The Distinctive Hobgoblin, Goblin, and Orc

[droppedbutnot]

I'd appreciate some advice on making some of the "grunt" humanoid races more distinctive. In particular, I'm interested in fleshing out hobgoblins, but while I'm at it, I may as well have orcs and goblins a little more defined as well. Perhaps there are good sources, threads, links, ideas that you know of or can share. (I checked out the Slayer's Guide to Hobgoblins, but didn't find it all that well done, even though it provoked some ideas in me.) Thanks in advance.

:cool::cool::cool:

[Blightedmarsh]

Is this a mechanics question or a fluff question?

For fluff:

In general I recommend coming up with a theme and by and large sticking to it. Remember that these creatures are "people" but don't accidentally make them funny skinned humans. I would also recommend not making them a copy of a popularly recognized culture. Come up with something new, alter something old to be unrecognizable and/or use a culture your players won't recognize instantly.

Remember that this society should just be more than just a cardboard cut out but try not to get bogged down in the details. Your players may not be interested in the fine detail of hobgoblin courtship rituals. I would suggest doing a basic framework and giving the impression that there is a lot more to it than that. If the players take an interest and take a closer look then make up the details as you go.

[EisenKreutzer]

If this is about fluff:

Theres already some differentiation between the three in the core books. Especially hobgoblins have their own distinct personality, being a martial, militaristic society and primarily Lawful Evil, as opposed to the Chaotic rabble of the Orcs and Goblins.

I could give an example from my own campaign setting though.

In my homebrew world, the Orcs are a tribal, animistic society loosely based on the medieval mongol horde. They are ancestor-worshipping nomads who revere great heroes from orcish history, and pay tribute to powerful animal and nature spirits. They ride powerful dire boars, and their culture is heavily based around these boars, which are ridden, milked, eaten and even worshipped at certain festivals. These Orcs are a spiritual people, and while they are both evil and malevolent, they have a unique culture that is distinct from the other races.

The Hobgoblins in my world control their own empire, a persian/arabian-inspired totalitarian society ruled by a bloodthirsty Hobgoblin emperor.
This is an empire of harsh, merciless laws, strict religious commandments and violent public punishment of lawbreakers and sinners.
The Hobgoblins use Goblins as slaves, both for labour and war.

I have to admit that the Goblins themselves haven't recieved much in the way of a background treatment, and are pretty much just personality-less goons and violent bullies. Though IMO Goblins should, like Kobolds, be devious, conniving little bastards with surprisingly impressive malevolent imaginations when it comes to battle plans, tactics and especially traps.

[AugustNights]

I rather liked Kingdoms of Kalamar approach to Hobgoblins, making them a brutal warrior culture steeped in a deep tradition of preserving their honor. I think one of the quotes that rather stuck out was I'd rather deserve honor and not have it, than have honor and not deserve it.

In my own campaign settings I tend to run the lot like this:

In the past...

Orcs were once a nomadic race of hunter-gatherers, who practiced rich oral traditions, and drummed the great drumming and danced the great dance, to keep the stars at bay, to keep the far reaches away. They worshiped not gods, but feared monsters. They were known to be aggressively territorial, and their war with Elves didn't begin until the forests began to stretch onto the Orcish veldts. Whoever started the war is pointless to argue about, for atrocities occurred on both ends...
Orcs prefer axes.

Hob-Goblins, the deep-mining, and fortress building race of goblinoids, had constructed an Iron Kingdom, of twisted cold iron spires and horribly well wrought weapons. Some theorize that elvencraft swords were modeled after Hob-Goblin commander's weapons. The Iron Kingdom rose up in the cold lands to the north-west, where only the brutal Hob-goblins could live "comfortably," and soon they brought war to the kinfolk lands. Cleverly, they employed spies and bought traitors in the elven forests, and split the war on the elves. Utilizing the Orcish War on the south of the Elven Arcadias to their advantage, they assaulted from the North. It is said for the greed of one General Warg, that Hob-goblin kingdom split, and collapsed on itself...
Hob-goblins prefer swords.

