warlock's don't get Alter Self as an invocation (as opposed to the Dead Walk and Edvard's Black Tentacles of freezing forced intrusion amongst other things). Though It would be very strong...

Chronos
2014-04-09, 08:42 AM
The other key point about Alter Self is that it's only second level. Yeah, a spell that lets a wizard fly is fine-- There's a spell just for that... Except it's third level. Yeah, a spell that lets a wizard change form is fine... Except that's fourth level. And so on for heavy natural armor, and water breathing, and so on. No single effect is overpowered, except that you can choose from any of them when you cast the spell, and many of them you get earlier than you would from the corresponding single-purpose spell.

Story
2014-04-09, 11:11 AM
The other key point about Alter Self is that it's only second level. Yeah, a spell that lets a wizard fly is fine-- There's a spell just for that... Except it's third level.

Nitpick: Swift Fly is level 2. If you mean long duration flight, the point stands though.

arkangel111
2014-04-09, 12:53 PM
@tuggy

The argument was that the entry says:

"1 extra feat at 1st level." SRD humans

instead of:

"Weapon Proficiency: Gray elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats." SRD gray elves

Notice the wording for humans specifically calls out 1 extra feat at x level and elves say gain x feats as bonus feats.

Urpriest
2014-04-09, 03:26 PM
Where is this fabled human entry?

(It should probably also be noted that Advancement: By Character Class does not mean only by character class, since templates and even HD advancement are usually still possible. Bugbears, ogre mages, centaurs, troglodytes, lizardfolk, and various others all are eligible targets for alter self but advance by character class.)

Minor nitpick: If an entry says Advancement: By Character Class, then HD advancement is almost always impossible, unless it also lists a value for HD advancement. But yeah, agreed with the general point.

TuggyNE
2014-04-09, 07:29 PM
@tuggy

The argument was that the entry says:

"1 extra feat at 1st level." SRD humans

instead of:

"Weapon Proficiency: Gray elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats." SRD gray elves

Notice the wording for humans specifically calls out 1 extra feat at x level and elves say gain x feats as bonus feats.

OK. And?

I'm not sure how this disqualifies them. Finish your argument, please.

(Note, too, that that isn't even slightly what was mentioned before, so something is up. :smallconfused:)

Vaz
2014-04-10, 09:23 AM
He is correct in that the human feat at first level isn't actually ever called out as a Bonus Feat, and so cannot be selected, but I have no idea where the whole advances as a character comes in at all.

John Longarrow
2014-04-10, 09:34 AM
Note that most folks haven't touched on a unique use for alter self.

As you gain the senses and form you choose, this is a great way to overcome blindness or missing limbs. Extended (bumped to 3rd) means a 5th level Wizard can pull off letting the armless fighter have arms for almost 2 hours.

Story
2014-04-10, 10:40 AM
It's pretty situational seeing as there's no way to lose limbs in the first place.

hymer
2014-04-10, 10:48 AM
[...] a 5th level Wizard can pull off letting the armless fighter have arms for almost 2 hours.

Alter Self is a personal spell, so it's not so straightforward to put it on the fighter. Which is a shame, it would be a much appreciated boost for the average melee.

John Longarrow
2014-04-10, 11:05 AM
Hymer,
I'll have to recheck how we did it. There is a way to get personal spells on another person, but I can't remember the trick right now.

Rubik
2014-04-10, 11:11 AM
Hymer,
I'll have to recheck how we did it. There is a way to get personal spells on another person, but I can't remember the trick right now.Well, scrolls work, as do wands, but those require UMD for anyone who doesn't have the spell(s) on their spell list (like most martial types). A StP erudite could do it more easily, using the Soul Crystal power -- but then again, what can't they do?

The spellguard of Silverymoon PrC could do it, given that Alter Self boosts AC. Then you could toss in Ocular Spell and Chain Spell and use it on the entire party. Or combine it with war weaver for the same basic effect.

Vaz
2014-04-10, 11:16 AM
To mke it definately viable for spellguard, magic of the land, but noone who is going for spellguard doesn't take that (sorry for the double negative brains not working) tale that anyway if they know what they're doing.

It would be Incantatrix wasting their abilties on heightened fireballs.

ericgrau
2014-04-10, 11:44 AM
Pretty much movement modes and natural armor. There are also some tricks that are a bit questionable, but you might sometimes get away with them.


Even better on sorcerers, since they need the most flexible spells they can get, due to the limited nature of their spellcasting.

Movement and armor is actually pretty narrow and limiting, even when you can get 937 versions of them. If you aren't allowed the cheesy tricks then battlefield control is actually much more general purpose for combat than most anything else.

Story
2014-04-10, 11:54 AM
Spell Theft + Spellblades can transfer spells to anyone without requiring Silvery Moon.

Rubik
2014-04-10, 11:56 AM
Pretty much movement modes and natural armor. There are also some tricks that are a bit questionable, but you might sometimes get away with them.

