Druid with monk's belt

[.Zero]

Hello everyone!
I'm arguing with my DM. I'm a druid and i want to take the monk's belt (DMG) that SHOULD grant me a bonus to AC equal to my wisdom modifier, because with it I'm considered ad a 5th level monk (as stated in the Druid Handbook, equipment section).
He says that the monk's belt gives me only a +1 bonus as stated in the table 3.12 in the PHB.

Who's right?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks)"

This gives you the entire "AC Bonus" class feature of a Monk 5, which is as follows:

AC Bonus (Ex)

When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.
A Monk's Belt clearly grants a non-Monk their Wisdom bonus+1 to AC.

[TrueJordan]

Even though I'm useless, seconded.

[prufock]

Your DM is wrong, probably because he's only reading the monk table, not the text.

[Cloud]

As much as I want your DM to be right, and read it that way myself, and don't see or understand the completely ridiculous argument for the other side (because if there are two readings of an ability, and one is insane, and one is sane, one should pick the sane reading), the D&D FAQ would have you be right (...Not customer service, the FAQ, I understand that customer service was terrible).

Does a monk’s belt (DMG 248) grant a non-monk wearer his Wisdom bonus to AC?
Yes. Note, however, that the wearer gains the AC bonus only when unarmored and unencumbered, since the belt clearly states that “this AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.”

The monk’s belt says it grants the “AC bonus” of a 5th level monk. What does that mean?
When the monk’s belt refers to the “AC bonus” of a 5th level monk, it is referring to the monk ability called AC bonus. It grants +1 bonus to AC and adds your Wisdom modifier to your Armor Class if you are not wearing armor and are not encumbered.

[Deadline]

As much as I want your DM to be right, and read it that way myself, and don't see or understand the completely ridiculous argument for the other side (because if there are two readings of an ability, and one is insane, and one is sane, one should pick the sane reading), the D&D FAQ would have you be right (...Not customer service, the FAQ, I understand that customer service was terrible).

Wait, you think paying 13,000gp for +1 to AC is sane?

As it is, the Monk's Belt is only useful for Monks and unarmored characters (generally spellcasters). Given that you can't benefit from it while wearing armor, it's of limited usefulness as-is (with the apparent "insane" reading). Changing it to +1 AC for 13,000gp would put it firmly in "why would anyone buy that, it's ridiculously overpriced" territory.

It also doesn't follow the pricing guidelines, and would be completely inferior to a Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (which gives a slotless +1 insight bonus to AC for 5,000gp).

[Rijan_Sai]

As much as I want your DM to be right, and read it that way myself, and don't see or understand the completely ridiculous argument for the other side (because if there are two readings of an ability, and one is insane, and one is sane, one should pick the sane reading), the D&D FAQ would have you be right (...Not customer service, the FAQ, I understand that customer service was terrible).

Does a monk’s belt (DMG 248) grant a non-monk wearer his Wisdom bonus to AC?
Yes. Note, however, that the wearer gains the AC bonus only when unarmored and unencumbered, since the belt clearly states that “this AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.”

The monk’s belt says it grants the “AC bonus” of a 5th level monk. What does that mean?
When the monk’s belt refers to the “AC bonus” of a 5th level monk, it is referring to the monk ability called AC bonus. It grants +1 bonus to AC and adds your Wisdom modifier to your Armor Class if you are not wearing armor and are not encumbered.

In all honesty, how is WIS+1 AC and upping unarmed damage to 1d8 (for 13,000gp) "insane?" I'm not knocking you opinion, but it would seem more insane (to me) to spend that much and only get the 1d8 UA damage and +1 AC (especially since you don't get FoB or the Unarmed Strike class features, only the increased damage; and you can get the same AC bonus from Bracers of Armor (+1 for 1000g, does not apply to touch attacks,) or the Gloves of Dexterity (+2 for 4000, = +1 AC that does not go away when you wear armor, as well as other bonuses.))

edit:
And Sworsaged!
Also missed the Ioun Stone.

[Cloud]

I think letting the tier 1 caster pay 13,000 for a +13 bonus (+12 wisdom mod, 18 wisdom, +5 tome, +5 level, +6 item), or just any item that completely invalidates an entire class, is insane. Can I buy 13,000 to get Divine Grace as a 5th level Paladin? Wait, I only need second level, can I pay even less? What about using the variant monk that uses intelligence, can I use that and a monk's belt on my wizard please? >.>

Paying 13,000 for +1 AC isn't a remotely good option, it's an awful one (but see the price of going from +4 deflection/natural armour to +5, if you're desperate for AC), but at least it doesn't invalidate a class and help a class that needs it least. Not that that matters when the case is the Monk's Belt works as the original poster describes, not really worth arguing why something should or shouldn't work when we have a clear answer that it does work.