Bugbears are solitary. They are misanthropic and misgoblinistic. Bugbears loath company, but adore a warm hole, adorned with broken down human-comfort items. They display grisly trophies over fires built on the planks of recently raided farm-house. They read books stolen as lesser humanoids' flesh crackles over the fire, and smoke simple tobacco-herbs from femur-pipes as they tear out the pages that offend. They hunt by night, and through banditry, never taking on enemies that they think they might lose to.
Bugbears prefer maces and hammers.


In the present...

Orcs were the first goblinoid race to be recognized by the Human Empire as citizens. Eventually all goblinoid races gained the status as citizens, but many goblinoids ignore this or care little. Anti-goblinoid issues are common never the less.

Orcs are common in humanoid civilizations and have adapted considerably from their former roots. Many orcs have gains rank in humanoid courts, and there is rumor of Orcish Royalty to be introduced by the Emperor herself. If orcs are given a small sovreign nation, it will be an insulting blow to the elves, and a jubilant day for goblinkind everywhere (for those who care anyhow). At worst orcs are considered ugly strong humans, at best they are simply considered another member of the society.
Many orcs wish to return to the old ways, and fear their "domestication" is threatening the safety of the world...

Hob-goblins broke down into mercenary groups and pirate bands shortly after the fall of their Iron Kingdom. An abundance of soldiers suddenly no longer had orders to follow nor a kingdom to defend. Not wishing to break rank and file, many Hob-goblin groups still use the titles from their former state. Hobgoblins tend towards vicious and devastatingly violent robberies and mercenary work. They're employers often use them for handling other goblinoids. Orcs have said that the Hobgoblins only changed one king for another, when they stopped following the Iron Tyrant and started following the orders of those with gold...

Bugbears fit... awkwardly at best in humanoid settlements. Most bugbears still live the old life, but with so many hobgoblin mercenaries happy to put a bugbear's head on a pike for a few spare coins, they've had to move farther out. Many now pick on goblinoids, rather than their preferred humanoid targets. They specifically hunt goblins, being the weakest of their kinfolk. Integrated bugbears often find themselves working at, and occasionally owning, dive bars where violence is not uncommon. Their strong but surly nature makes them excellent bar-tenders and famously good rumor mongers, while their underhanded nature makes them ideal candidates for body-guards in the various underground guilds of the world. Bugbears seem to get the worst of antigoblinoid treatment, likely due to their extreme reticence to let go of their cannibalistic ways. Unconfirmed rumors have spread about various bugbears orchestrating body-disposal services for various assassins at incredibly reasonable prices, naturally, as long as the meat is edible....


I also like the idea that Humanoids and Goblinoids have opposites, that are specifically at odds. I usually map it out like so;

Orcs oppose Elves
Goblins oppose Dwarves
Kobolds oppose Gnomes
Hobgoblins oppose Humans
Bugbears oppose Halflings

[atomicwaffle]

I've always put hobgoblins somewhere in the vicinity of the Fighting Uruk-Hai, just not as tough. They are regimented, coordinated and fierce combatants. They use tactics like hit and run, skirmishes, or setting ambushes. It's not uncommon to see about 5 - 20 of them as part of a mercenary group, usually led by a sorcerer or an unusually smart bugbear.

Orcs are usually raiders. They love a good smash and grab. In my world half-orcs sort of take a divergent evolutionary path resulting in both half-orcs and orcs, so not all half-orcs are the product of rape etc. Orcs make good pirates and evil adventurers. Group of orcs decide to travel the land causing havoc. They are hated by everyone, even half-orcs who see them as a shame to their heritage.

Goblins are all about trickery. Spoiling food, stealing or killing livestock, terrorizing children. When they fight they try to overwhelm with numbers. They are easily scared into surrendering once theyve been outmatched (usually a trick for an ambush. useful if your group has a paladin). They will also follow a 'tough guy' (something tougher or smarter than them) out of either fear or admiration.

[Toliudar]

In the spirit of quick and dirty campaign building, I've actually had good success stealing from Star Trek. The hobgoblins make excellent Romulans, the orcs are Klingons and the goblins are ferengi. It dovetails better than you might think.

