Born of the Three Thunders - understanding the feat

[Shining Wrath]

I'd like to take Born of the Three Thunders when my sorcerer hits level 6.


When you cast a spell with either the electricity descriptor or the sonic descriptor that deals hit point damage, you can declare that spell to be a spell of the three thunders, with half its damage dealt as electricity damage and half dealt as sonic damage. In addition, the spell concludes with a mighty thunderclap that stuns all creatures that take damage from the spell for 1 round unless they succeed on a Fortitude save, then knocks stunned creatures prone unless they succeed on a Reflex save (both saves at the same DC as the base spell). Channeling the three thunders is costly, though, and you are automatically dazed for 1 round after doing so. A three thunders spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level. In addition, its descriptor changes to include both energy types--for example, a lightning bolt of the three thunders is an evocation [electricity, sonic] spell.

My DM has ruled, though, that if I cast a damage-dealing spell using BotTT that has a duration longer than instant, that the thunderclap / stun / knockdown effect occurs when the duration ends; that is, he rules that "the spell concludes" means "when the effects of the spell end", not "when you finish casting". So if I drop, e.g., Arctic Haze with a duration of 1 hour per level on them, the stunning thunderclap occurs 6 hours in the future - but still works, even if they are now miles away.

Is this consistent with how others see the feat? Is there a WotC ruling somewhere?

Secondly, per DM, the dazed penalty hits IMMEDIATELY even if the spell has a duration. My question is, when the feat says "you are automatically dazed for one round", does that make you dazed until the end of this round, until the start of your next turn, or until the end of your next turn? I'd assume the latter, but again, a WotC ruling would be helpful.

Let us all now engage in a 3 Minute Hate of just how poorly WotC writes. This is far from the most confusing feat anyone is going to come across, but I'm hating on it, because it fits my character so well and yet is crippled by poor writing.

BTW, if anyone can come up with spells for me that

Do Acid / Cold / Fire / Electric / Sonic damage (Energy Substitution [Electric] a pre-req for BotTT)
Have an area effect so I can hit multiple targets
Either have no save or a save that isn't Reflex (because Evasion is a thing)
Are instant duration



I shall be most grateful, and your karmic cup shall overflow with goodness.

Yes, I know of Mettle. It's not as common as Evasion.

[Segev]

Your DM's reading is well within the RAW; in fact, it is a cleaner reading than I would have given it with the default assumption of the thunderclap happening immediately.

He's 100% right in that what he's said happens is correct according to the rules. Personally, I think you can make some interesting use of that, if you already have non-instantaneous spells you intend to use it on.

The daze effect does happen immediately upon finishing casting, and lasts until your turn next round starts.

[NoACWarrior]

Thats the issue with BotTT, its when the effect ends - so at the end of a call lightning / last lightning called. This is the way many DMs would rule the use of this metamagic feat.

The daze effect is a consequence of casting a BotTT spell, you suffer from it immediately after finishing the spell.

As for what you are asking - most AoEs have reflex saves which can be offset by evasion, only a few have either no save or fort saves.

For spells eligible for BotTT you also need to do some type of hitpoint damage (it also can be subdual).

[dextercorvia]

Scorching Ray can affect multiple targets, and has no reflex save. Also, reflex partial, as opposed to reflex half aren't affected by evasion.

Kelgore's Grave Mist has a decent sized area, and no saving throw.

[Zweisteine]

I'd say that the thunderclap occurs when you cast the spell, and the rest of the effect remains. Alternatively, I would rule that it only effects instantaneous spells, or I would evaluate non-instantaneous spells on a case-by-case basis.

Re-reading the feat, I would just say that the spell applies only to instantaneous spells, or spells that deal their damage instantaneously, with certain exceptions. There is really no way to explain continuous sonic damage, after all. Lightning bolt born of the three thunders would send out a bolt and a thunderclap. I would also allow the feat to effect spells that allow repeated (like call lightning), but not continuous, damage. Those spells would get a thunderclap each time they deal damage.
Spells like Lightning Ring (it deals damage to everyone near you, and lets you shoot lighting bolts) would either be unusable with the feat, or, more likely, I would only allow the feat to apply to the generated bolts, and the full effects of the feat would take place each time a bolt is generated.

What your DM doing, though it may apply to a strict reading of the feat, is rather unkind.

The ruling closest to the intention (besides "instantaneous only") is that the sonic effects occur each time the spell does damage, and possibly dazes you each time as well.

You shouldn't worry about it too much, though. Most damaging spells don't have a duration, and especially not electricity spells.