[eggynack]

I think letting the tier 1 caster pay 13,000 for a +13 bonus (+12 wisdom mod, 18 wisdom, +5 tome, +5 level, +6 item), or just any item that completely invalidates an entire class, is insane. Can I buy 13,000 to get Divine Grace as a 5th level Paladin? Wait, I only need second level, can I pay even less? What about using the variant monk that uses intelligence, can I use that and a monk's belt on my wizard please? >.>

Paying 13,000 for +1 AC isn't a remotely good option, but at least it doesn't invalidate a class and help a class that needs it least. Not that that matters when the case is the Monk's Belt works as the original poster describes, not really worth arguing why something should or shouldn't work when we have a clear answer that it does work.
To the point about invalidating the monk, I don't think that's really a thing. There's not much in the game that doesn't invalidate the monk. If we're calling anything that invalidates a monk ridiculous, then the game kinda implodes in a wave of ridiculousness and resultant banning. The issue here is how crappy the monk is, rather than how good the monk's belt is. To the point about it giving a big bonus, well, yeah. You need to be a character that boosts wisdom a lot, or you otherwise just need to boost wisdom a lot, and the item is pretty expensive, and it has a highly relevant drawback. It's an item that's great on druids, but it's not all that great on all that many not-druid classes, and even druids are unlikely to buy the thing until reasonably far into the game, due to the massive number of other options.

[prufock]

I think letting the tier 1 caster pay 13,000 for a +13 bonus (+12 wisdom mod, 18 wisdom, +5 tome, +5 level, +6 item), or just any item that completely invalidates an entire class, is insane.
+2 Fullplate and +1 heavy shield is about 6800, and grants +13 AC, and you don't have to pay for tomes and ability enhancers to get it that high. A cleric still gets a generally better deal from armor.

[Cloud]

+2 Fullplate and +1 heavy shield is about 6800, and grants +13 AC, and you don't have to pay for tomes and ability enhancers to get it that high. A cleric still gets a generally better deal from armor.

...Because Druids use full plate and shields, got it. (Wait, does anyone use shields if they're not animated?) Also a caster is going to buy a tome and ability enhancers anyway. And the bonus from a Monks belt stacks with armour and shield bonuses (just you know, from a source that doesn't invalidate it), and adds to your touch AC. It's not so much overpowered as just silly (and setting an extremely awful precedent for any DM that would make custom items, not that custom items should be made using any guidelines WotC put out, but I digress), and not letting it work only effects the druid, which you know, they're druids. They'll turn into a bear and ride a bear while summoning bears and not care.

...Again though, it works as the original poster said anyway.

[eggynack]

It's not so much overpowered as just silly.
I just don't understand this distinction. I mean, sure, druids don't need the item based help, but do you have any idea how many items are awesome on druids, or better yet, how many items are both awesome on druids, and pretty much only awesome on druids? It's a pretty decent quantity. Meanwhile, you're putting forth that this item somehow asserts the existence of similar items for other stats, and it really doesn't. I mean, sure, if a DM wants an int based AC item in his game, then that's his prerogative, but it's somewhat crazy to assess how silly an item is based on arbitrary hypothetical items.

[prufock]

...Because Druids use full plate and shields, got it.

I specifically said cleric, but while we're on it, a druid can grab dragonhide fullplate, and it's still cheaper than the monk's belt. No proficiency, but a feat fixes that, or they can take breastplate instead for a little more gold than the monk's belt. Druids are proficient with shields, so no problem there. Magic Vestment x2, you're done.

At 20th level, +13 AC is kind of trivial; frontliners are hitting at somewhere like +40 and casters don't care about your AC. It screws over rogues and similar 3/4 combat classes more than anyone else.

[eggynack]

I specifically said cleric, but while we're on it, a druid can grab dragonhide fullplate, and it's still cheaper than the monk's belt. No proficiency, but a feat fixes that, or they can take breastplate instead for a little more gold than the monk's belt. Druids are proficient with shields, so no problem there. Magic Vestment x2, you're done.
I generally prefer the belt. You need to stick wild onto the armor in order to get it to work in wild shape, which winds up costing about the same as a monk's belt+clasp, and if you actually are doing the feat plan, that just seems bad. Also, a monk's belt stacks really well with what a druid is capable of. You toss on luminous armor, and that's something like double-armor, and you can have an infinite dexterity bonus to AC, and druids can get pretty huge dexterity bonuses to AC. It's a good deal. You can often do better than buying either one, however, by buying something that augments your actual abilities. Getting a rod of lesser extend spell, or a ring of the beast is going to likely grant more power than either armor setup, and at a lower price at that.

[Phelix-Mu]

Not really relevant, but dragoncrafted dragonhide full plate counts as medium armour, if I'm not mistaken. At high levels, a non-Exalted druid not exploiting monk's belt could make a pretty good setup from +5 wild full plate and +5 wild heavy shield. I used this on a true neutral druid that I had (back before I knew about the monk's belt working for everyone), and I really liked the visuals. Druid robed in green leather druid's vestments embossed with leaf patterns, over a suit of blue dragonhide full plate. Hehe, I really like toying around with appearance descriptions, and you can always toss glammered on there if you don't want to go around looking like a knight with all that bulky armour.