[Psyren]

The ARG entries on the three races have some fluff notes you can pilfer. Goblin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-goblin), Hobgoblin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-hobgoblin), Orc. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-orc)

[squiggit]

In the spirit of quick and dirty campaign building, I've actually had good success stealing from Star Trek. The hobgoblins make excellent Romulans, the orcs are Klingons and the goblins are ferengi. It dovetails better than you might think.

After a bit of thought I realized this works really well. It's a slightly nonstandard portrayal for orcs and goblins, but not in a bad way an it's spot on for hobgoblins. It adds a little more to the orcs than them simply being generic savages who attack whatever so adventurers can get XP... and it makes goblins something other than "weaker, sneakier orcs". Which I always thought was a pretty boring portrayal.

[Zombulian]

It's funny that this thread should appear, because just yesterday I was thinking of a setting where hobgoblins were in charge of crime syndicates and mobster families. Was still working with what the other goblinoids would do.

[squiggit]

It's funny that this thread should appear, because just yesterday I was thinking of a setting where hobgoblins were in charge of crime syndicates and mobster families. Was still working with what the other goblinoids would do.

That sounds pretty awesome (and not a huge departure from baseline) too.

Personally I prefer more industrious goblins (Tolkien and Warcraft for instance, though not necessarily as extreme as Warcraft), never liked how kobolds were given all of that and goblins were just left as slightly different orcs (which to be fair is a decent portrayal given the history of the words, just not exciting).

Orcs make good enforcers and... I honestly think 'default' orcs aren't that bad other than being a bit one dimensional.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I have a completely different interpretation of hobgoblins, goblins, and orcs (and also drow) in my setting, as I was looking to throw out the "always evil" interpretation that's rather common and also knew next to nothing about the "official" lore. I don't have much time to go into it because I need to study, but these are the basics that I used.

Most people lump orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, and drow into one group called "Plavaan," because most of them live in nomadic to semi-nomadic tribes on the Alavaan Plains on the continent, though the drow are semi-nomadic and live in the swamps to the south (sorry, no Underdark in my setting). The greatest distinctions that majority of people make among the groups are that orcs are brutal barbarians, hobgoblins are like orcs but less feral and more controlled, drow are crafty and sly and cunning and won't hesitate to backstab you, and goblins are like common criminal vermin with occasional flashes of cunning.

The truth is much more complex. I really don't have much time to get into it, but the general trends are:

Orcish society is proud and values physical strength above all else. They place great importance in tribal and family cohesion and their coming-of-age ceremonies reflect this. Their music tends to have strong drumbeats and there are very few solo pieces. They are almost completely nomadic and follow herds. Their tribes often come into conflict with each other and other Plavaan tribes, though they will band together for a common cause or in the face of a greater threat.

Hobgoblin tribes vary greatly, but they have more of a top-down structure than the majority of orc tribes. They are more sedentary and also value strength, but not to as great an extent. Actually, they value honesty and valor, they place great respect in someone who struggles and endures in any endeavor, whether it be physical or mental.

Goblin tribes tend to be more impulsive, and tend towards the spiritual. They have many seers, clerics, mages, and shamans, and place a lot of stock in old traditions and supersititon. Some tribes engage in ancestor worship along with worshipping their god. Only some of the tribes ride worgs. Goblin tribes are perhaps the most varied of all.

Drow society is the most sedentary, though they do migrate to avoid the floods. Yes, they do value spiders in their society, but not for the reason you'd think. They do value intelligence and foresight and intellectual endeavors over physical ones. While they do want to plan for possible contingencies and look to cover their own ass, that doesn't necessarily mean evil. I can't really get into too much detail right now; sorry.

But of course, these are just broad generalizations. And the really interesting things happen when these races are driven out of their homes and forced to migrate to cities of humanoids, and are forced to intermingle and deal with a majority population who sees them all as identical even though they themselves do not...

