Level of OOTSs at end of the story

[With a box]

1. Can anyone reach lv.17 before the ending?
2. Durkon(revived) will reach 14 again?

[CRtwenty]

Based on the class and level geekery thread, most of the Order is probably right around level 17 right now, assuming they gained a level from their adventure in the pyramid and encounter with the Vector Legion. Durkon probably won't see a new level for awhile due to his increased LA from being a Vampire, but it'll happen eventually.

I personally suspect that the Order will be in the low epic range by the completion of the story (level 20-22)

[SavageWombat]

I remain unconvinced that Rich wants to give V access to 9th level spells at all. But that's just me.

I don't expect the party to break level 20.

[Nephrahim]

I remain unconvinced that Rich wants to give V access to 9th level spells at all. But that's just me.

I don't expect the party to break level 20.

I mean, technically V had 9th level spells for a few comics, even if it didn't last. The world didn't end. He didn't use wish to alter reality or anything.

I also suspect somewhere in the 19-21 range.

[kivzirrum]

I expect they'd probably max out around 20, maybe 21. I base that mostly off the way epic level characters can get CRAZY powerful really fast, in some pretty narrative-breaking ways. The Giant has already talked about working around the powers of Resurrection and wizards--with how much power epic level characters can command, especially Vaarsuvius, I imagine such challenges would increase.

Then again, I could be wrong.

[zimmerwald1915]

Based on the class and level geekery thread, most of the Order is probably right around level 17 right now, assuming they gained a level from their adventure in the pyramid and encounter with the Vector Legion.
You're misinterpreting that thread. According to it, some of the Order just hit level 16. Every one of them is quite a ways off from 17.

[Katuko]

I don't think the Order will reach Epic status as part of the main plot. Maybe as part of their post-Order life at the very, very, end of the comic, but certainly not before the final battle.

The levels and powers they do gain will be kept within their regular non-game breaker range. We will not see Vaarsuvius use Wish, but we may very well see some other 9th-level spell, like Crushing Hand or Meteor Swarm. V knows that Xykon can negate both, though, so it's more likely that we'd see Time Stop or Shapechange on an eventual 9th-level slot. Very powerful spells, but far from the direct reality-warping potential of Wish.

Whatever spells or abilities they bring, I don't think the final stretch will be solved through direct application of such abilities anyways. I can see the world being saved by just a well-timed arrow which knocks over a ritual item or something.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm betting that the level that the Order is at the end of the story will be almost irrelevant to the story itself, and that the spells that Vaarsuvius and Durkon get won't effect the story as much as other, non-power based factors. If I had to guess, I would say they won't go much beyond low-epic.

[Mith]

I feel that if Rich wanted to deny access to certain spells like Wish, Rich could make it that Wish has a huge penalty as well as limitations that makes most wizards unwilling to use it. When the gods made a world as a prison to a god killer, they maybe wanted to make sure that the world could not be altered too much by mortals

[137beth]

I'm betting that the level that the Order is at the end of the story will be almost irrelevant to the story itself, and that the spells that Vaarsuvius and Durkon get won't effect the story as much as other, non-power based factors.

It would appear you win the bet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?274566-Is-the-OotS-even-progressing&p=14838233&viewfull=1#post14838233):smallbiggrin:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It would appear you win the bet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?274566-Is-the-OotS-even-progressing&p=14838233&viewfull=1#post14838233):smallbiggrin:

I'd better, since that was the quote I was looking at when I wrote my statement. :smalltongue:

[zimmerwald1915]

I'd better, since that was the quote I was looking at when I wrote my statement. :smalltongue:
The dichotomy is a false one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14842223&postcount=74)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The dichotomy is a false one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14842223&postcount=74)

Well, that teaches me to read the whole thread and not just a single post.

[Kish]

Like CRtwenty, I'm guessing they'll be low-epic.

Rich already said that they're at the point where the distinction between the high-level Order of the Stick and the low-epic Order of the Scribble isn't major, and there are two books left.

[Reddish Mage]

I remain unconvinced that Rich wants to give V access to 9th level spells at all. But that's just me.

I don't expect the party to break level 20.

The main problem with giving V access to 9th level spells isn't all the ways V would wreck the storyline, so much as all the ways forumites can second guess the OOTS every action through 9th level spells V could have used. If the Giant has developed a thick hide for complaints from the nerd-core he can easily go there.

After all, the IFCC, Xykon, the Order of the Scribble and perhaps other factions have had access to 9th level or even Epic magic for awhile now. No one cast the "I win" spell yet.

[SavageWombat]

Rich already said that they're at the point where the distinction between the high-level Order of the Stick and the low-epic Order of the Scribble isn't major, and there are two books left.

People keep reading this quote to mean "there's no reason to keep them from being epic" - when it could just as easily mean "there's no reason to ever specifically declare them epic." Would there be a story reason why Rich would need to say "this situation requires an epic-level spell"?

[zimmerwald1915]

People keep reading this quote to mean "there's no reason to keep them from being epic" - when it could just as easily mean "there's no reason to ever specifically declare them epic." Would there be a story reason why Rich would need to say "this situation requires an epic-level spell"?
I can think of a few: rebuilding a Gate, knitting the fabric of the universe back together without one, knitting the fabrics of World 2.0 and Riftworld together...

I doubt the story will end with big gaping holes in reality, and the only mortal magic to ever manage to make a hole into a not-hole has been Epic.

[David Argall]

The party has been gaining about 1 level per hundred strips, a figure that is clearly only vaguely correct, but since we have about 500 pages to go, ending up in the low epic range seems reasonable.

[Emanick]

I don't see epic levels happening in anything but an epilogue, if only because that would do a bit to cut down on the Order's "underdog" status going into the final fight against Xykon. Personally, I have my bets placed on the OOTS ending up at level 18ish. But of course, I wouldn't be remotely surprised to be wrong. :smalltongue:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

What exactly would be the big transition between 20 and 21?

[zimmerwald1915]

What exactly would be the big transition between 20 and 21?
The ability to take Epic feats. That's it really.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The ability to take Epic feats. That's it really.

The way people kept talking about it, I expected something a little more than that. :smalltongue:

[CRtwenty]

The way people kept talking about it, I expected something a little more than that. :smalltongue:

Epic Feats are pretty damn powerful, plus casters can access Epic Magic which is a whole new level of broken.

[Kish]

The way people kept talking about it, I expected something a little more than that. :smalltongue:
With epic feats, Vaarsuvius (and/or Durkon) would be able to develop spells like Cloister and the Guardian Virus. Haley could develop her lying ability to the point where she could effectively duplicate what happened when she was using the Potion of Glibness nonmagically. And so on.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Epic Feats are pretty damn powerful, plus casters can access Epic Magic which is a whole new level of broken.


With epic feats, Vaarsuvius (and/or Durkon) would be able to develop spells like Cloister and the Guardian Virus. Haley could develop her lying ability to the point where she could effectively duplicate what happened when she was using the Potion of Glibness nonmagically. And so on.

Clearly, I need to read up on the epic rules.

[Terrador]

I can think of a few: rebuilding a Gate, knitting the fabric of the universe back together without one, knitting the fabrics of World 2.0 and Riftworld together...

I doubt the story will end with big gaping holes in reality, and the only mortal magic to ever manage to make a hole into a not-hole has been Epic.

Where's the evidence for this? Redcloak was nowhere near Epic when he first met Xykon, and the big man himself may or may not have become Epic before lichdom; he was, however, at least Level 20 when fighting Lirian, as he had Energy Drain, Soul Bind, and implied he had Meteor Swarm as well. There's no evidence of Cloister, Epic Mage Armor, Superb Dispelling, or any other Epic powers there, or even at any point up until his Maximized Energy Drain against Dorukan.

E: Before someone points out that he would be EL 24+, the only relevance of Epic here would be the presence of Epic magic.

Double edit: WAIT, I'm an idiot. Redcloak mentions at some point that Epic magic is the only kind that can rebuild the Gates, and the rituals are their own things entirely. Please disregard; I'm some sort of idiot, clearly.

TRIPLE edit: as far as the Order's level at the end of the story... I can't see them being Epic before the climactic battle; it doesn't seem appropriate. As for rebuilding the Gates... Durkon is very unlikely to ever be Epic in that scale of time [unless he eats the bulk of the XP for taking down Tarquin's empires when and if he gets raised?], but Vaarsuvius could probably pull it off. That said, I'd call both Vaarsuvius/Durkon doing it and Aarindarius (the strongest wizard we know of, who is, frankly, almost certainly Epic) and someone like the High Priest of Thor teaming up unrealistic at this point.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Where's the evidence for this? Redcloak was nowhere near Epic when he first met Xykon, and the big man himself may or may not have become Epic before lichdom; he was, however, at least Level 20 when fighting Lirian, as he had Energy Drain, Soul Bind, and implied he had Meteor Swarm as well. There's no evidence of Cloister, Epic Mage Armor, Superb Dispelling, or any other Epic powers there, or even at any point up until his Maximized Energy Drain against Dorukan.

E: Before someone points out that he would be EL 24+, the only relevance of Epic here would be the presence of Epic magic.

I think Zimmerwald was talking about making the Gates, which were actions completed by the Epic-leveled Dorukan and Lirian.

Edit: Never mind.

[Terrador]

I think Zimmerwald was talking about making the Gates, which were actions completed by the Epic-leveled Dorukan and Lirian.

Edit: Never mind.

Swordsaged! I never get to do that. But yeah, you're right. My mistake.

People have talked a lot about ninth-level spells in this thread--which one(s) do you think V is likely to take? I suspect that the black dragon's Antimagic Field really humbled V, so he could probably take Mage's Disjunction and not break the plot too hard. In addition, Crushing Hand, Meteor Swarm, Time Stop, and Shapechange all seem like spells up V's alley that wouldn't require V to be gone for them to not just break the important encounters.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Swordsaged! I never get to do that. But yeah, you're right. My mistake.

People have talked a lot about ninth-level spells in this thread--which one(s) do you think V is likely to take? I suspect that the black dragon's Antimagic Field really humbled V, so he could probably take Mage's Disjunction and not break the plot too hard. In addition, Crushing Hand, Meteor Swarm, Time Stop, and Shapechange all seem like spells up V's alley that wouldn't require V to be gone for them to not just break the important encounters.
Those are all spells that I would expect Vaarsuvius to use, definitely. I also notice that they are all spells that they used when they had the Soul Splice, so it seems like they are spells they know how to use.