[Rubik]

You need to stick wild onto the armor in order to get it to work in wild shape, which winds up costing about the same as a monk's belt+clasp, and if you actually are doing the feat plan, that just seems bad.Or go the smart direction and use a wilding clasp with the armor. There's absolutely nothing preventing the combo from working, so I'm not sure why anyone would ever use the Wild property on their armor, unless wilding clasps literally aren't available in that campaign, or the druid finds the armor in a dragon's hoard or something.

[evangaline]

+2 Fullplate and +1 heavy shield is about 6800, and grants +13 AC, and you don't have to pay for tomes and ability enhancers to get it that high. A cleric still gets a generally better deal from armor.

Imagine a 12th level cleric who has your fullplate, shield (and a cloak, ring and bracers of protection if we're going all out on ac) and a pheriapt of wisdom +4 and +3 from ability score increase. His wisdom will be 18+7=25 wich gives a +7 bonus on wisdom

Buying the monks belt willl then give you 8 ac for 13k gold without forcing you to increase the +X from your full plate, shield cloak, bracers or rings. This is, in my opinion, a very updgrade efficient way to increase your ac. Upgrading an item from +1 to +2 to get more ac from one item is very cost ineficient and, if possible, should be prevented.

Stat upgrading costs:
(+1 = 1000 gold)
(+2 = 4000 gold)
(+3 = 9000 gold)
(+4 = 16000 gold)
ect.

I do agree with you though. Pre- +2 fullplate and +1 heavy, animated shield this is irrelevant for there are a lot cheaper ways to get 8 ac. The monk belt will only be interesting after you got said 'ac'.

[Rubik]

Imagine a 12th level cleric who has your fullplate, shield (and a cloak, ring and bracers of protection if we're going all out on ac) and a pheriapt of wisdom +4 and +3 from ability score increase. His wisdom will be 18+7=25 wich gives a +7 bonus on wisdom

Buying the monks belt willl then give you 8 ac for 13k gold without forcing you to increase the +X from your full plate, shield cloak, bracers or rings. This is, in my opinion, a very updgrade efficient way to increase your ac. Upgrading an item from +1 to +2 to get more ac from one item is very cost ineficient and, if possible, should be prevented.

Stat upgrading costs:
(+1 = 1000 gold)
(+2 = 4000 gold)
(+3 = 9000 gold)
(+4 = 16000 gold)
ect.

I do agree with you though. Pre- +2 fullplate and +1 heavy, animated shield this is irrelevant for there are a lot cheaper ways to get 8 ac. The monk belt will only be interesting after you got said 'ac'.Since it's a cleric, try masterwork full plate with Magic Vestment cast on both it and the shield. Considerably cheaper, and it still remains competitive.

If you want, buy a couple of pearls of power, for a cheap way to preserve the spell slots, so you can cast the spell multiple times without using any major resources for the day.

[Bronk]

especially since you don't get FoB or the Unarmed Strike class features, only the increased damage

While you don't get those features, getting the unarmed damaged of a monk gives you lethal (and non lethal) damage as well as being able to add your full strength bonus to the damage.

A druid wearing this while wild shaped can make a full unarmed attack with damage adjusted for the size and strength of their assumed form, followed by attacks with their natural weapons as secondary attacks (in addition to the AC bonuses).

[RedMage125]

OP: Everyone else here is correct. The Monk's Belt adds your WIS to AC as well as the misc. +1.

And Cloud...as far as "paying 13,000 gp to invalidate a class", it's not as overpowered as you suggest.

First off, until a druid can afford a monk's belt, he/she is going to be wearing armor (likely magical, as 13,000 gp as one person's share doesn't happen at level 6 and below). So once a druid acquires a monk's belt, he/she is going to want to sell their armor and buy some bracers of armor (and another wilding clasp, assuming they saved the one from their old armor). But in the long run it's better for them.

A cleric doesn't usually go the Monk's Belt route unless he/she is a cloistered cleric and not proficient with heavy armor and shields. It's more cost effective for a high-level (non-cloistered) cleric to be in magical full plate with a magical shield, as magical armor stacks up at half the price of a magical weapon.

Druids (and cloistered clerics), as classes with Wisdom primary who are stuck in light or otherwise crappy armors (sane feats and dragonscale armor), benefit greatly from the Monk's Belt, as it allows them to stack their AC with their primary stat. How is that any different from the rogue with Weapon Finesse getting his DEX bonus both to his AC and his primary attack/skill stat? Due to the generally crappy armor bonus of [unenchanted] light armor, as well as all PHB-only nonmetal armor, a Monk's Belt, coombined with even a halfway decent set of Bracers of Armor for their level will result in a higher AC (and touch AC) for the druid or cloistered cleric. A regular cleric with Mithral Full Plate +5 (assume a +3 Dex bonus), who also has a +5 Heavy shield will be getting +23 to their AC vis the Monk's Belt option (+10 Wis Mod, +8 bracers, +1 misc for a total of +19). Of course, a cleric with a Dex bonus of +1 would not need mithral armor, but could go adamantine, and have a +21 bonus from their gear, but also get DR 3/-.