[VoxRationis]

In one of my campaign settings, the orcs are simple creatures that live in small bands in the hills and mountains of various locations. They don't organize themselves into large societies on their own (low Intelligence and Charisma inhibits society-building), so they are only encountered by civilized humanoids when some aspiring Dark Lord decides they would make good shock troops and press-gangs a few thousand of them into service; hence, they have an unfair but not entirely undeserved reputation as raiding, pillaging brutes.
Goblins in that same setting are just as capable of civilization-building as humans are, and have built great and wondrous cities, but most in the pseudo-European region are uncivilized bands because they're refugees from a war consuming their homeland. Many (but not even a majority) of these bands take to banditry, providing fodder for "clear out this dungeon full of goblins" adventures, but adventurers who immediately see goblins and decide to kill them are unreasonable.

[Psyren]

I don't portray them as evil (though there certainly are evil members of those races that my PCs would come across.) I tend more towards portraying them as savage/brutal, similar to Aiel from WoT, with a very complex honor system that can lead to outsiders getting skewered due to committing obscure slights.

I think the earlier comparison to Klingons, Romulans and Ferengi was fairly apt.

[Shining Wrath]

Hobgoblins

In Eberron, the Hobgoblins had their own empire before the humans, which they lost in combat with aberrations. In Tome of Battle, the Hobgoblins were the founders of the Iron Heart school, one of the more seriously badass schools. Both of these fit in with my thinking.

I think of Hobgoblins as a warrior culture, where if you challenge the leader to single combat and win the second in command will honor the deal and let you go. Evil because everything is built around war, and so pretexts for war are easily found, and also pretexts for not keeping exactly to the spirit of an agreement.

Orcs

In Eberron, orcs had an empire even before hobgoblins, and are closely tied to nature and keeping the gates shut between Eberron and other planes. I don't think that's what you want, it's too closely tied to the backstory for that one setting.

I think of orcs as being an ancient race, too chaotic to build empires but always on the fringes of "civilization", and very adaptable. Orcs are capable of eking out survival in almost any terrain and making use of almost any resource. So orcs are very widespread, with low population density, and when humans / others "discover" a region they tend to find orcs there first. I don't think of orcs as being as evil as hobgoblins, although given the right circumstances (like being driven out of their ancestral homes) they can certainly get there.

Goblins

Goblins are usually found enslaved by someone. They have "cannon fodder" written all over them in most settings. I think this is suitable. Different tribes tend to share a common skin color, and I'd expect them to be very tribal in their thinking, as they can only survive in groups. OTOH, they also have a "crabs in a bucket" mentality where they tend to envy anyone who rises above the pack and pull them back down, and a willingness to sell their own mother to the bugbears for stew if they can (dimly) reason a way to come out ahead by doing so. Nasty little creatures, thought of by hobgoblins as having no honor (correctly) and the orcs think of them as not very bright nor as hardworking as orcs (somewhat correctly).

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'm personally rather fond of Eberron's take on Hobgoblins, Drows and Orcs.

Hobgoblins actually founded the largest and longest humanoid empire in Khorvaire (the setting main continenet) about 16,000 years before the game's timeline, it lasted 10,000 years; the empire fell to Civil war and internal power struggle, it is noteworthy to say that the last Dhakaani emperor was called the "Shaking Emperor". Either way, after the fall of their empire the Hobgoblin settled in warring tribes, who where normally used as Mercenaries throughout Khorvaire's history usually serving under house Deneith. After the Last War, Lhesh Haruuck warlord of the Ghaal'dar clan lead a revolution against House Deneith and carved a Kingdom (Darguun) for himself in the remnants of Cyran land. He united several other clans under his banner, mostly through power and the hope to regain the might of the ancient Dhakaani empire. Their society is militaristic with a great deal of emphasis on martial prowess, though they have expert craftsmen, thought they usually usually focus on weapon and armor smiting. They are a Lawful Evil society at heart, but I have to make note that Alignment is a lot greyer in Eberron than in other settings, for example the LE Vampire King of a Necromantic kingdom is actively working to maintain the strained peace in Khorvaire, while the NG queen of Aundair is bidding her time to increase her kingdom strength to conquer the other nations and unite the whole of Khorvaire under her rule.

Sadly other goblinoids like goblins or bugbears are pretty much the same as other settings, usually semi-savage tribes normally lead by the strongest member of it, though many tribes have gone to Darguun and work with (or for) the Hobgoblin tribes.

