An initiator by any other name....

[Windstorm]

Something that has been rolling around in my head for a bit, and I'd like the playground's take on it.

How does the game change (good or bad) if you start applying the initiator level system from Tome of Battle to other sub-systems? For the purposes of the thought experiment: : each full progression class of a type is +1, non-type or half-progression classes are +0.5. current list of potential applications:

Psionic manifester level
Incarnum binds
Incarnum Meldshaping
Caster Levels (divine and arcane separate)


Overall from what tinkering I have done so far, the whole system feels much more flexible and allows a broader range of potential options without as much penalty. Incarnum has been a tricky beast to deal with, as it remains one of the areas that I do not have mastery of yet.

what say you playground? worth exploring further or simply a terrible idea?

[Werephilosopher]

Getting another +0.5 to caster or manifester level doesn't matter unless you also take levels in a casting or manifesting class. So you're giving casters and manifesters more incentive to dip other classes, meaning casters get nice things even though the initiator system- along with the rest of ToB- was designed to give melee'ers a much needed leg up.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think casters and manifesters need another bonus. The meldshaping idea might be nice, though.

[Waker]

Psionic manifester level
Incarnum binds
Incarnum Meldshaping
Caster Levels (divine and arcane separate)

Progressing Manifester and Caster levels would make dips and multiclassing more friendly in general, but it would in the end give even more power to spellcasters. I would be extremely hesitant to implement a change like this.
Meldshaping levels wouldn't ultimately have a huge impact on the game, since there aren't a large amount of soulmelds that are dependent on level. Implementing the change would be fine. When you say Incarnum Binds are you referring to the Chakra Binds? This would be somewhat bothersome to figure out and not strictly necessary since there are feats that open the Chakra Binds. A better option might be gaining extra essentia or maybe increasing the maximum number of soulmelds.

[EisenKreutzer]

It certainly makes multiclass spellcasters lives easier. Do we want that?

[Windstorm]

part of my thinking on this is that for spellcasters it doesn't neccessarily advance spells known just like being a 5th level initiator doesn't change your maneuvers known, taking an initiator class does. what it does do is keep multiclass or hybrid spellcasters slightly more relevant than they might otherwise be, since it allows them to have some nice things that are tied to caster level (save DCs, crafting, SR pen). psionics is a very similar deal, though I'm not quite sure if it should affect power points or not, powers known is definitely out.

for incarnum I had been leaning toward essentia, the incarnum side of things I'm still trying to find good solutions to.

[nyjastul69]

part of my thinking on this is that for spellcasters it doesn't neccessarily advance spells known just like being a 5th level initiator doesn't change your maneuvers known, taking an initiator class does. what it does do is keep multiclass or hybrid spellcasters slightly more relevant than they might otherwise be, since it allows them to have some nice things that are tied to caster level (save DCs, crafting, SR pen). psionics is a very similar deal, though I'm not quite sure if it should affect power points or not, powers known is definitely out.

for incarnum I had been leaning toward essentia, the incarnum side of things I'm still trying to find good solutions to.

Save DC's are not tied to CL, they are tied to spell level.

[Windstorm]

Save DC's are not tied to CL, they are tied to spell level.

and that's what I get for not having a book open in front of me while posting.

I still think it has some merit since losing spell level progression hurts most casters, the question is how much of a spellcaster's power comes from CL vs spells known and highest spell level. I would argue that the latter has a lot more weight in the power department.

[squiggit]

I sort of agree with the sentiment "Do we really need to give casters more toys?!"

But on the other hand there are quite a few cool PrCs that end up getting thrown in the dumpster because they lack CL progression.

[HunterOfJello]

I don't know what you guys are smoking. Giving people options to go into melee classes while not completely ruining their caster progression sounds like a great idea to me. It doesn't make pure casters any stronger than they already are and would just encourage people to try other gish options while watering down their casting in the process.

