Where to draw the line with BFC

[Windstorm]

so, I'm currently putting together a new homebrew setting for an upcoming 3.P game, and one of the things I'm running into is trying to figure out where to draw the line for combat tactics from intelligent NPCs.

in my current group I'm one of two with heavy charop knowledge, most of the rest is either mid or low-op knowledge, which itself is fine. my problem presents itself when the players are faced with an intelligent enemy, and I try to play creatures to both their fluff and their strengths.

game is 3.5 with select PF stuff imported
currently the proposed adventuring party: LN paladin (law-heavy variant as opposed to LG or CG), Skills rogue, a bard/crusader orator, PF gunslinger (PF gun rules), and a kitsune sorcerer.

My major concerns are where do you draw the line for a battlefield control ToB NPC or for a BFC wizard? I know as a player I don't particularly like NPCs using bfc much, however I accept that it is a thing that's going to happen as part of the world and system. so the question becomes where the line between "fun and challenging" and "this is BS and unfun" lie.

[NoACWarrior]

so, I'm currently putting together a new homebrew setting for an upcoming 3.P game, and one of the things I'm running into is trying to figure out where to draw the line for combat tactics from intelligent NPCs.

in my current group I'm one of two with heavy charop knowledge, most of the rest is either mid or low-op knowledge, which itself is fine. my problem presents itself when the players are faced with an intelligent enemy, and I try to play creatures to both their fluff and their strengths.

game is 3.5 with select PF stuff imported
currently the proposed adventuring party: LN paladin (law-heavy variant as opposed to LG or CG), Skills rogue, a bard/crusader orator, PF gunslinger (PF gun rules), and a kitsune sorcerer.

My major concerns are where do you draw the line for a battlefield control ToB NPC or for a BFC wizard? I know as a player I don't particularly like NPCs using bfc much, however I accept that it is a thing that's going to happen as part of the world and system. so the question becomes where the line between "fun and challenging" and "this is BS and unfun" lie.

BFC becomes unfun when people can't do anything. Imagine something like wall of force, short of teleportation magic or having an ardent savant, you are stuck. Sure the bad guys can't really hurt you, but you can't hurt them either.
BFC is most fun when theres something you can do, maybe not fully optimal, but heck a full iterative attack with a bow is better than sitting down like a brick not doing anything. ToB really brings the hurt on passive BFC where the players are rewarded for doing exactly what the NPC wants them to do - this type of manipulation will make some PCs mad, but others feel challenged (if your PCs rely on skin of thier teeth stats and what not, they will be mad). A BFC wizard can completely dominate a party if they aren't prepared, but a nice one with a bit of BFC thrown in can challenge the party enough, and the BFC is applied consistently to areas (usually).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I typically go for a single gimmick or theme with enemy casters. For example, a Drider may use Web with Fell Frighten Kelgore's Grave Mist, Fell Frighten Magic Missile (hit everyone once), Fell Frighten Power Word: Pain (fear escalates every round), etc. In that case targets immune to fear won't have much to worry about besides damage and the Web, but otherwise it can be extremely difficult to defeat. Throw in some beefy minions, such as Umber Hulks, and it's an encounter suitable for a larger or higher level party.

[killem2]

I don't see anything wrong with pushing BFC.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315397-What-would-be-the-CR-rating-for-this-encounter

I put a party of 6 players into this room and they were level 8 by the time they got there. I loaded these gestalts with tons and tons of BFC spells. Greases, fogs, caltrops, walls, and so on. They all had flight going, the party was blind for almost 10 rounds to start with. It was completely dark and only one of them had darkvision.

The battle was so intense it took a full session (we're talking 5 solid hours or more of combat) plus another 4 to complete it. One of the baddies had a ring of three wishes and true rezzed the other two. And boy they felt it.

It was an auto level easy in terms of experience. so, they love it. They didn't seem to have any complaints about it.

So I would have no issues doing it again :D.

[sleepyphoenixx]

In a new group i'd start slow, that's what low levels are for. Get them used to enemies using BFC by using 1 or 2 effects/tactics for a single encounter.
Once they start using BFC themselves you can have their enemies start to counter them and use more varied effects. Use the first encounters to see how fast you can ramp it up.
There's nothing wrong with pushing it if your players turn out to be aces at tactics and BFC but it's no fun if they aren't equipped to deal with it (IC & OOC).

That said, a lot of it depends on playstyle preference. Some people like hard battles and smart enemies. Some people like to just kill a few monsters and get back to RP. Talk about expectations before the game starts.

[Windstorm]

thanks for the replies. so far the posts reaffirm what I had already thought, but its always good to check.


so far the plan is to avoid using any "no answer" BFC, like wall of force, except as part of specific static elements that have an answer built into the structure around them.
playing to a theme is probably a good way to go unless the NPC is explicitly a generalist (unlikely)
keeping the amount limited should also help keep combats to a reasonable timeframe


@killem2 - very interesting read, do you mind it being picked over for ideas? (not using it wholesale, but as an inspiration)

[killem2]

[/LIST]

@killem2 - very interesting read, do you mind it being picked over for ideas? (not using it wholesale, but as an inspiration)

Nope, not at all. that's why it's here.

The only advice I have is, I should have given them a lot more fire power. I think 7/7 each would have been better.