Their take of Orc is definitely my favourite one, tribal societies who live in the Shadow Marshes, they were the first humanoids to learn druidic traditions (from Vvaraak, a black Dragon druid) and used those powers to protect Khorvaire form the natural incursions of the Daelkyr and other transdimensional threats. There are other tribes, but I'm most familiar with the Shadow Marshes' one. As a side note, they don't consider half-orcs to be an aberration or anything like that, they instead consider them a blessing, a "children of two bloods" and claim that is proof that humans and orcs where once the same race. Pretty neat in my opinion.

Not all Eberronian Drow live in Khyber (Eberron's underdark), most of them hail from the Island continent of Xen'driks where they once were slaves to the powerful Giants whos stood there, after the fall of the Giant empire the Drow separated in three main groups, the Sulatar a group of drow who stayed loyal to the giants and wait for the return of their master, hoping their loyalty will convince their master to grant them entry into their promised land of fire. They have mastery of Elemental binding (particularly fire) and people theorize that many of the elemental binding technique developed by the Gnomes of Zhilargo is based on their own knowledge. They are pretty isolationist and prefer to keep to themselves unless they enter in conflict with Vulkorian drows.

The Vulkorian drows where the ones who lead the revolution against the giant by forming an alliance with the monstrous scorpions native to Xen'drik, they revere the scorpion god Vulkor and other arachnids, though scorpions are obviously revered a lot more. They group in nomadic tribes that travel through out Xen'driks jungle, never staying in a single place more than strictly necessary.

Finally there are the Umbragen drows, they fled to the depths of Khyber during the dragon attack on Xen'drik, moving throught it until they finally settled under the Ring of Storms, they formed a sort of symbiotic relationship with a force known as "Umbra" which helped them to survive. Sadly for them, they have been on a loosing war against the armies of Aberrations that live in Khyber for the last couple of decades and therefore they have begun to send groups of drows above ground to look for a weapon that might tip the tide of war in their favor.

[BWR]

In Mystara, goblins and hobgoblins are descended from orcs, who in turn are descended from evil spirits reincarnated into bestial form by the Immortals to punish them. So they literally have the decks stacked against them all the way. They often try to better themselves but are caught in a vicious cycle of being violent and brutal because everyone hates them, and everyone hating them because they are brutal and violent.
There are exceptions - one small group of orcs left behind after a failed war with the elven kingdom of Alfheim sued for peace and to everyone's surprise settled down making an honest living in elf lands.

[Envyus]

It should be noted again that in most settings Orcs are not related to Hobgoblins, Goblins and Bugbears. And you should make it a point that they are not related to one another.

Anyway I see Hobgoblins as pretty much the spartans. Horrible but effective and lawful. Goblins are sneaks and cowards that are generally forced to work for more powerful groups. Bugbears are large and strong brutes with a chaotic bend that prevents them from organizing too well. But despite their appearance and attitude they are surprisingly smart and have a great deal of guile, most preferring to be sneaky rogue types rather then front line fighters. Goblins and Bugbears both tend to find themselves in the employ of Hobs or sometimes a more intelligent Bugbear will take charge of a group of goblinoids.

[Thealtruistorc]

Dragon Webzine #419 had a really great writeup on hobgoblins, giving in-depth analysis on their history and culture. I would advise checking it out if you don't mind making use of 4e content.

[Jeff the Green]

In my setting, all goblinoids are associated with the fey (which have a much larger role than in most 3.5 settings). Goblins are bootlickers, but also the faeries' smiths. Because they need cold iron weapons for their internecine wars but can't stand the touch of it themselves (and Mab help them if they inhale cold iron filings) they need the goblins to make them.

Hobgoblins and bugbears are their brutes. In general the hobgoblins work for the Seelie Court and bugbears work for the Unseelie Court because hobgoblins value restrained violence and bugbears revel in outright destruction.

When they fey don't need their services (which may be for one week out of a century or millennia at a time) they pretty much go their own way. Goblins sell their services as smiths and tinkerers, hobgoblins work as mercenaries, and bugbears rape and pillage. Nobody ever really trusts them, though, because of their association with they fey.