And let's not forget that the druid has the additional cost of buying wilding clasps like they're going out of style.

So no, it's not a low-cost buyoff for some kind of class-invalidating OP combo, it's simple math and economics.

Besides, druids look cooler (and more druid-y) wearing no amor with a simple piece of rope for a belt than wearing dragonscale plate with a dragonscale shield. ;)

Edit: fixed bit of math, forgot the nonmagical +2 from the shield

[sleepyphoenixx]

Getting the same AC from Monks Belt + Bracers of Armor as Full Plate + Shield is a lot more expensive, especially if you need to buy Wilding Clasps for the first option and use Greater Magic Vestment for the second.

With 17000gp you get a Monk's Belt with Wilding Clasp or +3 full plate and a +2 heavy shield with plenty left over.
To equal that you'd need 38 wisdom which will probably happen by level 20, and that only with a +5 tome, all level up ability points, a +6 item and a racial bonus.
Owl's Insight helps too, of course, but by that time the character in heavy armor is going to cast Greater Magic Vestment so it evens out.

But 25 AC is nothing at high levels so you'll need more (if you go for AC at all). In theory you have a leg up because your AC stacks with Bracers of Armor where the clerics doesn't. You don't.
A cleric with any sense will have +1 armor & shield and use the rest of his bonus on enhancements, relying on Magic Vestment for AC.
You have no place to put armor enhancements except your Bracers of Armor. By high levels you're probably going to want at least Soulfire, which is already a +4 bonus.

Even with only that getting more AC on those bracers is a waste of money because of the way the costs scale.
Gods help you if you want some more armor enhancements that don't have a fixed price (and there's quite a few that are really really nice :smallfrown:).

The "official" solution is even less cost effective. Using Wild armor and shield means you're 30000gp behind from the start, without counting the costs for non-metal material and the greater prices for enhancements.

You're better off getting your AC from NA, deflection, dodge, and dex. AC bonus on items gets expensive fast, which is why people either get it from spells (Shield of Law, Halo of Sand, Barkskin, Haste, etc.) or don't bother with it and get miss chance instead.

So:
It's Wisdom mod +1. Aside from being in the description
This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. it's the only interpretation that justifies it's existence.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You're DM is correct because he's the one running the game and its his right to rule contrary to the written rules.

[Rubik]

You're (?) DM is correct because he's the one running the game and its (!) his right to rule contrary to the written rules.In that case, if you have one, sell it. It's not worth bothering with, even on a monk. (In which case it's utterly redundant; +1 to AC for 13k? Bleh.) There are items which cost 1/10 as much which are far more useful, so buy 5 of them and have done.

[Asteron]

You're DM is correct because he's the one running the game and its his right to rule contrary to the written rules.

1) I always have a serious issue with the DM is always right issue. DM's can be wrong. It's true! This is a cooperative game and being a dictator will always leave a bad taste in my mouth. I strive to know the rules perfectly for my players. However, that isn't always possible and I don't begrudge my characters correcting me so long as they are respectful. Being able to issue houserules doesn't make them infallible from a rules knowledge perspective.

2) This is more of a matter of the DM actually reading the rule wrong than issuing a houserule on the matter.

3) If I am deviating from the written rules for any reason, my players will know without a doubt. I'll tell them that I am doing so and that the matter is closed for the moment.

[Rijan_Sai]

While you don't get those features, getting the unarmed damaged of a monk gives you lethal (and non lethal) damage as well as being able to add your full strength bonus to the damage.

A druid wearing this while wild shaped can make a full unarmed attack with damage adjusted for the size and strength of their assumed form, followed by attacks with their natural weapons as secondary attacks (in addition to the AC bonuses).
I'm curious* how you come to that conclusion?
The Monk's Belt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks) states:

If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk.
The part about lethal damage comes under Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#unarmedStrike):

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

The Monk Class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) table has a column for the Unarmed Damage. This is talked about in the fourth paragraph of Unarmed Strike. It is separate from the lethal damage, the "Natural and Manufactured Weapons," and the Improved Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedUnarmedStrike) bonus feat. If the MB gave all of that, (i.e. the Unarmed Strike class feature,) then I would have no qualms with what you said, and the belt would likely be rather underpriced. As it is, you only get 1/4 of the CF:

A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.



*(...I'm using that term alot today...)

[Lilapop]

Or go the smart direction and use a wilding clasp with the armor. There's absolutely nothing preventing the combo from working, so I'm not sure why anyone would ever use the Wild property on their armor, unless wilding clasps literally aren't available in that campaign, or the druid finds the armor in a dragon's hoard or something.

I've always been under the impression that wilding clasps don't work on armor, so your comment made me look them up.

