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View Full Version : Introducing Heart of Darkness. Playtesters wanted!



Talakeal
2014-04-08, 09:23 PM
After a decade of work I have finally finished my RPG and have released a public playtest document.

Heart of Darkness is an old school RPG ideal for running games of Sword and Sorcery Adventures, Greek Epics, Gothic Horror, Arthurian Romance, and everything in between, with an emphasis on character customization and player freedom.

You can download the full playtest rulebook at http://heartofdarknessrpg.com and I would love it if some of you guys could read or even play it and give me some feedback for the final release.

Also, thanks to everyone on the playground for all the advice they have given me as a GM and as a Game Designer over the years, you have been a great help!

2E Phoinex
2014-04-08, 10:28 PM
Is the title a Joseph Conrad allusion? Or did it just seem to fit?

Talakeal
2014-04-08, 10:40 PM
Is the title a Joseph Conrad allusion? Or did it just seem to fit?

Yes to both :) It isn't directly (or even remotely) based on Conrad's novel, but it has a very similar tone and many of the same themes.

ImperatorV
2014-04-09, 09:15 AM
How much are you going to pay me?

I kid, I don't even charge for playtesting video games, and that's my specialty. I'll take a look at this.

Edit:

Okay first of all: 600 pages. :smallannoyed:

PH3.5 is 330. Only War core rule book is 400-something. Heart of Darkness has 600. Even discounting the 100 or so pages of fluff, that's a lot.

Second: the mechanics seem simple and straightforward, but there are a LOT of mechanics (see above). This makes it hard to picture what the system would play like.

I would recommend, first of all, GMing a game of this here via PbP. Get some exposure and teach some play testers how to actually play the game, so they can introduce it to friends. Also, when you publish the finished version, I would heavily recommend having a QuickStart guide, pre-made adventure, or at least some examples of play. From a playability perspective, that is more important than the pretty pictures and nice formatting.

Bottom line: good system, but needs a way to ease players in.

Talakeal
2014-04-09, 10:56 AM
How much are you going to pay me?

I kid, I don't even charge for playtesting video games, and that's my specialty. I'll take a look at this.

Edit:

Okay first of all: 600 pages. :smallannoyed:

PH3.5 is 330. Only War core rule book is 400-something. Heart of Darkness has 600. Even discounting the 100 or so pages of fluff, that's a lot.

Second: the mechanics seem simple and straightforward, but there are a LOT of mechanics (see above). This makes it hard to picture what the system would play like.

I would recommend, first of all, GMing a game of this here via PbP. Get some exposure and teach some play testers how to actually play the game, so they can introduce it to friends. Also, when you publish the finished version, I would heavily recommend having a QuickStart guide, pre-made adventure, or at least some examples of play. From a playability perspective, that is more important than the pretty pictures and nice formatting.

Bottom line: good system, but needs a way to ease players in.


Yeah, I will agree that 600 pages is certainly daunting, but I wanted one book with the complete system and setting, which in D&D would be 3 core books + a campaign book and well over a thousand pages, so I don't think I was too long winded. Heck, the Pathfinder PHB is almost 600 pages long by itself.

I don't have a quick start guide or a pre-made adventure yet, I basically just wanted to get it out as I have been sitting on it for far too long, but they are definitely things I plan on adding in the future.

As for PbP I have no experience running such a game, but if there is interest I would certainly give it a try.

ImperatorV
2014-04-09, 11:29 AM
Yeah, I will agree that 600 pages is certainly daunting, but I wanted one book with the complete system and setting, which in D&D would be 3 core books + a campaign book and well over a thousand pages, so I don't think I was too long winded. Heck, the Pathfinder PHB is almost 600 pages long by itself.

I don't have a quick start guide or a pre-made adventure yet, I basically just wanted to get it out as I have been sitting on it for far too long, but they are definitely things I plan on adding in the future.

As for PbP I have no experience running such a game, but if there is interest I would certainly give it a try.

Your call. I might run one myself in a few weeks when I'm less busy. You might want to consider writing up a quick walk-through (character creation and combat mainly) and post it here and any other forums you have it up on, so people can jump in more easily.

Talakeal
2014-04-09, 12:14 PM
Your call. I might run one myself in a few weeks when I'm less busy. You might want to consider writing up a quick walk-through (character creation and combat mainly) and post it here and any other forums you have it up on, so people can jump in more easily.