Orcs are extinct. They came to the main continent thousands of years ago as refugees from a land on the opposite side of the equator that no one's managed to reach since, and formed the largest empire in history. A millennium ago, though, a plague that may have come from their homeland killed almost every pure blooded Orc, and the rest had their genes diluted so that only half-orcs remain.

There are two main populations of half-orcs. On the main continent they're desert nomads, refugees from the Orc empire, scattered when the elves invaded. They're not exceptionally wealthy because the desert isn't on a trade route, but they do have a monopoly on certain psychoactive plants and rare gems so are pretty exceptional traders.

On the other continent they're horse-back riding nomads that follow herds of aurochs and hold them sacred. Like the Minoans, their sacred festivals involve bull leaping and sacrifices of aurochs to their tribal spirits. Occasionally a Minotaur is born among them, which they treat as a good omen. Other cultures think it's because half-Orc women sleep with bulls. (They don't; it's magic.)

Since people have been talking about drow too, I'll mention them as well. Strictly speaking, there aren't any (though I allow my players to use them mechanically), and there's no underdark. However, all elves are dark skinned and a bit xenophobic and totally devoted to their god. They're descended from humans who were taken as slaves by the fey and warped by their time in faerie. The closest parallel to the drow are the northernmost group living in a jungle (Southern Hemisphere) who have nearly blue-black skin. While they officially adhere to the monotheism the rest of the elves do, they haven't bothered to stamp out the ancestor worship that involves mummifying their dead (as in real life mummification; not undead) and taking them out of their tombs for festivals that involve dancing with them, eating dinner with them, and, for widows and widowers, bringing them to bed. (Like the half-orcs, there's rumors that their worship involves necrophilia. It doesn't. Well, most of the time.)

[Blightedmarsh]

Something about the the hobgoblins seeks very Greek to me. Strength, honor, martial prowess and slavery all seem very Hellenistic.

You could give them philosophers and a belief in their own enlightenment.

Thucydides:

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."

"It is a general rule of human nature that people despise those who treat them well, and look up to those who make no concessions."

[Envyus]

Something about the the hobgoblins seeks very Greek to me. Strength, honor, martial prowess and slavery all seem very Hellenistic.

You could give them philosophers and a belief in their own enlightenment.

Thucydides:

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."

"It is a general rule of human nature that people despise those who treat them well, and look up to those who make no concessions."

I straight up called them the Spartans in my last post.

[Scootaloo]

I've never really given much thought to hobgoblins, really; they always struck me as just an excuse to have upgraded goblins for a third-level party to fight.

DM: "As you exit the ruins, you come face-to-face with a squad of large, armed goblins!"
Player: "Aw, man, we just got done fighting goblins!"
DM: "But these goblins are orange!"
Player: "oooooooooh!"

Regular goblins however, I adore. In large part i draw inspiration from the team of goblins in "Legend", particularly Blix; they are cunning, scheming creatures who have little moral center, and revere fire and war. They do not rule; they are the servants of other beings more powerful than they are, grunts and handservants and spies... but always scheming and planning to usurp that power. They're not stupid by any measure - reckless, uncivilized, and wild, but never stupid. Much like Redcloak on the oots series, their primary goal is the betterment of goblinkind - well, self-betterment first, then other goblins, of course. Adventurers can pretty reliably get goblins to turn on their masters, if properly bribed... woe to the adventurers that break such a bargain, though.

Additionally as with Jeff the green upthread, I associate goblins with the fey; They're exiles of they fae world, misshapen unseelie creatures forever barred from the Summerlands; as a result, the goblins hate few things more than fae creatures (and by extension, elves and gnomes)

Orcs are more trouble, particularly if you don't want to go ripping off Tolkien or Warcraft.It seem the only two options regularly presented are Orcish horde or Hordeish orc.

So, then... what if orcs don't actually HAVE a society, as such? Rather they live as individual bands in the wilderness, hunters and gatherers who see no wrong in "hunting and gathering" from outlying settlements. Their habitat and lifestyle make them powerful and unforgiving by necessity, rather than because of some sort of warlike semi-civilization. Brutal opportunists ever in search of a meal. On rare occasions a charismatic clan leader or shaman can unite several bands, but such alliances rarely outlive that leader (who himsef rarely lives long.) Basically orcs are the humanoid version of Honey Badger.