Wilding Clasp: Appearing as a 3-inch-long gold chain, this item works only when attached to an amulet, vest, or similar item. The clasp prevents both itself and the attached item from melding into the wearer’s new form when transforming magic (such as polymorph self or wild shape) is used. The item is still worn in the same manner it previously was and remains available for use in the new form. [followed by an example using an amulet]
The bolded part seems to be what sparked my initial views. Both specific slots listed are something worn, but not armor. Its a bit ambigious, though.


A wilding clasp can be attached to any item worn on the body. When so worn, a clasp prevents the worn item from melding into your new form when you use wild shape (as long as the item could reasonably be worn by the new form). Thus, the item remains fully functional and can be used normally in your new form.Does the bolded part mean armor would morph into barding, or does it require it do be barding in the first place, because animal forms use barding instead of normal armor? Granted, that would defeat the purpose of the clasp.

[.Zero]

First of all, thank you everybody.

Now, I'm going to do a VERY PERSONAL INTERPRETATION:
Monk AC bonus work if I'm unarmed and undercumbered.
Wild enhancement let me retain my armor AC bonus when I'm in wild shape.
I take a piece of wood and shape it with magic in the form of a medium armor, then i use another spell (i don't remember the name of those spells... I'm not at home now and I'm quite busy, forgive me... the both of them are in the PHB though) to transform wood in iron. I'm wearing a true armor that lasts 1day/level.
I enhance it with the Wild enhancement. So...

When I'm in human form, monk's belt + wilding clasp's AC bonus won't work. But what if I'm in wild shape?
Wild enhancement specifically says that i can retain my armor AC bonus when wild shaping, but it does not prevent my equipment to meld with my new form, thus, for those who are observing me, i resemble a naked Dire Bear wearing nothin but his furry and a rope around his waist...

I'm undercumberd while in wild shape!!! Or not? Is this too much interpretation? I mean, I'm not barded!

And, generally speaking, can you advise me for some good/sweet/very good druid equipment and weapon/armor enhancements? Everything is allowed, and when i say "everything", i mean everything except Dragon Magazine and third party source books. WotC's online material is ok.
Thank you!


You're DM is correct because he's the on right to rule contrary to the written rules.

This must be the festival of silliness.

[Asteron]

When I'm in human form, monk's belt + wilding clasp's AC bonus won't work.

Why wouldn't it work? I didn't think that the wildling clasp prevented things from working in your normal form...

[Rijan_Sai]

Why wouldn't it work? I didn't think that the wildling clasp prevented things from working in your normal form...

Because s/he's wearing Wood Shaped, Iron Wood armor, and the Monk's Belt doesn't function with armor.

[Rubik]

Why wouldn't it work? I didn't think that the wildling clasp prevented things from working in your normal form...He's wearing armor in his human form that melds with his bear form, so the monk's belt won't work (due to the armor he's also wearing).


I've always been under the impression that wilding clasps don't work on armor, so your comment made me look them up.

The bolded part seems to be what sparked my initial views. Both specific slots listed are something worn, but not armor. Its a bit ambigious, though.

Does the bolded part mean armor would morph into barding, or does it require it do be barding in the first place, because animal forms use barding instead of normal armor? Granted, that would defeat the purpose of the clasp.Armor is similar to a vest, is it not? It's worn in a similar fashion. It's an open-ended wording, which basically allows any slotted item (as unslotted items, such as, say decanters of endless water, are nothing like a vest or what have you).

And the armor should work vis a vis barding. Barding is just animal armor, after all, and is worn the same way. It just needs to be shaped differently due to how most animal bodies are arranged.

[Asteron]

*HEADDESK*

Derp...

[Spore]

Remember that the PF version of the monk's belt works differently.

[eggynack]

I'm undercumberd while in wild shape!!! Or not? Is this too much interpretation? I mean, I'm not barded!
As long as you're within your light load limits, and you aren't wearing armor, you're fine.


And, generally speaking, can you advise me for some good/sweet/very good druid equipment and weapon/armor enhancements? Everything is allowed, and when i say "everything", i mean everything except Dragon Magazine and third party source books. WotC's online material is ok.
Thank you!
What level are we talking about here? It impacts things somewhat. In any case, a lesser metamagic rod of extend spell, or maybe two, is always a good idea. Druids get just a crazy amount of spells that are lower than 4th level that benefit from a doubled duration, ranging from hours/level buffs, like heart of water/air, to 24 hour buffs, like primal instinct/hunter, to spells like creeping cold, which are creeping cold, and thus awesome with extension. Very cheap, very useful. Next, you should consider a ring of the beast (CC, 141), which boosts your summoning tremendously, and maybe a mantle of the beast (CC, 140), which lets you wild shape as a swift action. Neither item requires wilding clasps to work in a wild shape.

Another thing of note is the belt of battle (MIC, 73), because extra actions are always great (you can combine it with the monk's belt, if you like), a pearl of speech (MIC, 118), which lets you talk in a wild shape, and perhaps a periapt of wisdom, for those are always good. There are other items of note, but many depend to some extent on level.

[Rubik]

Remember that the PF version of the monk's belt works differently.And is basically not worth buying for anyone.

[.Zero]

I didn't understand what you're trying to tell me. Is my dirty trick doable? I mean: am i considered undercumbered, when wild shaping and wearing a Wild-enhanced armor, for the purpose of the Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp AC bonus?

@eggynack
You're right. We're talking about a 12th level Druid-only pc
Is the Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp a good combo for boosting AC or actually is better going with a Wild armor? The problem is that i can have a decent AC with the belt and wild shape natural armor, but i don't want to play a turtle, and maybe i can have major benefits enhancing something.
Also, what are good special materials for druid's equipment?

[eggynack]

@eggynack
You're right. We're talking about a 12th level Druid-only pc
Is the Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp a good combo for boosting AC or actually is better going with a Wild armor? The problem is that i can have a decent AC with the belt and wild shape natural armor, but i don't want to play a turtle,

I think that's about the level range where you should be running the belt. It's a bit ambiguous whether you still face max dex bonus from wild armor, and you definitely do from wilding clasp+standard armor, and high dexterity bat forms are sweet. Anyway, level 12 you're actually starting to hit standard metamagic rod of extend territory, which is a thing that druids can also make use of, and the mantle of the wild is quite purchasable. If you really want to push things, and you get over the thing about not playing a turtle, you can push 40,000 GP into a wild shape amulet (MoF, 167), which boosts effective wild shape level by 4, granting access to dire tortoise form (Sand, 151), causing you to always act in the surprise round.

[Lord Vukodlak]

2) This is more of a matter of the DM actually reading the rule wrong than issuing a houserule on the matter.
Not everyone agrees with the interpretation "you get wisdom to AC" Some believe the item was only referring to the column and not the class feature.


In that case, if you have one, sell it. It's not worth bothering with, even on a monk. (In which case it's utterly redundant; +1 to AC for 13k? Bleh.) There are items which cost 1/10 as much which are far more useful, so buy 5 of them and have done.
Your forgetting it functions differently for monks
+1 AC, +1 Stunning Fist a day and his unarmed damage increases a step or two.

[Jack_Simth]

This must be the festival of silliness.It's actually RAW. Check the Dungeon Master's Guide, page 14. Also page 18: "Do you cheat? The answer: The DM really can’t cheat. You’re the umpire, and what you say goes."

Essentially, the DM is right (at least at that table) even when the DM is provably in direct contradiction to the written rules of the game.

Edit: Add into that the little issue that yes, some people do indeed believe that the AC bonus of a 5th level Monk really should be referring to the table rather than the AC bonus class feature, and your DM is most assuredly correct at your table, irrespective of whatever anyone else thinks, FAQ or no.

[eggynack]

Not everyone agrees with the interpretation "you get wisdom to AC" Some believe the item was only referring to the column and not the class feature.

You get the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th level monk. A 5th level monk gets wisdom to AC, given certain conditions. It seems pretty straightforward to me. Text trumps table, and the text lists this bonus, so such is the nature of things.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You get the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th level monk. A 5th level monk gets wisdom to AC, given certain conditions. It seems pretty straightforward to me. Text trumps table, and the text lists this bonus, so such is the nature of things.
Trumps what table? The text says you get the "monk ac bonus" but does that refer to the class feature, or the column on the monk class.

[eggynack]

Trumps what table? The text says you get the "monk ac bonus" but does that refer to the class feature, or the column on the monk class.
The column on the monk class is the class feature, derived from the text given in the list of class features. The two are even titled identically. As they are both rules for the same thing, the text trumps the table in terms of what the monk's AC bonus is. As is, the monk's belt doesn't even reference a particular ability. It just says you gain the AC of a 5th level monk. A 5th level monk gets AC based on wisdom, so you do too, unless you're somehow claiming that a 5th level monk does not gain AC equal to their wisdom modifier. It's a thing somewhat lacking in alternate interpretations.

[Optimator]

Clearly it refers to the class ability.

[Rubik]

Clearly it refers to the class ability.Pretty sure this is a case of Ability A = Ability A.

[.Zero]

Sorry for being insistent, can you reply on this? It's very important. Thanks! ;)

I didn't understand what you're trying to tell me. Is my dirty trick doable? I mean: am i considered undercumbered, when wild shaping and wearing a Wild-enhanced armor, for the purpose of the Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp AC bonus?

I also found this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-149136.html


Armor of the Beast (CC), Wild armor melds into your form and you are no longer considered to be wearing armor, but it still grants its AC bonus. You don't take the armor check penalty or movement penalties for wild armor, and your Monk AC bonus will apply when wearing it but only when wild shaped.

So somebody else thought of this trick before me, and I'm now even more convinced that this could be done.
Your thoughts?