You can already do this to a certain extent with the Ardent class. You can take 4 levels in any class then 1 level in Ardent and the Practiced Manifester feat in order to be able to manifest powers of a higher level as if you were a level 5 Ardent. You won't have the power points or powers known, but it can be a great dip and option for a partial manifesting character.

[VoxRationis]

I always thought the "DC is based on spell level" thing to be a real pain. I know you're going to all yell at me about how casters already have all the "nice things" and all, but don't you think it sad that a wizard's low-level spells grow increasingly irrelevant as enemy save bonuses increase, or odd that a sleep spell cast by an archmage is only marginally better than that of an apprentice?

[PsyBomb]

For Spellcasting and Psionics, it's simple to apply. CL tracks on them, and having no other benefit to it isn't that bad. Would encourage Gishes to take that second level of Fighter, since it wouldn't cost them a caster level. Take note that it does NOT up their spells known or PP/SPD, still very fair.

Incarnum... that's a WHOLE other beast, since the classes all progress Essentia and Binds differently and the Soulmelds themselves don't really track your Meldshaper level for anything unless someone is trying to dispel one. you need to make it less powerful towards Meldshaping than taking a Soulborn level. Even then, people would dip the minimum level needed to make the bonuses show up, if you progress Essentia/Binds/Melds at all, since it would give access to several extremely powerful effects (+10 Grapple on a 1-level dip is grossly OP in any build that cares about it, for example). The way Incarnum works would pretty much have to be rewritten from scratch to fit the system and give any benefit at all.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder's 3rd-party conversion of the Binder (the Occultist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/radiance-house/occultist)) does this and it works out just fine - so I would say yes, apply it everywhere. (Except to actual spellcasting/psionics, those are powerful enough.)

[Coidzor]

The only build that's not gishing or theurging that seems to really helped by such a thing being applied to CL and ML is the Ardent, since between that and Practiced Manifester they'd have 18/2 = 9 + 2 + 4 = manifesting as a 15th level Ardent at 20th level for an investment of 2 levels and a feat, at least, if I'm remembering how they function correctly. :smallconfused: The only other thing it does is take some of the sting off of losing 2 caster levels by making it into 1 lost caster level, since once you've lost 4 or more caster levels it's not that big of a deal one way or the other.

And Theurges could use the love and Gishes are only moderately helped unless they're being sub-optimal in which case they could probably use the love.

It's just a caster level/manifester level, rather than anything else that goes along with it. Though I suppose with shenanigans a psionic character would be able to burn feats to get higher level powers, but the issue would be more with the shenanigans themselves, since they could already basically do the same thing as a Kalashtar+feat or with a [Host] feat if a DM were to allow it at all.

I suppose if one allowed a certain interpretation it could count for Paladins and Rangers and thus give them full caster level, but, really, where would the harm in that be? :smallconfused:


For Spellcasting and Psionics, it's simple to apply. CL tracks on them, and having no other benefit to it isn't that bad. Would encourage Gishes to take that second level of Fighter, since it wouldn't cost them a caster level. Take note that it does NOT up their spells known or PP/SPD, still very fair.

Incarnum... that's a WHOLE other beast, since the classes all progress Essentia and Binds differently and the Soulmelds themselves don't really track your Meldshaper level for anything unless someone is trying to dispel one. you need to make it less powerful towards Meldshaping than taking a Soulborn level. Even then, people would dip the minimum level needed to make the bonuses show up, if you progress Essentia/Binds/Melds at all, since it would give access to several extremely powerful effects (+10 Grapple on a 1-level dip is grossly OP in any build that cares about it, for example). The way Incarnum works would pretty much have to be rewritten from scratch to fit the system and give any benefit at all.

Eh, both make it less than Soulborn and also make Soulborn worth something, but yeah... how you'd apply it to Meldshaping is a bit wonkier and would likely require some re-writing of the system. So work, but not necessarily work that couldn't lead to making the system more awesome.


