(More) Tolkienesque Goblins?

[Aldhissla]

Hello once again, GitP. Nifty new forums you've all got now!

I just recently branched out from having only known the movies and the games and the legendarium to actually reading the LotR books. I am familiar with the byzantine arguments and discussions regarding whether or not Gandalf is only a 5th-level Wizard, or if the One Ring would translate to just a basic magical item, etc. so I won't touch those topics with a 10' pole.

But what I do want to ask about is what the stats would be for the generic, Mordor or mountain-bred orcs/goblins/uruks/yrch/whatevers.

I ask because (at least to my interpretation) the orcs of Tolkien fall between the two stereotypes for more modern orcs and goblins that we use. They are much shorter than men and bandy-legged, but large enough to be able to grab and manhandle two Hobbits (such as Grishnákh). They also lack much charisma, intuition or leadership, but they seem more clever-yet-creatively-sterile than plain stupid. Weapon poison, siege engines and their scarring medicinal practices put that in my mind. And finally, they seem like they have to be exceptionally hardy to survive their own lives long enough to be cut down by the heroes surrounded in plot armour. And though their lifespan is ambiguous, some of them seemed to stick around for hundreds of years.

So what would you all qualify a goblin as having?

+2 Con, limited skill bonuses, and speed penalties despite a Medium size? That might be a bit too dwarf-like for most.

Small size, but without a strength penalty and/or Powerful Build? Or perhaps Medium with Slight Build à la Kobolds (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)?

I'm compiling everything I can and thinking it over before deciding on just scrapping LotR d20 for good and hopelessly forcing myself to learn the 2nd Edition Middle-Earth Role Play system I found a bunch of books of.

[hamishspence]

I think this thread was a good starting point for LOTR D20 monster home-brew rules:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?162601-Compiled-LOTR-Monster-Thread/

And it included orcs of various kinds. Including the "minor Maia" concept for the most powerful orcs - "Boldogs" - referenced in the History of Middle Earth series.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Ashtagon
Nearly as I can tell, [Tolkien] used orc and goblin interchangeably...

Yes, very much so, although "goblin" tended to be an earlier use. The "goblins" of Moria were mountain-orcs, although in Middle-Earth this is a smaller and weaker breed than Uruks.


Originally Posted by Aldhissla
I ask because (at least to my interpretation) the orcs of Tolkien fall between the two stereotypes for more modern orcs and goblins that we use.

Say rather that they follow a different tradition than the more recent stereotypes developed in D&D, especially in 3.0. The Princess and the Goblin (http://www.amazon.com/Princess-Goblin-Looking-Glass-Library/dp/0375863389/), by George MacDonald, is widely recognized as having had a strong influence on Tolkien.



Also note that in earlier tales such as The Princess and the Goblin, the goblins have a facility with mining and mechanical cleverness, which in D&D has been mainly shifted to the kobolds. Tolkien's goblins were very much in the traditional line--in The Hobbit he writes how extremely inventive they were with mechanisms, especially those involving torture and the dealing of damage.

The 3.5 Monster Manual, by contrast, depicts the goblins as mini-orcs, filthy and tribal and incapable of devising anything for themselves: "Goblins survive by raiding and stealing (preferably from those who cannot defend themselves easily)...." In 3.5, it's the kobolds who have the technical proficiency with traps and contraptions, and who gain the +2 bonus to Profession (miner).

As it happens, the term kobold was originally a German word for a kind of goblin that haunted mines and other underground places. How the term came to be applied to midget reptilians, with a hatred of gnomes and trapmaking grafted onto their bloody-minded psyches, is a question best left for the archivists of earlier editions.

.

[hamishspence]

I could see The Princess & The Goblin itself owing something to Christina Rosseti's Goblin Market.

[Aldhissla]

Nearly as I can tell, Tolkein used orc and goblin interchangeably, the two words being differentiated more by local culture and linguistic artifacts than by being different races as such.

I meant to clarify that I was aware that originally all of the terms were interchangeable, sorry. Although in the vein of physical differences I tend to like the idea of them being a single race with a great amount of diversity.


I think this thread was a good starting point for LOTR D20 monster home-brew rules:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?162601-Compiled-LOTR-Monster-Thread/

And it included orcs of various kinds. Including the "minor Maia" concept for the most powerful orcs - "Boldogs" - referenced in the History of Middle Earth series.

Wow, thank you. I had scoured the internet or so I thought, but I did not come up with that link.

[ShurikVch]

In another thread, I suggested to refluff OA Bakemono

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/oa_gallery/Bakemono.jpg

[LOTRfan]

Hello, ladies and gentlemen. I see Hamishspence has linked the thread to the LOTR monsters. I feel I should mention that while the lower-level monsters (including all of the mortal Orc varieties) are probably good as they are, a lot of the other monsters need a little (or a lot) of tweaking. They're the result of a very early attempt at homebrewing, you see.

For the Boldog, I would make a lot of changes. For starters, I would drop their Con score by 6, and their mental scores by 10 each. Their Hit Points would need to be changed accordingly (for a total of 170). Initiative should be +3 unless I am missing something. Dominate Orc should be listed as Charisma-based, and have its DC changed accordingly. Blinding flash should also have a DC listed, and I would recommend making it Constitution-based.

[Aldhissla]

Oh, I wasn't dreaming nearly loftily enough to consider using even a downgraded Boldog, but thank you for the attention LOTRfan. You've done some nifty work over there on your thread.

I'm currently devising an orkish race that is to be the main player race for an uruk-centric story I'm developing, so I guess LA +0 is my ultimate goal.

[Chronos]

D&D goblins are already fairly close to Tolkien's, mechanically. They're not described as being particularly adept with machines or tactics, but they're just as intelligent and wise as humans, so there's no reason they can't use such things. And a small creature could manhandle two small creatures, if it were stronger than average for its size, just like a strong human can manhandle multiple humans.


Quoth Palanan:

As it happens, the term kobold was originally a German word for a kind of goblin that haunted mines and other underground places. How the term came to be applied to midget reptilians, with a hatred of gnomes and trapmaking grafted onto their bloody-minded psyches, is a question best left for the archivists of earlier editions.

Or just archivists of 3rd edition. In 2nd edition and earlier, kobolds were described as doglike, not reptilian.

[Aldhissla]

Very, very strange... I thought I recalled goblins having larger stat penalties.

Looking at the fact rather than my own imagination however, they look much better. For my purposes I guess I'd nix the strength penalty to make them net +0, and that's that.