You should, however, bring up the point of spells like Call Lightning (there are a few that sorcerers get), which basically cast lightning bolt each round. I would suggest asking your DM for this ruing on spells such as that: The first bolt stuns enemies and dazes you, and the following bolts still deal half sonic damage, but nothing else.


Also don't forget that sorcerers take a long time to use metamagic, which might be a problem, unless your DM says 0-level metamagic feats can be applied instantaneously (unless that's already a rule).

[Darrin]

Hmmm. Not coming up with much that's Save: No, but how about:

Scalding Mud (Sandstorm). Similar to transmute rock to mud, the only save is if the mud falls on your target from the ceiling (Ref for half). Even if they make the save, your target is either still submerged in the mud or has to walk across it.

Ice Darts (Frostburn). Ranged touch attack, up to five darts, half [cold] damage, Save/SR = No.

Elemental Dart (Dragonlance Campaign Setting). Similar to ice darts, but Save is Fort Half, SR Yes.

Kaupaer's Quickblast (online article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050112a)). Ref save, but it autohits, already does electricty damage, and can be cast as a free/swift/immediate action.

[Shining Wrath]

Scorching Ray can affect multiple targets, and has no reflex save. Also, reflex partial, as opposed to reflex half aren't affected by evasion.

Kelgore's Grave Mist has a decent sized area, and no saving throw.

Yes it does - and a 1 round / level duration, so if used at level 6, a fight that lasted 6 rounds might have an interesting effect at the end.


Scalding Mud (Sandstorm). Similar to transmute rock to mud, the only save is if the mud falls on your target from the ceiling (Ref for half). Even if they make the save, your target is either still submerged in the mud or has to walk across it.

Ice Darts (Frostburn). Ranged touch attack, up to five darts, half [cold] damage, Save/SR = No.

Elemental Dart (Dragonlance Campaign Setting). Similar to ice darts, but Save is Fort Half, SR Yes.

Kaupaer's Quickblast (online article). Ref save, but it autohits, already does electricty damage, and can be cast as a free/swift/immediate action.

It has to be acid, cold, fire, electric, or sonic damage, so I think that invalidates Scalding Mud. It either has to start out Electric or Sonic, or be something upon which I can use Energy Substitution.
Ice Darts good, similar to Scorching Ray. That's a keeper.
Elemental Darts has the same problem as Scalding Mud.
I doubt my DM would let me use something from an online article if it's significantly different than PH / SC material, but I'll look that one up.

Many blessings on your camels!

[Shining Wrath]

I'd say that the thunderclap occurs when you cast the spell, and the rest of the effect remains. Alternatively, I would rule that it only effects instantaneous spells, or I would evaluate non-instantaneous spells on a case-by-case basis.

Re-reading the feat, I would just say that the spell applies only to instantaneous spells, or spells that deal their damage instantaneously, with certain exceptions. There is really no way to explain continuous sonic damage, after all. Lightning bolt born of the three thunders would send out a bolt and a thunderclap. I would also allow the feat to effect spells that allow repeated (like call lightning), but not continuous, damage. Those spells would get a thunderclap each time they deal damage.
Spells like Lightning Ring (it deals damage to everyone near you, and lets you shoot lighting bolts) would either be unusable with the feat, or, more likely, I would only allow the feat to apply to the generated bolts, and the full effects of the feat would take place each time a bolt is generated.

What your DM doing, though it may apply to a strict reading of the feat, is rather unkind.

The ruling closest to the intention (besides "instantaneous only") is that the sonic effects occur each time the spell does damage, and possibly dazes you each time as well.

You shouldn't worry about it too much, though. Most damaging spells don't have a duration, and especially not electricity spells.

You should, however, bring up the point of spells like Call Lightning (there are a few that sorcerers get), which basically cast lightning bolt each round. I would suggest asking your DM for this ruing on spells such as that: The first bolt stuns enemies and dazes you, and the following bolts still deal half sonic damage, but nothing else.


Also don't forget that sorcerers take a long time to use metamagic, which might be a problem, unless your DM says 0-level metamagic feats can be applied instantaneously (unless that's already a rule).

Using BotTT will be a full round action for me, but it won't be a higher level spell. We're using spell points so that means it will cost normal cost.