Definitely. I will probably post one this evening. Thanks for the advice and the interest!

neonchameleon
2014-04-10, 05:43 AM
Okay first of all: 600 pages. :smallannoyed:

PH3.5 is 330. Only War core rule book is 400-something. Heart of Darkness has 600. Even discounting the 100 or so pages of fluff, that's a lot.

This. 600 pages is just far too much. Especially when you need to wade through 100 pages of fluff before you even start getting to such important things as how to create a character.

Is there any reason you need to know about the specific world the game is set in in order to play? I couldn't see one - meaning that in order to start playing the game is asking you to wade through novel-length fiction (90 big pages is worth a good 180 paperback book pages if not more) and world building.

And that's generally the problem I had with the entire pdf. It did not ever give me a reason to care. Why should I care about your world and the 100 pages you want me to wade through before getting to anything to do with rules? Pass. What is your system meant to be good at? Pass. Why would I want to play it in preference to D&D 4e, Pathfinder, GURPS, Fate, Fiasco, or Apocalpyse World? Pass.

The book needs to sell the game (the huge mistake made in the 4e books). And frankly it doesn't - and a lot of things such as 600 pages and having to wade through 100 pages of setting to get to anything to do with character creation un-sell me fast.

Talakeal
2014-04-10, 11:31 AM
This. 600 pages is just far too much. Especially when you need to wade through 100 pages of fluff before you even start getting to such important things as how to create a character.

Is there any reason you need to know about the specific world the game is set in in order to play? I couldn't see one - meaning that in order to start playing the game is asking you to wade through novel-length fiction (90 big pages is worth a good 180 paperback book pages if not more) and world building.

And that's generally the problem I had with the entire pdf. It did not ever give me a reason to care. Why should I care about your world and the 100 pages you want me to wade through before getting to anything to do with rules? Pass. What is your system meant to be good at? Pass. Why would I want to play it in preference to D&D 4e, Pathfinder, GURPS, Fate, Fiasco, or Apocalpyse World? Pass.

The book needs to sell the game (the huge mistake made in the 4e books). And frankly it doesn't - and a lot of things such as 600 pages and having to wade through 100 pages of setting to get to anything to do with character creation un-sell me fast.

It is a story heavy game, if that isn't for you than it isn't for you.

Also, there is nothing stopping you from skipping the fluff if you just want the crunch. I would suggest only using chapters two, three, four, and the first half of five if you just want to look at the basic mechanics.

That being said, The word count is no higher than pathfinder or gurps, and the percentage of that word count dedicated to storyline is no higher than your average white wolf game. Grabbing both mage and exalted off of my shelf they don't get to the rules until 80 or 90 pages in.

This is still useful feedback btw, so thanks for at least taking the time to post it. I have already uploaded a quick start rules guide, and am updating it as we speak to address your concerns.

JustPlayItLoud
2014-04-10, 11:29 PM
As a fellow New Mexican I feel almost obligated to give it at least a read through. I'm off work tomorrow and will be nursing a broken toe so I'll download it an start reading through it. I can probably put together a group that would be willing to play test it at some point as well.

Talakeal
2014-04-11, 01:42 AM
As a fellow New Mexican I feel almost obligated to give it at least a read through. I'm off work tomorrow and will be nursing a broken toe so I'll download it an start reading through it. I can probably put together a group that would be willing to play test it at some point as well.

Awesome! As some of the others have said, I understand it is a bit of a daunting task, and I really appreciate whatever progress you make :)


Also, I have had zero luck finding play-testers, or a gaming group in general, since I moved down here from California. If you actually find people who are interested I would be more than happy to take the trip up to Albuquerque to run some demo games.

Z3ro
2014-04-11, 12:26 PM
Alright, I did a brief read-through of the system, and here are some of my thouhgts (full disclosure, I did not read the entire book and skimmed some sections).

1. As everyone has said, it's long. And I don't mean long in page count, long in the amount required to read to even start putting a character together. Forget the fluff, there's things missing like a simple skill table laying out every skill, which would make things much easier to understand. You have to read through a lot before you can finish putting your character together.