Movement and armor is actually pretty narrow and limiting, even when you can get 937 versions of them. If you aren't allowed the cheesy tricks then battlefield control is actually much more general purpose for combat than most anything else.Hmm. Spend one spell on a single movement mode, or spend one spell on all the non-teleportation movement modes that lasts 10x as long, for a lower level spell slot, along with providing you with disguises, skill boosts, feats, natural armor, and possible access to special abilities via Assume Supernatural Ability (dependent on your type)? That definitely makes Alter Self worthwhile for sorcerers, in my book.

cosmonuts
2014-04-10, 11:59 AM
Any blindsight forms for humans with alter self?

Rijan_Sai
2014-04-10, 12:32 PM
Nitpick: Swift Fly is level 2. If you mean long duration flight, the point stands though.
Nitpick to your nitpick: Swift Fly is SPC/splat; Alter Self is core.

Vaz
2014-04-10, 12:43 PM
Any blindsight forms for humans with alter self?
Blindsight is explicitly not picked up.

TuggyNE
2014-04-11, 12:49 AM
He is correct in that the human feat at first level isn't actually ever called out as a Bonus Feat, and so cannot be selected, but I have no idea where the whole advances as a character comes in at all.

Not sure there's a meaningful difference between bonus and extra, though, which the argument appears to depend on; neither is ever given any formal definition that works in this context (since a bonus feat is certainly not "a positive modifier to a die roll feat", whatever else it may be), so the standard English meanings, which are synonymous for most if not all purposes, must be used instead.

Amphetryon
2014-04-11, 07:19 AM
Not sure there's a meaningful difference between bonus and extra, though, which the argument appears to depend on; neither is ever given any formal definition that works in this context (since a bonus feat is certainly not "a positive modifier to a die roll feat", whatever else it may be), so the standard English meanings, which are synonymous for most if not all purposes, must be used instead.

Merely out of curiosity, do you read Alter Self to grant an extra Skill Point if used to turn into a Human? 4th Level Gnome Sorcerers (for instance) could find that mighty handy to weasel into some PrCs, if you only check eligibility on entrance.

TuggyNE
2014-04-11, 07:44 AM
Merely out of curiosity, do you read Alter Self to grant an extra Skill Point if used to turn into a Human? 4th Level Gnome Sorcerers (for instance) could find that mighty handy to weasel into some PrCs, if you only check eligibility on entrance.

RAW? Yeah, I think so. In any sort of actual game? Certainly not. Nor the bonus/extra/plus/additional/other-synonym feat, for that matter.

Amphetryon
2014-04-11, 09:53 AM
RAW? Yeah, I think so. In any sort of actual game? Certainly not. Nor the bonus/extra/plus/additional/other-synonym feat, for that matter.

Given what I see some folks discuss on the various 3.X fora regarding things allowed in their games, such as Curmudgeon's reading of Enlarge Person, I'm not sure I'd ever entirely rule out such a ruling in an actual game.

Dusk Eclipse
2014-04-11, 10:01 AM
Given what I see some folks discuss on the various 3.X fora regarding things allowed in their games, such as Curmudgeon's reading of Enlarge Person, I'm not sure I'd ever entirely rule out such a ruling in an actual game.

I'm kinda curious, do you have a link by any chance?

Kinda on topic, is there any good form that would actually be useful at level 8 (Suel Arcanamach build)?

ericgrau
2014-04-11, 10:35 AM
Hmm. Spend one spell on a single movement mode, or spend one spell on all the non-teleportation movement modes that lasts 10x as long, for a lower level spell slot, along with providing you with disguises, skill boosts, feats, natural armor, and possible access to special abilities via Assume Supernatural Ability (dependent on your type)? That definitely makes Alter Self worthwhile for sorcerers, in my book.

I wouldn't spend a spell on a movement mode. At least not at first. By level 8 I might blow a level 2 spell on one. But I'd still strongly prefer spamming swift fly with my many low level slots rather than losing my turn. That's the only one you really need 98% of the time. For the other 2%, you pop a scroll. They're so rare it might only be one for the whole campaign.

All those put together are still pretty narrow and uncommon utility uses. Except feats, which won't be allowed anyway. The natural armor is worth less than the combat turn you use, so it's limited only to dungeons. That's pretty bad when you're not a wizard who can swap out your 10 min/levels for hour/levels as needed. I carry utility scrolls for 25 gp a pop, including disguise self. And yet I need the disguise self about every 3 campaigns. These things are so so uncommon. In terms of versatility you get 40 pennies when another spell like web might give you 5 dollar bills.

Amphetryon
2014-04-11, 10:38 AM
I'm kinda curious, do you have a link by any chance?
Off-topic, but requested by Dusk Eclipse:


If you do the math, the effect of +2 to STR and an 8x multiplication of gear weight has the same effect as if they didn't change size but their load tripled. Enlarge Person is good for three uses:
Monks and other characters who carry next to nothing, so it's still a Light load.
Armored characters who go from Medium to Heavy encumbrance, which imposes no additional penalties. (My guess: that's really the only case the spell was designed for.)
Enemies, to make them encumbered.