[NoACWarrior]

BTW, if anyone can come up with spells for me that

Do Acid / Cold / Fire / Electric / Sonic damage (Energy Substitution [Electric] a pre-req for BotTT)
Have an area effect so I can hit multiple targets
Either have no save or a save that isn't Reflex (because Evasion is a thing)
Are instant duration



As a note - I am including spells which target multiple things, but are not AoE since AoE is bad in that you can't control what you hit. Also I think BotTT still allows use on spells which do HP damage which isn't even of the required energy type so long as the spell has the right descriptor, but I weeded those spells out due to the "cheesy" nature of doing so. When I mention "wiz" it means sorcerer and wizard. When I designate "still damages" it means that even on a save damage is not reduced or a secondary damage effect is still in play (important vs mettle or whatever the other fort save evasion is called). Also organized first by multi target spells then AoE spells in order of higher spell level to lower, with single target spells and an AoE dependent on the result last.

And Now I present the

Instantaneous Spells which do damage to more than one target (which Evasion doesn't apply to) and fulfill the requirements for Born of Three Thunders metamagic feat (sometimes requiring the use of energy substitution) List:

Wizard / Sorcerer Spells:
Deadly Sunstroke (CMag, Fire 9) - multiple targets (1 per CL), fort half
Scalding Touch (MoE, Fire 7) - multiple targets (touch 1 per CL), fort partial (still damages)
Entomb (Frostburn, Cold 6) - multiple targets (1 per CL), fort partial (still damages)
Moonbow (SpC, Electricity 5) - 3 targets, no save
Dalamar's Lightning Lance (Dragonlance, Electricity 4) - multiple targets (1 per 5CL), fort half
Hailstones (SpC, Cold 3) - multiple targets (1 per 5CL), no save and no SR
Ice Darts (Frostburn, Cold 2) - multiple targets (+1 per 2CL over 3rd max 5), no save and no SR
Scorching Ray (PHB, Fire 2) - multiple targets (+1 per 4CL over 3rd max 3), no save
Elemental Dart (Dragonlance, Any 2) - multiple targets (+1 per 2CL over 3rd max 5), fort half
Shocking Spark (Dragonlance, Electricity 2) - multiple targets (sort of up to 3), no save
Burst of Glacial Wrath (DragMagic, Cold 9) - 30ft cone AoE, fort half
Channeled Sound Burst (CMag, Sonic 5) - cone length depends on action AoE, fort half
Earth Reaver (SpC, Fire 5) - 20ft spread AoE, reflex partial (still damages)
Shrieking Blast (HoB, Sonic 5) - 40ft radius burst, fort half
Shout (PHB, Sonic 4) - 30ft cone AoE, fort half
Parboil (Sand, Fire 4) - 20ft radius spread AoE, fort half
Palin's Pyre (Dragonlance, Fire 3) - 5ft squares AoE (1 per CL), reflex partial (still damages)
Detonate (PHBII, Fire 9) - single target (but AoE if fails fort save or dies), fort partial (if dies get AoE)
Ice Dagger (SpC, Cold 1) - single target but 5ft AoE around target for 1 damage, no save

Cleric Spells:
Erupt (SK, Fire 9) - 100ft burst AoE per level, fort half
Lion's Roar (SpC, Sonic 8) - 120ft radius burst AoE, fort half
Heat Drain (SpC, Cold 8) - 20ft radius burst AoE, fort negates
Earth Reaver (SpC, Fire 5) - 20ft spread AoE, reflex partial (still damages)
Parboil (Sand, Fire 5) - 20ft radius spread AoE, fort half
Sound Burst (PHB, Sonic 2) - 10ft ft radius spread, fort partial (still damages)

Druid Spells:
Leonal's Roar (BoED, Sonic 8) - 40ft radius spread AoE (non-good only), fort negates
Entomb (Frostburn, Cold 6) - multiple targets (1 per CL), fort partial (still damages)
Snow Wave (Frostburn, Cold 6) - 30ft cone AoE, fort half
Thunderous Roar (SpC, Sonic 3) - 20ft radius burst, fort half

Wu Jen Spells:
Deadly Sunstroke (CMag, Fire 9) - multiple targets (1 per CL), fort half
Internal Fire (CArc, Fire 9) - multiple targets (affect 1HD per CL), fort partial (still damages)
Shout (PHB, Sonic 4) - 30ft cone AoE, fort half
Ice Blast (CArc, Cold 2) - 30ft cone AoE, fort negates

Bard Spells:
Ice Darts (Frostburn, Cold 2) - multiple targets (+1 per 2CL over 3rd max 5), no save and no SR
Channeled Sound Burst (CMag, Sonic 5) - cone length depends on action AoE, fort half
Shout (PHB, Sonic 4) - 30ft cone AoE, fort half
Dissonant Chord (SpC, Sonic 3) - 10ft radius burst AoE, fort half
Sound Burst (PHB, Sonic 2) - 10ft ft radius spread, fort partial (still damages)