2. Speaking of skills, it seems to me there are a lot of them. And not a lot of them in the good, well-rounded character way, but a lot of them in the ‘no one will ever use them’ kind of way. You fall a little bit into the 3.5 trap and have similar skills that could be combined. For example, I don’t see the point in separating out the Acrobatics and Athletics skills. They cover a lot of the same territory, and given the evade action of acrobatics, I don’t see many people making athletics one of their primary/secondary skills.

3. Character creation; it’s not very organized. You should move the section detailing the steps (page 169) before you lay out those steps; I was very confused the first time I read through how exactly I picked skills and attributes. Listing the steps before explaining in detail is always a good idea, especially here.

4. Magic; you need to have it condensed. You mention spell casting in the occult skill, then the enlightenment trait, then finally there’s a chapter on magic. I’d figure out a way to condense it down so the player is more easily able to figure out the magic system. Heck, I passed right by the occult skill the first time and didn’t think you could cast spells!

5. Speaking of casting spells, in the occult skill you mention there are fifteen different occult skills, but don’t actually lay them out. Are they occult skill (restoration) for example? If so you should spell that out.

6. Many of the traits feel same-y and don’t offer significant changes to the character. I know they’re listed as minor for a reason, but I just feel like listing a character as Confident and giving him a plus 1 to leadership isn’t functionally different from just giving him a plus 1 to leadership.

7. The skill system also, I feel, pushes people down the Fallout 3 path, i.e. everyone has a super-high intelligence because that’s what grants skills, and everyone needs skills. Not sure how to address that, but it feels like it could be a problem.

8. Speaking of problems, given the open-ended nature of traits, combined with the sheer number of traits, I feel many players will just forget them, or just pick one or two because they could just put those points back into attributes instead.

9. This is a super-minor nitpick, but it bugged me. You have the same weapon properties for the unarmed strike, brass knuckles, and melee claws. No way those weapons do the same amount of damage.

10. Also, did you intend to be able to apply the curved blade upgrade to a quarterstaff , Warhammer, or unarmed strike? I know common sense has a place here, but I feel like you put so much detail into other areas, and are clearly going for a rules heavy system, an oversight like this seems silly.

I’ll be honest; I probably wouldn’t run a game of this system in its present state. I’m not a big fan of rules heavy systems (D&D not-withstanding), and it seems like it would be a lot of work for one person, let alone a whole table, to get up to speed on.

Talakeal
2014-04-11, 02:07 PM
Alright, I did a brief read-through of the system, and here are some of my thouhgts (full disclosure, I did not read the entire book and skimmed some sections).


Awesome, my first real piece of feedback. Thank you for taking the time! Let me see if I can address your points:


1. As everyone has said, it's long. And I don't mean long in page count, long in the amount required to read to even start putting a character together. Forget the fluff, there's things missing like a simple skill table laying out every skill, which would make things much easier to understand. You have to read through a lot before you can finish putting your character together.


I was trying to keep page count down by omitting redundant information such as tables that simply repeat information from the text. In the final draft I will almost certainly have a lot of tables and summaries; thank you for pointing out that it is an issue.



2. Speaking of skills, it seems to me there are a lot of them. And not a lot of them in the good, well-rounded character way, but a lot of them in the ‘no one will ever use them’ kind of way. You fall a little bit into the 3.5 trap and have similar skills that could be combined. For example, I don’t see the point in separating out the Acrobatics and Athletics skills. They cover a lot of the same territory, and given the evade action of acrobatics, I don’t see many people making athletics one of their primary/secondary skills.


I kind of disagree with you on this.

Skills are how characters use their abilities and powers, so a lot of skills cover the ground that would normally be related to feats or class abilities. I don't think the skill list is nearly as bloated as 3.5, for example the Acrobatics skills in Heart of Darkness covers the same territory as Reflex Saves, Balance, Jump, and Tumble skills, as well as several feats and class abilities. Likewise athletics covers the Climb and Swim skills as well as the Run feat. I honestly can't think of a single RPG I have played that combines Acrobatics and Athletics, including 4E/ PF. Looking through the RPGs on my shelf 30 skills seems to be about the average.

That being said, acknowledge that not all skills are equal. Unless your character concept revolves around them, most skills will be relegated to secondary status. For example a lot of people will take acrobatics as a primary skill because of its defensive functions, but I can't see anyone taking athletics as a primary skill unless they are playing a specialized charger / mobile character or are playing a character whose character concept is an athlete of some sort. Maybe I should do more to point this out.



3. Character creation; it’s not very organized. You should move the section detailing the steps (page 169) before you lay out those steps; I was very confused the first time I read through how exactly I picked skills and attributes. Listing the steps before explaining in detail is always a good idea, especially here.


Yeah, to me it just looked better to have the summary at the end, but I definitely see where you are coming from and will almost certainly move the character creation steps to the front of the chapter in future versions, although probably not in its final form.



4. Magic; you need to have it condensed. You mention spell casting in the occult skill, then the enlightenment trait, then finally there’s a chapter on magic. I’d figure out a way to condense it down so the player is more easily able to figure out the magic system. Heck, I passed right by the occult skill the first time and didn’t think you could cast spells!


I don't want to burden the players with the magic rules right up front, the game is not designed to be very magic heavy, and it is almost an optional module for advanced players. Still, I acknowledge that a lot of players love magic, one of my alpha testers is obsessed with playing wizards, and magic is the most easily exploitable or potentially unbalancing system, so I have put a lot of work into it.

On the other hand, it seemed weird to not mention the occult skill or the enlightened trait in the same section as the other skills and traits, and I didn't want to repeat information in this version. In the future I will probably put all the spell-casting rules in Chapter Six and simply put a lot more signposts throughout chapters two and three pointing people there.



5. Speaking of casting spells, in the occult skill you mention there are fifteen different occult skills, but don’t actually lay them out. Are they occult skill (restoration) for example? If so you should spell that out.
.

Yes, there are. They are laid out in more detail on page 272. I will try and make that more clear in future revisions.



6. Many of the traits feel same-y and don’t offer significant changes to the character. I know they’re listed as minor for a reason, but I just feel like listing a character as Confident and giving him a plus 1 to leadership isn’t functionally different from just giving him a plus 1 to leadership.


The minor traits are mostly there to allow you to play against type. For example, to play an intelligent charismatic fighter or a strong wizard, and also to keep the math skills the same. For example, Confident and similar traits are there to balance out equipment options. A player who wants to get better at picking locks can simply take better lock picks, but a character who wants a similar bonus to leadership has no tool option and would be out in the cold without minor traits.



7. The skill system also, I feel, pushes people down the Fallout 3 path, i.e. everyone has a super-high intelligence because that’s what grants skills, and everyone needs skills. Not sure how to address that, but it feels like it could be a problem.


I actually have found the opposite to be true. The sagacious trait allows you to take additional skills, and it is cheaper to take that than to raise intelligence unless you are playing a craftsman / scholar archetype who has a lot of intelligence based skills. I have always been worried that power gamers will always go for an idiot savant type who has a very low intelligence and lots of sagacious and haven't thought of a good solution.



8. Speaking of problems, given the open-ended nature of traits, combined with the sheer number of traits, I feel many players will just forget them, or just pick one or two because they could just put those points back into attributes instead.


That's their choice, and if you are a new player that is probably the ideal way to play, just finding one or two that seem appropriate to the character they have in mind and going with it. There are a lot of traits that are very useful such as prodigy, legendary skill, specialty, and martial technique that almost all characters will benefit from, and experienced players will learn this over time.



9. This is a super-minor nitpick, but it bugged me. You have the same weapon properties for the unarmed strike, brass knuckles, and melee claws. No way those weapons do the same amount of damage.


Yes, sort of. They do have the same base damage and accuracy, but they have different properties. Using brass knuckles or melee claws sure would do more damage than a straight punch, but they also limit your mobility and make it harder to perform grabs, holds, throws, palm strikes, etc. and an unarmed strike can also represent a kick which could potentially have a lot more force behind it than a punch, even one aided by brass knuckles. The advantage of brass knuckles, however, is that you count as being armed with a weapon, which is a major disadvantage unless you are a trained martial artist, and allow you to apply all sorts of weapon upgrades which you can't to your bare hands. A high quality set of brass knuckles certainly does more damage than an unarmed strike, and you can choose to make them better in certain situations by playing with the armor penetration or other factors.
As for melee claws, I tried to keep the balance between blunt and edged weapons in regards to accuracy and damage. Melee claws are to brass knuckles as a sap is to a dagger, a short sword is to a club, a long sword is to a mace, etc. They base damage and accuracy are the same, but they react in different ways when striking objects or using the various combat maneuvers. For example, if you are trying to knock someone out brass knuckles are a better choice, if you are trying to cut off their arm it is melee claws all the way.



10. Also, did you intend to be able to apply the curved blade upgrade to a quarterstaff , Warhammer, or unarmed strike? I know common sense has a place here, but I feel like you put so much detail into other areas, and are clearly going for a rules heavy system, an oversight like this seems silly.

I cover this in the descriptions of those upgrades. Curved blade on a blunt weapon represents metal flanges and jagged blade represents adding spikes, while axe or pick represent having a "double headed" weapon with a different shaped head on each face.



I’ll be honest; I probably wouldn’t run a game of this system in its present state. I’m not a big fan of rules heavy systems (D&D not-withstanding), and it seems like it would be a lot of work for one person, let alone a whole table, to get up to speed on

Well, you have taken the time to look over and respond to it, which is still a big help, and I think you for it! That being said, I do hope to improve the game before release, hence the playtest version, and I don't believe it is any more dense than any other rules heavy system I have played such as Vampire, WHFRP, Exalted, Shadowrun, or GURPS, and they all managed to find an audience and make a profit over time, it is just a bit harder. I have managed to teach a number of people how to play the game without too much trouble, but RPGs are always a giant pain to learn if you don't have someone to teach you.

Thanks again for your interest! Its given me a lot to think about.

Z3ro
2014-04-11, 03:28 PM
Alright, I've done some more reading (I'm stuck at work with little else to do) and I've got some more comments!

1. Was reading more through the beastiary, and I'm not confident I understand how the entries work. In a given monster, would the DM build the monster as they chose, using the stat adjustments given? If that is the case, it seems like it could bog down play a good bit. I know you don't want to add more pages, but I always like the way D&D gave a stat block per monster, that way I could just pull it out as-is, or I could tweek it as needed. Not sure the best way to accomplish this, but it seems like it would be hard for a DM running a game on the fly.

2. Speaking of mosters, some of the stats seem inconsistent. The one that stood out to me was the Ettin; it's 14 feet tall and weights 3,500 pounds, but it's only as strong as a human. Heck, the lowly lizard person has a +1 strength and is only 6 feet, 225 pounds. These just seem weird.

3. Spells again. I've tried piecing the magic system together a few time, but there's still some things I don't get. Mainly, when you take an occult skill, can you cast all the spells in that category? If not, how do you pick which you can? And I'm sure you know this, but some of the spells seem significantly more powerful than other; this isn't an issue if you get all at the same time, I suppose.

4. Making artifacts: you mention there being rules for them, but I couldn't find them. Can you point to what page they're on?

5. When you mention skill scores, are those basically just the associated attribute, with minuses if they're not primary? I couldn't find something confirming or denying that. On the note of skill scores, this is just me, but I'd rather have the primary/secondary add to the score, rather than secondary/untrained subtract from it. Two reasons: first, it makes the math easier and faster, and two, it feels like you're giving the character a boost rather than a penalty. Also, you will probably have more untrained than trained skills, meaning you have more minuses than pluses on your character sheet.

That's all I have this time, maybe I'll find some more later!

Just to Browse
2014-04-11, 04:19 PM
I cannot find the section in the game where you list your resolution mechanic. The only hint I get is when you mention nat20s and nat1s. This is either a) A missing piece of high-level content, you should definitely edit your game before asking for testers OR b) A hidden piece of content, which is a sign that your organization needs serious help.

Overall, I am not excited. Things are hidden or poorly organized throughout (I could only find Character Creation with ctrl-f), skills and traits are not well-balanced, the number of fiddly stats is too damn high (initiative, dodge, and speed; encumbrance, pain threshold, and vitality; mana, destiny, and chakras), and there are just way too many words, both for flavor and for mechanics.

Talakeal
2014-04-11, 04:50 PM
I cannot find the section in the game where you list your resolution mechanic. The only hint I get is when you mention nat20s and nat1s. This is either a) A missing piece of high-level content, you should definitely edit your game before asking for testers OR b) A hidden piece of content, which is a sign that your organization needs serious help.