If you pay attention to encumbrance, Enlarge Person is only a halfway decent buff spell. But that third use as an offensive spell makes it more versatile than most people think. Hit a lightly-loaded enemy with that spell, indoors, and you may take them out of most of the combat. Most of the time that'll put them into medium encumbrance, slowing them down (to about 69% of normal speed). But being taller than ceiling height will mean squeezing rules apply: double movement cost penalties, with a net reduction to about 34% of their normal speed. They'll have another -4 to attack and AC, on top of the -1 from size increase. And, with double movement cost penalties, they can't take 5' steps.

dextercorvia
2014-04-11, 10:46 AM
I wouldn't spend a spell on a movement mode. At least not at first. By level 8 I might blow a level 2 spell on one. But I'd still strongly prefer spamming swift fly with my many low level slots rather than losing my turn. That's the only one you really need 98% of the time. For the other 2%, you pop a scroll. They're so rare it might only be one for the whole campaign.

Sometimes when you are overcoming an obstacle, rather than just avoiding melee, you need to fly for longer than 1 round.

ericgrau
2014-04-11, 10:47 AM
So it's a utility out of combat use. Which will probably happen once every 2 campaigns. Maybe never if you can't take the party with you. That's why I bring scrolls of spider climb.

That aside, it's better to be useful 98% of the time and fail 2% of the time than the other way around.

Amphetryon
2014-04-11, 10:47 AM
Sometimes when you are overcoming an obstacle, rather than just avoiding melee, you need to fly for longer than 1 round.

Or you've used Divination or other scouting techniques to know that flying for the entirety of the next few Rounds will make combat much more viable for your team.

Segev
2014-04-11, 10:56 AM
THe advantage of Alter Self as a "movement mode" spell over Swift Fly is that you can do things like Alter Self into an Aquatic Elf or a Merfolk and get water-breathing, too. And it also gives you utility and combat abilities, like stat bonuses and NAC from becoming such things as troglodytes.

Swift Fly is great if all you want is that one movement mode, sure. Alter Self is a larger but less specialized tool box.

Deophaun
2014-04-11, 10:57 AM
I wouldn't spend a spell on a movement mode. At least not at first. By level 8 I might blow a level 2 spell on one. But I'd still strongly prefer spamming swift fly with my many low level slots rather than losing my turn.
Alter Self lasts 10 min/level. Lesser rods of Extend are cheap. Why would you cast it in combat?

ericgrau
2014-04-11, 11:00 AM
Ambush. You don't need to in dungeons. You do in wilderness. So half the time you're stuck. Also, dungeons have ceilings. By level 12 you might be able to extend it enough, but by then you have overland flight. For the one time in the entire campaign you need something unusual, you pop your 150 gp scroll of alter self or some such.

dextercorvia
2014-04-11, 11:01 AM
I wouldn't spend a spell on a movement mode. At least not at first. By level 8 I might blow a level 2 spell on one. But I'd still strongly prefer spamming swift fly with my many low level slots rather than losing my turn. That's the only one you really need 98% of the time. For the other 2%, you pop a scroll. They're so rare it might only be one for the whole campaign.

Let me fix that for you. I'd still strongly prefer having a long duration buff I can cast outside of combat rather than losing my swift action every turn.

Deophaun
2014-04-11, 11:17 AM
Ambush. You don't need to in dungeons. You do in wilderness. So half the time you're stuck.
Half the time you're not being ambushed in the wilderness. Plus, this is why your familiar is scouting ahead. Or your party's scout.

Also, dungeons have ceilings. By level 12 you might be able to extend it enough, but by then you have overland flight.
First, you're really stuck on flight. Personally, I prefer speed, so if I'm humanoid I go with the Varag. Has the benefit of stacking with expeditious retreat for 90'. Second, overland flight is a pathetic 40' movement rate. I can get a 120' fly speed with alter self.

For the one time in the entire campaign you need something unusual, you pop your 150 gp scroll of alter self or some such.
Or, for the rest of the campaign, when you want a universally useful buff on yourself, you just cast alter self.

John Longarrow
2014-04-11, 12:19 PM
Ambush. You don't need to in dungeons. You do in wilderness. So half the time you're stuck. Also, dungeons have ceilings. By level 12 you might be able to extend it enough, but by then you have overland flight. For the one time in the entire campaign you need something unusual, you pop your 150 gp scroll of alter self or some such.

Hmm... I can walk into an ambush or I can fly ahead looking for an ambush. In a wilderness game I'll probably be able to move MUCH QUICKER by flying ahead of the party looking for that ambush rather than walking with the party and getting hit.

Toss in that I can change into something that may stand out less than the wizard walking with the party and I may be able to turn an ambush into a diplomatic encounter!

Segev
2014-04-11, 12:34 PM
Since Familiars have been brought up, recall that you can share Alter Self with your familiar, for hilarious effects.

Story
2014-04-11, 01:54 PM
If you manage to get a small Elemental as familiar, Thoqqua is a valid target. Hello, easy tunneling.