Assasin Spells:
Fire Shuriken (SpC, Fire 2) - multiple targets with phys attack (1 per 3 CL), no save


Full list:
Acid spells (you have to use energy sub to make into electricity)
None

Cold spells (you have to use energy sub to make into electricity)
Entomb (Frostburn, Dru 6 Wiz 6) - multiple targets (1 per CL), fort partial (still damages)
Hailstones (SpC, Wiz 3) - multiple targets (1 per 5CL), no save and no SR
Ice Darts (Frostburn, Bar 2 Wiz 2) - multiple targets (+1 per 2CL over 3rd max 5), no save and no SR
Burst of Glacial Wrath (DragMagic, Wiz 9) - 30ft cone AoE, fort half
Heat Drain (SpC, Cle 8) - 20ft radius burst AoE, fort negates
Snow Wave (Frostburn, Dru 6) - 30ft cone AoE, fort half
Ice Blast (CArc, WJ 2) - 30ft cone AoE, fort negates
Ice Dagger (SpC, Wiz 1) - single target but 5ft AoE around target for 1 damage, no save

Electricity
Moonbow (SpC, Wiz 5) - 3 targets, no save
Dalamar's Lightning Lance (Dragonlance, Wiz 4) - multiple targets (1 per 5CL), fort half
Shocking Spark (Dragonlance, Wiz 2) - multiple targets (sort of up to 3), no save

Fire (you have to use energy sub to make into electricity)
Deadly Sunstroke (CMag, Wiz 9 WJ 9) - multiple targets (1 per CL), fort half
Internal Fire (CArc, WJ 9) - multiple targets (affect 1HD per CL), fort partial (still damages)
Scalding Touch (MoE, Wiz 7) - multiple targets (touch 1 per CL), fort partial (still damages)
Scorching Ray (PHB, Wiz 2) - multiple targets (+1 per 4CL over 3rd max 3), no save
Fire Shuriken (SpC, Ass 2) - multiple targets with phys attack (1 per 3 CL), no save
Palin's Pyre (Dragonlance, Wiz 3) - 5ft squares AoE (1 per CL), reflex partial (still damages)
Erupt (SK, Cle 9) - 100ft burst AoE per level, fort half
Earth Reaver (SpC, Cle 5 Wiz 5) - 20ft spread AoE, reflex partial (still damages)
Parboil (Sand, Wiz 4 Cle 5) - 20ft radius spread AoE, fort half
Detonate (PHBII, Wiz 9) - single target (but AoE if fails fort save or dies), fort partial (if dies get AoE)

Sonic
Leonal's Roar (BoED, Dru 8) - 40ft radius spread AoE (non-good only), fort negates
Lion's Roar (SpC, Cle 8) - 120ft radius burst AoE, fort half
Channeled Sound Burst (CMag, Bar 5 Wiz 5) - cone length depends on action AoE, fort half
Shrieking Blast (HoB, Wiz 5) - 40ft radius burst, fort half
Shout (PHB, Bar 4 WJ 4 Wiz 4) - 30ft cone AoE, fort half
Dissonant Chord (SpC, Bar 3) - 10ft radius burst AoE, fort half
Thunderous Roar (SpC, Dru 3) - 20ft radius burst, fort half
Sound Burst (PHB, Bar 2 Cle 2) - 10ft ft radius spread, fort partial (still damages)

Any type (set to electricity)
Elemental Dart (Dragonlance, Wiz 2) - multiple targets (+1 per 2CL over 3rd max 5), fort half

[Ellowryn]

These are single target, but don't have any save vs the damage, but you should look at the Orb of x and the Lesser Orb of X spells from Complete Arcana.

[NoACWarrior]

I'd like to take Born of the Three Thunders when my sorcerer hits level 6.


Plead your DM for dragonlance spells since its one of the better options at level 6 for both AoE and damage. Otherwise your only AoE option is Ice dagger which does horrible damage. Other spells you could take a 6th level just don't have the multi targeting above 1 or 2 targets yet and are kind of ineffective for what you are trying to do (entire enemy target lockdown). I again emphasize the utility of mult targeting spells over AoE - they will allow you to make much better battlefield effects and not do friendly fire (except in the case of Palin's Pyre which is pretty much the best to use short of the higher level spells).