[Bronk]

I'm curious* how you come to that conclusion?
The Monk's Belt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks) states:

The part about lethal damage comes under Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#unarmedStrike):

The Monk Class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) table has a column for the Unarmed Damage. This is talked about in the fourth paragraph of Unarmed Strike. It is separate from the lethal damage, the "Natural and Manufactured Weapons," and the Improved Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedUnarmedStrike) bonus feat. If the MB gave all of that, (i.e. the Unarmed Strike class feature,) then I would have no qualms with what you said, and the belt would likely be rather underpriced. As it is, you only get 1/4 of the CF:

*(...I'm using that term alot today...)

Because interestingly, any character, monster, or what have you can always use an unarmed attack based off of its BAB, which can be iterative with a high enough BAB, and if they have natural weapons too, they can throw those in at BAB-5 as secondary attacks. The only difference is that while you are wearing a monk's belt, as you pointed out, you get the 'unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk', and that damage is lethal, a larger die, and with your full strength behind it, which can make the option more advantageous.

That's just how natural weapons work with iterative attacks. I would say that most monsters aren't written in such a way as to take advantage of that, but it would make more sense if they advanced through class levels or had a magic item like the Monk's Belt... Or both, like a druid wearing the belt. Either way, that's the RAW. It seems to be the RAI too, if this is anything to go by:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

I would also point out that the wording of the belt's abilities doesn't pin them to any particular class feature, table or feat, and that goes for the AC bonus too. Any particular DM could read into it that way if they choose, of course.

[Rubik]

Sorry for being insistent, can you reply on this? It's very important. Thanks! ;)

I didn't understand what you're trying to tell me. Is my dirty trick doable? I mean: am i considered undercumbered, when wild shaping and wearing a Wild-enhanced armor, for the purpose of the Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp AC bonus?

I also found this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-149136.html

So somebody else thought of this trick before me, and I'm now even more convinced that this could be done.
Your thoughts?Are you talking to me, or to someone else? Adding some sort of delineation as to whom you're speaking would go a long way toward clearing that question up.

The answer to your question depends on whether you're considered wearing armor or not. You gain the benefits (the AC bonus and the special effects) of wearing the armor, but it's absorbed into your body, so you don't gain the max Dex penalty or the armor check penalty.

If you're considered wearing the armor, the monk's belt doesn't work. If you're not, then it does. So the question is, are you? The wild property in CC says no, so...

[prufock]

I generally prefer the belt. You need to stick wild onto the armor in order to get it to work in wild shape, which winds up costing about the same as a monk's belt+clasp, and if you actually are doing the feat plan, that just seems bad. Also, a monk's belt stacks really well with what a druid is capable of. You toss on luminous armor, and that's something like double-armor, and you can have an infinite dexterity bonus to AC, and druids can get pretty huge dexterity bonuses to AC. It's a good deal. You can often do better than buying either one, however, by buying something that augments your actual abilities. Getting a rod of lesser extend spell, or a ring of the beast is going to likely grant more power than either armor setup, and at a lower price at that.
Attach wilding clasps to the armor and shield. That's 8000 gp instead of 30000+. So 6800 + 8000 = 14800 compared to the monk's belt at 13000 + 4000 = 17000. Armor is still the cheaper option. Luminous Armor is great, but so is Magic Vestment.

I prefer the belt too, for several reasons: it applies to touch AC, it doesn't affect your speed, and I just like the aesthetic of a druid wearing no armor.

It might be underpriced, but I don't think it's off by that much. A druid is going to be wild shaping and probably doesn't care much about the unarmed damage. And yeah, it's better for druids and clerics than it is for anyone else (basically useless for most classes), but that's the case for many many items; they synergize with some classes better than others.


Imagine a 12th level cleric who has your fullplate, shield (and a cloak, ring and bracers of protection if we're going all out on ac) and a pheriapt of wisdom +4 and +3 from ability score increase. His wisdom will be 18+7=25 wich gives a +7 bonus on wisdom

Buying the monks belt willl then give you 8 ac for 13k gold without forcing you to increase the +X from your full plate, shield cloak, bracers or rings. This is, in my opinion, a very updgrade efficient way to increase your ac. Upgrading an item from +1 to +2 to get more ac from one item is very cost ineficient and, if possible, should be prevented.
Monk's belt and armor do not work together. You only get monk AC bonus if you are "unarmored and unencumbered."

[.Zero]

@Rubik, you're right. I meant "can you all reply on this"

@Anyone
Ok, so Wild Armor + Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp combo seems to work.
I'm now thinking to push this a little further: when i wild shape with Wild armor i no longer have max Dex limits and the like so... screw heavy armor and tower shield competence!
I Wild enhance the both of 'em and i'll end up with a resonably sky high AC, assuming Monk's Belt combo.
Is a Dragonhide Wild Fullplate Armor good? Will it be better to use spells to transform wood in iron? Or is there a better special material or a specific armor?

The next step will be find a way to stay in wild shape 24/7. Any suggestion?

[Shinken]

You can't use armor, any kind of armor, and still get the effect of the monk's belt.
Your best bet is something that grants an armor bonus without it being armor, such as (greater) mage armor, (greater) luminous armor of bracers of armor.

[hymer]

The next step will be find a way to stay in wild shape 24/7. Any suggestion?

Be a level 9 druid? Even level 8 may do. 3 wild shapes per day at one hour per wild shape, 8 hours needed to sleep.

[prufock]

I didn't understand what you're trying to tell me. Is my dirty trick doable? I mean: am i considered undercumbered, when wild shaping and wearing a Wild-enhanced armor, for the purpose of the Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp AC bonus?
Can you give me a page reference to the Complete Champion Wild armor enhancement? I can't see it, all I see is Armor of the Beast (137) which doesn't contain the text you quoted.

I misunderstood the context. That's a quote from the thread you linked, not from the book. However, it looks like my conclusion is correct. With the wild armor enchantment, you are still considered to be wearing the armor. Monk AC bonus does not work when you are wearing armor, ergo you can't stack them.

The DMG text says the following:

The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be made covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.
The armor can not be seen, but you are still the wearer of the armor. Since monk's belt only works if you are unarmored, the combo doesn't seem to work. However, I'm reserving judgment until I see the Complete Champion text for myself.

[sleepyphoenixx]

@Rubik, you're right. I meant "can you all reply on this"

@Anyone
Ok, so Wild Armor + Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp combo seems to work.
I'm now thinking to push this a little further: when i wild shape with Wild armor i no longer have max Dex limits and the like so... screw heavy armor and tower shield competence!
I Wild enhance the both of 'em and i'll end up with a resonably sky high AC, assuming Monk's Belt combo.
Is a Dragonhide Wild Fullplate Armor good? Will it be better to use spells to transform wood in iron? Or is there a better special material or a specific armor?

The next step will be find a way to stay in wild shape 24/7. Any suggestion?

Even if your DM rules that the combo works you'll be spending so much money on AC that you can't afford anything else. There's tons of better things to spend your gold on instead of AC.
Also, once you get to the point where even dedicated melee you encounter need a natural 20 to hit every additional point of AC is wasted because it does literally nothing.
Most of the time enemies don't have full BAB and maxed strength so you waste even more.

You can easily get level appropiate AC with a Monk's Belt and your spells. Spend your money on Pearls of Power to share the love or get something else instead.

[eggynack]

Luminous Armor is great, but so is Magic Vestment.

Perhaps, but luminous armor has two major advantages. First, it's better. Ignoring the ability damage, which you can pretty much do, luminous armor is just about strictly better, with a lower level, a higher AC bonus, and additional effects on top of that. Second, druids can cast it. You could always have a cleric in the party, but I feel like the degree to which I'm comfortable having my plans reliant on the resources of other party members goes down as my tier goes up. A well built druid should be pretty close to completely self sufficient, I think.

[.Zero]

I read the Wild enhancement text in the SRD, but I'm still in the mood that Monk's Belt AC bonus stacks with Wild armor.
When wild shaping, an armor melds into your body, becoming nonfunctional, and you lose max dex limits, movement limits and the like. Right? The Wild enhancement simply lets you retain armor's AC bonus while wild shaping, but the armor still melds into your body and you still lose max dex etc.
So, how can someone considered being wearing an armor when wild shaping? I mean, I'm not a full plated warrior type sorrounded by a furry bear-shaped robot. I'm not like Eren inside a Titan's neck. When i wild shape, i BECOME a bear, i AM a bear, and everything else in my possession melds within my new form together with my body.
And again, if it is true that i lose max dex limits etc (and in fact it's true), i truly believe that I'm considered unarmored while wild shaping.

Thoug I'm not going to spend all my money in AC.

@hymer
Mmh... i don't understand. At 12th level i can wild shape 4/day, at 12 hours duration each. But... let's say, i wake up and prepare my spells, then i wild shape into a desmodu bat and fly around for 3 hours (3 wild shape left, 9 hours left) It's time to fight and i need to go melee. Wild shape in dire bear and win the fight (2 wild shape left, 12 hours left).
Need to move across a river/canyon, wild shape in bat form and pass the canyon, move until the next fight for 2 hours (1 wild shape left, 10 hours left). Need to fight in melee again, wild shape in bear and win.
Now there are 18 hours left for the day but 8 hours are needed for sleep, so i can remain in bear form for the rest of the day. But what if i needed to move and fight more?
I'm hoping to find an effect similar to a Psychoactive Skin of Proteus, which grants an unlimited Metamorphosis effect to the wearer.

@Anyone
And what about other magic items and wild shape? Can i preserve my scrolls or eternal wands or metamagic rods of extend spell? I need to apply a Wilding Clasp to my bag?
Thanks.

[hymer]

@ .Zero: So stop switching all the time. If you're the group's melee, stay in your preferred melee form. If you spend most of your time casting, pick your preferred high-dex flight form, and if you get low on spells switch to your melee form. I play a seventh level druid, and I've yet to be in a situation where I'd wish I could shift, but didn't have the times per day to do it. This is obviously campaign dependent, but it really ought to be a problem you can plan end economize your way out of.