(3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

[theoneorange]

What are some classes to take that can qualify me for Fiend of Possession by level 4? The requirements I am worrying about are: 6 hide, 6 knowledge arcana, and Will save 5. I have gotten DM approval to play an Ifrit from pathfinder.

[Viros]

You'll need to multiclass to reach a +5 will save by that level.

Psion synergizes well with FoP, since Psionic powers are spell-like abilities with no components, so they can be used while possessing people and items. It also has a good will save and Knowledge (arcana), but you'll have to find Hide somewhere else. There are feats for that kind of thing.

A single level of Cleric will give you at least 2 domains, plus the Knowledge domain if you decide to go Cloistered (which I recommend, since a FoP doesn't need big hit die). It's good will save stacks with that of the Psion, so you can reach the will prerequisite on time.

Some good dip domains are Pride and Destiny, which grant rerolls under different circumstances.

If you don't like losing manifesting, you can take Ardent instead of Psion. With some cheese it allows you to catch up on several levels of lost powers. The mantles can also go well with your possession abilities, if you choose the right ones.

[theoneorange]

Oh I forgot to mention that psions are not allowed.

[Viros]

Well a Marshal is charisma-based like the FoP and his auras ought to still work while he is in incorporeal form, so you might try one of those. They have a high will save as well, but no Hide or Knowledge (Arcana).

Bard and Beguiler are charisma-based, have the skills you need, and a good will save.

A Paladin seems a strange choice for a Fiend, but if you can use one of the evil variants, their divine grace may be useful in preventing banishment.

There is the curious case of the Warlock, if you are interested. Although their invocations are spell-like abilities with somatic components, you could try to get your DM to allow you to use the Supernatural Transformation feat from Savage Species on your invocations. This would make them into supernatural abilities with no components, so you could use that while possessing. Warlocks also have good will saves and knowledge arcana, but not Hide.

[theoneorange]

At the moment I am looking at Beguiler 1/ Warlock 2/ Fiend of possession 6/ Hellfire Warlock 3. After that I have no idea what I will do.

Edit: I just realized I will need levels of warlock between Fiend of possession and Hellfire Warlock.

[gorfnab]

At the moment I am looking at Beguiler 1/ Warlock 2/ Fiend of possession 6/ Hellfire Warlock 3. After that I have no idea what I will do.

Edit: I just realized I will need levels of warlock between Fiend of possession and Hellfire Warlock.
A level of Binder (binding Naberius) will help outset the Con damage from Hellfire.

Also here is a Fiend of Possession Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4354.0) that may be of some use.

[Sewercop]

how do you get subtype evil?

[Vizzerdrix]

how do you get subtype evil?

I'm assuming the Pathfinder ifrit race has it.

If you are an Outsider, you can get it by taking the divine minion template, but the only applicable god that is both evil and only a +1 LA gives just a crocodile form (Sebek or something like that).

[Sewercop]

They are not evil no. In fact they have no alignment subtype at all, so sebek wont work since it only changes it to evil. Divine minion sebek on a outsider with alignment subtype works thou.

Fast entry into this class at lvl 4 is only possible through insane cheese.

[Piggy Knowles]

I'm fond of cloistered cleric or dread necromancer (although the latter can't easily nab domains to fulfill the necessary skills). In particular, I like picking up Trickery Devotion so that, while possessing an object, I can create an illusory duplicate of myself to walk around, carry me and do my talking for me.

[John Longarrow]

Beguiler 2 / Cloistered Cleric 1 would get you the skills and will save. That said, what are you planning to do once you take people over? That will give us a better idea of what mechanics will help you achieve your goals.

[ShurikVch]

Exceptional petetioner of Abyss or Hades is Outsider with (evil) subtype, Will save +3, arbitrary amount of skillpoints and ECL 2 (assuming LA +0).
If DM is OK with it, then why not?

[Trilby]

It's not a class, but the Apprentice: Philosopher feat from DMG2 (p. 176) could probably help. It grants a knowledge skill of your choice as a class skill for all your current and future classes, plus assorted other bonuses. You can only take it at first level though, and it comes at a cost.
How playable this is, becomes very dependent on the kind of DM you play with, because you sacrifice a bit of your character's agency to their whims.

[Sewercop]

Skills
Petitioners have no skills. Previous skills are lost.
Feats
Petitioners have no feats. Previous feats are lost.

cant leave.. you`re stuck.
Petitioners suck

[atemu1234]

Rogue 1, Wizard 2, Sorcerer 1. For rogue you get your hide, for wizard you get +3 to will, and for sorcerer you get +2 to will and knowledge (arcana) for the last two. You get your ranks in, and you're good to go.

[Sewercop]

Rogue 1, Wizard 2, Sorcerer 1. For rogue you get your hide, for wizard you get +3 to will, and for sorcerer you get +2 to will and knowledge (arcana) for the last two. You get your ranks in, and you're good to go.

He wants to get in at lvl 4.
The skills and will are not an issue really, that is quite simple. The issue are outsider with subtype evil.

[ShurikVch]

Skills
Petitioners have no skills. Previous skills are lost.
Feats
Petitioners have no feats. Previous feats are lost.
I said "Exceptional"

Exceptional Petitioners
The deities may choose particular servants for specific tasks who may remember something of their previous selves. These exceptional petitioners retain the feats and skills that they had in life but are otherwise limited as the other petitioners of their plane are.


cant leave.. you`re stuck. Please, check the 3.5 update (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) for Manual of the Planes, pg. 4, PETITIONERS.

Pandemonium: Electricity and sonic immunity; cold resistance
10, acid resistance 10.
Abyss: Electricity and poison immunity; fire resistance 10, acid
resistance 10; acidic vapor, no planar commitment (as described in
Manual of the Planes).
Carceri: Cold and acid immunity; electricity resistance 10, fire
resistance 10; +10 racial bonus on Bluff checks.
Hades: Cold and fire immunity; electricity resistance 10, acid
resistance 10; wounding, disease, no planar commitment (as
described in Manual of the Planes).
Gehenna: Poison and acid immunity; fire resistance 10, cold
resistance 10; +10 racial bonus on Climb checks.
Nine Hells: Cold resistance 10, fire resistance 10; petitioners
native to Cania have immunity to cold and no resistance to fire.
Acheron: Electricity and sonic immunity; cold resistance 10,
fire resistance 10; Hearten (as described in Manual of the Planes).
Mechanus: Fire and cold immunity.

[Sewercop]

Still no la adjustment on it. or was that updated in the 3.5 part?

[ShurikVch]

Still no la adjustment on it. or was that updated in the 3.5 part?
It is 3.5 update booklet
"No LA adjustment" for template mean LA +0

[Urpriest]

It is 3.5 update booklet
"No LA adjustment" for template mean LA +0

We're talking about an actual game, kid. That kind of cheese won't fly.

[ShurikVch]

We're talking about an actual game, kid. That kind of cheese won't fly.
It's no more cheese than Fiend of Possession itself

Say, we take obscure (but still legal) LA +0 race A, use ritual B, multiclass between classes X and Y, and qualify for FoP at level 3. Will it be less cheesy?

[Urpriest]

It's no more cheese than Fiend of Possession itself

Say, we take obscure (but still legal) LA +0 race A, use ritual B, multiclass between classes X and Y, and qualify for FoP at level 3. Will it be less cheesy?

Yes. Using a "rule" that has unusable implications (if no listed LA=LA +0, there are a lot worse things than exceptional petitioner one could be) makes the game unplayable. That's a level of cheese that's incompatible with an actual game. Remember, if you use the logic on one character, it's valid on every other character.

[ShurikVch]

Yes. Using a "rule" that has unusable implications (if no listed LA=LA +0, there are a lot worse things than exceptional petitioner one could be) makes the game unplayable. That's a level of cheese that's incompatible with an actual game. Remember, if you use the logic on one character, it's valid on every other character. Such as? :smallconfused:
AFAIK, template are hardly game-breaking (and we speak only about templates, not races)
Yes, repeated application of Half-Dragon template can be very powerful, but Half-Dragon have clearly stated LA
Vampire Lord can be powerful, but it's at least for ECL 15 (more likely 18), at which point if you not crazy powerful, then you probably played strait class aristocrat or something like it
And, please, don't give me rubbish about Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) and Pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm). By ELH, they have LA, and in double digits. By SRD, they are "LA -"

[Crake]

Such as? :smallconfused:
AFAIK, template are hardly game-breaking (and we speak only about templates, not races)
Yes, repeated application of Half-Dragon template can be very powerful, but Half-Dragon have clearly stated LA
Vampire Lord can be powerful, but it's at least for ECL 15 (more likely 18), at which point if you not crazy powerful, then you probably played strait class aristocrat or something like it
And, please, don't give me rubbish about Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) and Pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm). By ELH, they have LA, and in double digits. By SRD, they are "LA -"

I don't know if you looked at the pages you linked for paragon and pseudonatural, but they dont have LA -, it's simply not listed.

[The Viscount]

Such as? :smallconfused:

Such as Bone Creature and Corpse Creature, quite famously.

No LA adjustment under no circumstances means the same thing as LA +0. Most things in 3.0 don't have LA because it wasn't how the game was played at that point. Some of these have been updated to get LA, but many still lack it.

[Urpriest]

Such as? :smallconfused:
AFAIK, template are hardly game-breaking (and we speak only about templates, not races)
Yes, repeated application of Half-Dragon template can be very powerful, but Half-Dragon have clearly stated LA
Vampire Lord can be powerful, but it's at least for ECL 15 (more likely 18), at which point if you not crazy powerful, then you probably played strait class aristocrat or something like it
And, please, don't give me rubbish about Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) and Pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm). By ELH, they have LA, and in double digits. By SRD, they are "LA -"


I don't know if you looked at the pages you linked for paragon and pseudonatural, but they dont have LA -, it's simply not listed.

That. And by ELH, specific combinations have specific values for LA, which tells you nothing about the general case, especially since example characters are notoriously messed up.

But that's a silly debate to get into in its own right. And let's leave aside the fact that, regardless, Abyssal exceptional petitioners are Manes, which are no longer a template as of FCI, and Hades exceptional petitioners are Larvae, which...actually, doing this sort of thing with a Larva would be kind of cool, but anyway...

Basically, if your ruling ("templates that don't list an LA are LA +0) were usable, then there would have to have been a general tendency of the designers to make such templates neutral in power. It's your responsibility to demonstrate that.

Just for fun, let's list a few templates that are LA +0 under your ruling. I'm not going and seeking out especially bad ones, just going through the update booklet and picking everything that didn't get an LA attached:

Einherjar (Divine Rank 0 at level 10 for no additional cost? Yes please!)
Asgardian Giant (If you're already playing a Fire or Frost Giant for some reason, again you get Divine Rank 0 for no extra cost.)
Huecuva
Swordwraith
Wendigo
Yellow Musk Zombie
(A point about those four: some templates in the Fiend Folio list an LA, some do not. If your point of view were plausible, the templates that don't list an LA would be those that are the most power-neutral. If my point of view were plausible, they would be those that are unsuitable for players. Which do you think the four templates above are?)

Those are the easiest ones to find, but there should be plenty more in unupdated 3.0 FR books.

[Necroticplague]

No LA adjustment under no circumstances means the same thing as LA +0. Most things in 3.0 don't have LA because it wasn't how the game was played at that point. Some of these have been updated to get LA, but many still lack it.

For templates, everything is "as base creature" unless it says otherwise. For races, no listed la means its unplayable, while for templates, it means it uses la of base creature, because unless it specifically says "la:-", its as the base creature.

[Urpriest]

For templates, everything is "as base creature" unless it says otherwise. For races, no listed la means its unplayable, while for templates, it means it uses la of base creature, because unless it specifically says "la:-", its as the base creature.

Indeed, this is aptly demonstrated by Yellow Musk Zombies, which are clearly suitable as PCs.

[Sewercop]

For templates, everything is "as base creature" unless it says otherwise. For races, no listed la means its unplayable, while for templates, it means it uses la of base creature, because unless it specifically says "la:-", its as the base creature.

sure thing mate

[Necroticplague]

sure thing mate

If you want a more formal rule citation:


A template’s description provides a set of instructions for altering an existing creature, known as the base creature. The changes that a template might cause to each line of a creature ’s statistics block are discussed below. Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as “Same as the base creature.”

[ShurikVch]

That. And by ELH, specific combinations have specific values for LA, which tells you nothing about the general case, especially since example characters are notoriously messed up. Straw argument. The only known templates with variable LA are Multiheaded and Mirage Mullah. The first have it for obvious reason, the second is dysfunctional


But that's a silly debate to get into in its own right. And let's leave aside the fact that, regardless, Abyssal exceptional petitioners are Manes, which are no longer a template as of FCI, and Hades exceptional petitioners are Larvae, which...actually, doing this sort of thing with a Larva would be kind of cool, but anyway... Actually, Hades have two types of petitioners, not just Larvae... And equaling Mane to Petitioner (Abyss) doesn't work, because in D&D template often not reflect to well creature which it supposed to model. Anyway, Mane is race, petitioner is template. Different rules. Like for half-fiend and cambion.


Just for fun, let's list a few templates that are LA +0 under your ruling. I'm not going and seeking out especially bad ones, just going through the update booklet and picking everything that didn't get an LA attached:

Einherjar (Divine Rank 0 at level 10 for no additional cost? Yes please!)
Asgardian Giant (If you're already playing a Fire or Frost Giant for some reason, again you get Divine Rank 0 for no extra cost.)
Huecuva
Swordwraith
Wendigo
Yellow Musk Zombie
(A point about those four: some templates in the Fiend Folio list an LA, some do not. If your point of view were plausible, the templates that don't list an LA would be those that are the most power-neutral. If my point of view were plausible, they would be those that are unsuitable for players. Which do you think the four templates above are?)

Those are the easiest ones to find, but there should be plenty more in unupdated 3.0 FR books. Einherjar - you get it wrong. It's not give 10 levels for free, you need to be 10th level to get it. And at 10th level, Div. rank 0 is not too impressive, unless you fight gods
Asgardian Giant is not a template at all, just variant
Wendigo have LA +4
and Yellow Musk Zombie is mindless and live about one month

[Urpriest]

Straw argument. The only known templates with variable LA are Multiheaded and Mirage Mullah. The first have it for obvious reason, the second is dysfunctional

...why?



Actually, Hades have two types of petitioners, not just Larvae... And equaling Mane to Petitioner (Abyss) doesn't work, because in D&D template often not reflect to well creature which it supposed to model. Anyway, Mane is race, petitioner is template. Different rules. Like for half-fiend and cambion.

Larvae and Manes are the ones with no planar commitment, though, and thus the ones that the stats are for.



Einherjar - you get it wrong. It's not give 10 levels for free, you need to be 10th level to get it.

No, I got it right, since that was precisely what I said.


And at 10th level, Div. rank 0 is not too impressive, unless you fight gods

Considering that it's something Dragons can only get with 12 levels of an otherwise useless prestige class, the rules seem to disagree with you.



Asgardian Giant is not a template at all, just variant

A variant that, according to you, does not have any extra LA.



Wendigo have LA +4

Just the sample one.



and Yellow Musk Zombie is mindless and live about one month

Which is why they should have LA --. But according to you, they have LA +0.

[Necroticplague]

Which is why they should have LA --. But according to you, they have LA +0.

Why should it be la-? The template doesn't say they change the la of the base creature , so there's no rules reason it should take you from la:something to la - (as per rules quoted earlier). I agree, it's stupid as heck (given how being a musk zombie is shooting yourself in the foot with a grenade launcher), but it is what it is. And just to point out precedence for things that can't take class levels being playable, the hairy spider is outright mindless, but had an la of +0.

[Urpriest]

Why should it be la-? The template doesn't say they change the la of the base creature , so there's no rules reason it should take you from la:something to la - (as per rules quoted earlier). I agree, it's stupid as heck (given how being a musk zombie is shooting yourself in the foot with a grenade launcher), but it is what it is. And just to point out precedence for things that can't take class levels being playable, the hairy spider is outright mindless, but had an la of +0.

Should not in the mathematical sense, but in the playability sense. In order to have a level adjustment system that is playable in all cases, Yellow Musk Zombie should have LA --. Thus any interpretation that gives Yellow Musk Zombie LA +0 is unusable and should not be suggested in threads where people are asking for advice for actual games.

[Sewercop]

from the srd
Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics

so if a template changes the monster and has no la it is not suitable yes?

[ShurikVch]

...why? Because of Oasis Dependent. What's the point to have playable LA, if you can't abandon the Fey Oasis without being dead or crippled for life (-1 to Str, Con, and Cha? Ouch!..) And, even if you survive it, you lose the template. The only apparent uses of this template for PC is if: 1) Whole adventure happened withing the very same oasis, or 2) Mirage Mullah carry the Fey Oasis around with him :smallbiggrin:


Considering that it's something Dragons can only get with 12 levels of an otherwise useless prestige class, the rules seem to disagree with you. Please, check the Tier System for PrC. How many Bad and Catastrophic tiers? So one more bad PrC is nothing to be surprised. (And Draconomicon PrCs intended-for-thrue-dragons are infamous for their low quality. Even those of them whith actually decent CFs, have crippling prerequisites. Maybe, there is some exception or two, bt still...) And abilities from DvR 0 are hardly game-shattering at level 10. What's it can give, which you can't get from party's buffer or good old Christmas Tree effect? Only immunity to certain SDAs...


A variant that, according to you, does not have any extra LA. A variant of creature is still a creature, so rules for template not applicable


Just the sample one. You suggest Wendigo is LA +0, and +4 is from somewhere else? Come on, name me non-templated non-outsider with LA +4 and without racial HD


Which is why they should have LA --. But according to you, they have LA +0. Maybe it's planned for rare cases when PC actually afflicted with YMC? If party's druid still doesn't high-level enough to cast Heal, he can cast Command Plants...

[Urpriest]

Because of Oasis Dependent. What's the point to have playable LA, if you can't abandon the Fey Oasis without being dead or crippled for life (-1 to Str, Con, and Cha? Ouch!..) And, even if you survive it, you lose the template. The only apparent uses of this template for PC is if: 1) Whole adventure happened withing the very same oasis, or 2) Mirage Mullah carry the Fey Oasis around with him :smallbiggrin:

Here's the thing: by your logic, Petitioners have LA +0 regardless of whether they have Planar Commitment. So you don't actually think this is dysfunctional, and your attempts to reject it as an example are disingenuous and can be ignored for the purposes of this discussion.



Please, check the Tier System for PrC. How many Bad and Catastrophic tiers? So one more bad PrC is nothing to be surprised. (And Draconomicon PrCs intended-for-thrue-dragons are infamous for their low quality. Even those of them whith actually decent CFs, have crippling prerequisites. Maybe, there is some exception or two, bt still...) And abilities from DvR 0 are hardly game-shattering at level 10. What's it can give, which you can't get from party's buffer or good old Christmas Tree effect? Only immunity to certain SDAs...

DR anything/epic is dysfunctional ten levels before anyone gets epic weapons, no matter how low the actual DR number. Similarly, SR 32 is not exactly trivial for a 10th level character.



A variant of creature is still a creature, so rules for template not applicable

I'll concede this one, as long as you concede it also applies to Sovereign Archetypes.



You suggest Wendigo is LA +0, and +4 is from somewhere else? Come on, name me non-templated non-outsider with LA +4 and without racial HD

Since the Mirage Mullah example still stands, we can consider that. Or the fact that example characters are not rules text. But regardless,



Maybe it's planned for rare cases when PC actually afflicted with YMC? If party's druid still doesn't high-level enough to cast Heal, he can cast Command Plants...

At which point the player is no longer playing the PC. I don't think a situation in which one is not played makes one suitable to be played.

[Necroticplague]

so if a template changes the monster and has no la it is not suitable yes?
Yes. However, there's a difference between adding a template with la- (not suitable) and not stated, thanks to this:

Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description.
So if the "LA:" entry is missing, it does not change the la of the base creature. So adding such a template does not make a creature unsuitable for play.


Should not in the mathematical sense, but in the playability sense. In order to have a level adjustment system that is playable in all cases, Yellow Musk Zombie should have LA --. Thus any interpretation that gives Yellow Musk Zombie LA +0 is unusable and should not be suggested in threads where people are asking for advice for actual games.

Not la +0, la as base creature. What's wrong with having yellow musk zombies being playable? They aren't mindless (int2, not -), though one of their traits copies the main downside of such. However, dragonborn would get rid of that trait, allowing them to continue on using their class levels, feats, and skills. Sure, it would suck for anyone, but its possible. Heck, even free them of that annoying tree creeper loyalty.

[Sewercop]

you are reading the improving monsters with templates. You need to read the monsters as races where it says:
Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics.

Ill quote the texts since you only bother to quote parts of it.


Starting Level of a Monster PC
Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics. Add a monster’s level adjustment to its Humanoids and Class Levels to get the creature’s effective character level, or ECL. Effectively, monsters with a level adjustment become multiclass character when they take class levels. A creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it.

now to what you read under improving monsters


Reading A Template
A template’s description provides a set of instructions for altering an existing creature, known as the base creature. The changes that a template might cause to each line of a creature’s statistics block are discussed below. Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as "Same as the base creature."

you are going to point out that it says level adjustment lower and thats fine.. so nothing means no la, i agree. Because no la means its not for players. Not la 0

[Piggy Knowles]

The argument that templates without a listed LA are always LA +0 is so dang suspect, I find it hard to believe people actually argue it with a straight face. It's a combination of poor editing and improper conversion between 3.0 and 3.5; old templates that lacked an LA because they were not intended as player options weren't always assigned "LA --" in the update booklets, which were notoriously rushed and incomplete. If the default assumption was to consider any templates without a listed LA as LA +0, then what would be the point of having LA +0 in the first place? Why would templates bother listing it at all?

But instead of taking the remotely reasonable thought that an unlisted LA puts a template in that grey "ask your DM" category, there are constantly people who try to argue it as legitimate. Never mind the fact that most of what is suggested is way out of line compared to other expressly kosher LA +0 templates, like amphibious or primordial giant. Taking an editing mistake and holding it up as holy writ makes about as much sense to me as insisting that the Vigilante class gets 33 third level spells per day.

[ShurikVch]

Here's the thing: by your logic, Petitioners have LA +0 regardless of whether they have Planar Commitment. So you don't actually think this is dysfunctional, and your attempts to reject it as an example are disingenuous and can be ignored for the purposes of this discussion. Oasis is rather restricted space. Plane can be more than infinite (because it composed of multiple layers, some of which are infinite). Nothing wrong to have a whole adventure path "1to20" at the same Outer Plane.


DR anything/epic is dysfunctional ten levels before anyone gets epic weapons, no matter how low the actual DR number. Similarly, SR 32 is not exactly trivial for a 10th level character. Force Bow. Axe of Molydeus. Mantle of Pure Spite (http://dndtools.eu/spells/heroes-of-horror--70/mantle-of-pure-spite--1442/). All of this allow to flat out ignore any DR, period. Also, at level 10 in melee DR 10 is barely a speed bump. And SR... Come on! Who in their right mind rely on SR? If 1st level character can overcome SR ∞, than what's the point to complain about PC with it?



The argument that templates without a listed LA are always LA +0 is so dang suspect, I find it hard to believe people actually argue it with a straight face.It's RAW. Say, most of templates don't list speed. Does it mean templated creature have "Speed: -" :smallconfused:


It's a combination of poor editing and improper conversion between 3.0 and 3.5; old templates that lacked an LA because they were not intended as player options weren't always assigned "LA --" in the update booklets, which were notoriously rushed and incomplete. Underdark is a 3.5 book. Arachnoid Creature is a template without listed LA. Deal with it! :smalltongue:
If the default assumption was to consider any templates without a listed LA as LA +0, then what would be the point of having LA +0 in the first place? Why would templates bother listing it at all? Indeed! If the default assumption was to consider any templates without a listed LA as "LA --", then what would be the point of having "LA --" in the first place? Why would templates bother listing it at all?


But instead of taking the remotely reasonable thought that an unlisted LA puts a template in that grey "ask your DM" category Isn't it supposed to be ask DM about any and all templates, races, feats, classes and spells?

Never mind the fact that most of what is suggested is way out of line compared to other expressly kosher LA +0 templates, like amphibious or primordial giant. Well known fact: some templates are strait better then other of the same LA value. For LA +1 it's Half-Minotaur, Lolth-Touched and Mineral Warrior. For +2 it's Saint and Phrenic Creature. Why the +0 can't have it's one undiscovered gems?

Taking an editing mistake and holding it up as holy writ makes about as much sense to me as insisting that the Vigilante class gets 33 third level spells per day. Oh, editing mistakes... OK, let's start. Vampire's LA +8 is clearly an editing mistake - sample vampire have only +5. Do I need to continue?.. :smallamused:

[Sewercop]

Oh, editing mistakes... OK, let's start. Vampire's LA +8 is clearly an editing mistake - sample vampire have only +5. Do I need to continue?.. :smallamused:

Id like you to continue and answer the post i did before this one.

[atemu1234]

Well, yellow musk zombies are unplayable because they're under the control of a creeper, not because of their LA.

[Necroticplague]

Well, yellow musk zombies are unplayable because they're under the control of a creeper, not because of their LA.

A dragonborn musk zombie would lose the trait that puts it under control of the creeper.

Also, voidmind creatures are similarly under the control of a trio of illithids, but are actually given an la of +3 (though technically, their immune to it due to immune to mind-effecting.)

[atemu1234]

Indeed! If the default assumption was to consider any templates without a listed LA as "LA --", then what would be the point of having "LA --" in the first place? Why would templates bother listing it at all?

The same reason some list feats and skills as "same as base creature"?

[Vaz]

Should not in the mathematical sense, but in the playability sense. In order to have a level adjustment system that is playable in all cases, Yellow Musk Zombie should have LA --. Thus any interpretation that gives Yellow Musk Zombie LA +0 is unusable and should not be suggested in threads where people are asking for advice for actual games.

The thing is, that is in direct contradiction to what the rules say. But the rules includes Drown Healing.

I'm not saying you're wrong, that it should be LA--, but it often comes up where the system writers mastery is not what it should be (Ride by attack?) and they forget what they are actually writing; look at how poorly written Lycantrhopy is for example as well.

I'm not a fan of saying 'ah well, rule zero will sort it out' but in this instance, it applies especially. Similar to preventing Pun Pun and Droan Healing.

@Necroticplague the problem with dragonborn is its fluff prereqs which are fairly hefty for something lacking the free will to dedicate itself to it.

[Necroticplague]

@Necroticplague the problem with dragonborn is its fluff prereqs which are fairly hefty for something lacking the free will to dedicate itself to it.

What lack of free will? The zombies aren't mindless, they can still think on their own (if not very well). Serving its parent plant and a god aren't mutually exclusive, though admitedely, the amnesia makes it difficult.

[Urpriest]

Oasis is rather restricted space. Plane can be more than infinite (because it composed of multiple layers, some of which are infinite). Nothing wrong to have a whole adventure path "1to20" at the same Outer Plane.

Or indeed, in the same Oasis. But anyway, this was a silly argument to get into, since the dysfunction in location has nothing to do with why the LA varies, and the template also lists a (different) CR so it's not just a misprint. Variable LA is clearly within the design space.



Force Bow. Axe of Molydeus. Mantle of Pure Spite (http://dndtools.eu/spells/heroes-of-horror--70/mantle-of-pure-spite--1442/). All of this allow to flat out ignore any DR, period.

And are thus irrelevant, since they would apply the same way to DR 10/-.


Also, at level 10 in melee DR 10 is barely a speed bump.

Likewise.



And SR... Come on! Who in their right mind rely on SR? If 1st level character can overcome SR ∞, than what's the point to complain about PC with it?


Every defense can be overcome. That doesn't mean that good defenses are meaningless.



Oh, editing mistakes... OK, let's start. Vampire's LA +8 is clearly an editing mistake - sample vampire have only +5. Do I need to continue?.. :smallamused:

Text before table, dahlink. If you want to be Curmudgeonesquely RAW-anal, you have to talk the talk.

[Vaz]

Yellow musk zombies always act to protect and nurture the yellow musk creeper that created them
That's the first bit. ALWAYS. How can you dedicate yourself to fighting Tiamat's schemes that being a Dragonborn requires of you, when you're more dedicated to defending the creeper. And this is about qualification; I understand that once you become a Dragonborn, you'd then lose that requirement, but getting to be a Dragonborn in the first place is the problem.

And again;


Same as the base creature, except that the yellow musk zombie has an Intelligence of 2
When you have the same Intelligence as a dog (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI22jRmbZVg), can you really dedicate yourself to a concept like the destruction of the goals of Intermediate level deity?

I'd posit; No.

[Necroticplague]

That's the first bit. ALWAYS. How can you dedicate yourself to fighting Tiamat's schemes that being a Dragonborn requires of you, when you're more dedicated to defending the creeper. And this is about qualification; I understand that once you become a Dragonborn, you'd then lose that requirement, but getting to be a Dragonborn in the first place is the problem.

And again;


When you have the same Intelligence as a dog (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI22jRmbZVg), can you really dedicate yourself to a concept like the destruction of the goals of Intermediate level deity?

I'd posit; No.
Because those two goals don't have to conflict. You can destroy the spawn of Tiamat in order to protect the vine. If an area is rife with such spawn whose goals appear that of the creeper's, having some spawn devoted to such would even be sensible.

Yes, given that faith is not represented by intelligence. Given the precedence set by classes that actually ask their god for power, like clerics and paladins, have the power of faith being a combination of charisma and wisdom, which go conviniently left at human levels.

[Vaz]

It's animal intelligence though. YMZ's have Int 2.


An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of humanlike intelligence has scores of at least 3.
PHB.

I'm fairly sure as well that its considered unplayable if Int is <3, although I cannot remember where that quote is.

[Necroticplague]

It's animal intelligence though. YMZ's have Int 2.


PHB.

I'm fairly sure as well that its considered unplayable if Int is <3, although I cannot remember where that quote is.

Well, the quote about having enough intelligence to be playable comes from the template rules itself, if thats what you're looking for.

Level Adjustment

This entry is a modifier to the base creature’s level adjustment. Any level adjustment is meaningless unless the creature retains a high enough Intelligence (minimum 3) to gain class levels after applying the template.

Of course, the INT problem can be taken care of by simply advancing HD until you get a stat point, than put it into intelligence to raise it up to three. Which makes it a less severe problem than for some templates that are given LA, but can end up with INT2 (mineral warrior) or are mindless (Dustform).

[Vaz]

The ritual takes 48 hours IIRC to complete; and you live for an average of 60 hours post freedom. Before then, you are limited to looking after your mother plant; and dedicating yourself to a fight against a Deity when you have no concept of what that deity is/what a deity is, is not going to haopen.

So you have 12 hours average to travel far enough and earn enough experience to gain between 1 and 4 HD that you will increase in intelligence natively, and then understand the concept of what Tiamat is and why it is you who must answer Bahamuts calling and become a Dragonborn, then craft your egg and begin the 2 day ritual.

If that is what you call "playable", and "dragonborn qualifiable" feel free.

One of the many things people forget are the Fluff restrictions within the text. It is why Paragnostic Assembly doesn't help with Truenaming Checks in the optimization idea for example.

[Necroticplague]

The ritual takes 48 hours IIRC to complete; and you live for an average of 60 hours post freedom. Before then, you are limited to looking after your mother plant; and dedicating yourself to a fight against a Deity when you have no concept of what that deity is/what a deity is, is not going to happen.

So you have 12 hours average to travel far enough and earn enough experience to gain between 1 and 4 HD that you will increase in intelligence natively, and then understand the concept of what Tiamat is and why it is you who must answer Bahamuts calling and become a Dragonborn, then craft your egg and begin the 2 day ritual.

If that is what you call "playable", and "dragonborn qualifiable" feel free.

One of the many things people forget are the Fluff restrictions within the text. It is why Paragnostic Assembly doesn't help with Truenaming Checks in the optimizations ideal by the way as well.

Except you don't have to earn the HD for the INT boost while free. You can do that while you serve your plant. Besides, I never said it was likely, or even a good idea, just that it is theoretically possible.