As for specific spells for you to take at level 6 -
Palin's Pyre (Dragonlance, Fire 3) - 5ft squares AoE (1 per CL), reflex partial (still damages)
Ice Dagger (SpC, Cold 1) - single target but 5ft AoE around target for 1 damage, no save

Spells you qualify for but probably shouldn't take at level 6 but could later - (you get only 2 targets at 6)
Ice Darts (Frostburn, Cold 2) - multiple targets (+1 per 2CL over 3rd max 5), no save and no SR
Elemental Dart (Dragonlance, Any 2) - multiple targets (+1 per 2CL over 3rd max 5), fort half
Shocking Spark (Dragonlance, Electricity 2) - multiple targets (sort of up to 3), no save

Spells you qualify for but probably shouldn't take at level 6 but could later - (you get only 1 target at 6)
Hailstones (SpC, Cold 3) - multiple targets (1 per 5CL), no save and no SR
Scorching Ray (PHB, Fire 2) - multiple targets (+1 per 4CL over 3rd max 3), no save

Spells you could take at the appropriate levels -
Deadly Sunstroke (CMag, Fire 9) - multiple targets (1 per CL), fort half
Scalding Touch (MoE, Fire 7) - multiple targets (touch 1 per CL), fort partial (still damages)
Entomb (Frostburn, Cold 6) - multiple targets (1 per CL), fort partial (still damages)
Moonbow (SpC, Electricity 5) - 3 targets, no save
Dalamar's Lightning Lance (Dragonlance, Electricity 4) - multiple targets (1 per 5CL), fort half
Burst of Glacial Wrath (DragMagic, Cold 9) - 30ft cone AoE, fort half
Channeled Sound Burst (CMag, Sonic 5) - cone length depends on action AoE, fort half
Earth Reaver (SpC, Fire 5) - 20ft spread AoE, reflex partial (still damages)
Shrieking Blast (HoB, Sonic 5) - 40ft radius burst, fort half
Shout (PHB, Sonic 4) - 30ft cone AoE, fort half
Parboil (Sand, Fire 4) - 20ft radius spread AoE, fort half
Detonate (PHBII, Fire 9) - single target (but AoE if fails fort save or dies), fort partial (if dies get AoE)

[Darrin]

It has to be acid, cold, fire, electric, or sonic damage, so I think that invalidates Scalding Mud.


Nope. It has the [fire] descriptor and does fire damage. I think it has the best damage output of all the "Kill It With Lava" spells, even though it doesn't actually use lava.



Elemental Darts has the same problem as Scalding Mud.


Not really, as it has the [electricity] descriptor and it does electrical damage.

[TuggyNE]

My DM has ruled, though, that if I cast a damage-dealing spell using BotTT that has a duration longer than instant, that the thunderclap / stun / knockdown effect occurs when the duration ends; that is, he rules that "the spell concludes" means "when the effects of the spell end", not "when you finish casting". So if I drop, e.g., Arctic Haze with a duration of 1 hour per level on them, the stunning thunderclap occurs 6 hours in the future - but still works, even if they are now miles away.

Is this consistent with how others see the feat? Is there a WotC ruling somewhere?

As far as I can tell, that's correct.


Secondly, per DM, the dazed penalty hits IMMEDIATELY even if the spell has a duration. My question is, when the feat says "you are automatically dazed for one round", does that make you dazed until the end of this round, until the start of your next turn, or until the end of your next turn? I'd assume the latter, but again, a WotC ruling would be helpful.

The first part of this is definitely correct; I would consider being dazed for one round to include the entirety of your next turn: dazing starts immediately after you finish casting, which is thus the end of that turn, and goes for one round, i.e. until the end of your next turn.

[Shining Wrath]

As a note - I am including spells which target multiple things, but are not AoE since AoE is bad in that you can't control what you hit. Also I think BotTT still allows use on spells which do HP damage which isn't even of the required energy type so long as the spell has the right descriptor, but I weeded those spells out due to the "cheesy" nature of doing so. When I mention "wiz" it means sorcerer and wizard. When I designate "still damages" it means that even on a save damage is not reduced or a secondary damage effect is still in play (important vs mettle or whatever the other fort save evasion is called). Also organized first by multi target spells then AoE spells in order of higher spell level to lower, with single target spells and an AoE dependent on the result last.

And Now I present the

Instantaneous Spells which do damage to more than one target (which Evasion doesn't apply to) and fulfill the requirements for Born of Three Thunders metamagic feat (sometimes requiring the use of energy substitution) List:

... AMAZING GOODNESS ...

Wonderful. Thank you very much, NoACWarrior. I am in your eternal debt. :smallsmile::smallsmile::smallsmile::smallsmile::s mallsmile::smallsmile::smallsmile::smallsmile:

BTW, Sorcerer ability to add spells from non Wiz-Sorc list starting at level 4 may come in handy. Negotiations with DM will be necessary but I know where he lives :smallbiggrin: