Dragon PCs at First Level?

[Lord Lemming]

I'm wondering what the options are for creating a dragon PC, both in general and for our first-level party, preferably without it being horrendously overpowered (though it wouldn't really matter too much if it was.) Our Pathfinder group is new, both to role-playing in general and Pathfinder in particular. I'm considered our resident rules lawyer, not because I'm any more experienced than anyone else, but just because I've studied the rulebook most thoroughly. My little 6-year old cousin wants to join the game, and we want to let him, and I talked to him about what kind of character he wants to play. His response? Dragon.

Well, not entirely accurate. He first wanted to be a wizard, but I think that requires a bit too much thought for someone his age, but his second choice was being a dragon. So now I need to know what the rules are for playing as a monster with no stats for PCs. How do I start them off? How do they level up? I'd prefer to keep his power level reasonably in line with the rest of the party (A sorcerer, a cleric, a rogue, a fighter and a bard) but it doesn't really matter if he's overpowered, since he's six and we're all new. It might even make things more fun.

[EisenKreutzer]

Check out the Draconomicon for 3.5, it has rules for Dragon characters.

[Zweisteine]

DO NOT LET A FIRST-TIME PLAYER, ESPECIALLY A YOUNG ONE, PLAY A MONSTER. IT IS A CONFUSING BUSINESS. (See the guide linked in my signature if you have no choice, or even if you're not doing it. It's nice stuff to know.)

Sorcerer is the best you can do. They get magic like Wizards, are often descended from dragons, and are a relatively simple class to create and play.
Also, a blaster-type sorcerer is easiest, even if it is suboptimal.
If you want to push it, Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer is nice (it basically looks like a dragonperson, which is nice). (You could even give dragonwrought as a bonus feat, and treat it as one race, to reduce confusion.)

Recommendations:
Bump Sorc hit die up to a d6.
Give them more skills points, and UMD as a class skill.
Let them cast spells as if they were up a level (so they get new spell levels on odd levels).

Whatever you do, don't try to add confusing tricks like venerable dragonwrought kobolds with the draconic rights of passage, or PrCs, until he gets the game.

And good luck getting a 6-year-old to play D&D.

[Coidzor]

A certain interpretation of the Ambush Drake (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a) savage progression would allow a 1 HD, ECL 1 dragon. I believe that's likely the only non-Kobold option.

If you want to go Kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), take the web enhancement version for more dragony-goodneess. A Dragonwrought(feat, page 100? of Races of the Dragon) Kobold and a flaw or two to allow them to take Dragon Tail and Dragon Wings as feats. First level as a Dragonfire Adept (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2)(Dragon Magic) or Totemist(Magic of Incarnum). Maybe Dragon Shaman if limited by sources, but I believe the breath weapon is the pits. The Desert Kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds)vari ant from Unearthed Arcana and also available from the SRD is also sometimes recommended over bog standard kobold for a better Constitution score.

Totemist is more for the natural attacks blender aspect of dragonkind(and is also known as a "build your own monster" class) and Dragonfire Adept has some magic tricks and a nifty breath weapon. You'd have to come up with a homebrew PrC to really combine both though, unfortunately.

This'll be relevant to your interests (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook) as well, most likely.

[Ironsides]

If you don't mind some homebrew you could always go with community made improved monster classes. I am new to D&D in general so I don't know how balanced they are but if everyone is playing a dragon then it shouldn't be too bad.

Here is the link:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?182724-Community-Based-Monster-Classes-VI

[Lord Lemming]

DO NOT LET A FIRST-TIME PLAYER, ESPECIALLY A YOUNG ONE, PLAY A MONSTER. IT IS A CONFUSING BUSINESS. (See the guide linked in my signature if you have no choice, or even if you're not doing it. It's nice stuff to know.)

Oooh, that guide might actually work. I'm going to be building his character for him anyway, so I'm not concerned about the complexity. Thanks!

[Yogibear41]

See if he will go for a Dragon Born of Bahamut, also once again good luck playing with a 6 year old, in my experience the majority of players who were even in there teens were morons and/or time hogs.

Alternatively use a homebrew, the improved monster classes on this website or the ones on min-max boards are fine. Alternatively to that Alternative, there are 2 dragon magazines that have all the true dragons of the 1st MM stated out with level 1-20 classes (LA included) honestly they seem rather bad though.

#332 for chromatic, and #320 for metallic

[RedMage125]

While I concur that you should not be letting a 1st time player play a monster (or a wizard, good call there), I CAN answer your question.

In 3.5e there was a series of Dragon Magazine Articles, if you can get old issues of Dragon (even on PDF), you can find them.

Dragon #320 had Savage Species - style progressions for playing Metallic Dragons

Dragon #332 had the same for Chromatic Dragons.

PM me if you're having trouble finding these. I have a few resources I can help you out with that I'd rather not discuss in a public forum.

But again, that's more for your future reference, I do not, by any means, advise letting the 6 year old play one of these.

But to add to the earlier sorcerer suggestion...since your party seems to have their basic roles covered, there's no harm at all letting this kid play something underpowered or odd, just let him play it because it's cool. I suggest letting him play a sorcerer, and going for Dragon Disciple, that way, he gets to be a spellcaster who gradually turns himself into a (half-)dragon. There could be no cooler thing to a 6 year old. And ultimately...Cool trumps Power.

[Windstorm]

Oooh, that guide might actually work. I'm going to be building his character for him anyway, so I'm not concerned about the complexity. Thanks!

if he's wanting to play a true dragon, even with the most favorable possible rulings its not happening until ECL 9 at absolute best using the proper rules for playing a dragon in the draconomicon.

complexity I would argue is a concern, because not only are you playing something that is distinctly different from a normal character, but also you have many system-wide unintended consequences that are difficult to know how to deal with without a fairly decent level of system mastery. on top of the unintended consequences, most monsters have non-standard abilities that are difficult for newer players to grasp.

my suggestion if he really wants dragon flavor but a fun thing to ease into playing D&D with, give him a half dragon crusader, using the dragon racial class in the Races of the Dragon book. all the complexity is in the creation and character sheet updates, but the abilities are very, very straightforward and simple to grasp mechanically. by the final level of the template class he gets the dragon breath, if he wants wings or tail there is a feat for that, the bonuses to strength simply help him do his thing better (hitting people with big pointy objects)

the reason I recommend crusader is that as far as fighter type classes go, it gives options without being too in your face about it. simply grab the appropriate ToB maneuver cards here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) print them on some light cardstock, and then when playing he is presented with a limited but effective set of options by drawing from his deck. (and it allows you to build the deck when you make the character, so you can make sure the choices are effective :smallwink:) another advantage is having the material printed directly there, so its easy for anyone to explain to him what the special thing does if he doesn't understand it.

Tried it on my nephew a couple years ago, he was 10, and I don't think he's had as much fun in any D&D game since.

[Gavinfoxx]

You should read this...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303204

[Lord Lemming]

Thanks for the help, guys. There are enough guides here to bury me in character sheets for years, which is just what I needed.

[Soarel]

I'm wondering what the options are for creating a dragon PC, both in general and for our first-level party, preferably without it being horrendously overpowered (though it wouldn't really matter too much if it was.) Our Pathfinder group is new, both to role-playing in general and Pathfinder in particular. I'm considered our resident rules lawyer, not because I'm any more experienced than anyone else, but just because I've studied the rulebook most thoroughly. My little 6-year old cousin wants to join the game, and we want to let him, and I talked to him about what kind of character he wants to play. His response? Dragon.

Well, not entirely accurate. He first wanted to be a wizard, but I think that requires a bit too much thought for someone his age, but his second choice was being a dragon. So now I need to know what the rules are for playing as a monster with no stats for PCs. How do I start them off? How do they level up? I'd prefer to keep his power level reasonably in line with the rest of the party (A sorcerer, a cleric, a rogue, a fighter and a bard) but it doesn't really matter if he's overpowered, since he's six and we're all new. It might even make things more fun.

He's 6 years old. A true Dragon PC would be far to much for the kid to handle. You should try having him be a Kobold or other dragon-like humanoid race. If he complains,explain to him that dragons would eat the other players and that he should be something a bit more their size. o*v*o