Progressing Manifester and Caster levels would make dips and multiclassing more friendly in general, but it would in the end give even more power to spellcasters. I would be extremely hesitant to implement a change like this.

:smallconfused:

Gishing generally decreases the power of spellcasters and should be encouraged if one is worried about spellcaster power.

Theurging almost always decreases the power of spellcasters, but generally to the point where it should be discouraged, even if one has concerns about spellcaster power.

The loss of spell levels from suboptimal casting PrCs would still outweigh the moderate increase to caster level.

Now if it was that one gained +1 spellcasting level for every 2 levels that didn't grant that, so I guess 4/10 or 5/10 Spellcasting PrCs would become 7/10 and 8/10 would jump to 9/10, that'd be a different story.

[Windstorm]

my read on partial progression classes is that they remain as they are, since they were designed that way intentionally, or alternatively they only gain +1 CL (again, no spells known) for every 2 levels that do not progress casting at all.


Gishing generally decreases the power of spellcasters and should be encouraged if one is worried about spellcaster power.

Theurging almost always decreases the power of spellcasters, but generally to the point where it should be discouraged, even if one has concerns about spellcaster power.

The loss of spell levels from suboptimal casting PrCs would still outweigh the moderate increase to caster level.

this is exactly where I was approaching this from. it provides more build options that have a general trend towards lower optimization by utilizing it, but gives just enough of an edge back to make normally completely unattractive options viable playstyles.

[The Viscount]

I agree with the general consensus that using the initiator system for casters and manifesters would be a bad idea. It would make a great difference on limited casting classes like Ur-Priest, and that change would be dangerously unbalanced.


Incarnum... that's a WHOLE other beast, since the classes all progress Essentia and Binds differently and the Soulmelds themselves don't really track your Meldshaper level for anything unless someone is trying to dispel one. you need to make it less powerful towards Meldshaping than taking a Soulborn level. Even then, people would dip the minimum level needed to make the bonuses show up, if you progress Essentia/Binds/Melds at all, since it would give access to several extremely powerful effects (+10 Grapple on a 1-level dip is grossly OP in any build that cares about it, for example). The way Incarnum works would pretty much have to be rewritten from scratch to fit the system and give any benefit at all.

I agree that advancing incarnum is a very complicated matter, but I think you are overestimating the power it gives.

[Terazul]

I don't think that's the actual current consensus, but that aside:

For primary spellcasters, this doesn't really change anything, since they were likely to stay in their main casting class anyway (because you don't really want to lose spells known progression). For things like Gishes and sidecasters they get a little more bang for their buck out of their spells with the extra few CLs (also means many won't have to drop a feat on Practiced Spellcaster). On the psionics side it's pretty much the same, though with one caveat: if you can find a way to get extra power points (Kalashtar, other psionic race) you get a little more out of it, since you'll be able to augment powers to your full ML, but again you need the PP to do it in the first place, and powers are generally weaker than spells so it averages out. Ardent is a special case.

[Vedhin]

Well, let's run through various subsystems.

Caster level: Not spells known or per day. It would generally make gishes more appealing, and give blasting a good boost. It makes interesting PrCs that lose spellcasting levels a bit more useful.

Manifester level: You have to watch out here. The highest level of power you can manifest is tied directly to manifest level, so as Coidzor touched upon, feats could let psionic character grab higher level powers known. The power point reserve is also tied to manifester level, at least the points from a high ability score. You'd have to put in specific exceptions to avoid this, which could be annoying for bookkeeping.

Incarnum: A simple boost to meldshaper level won't really have much effect at all. A small essentia increase might be nice, perhaps 1/2 non-incarnum levels.

Soulbinding: A boost to effective binder level would be cool. You'd have to make a rule preventing access to new vestiges via this method though, unless you want to do as the Occultist did.

Shadowcasting: The Shadowcaster needs whatever it can get.

Invokers: Progression for caster level would be handy. Maybe even Eldritch Blast or the breath weapon.