[Trasilor]

In the spirit of quick and dirty campaign building, I've actually had good success stealing from Star Trek. The hobgoblins make excellent Romulans, the orcs are Klingons and the goblins are ferengi. It dovetails better than you might think.

I am totally stealing this idea!

[squiggit]

I've never really given much thought to hobgoblins, really; they always struck me as just an excuse to have upgraded goblins for a third-level party to fight.
I used to feel this way about 'em too. They've grown on me a it though because they seem to be one of the only goblinkin that have their own flavor.

It just feels like for stock DnD WotC goes "Look! Goblins! They're like orcs but smaller and sneakier!" and "Look! Bugbears! They're like orcs but... Uh... hairier". While orcs themselves don't have much going for them to begin with.

Other settings have fun goblins though

[dextercorvia]

I've always thought of Hobgoblins like the Mongol raiders. It might be because of the pic in the 2e Monster Manual.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l268/filbypott/hobgoblin.jpg

[Envyus]

I used to feel this way about 'em too. They've grown on me a it though because they seem to be one of the only goblinkin that have their own flavor.

It just feels like for stock DnD WotC goes "Look! Goblins! They're like orcs but smaller and sneakier!" and "Look! Bugbears! They're like orcs but... Uh... hairier". While orcs themselves don't have much going for them to begin with.

Other settings have fun goblins though

Bugbears do have some stuff going for them. They are smarter then Orcs, They are guerrilla's preferring stealth and sneak attacks to take out foes rather then just rushing in. They are the most common beings that worship the archdevil Baalzebul as they believe in his doctrine of strength and guile.

[Segev]

Hobgoblins apparently hate elves and attack them preferentially when given a choice. This led me to the tangential thought that they're related to goblins, but exemplify certain goblin "virtues" more than others.

What if hobgoblins are to goblins what elves are to humans?

Choose goblinoid virtues and have the hobgoblins exemplify them in ways that make them seem like idealized goblins along one particular axis. Elves are humans with more grace, more longevity, more beauty. Hobgoblins, then, might be goblins with more strength (being larger), more diabolical cunning (their brilliant tactics could also be terrifying pranks), and where elves live in mysterious isolated cities that blend in with their surroundings such that humans are awed by the legends, hobgoblins maintain well-constructed caravans of mobile cities that can become temporary fortresses from which to launch strikes and raids while goblins whisper in awe at their audacity and cunning in being so sneaky and yet so grand.

I note, too, that Hobgoblins have a +4 racial bonus to silent movement. This could go well with a "things that go bump in the night" take on them. Make thievery/burglary something they value almost higher than combat prowess. But only from designated targets; no unlawful theft!

[droppedbutnot]

Sorry to be getting back to this after so long. This is just great. All these insights are wonderful. You've really given me a lot of food for thought.

I was thinking that they'd also have different preferences for weapons. I really want to work out some highly specialized tactics, especially for the hobgoblins.

:cool::cool::cool:

[VoxRationis]

Goblins favor rogues and sneak attacking; hobgoblins favor that combined with martial (whoops, nearly wrote "marital") prowess. If you assume that certain elite hobgoblin units are fighter/rogue multiclasses, I suggest a "fork" maneuver, where the formation forms long parallel lines, perpendicular to the enemy line. Archers or artillery strikes create weaknesses in the enemy line in particular places and the parallel lines rush in, flanking the enemy nicely for extra Sneak Attack damage. A parallel may be drawn to the tactic Nelson used when engaging the Franco-Spanish fleet at the Battle of Trafalgar; both are high-risk, high-reward strategies that suit a race known for aggression and high repopulation rates.

[RobotArtificer]

For weapon preferences: my understanding was that orcs usually use weapons like axes and falcions, two handed weapons that rely on brute strength. Goblins prefer daggers and other smaller weapons good for sneak attacks. Hobgoblins primarily use weapons more reliant on skill, like one handed swords, or weapons good for fighting in formation, like spears.