Overall, I am not excited. Things are hidden or poorly organized throughout (I could only find Character Creation with ctrl-f), skills and traits are not well-balanced, the number of fiddly stats is too damn high (initiative, dodge, and speed; encumbrance, pain threshold, and vitality; mana, destiny, and chakras), and there are just way too many words, both for flavor and for mechanics.


The base resolution mechanic is on page 111 of the full rules and on page 1 of the quick rules under the heading tests.

Again, it is a rules heavy game, but not imo unreasonably so. All editions of D&D have at least as many numbers and they are significantly less streamlined. The skills are unbalanced, but they don't need to be. They do different things, and aside from the directly offensive and defensive skills don't really benefit from redundancy. Everyone should be able to purchase both active and defensive skills for "combat" encounters where balance really matters and still have enough secondary skills left over for a few flavorful or support skills.

Metal working may be more useful than wood working, but a team that has both a metal worker and a wood worker will be better off than one who has two metal workers, and the wood working guy is probably not going to feel shafted because their skill is only needed 4 times a mission while the metal working guy was needed five times in a mission.





1. Was reading more through the beastiary, and I'm not confident I understand how the entries work. In a given monster, would the DM build the monster as they chose, using the stat adjustments given? If that is the case, it seems like it could bog down play a good bit. I know you don't want to add more pages, but I always like the way D&D gave a stat block per monster, that way I could just pull it out as-is, or I could tweek it as needed. Not sure the best way to accomplish this, but it seems like it would be hard for a DM running a game on the fly.


You have two options, you can either build them like a full player (which is very time consuming and I only do for recurring NPCs or if I want to test a build) or you can apply the modifiers to the NPC templates on page 549.



2. Speaking of monsters, some of the stats seem inconsistent. The one that stood out to me was the Ettin; it's 14 feet tall and weights 3,500 pounds, but it's only as strong as a human. Heck, the lowly lizard person has a +1 strength and is only 6 feet, 225 pounds. These just seem weird.


Size does not directly modify strength as the various secondary aspects related to strength scale at different levels. The rules for how to modify a creature based on its size category are found just before the bestiary proper on pages 320-321.



3. Spells again. I've tried piecing the magic system together a few time, but there's still some things I don't get. Mainly, when you take an occult skill, can you cast all the spells in that category? If not, how do you pick which you can? And I'm sure you know this, but some of the spells seem significantly more powerful than other; this isn't an issue if you get all at the same time, I suppose.


Yes, all mages know all spells, although they won't be able to cast the more powerful ones without getting a more powerful spell-book or lucking into it.

When you say some spells are more powerful than others, which spells are you thinking of? Obviously the lower difficulty spells are weaker than the higher difficulty ones, some spells have primarily RP uses, and some schools are better at certain effects than others, but generally two spells of the same difficulty that accomplish similar results should not be dramatically different in power.



4. Making artifacts: you mention there being rules for them, but I couldn't find them. Can you point to what page they're on?


The artifacts are at the end of the equipment section. The creation rules are on pages 227-228, and utilize a meta-magic effect Imbue found on page 526. It has never occurred to me before, but there is actually no reason to keep that in Chapter Nine, I could just consolidate them both to chapter five. Thanks!



5. When you mention skill scores, are those basically just the associated attribute, with minuses if they're not primary? I couldn't find something confirming or denying that. On the note of skill scores, this is just me, but I'd rather have the primary/secondary add to the score, rather than secondary/untrained subtract from it. Two reasons: first, it makes the math easier and faster, and two, it feels like you're giving the character a boost rather than a penalty. Also, you will probably have more untrained than trained skills, meaning you have more minuses than pluses on your character sheet.


Yes. There are also many traits and pieces of equipment that add to your scores in the various skills.

Keep in mind that the average attribute is five, and so the average person with no training will have no modifier in a given skill. You should only ever have a negative score if you are untrained in a skill that is keyed off of one of your "dump stats".

As for changing it from a bonus to a minus, I have tried that in the past, the problem is that I need to keep modifiers relatively small so that the d20 roll matters, and I like that an average person is just rolling a straight dice when attempting a task, but it is something to consider, I have found that people prefer bonuses to penalties.

Again, thank you very much for the feedback, it has been tremendously helpful!

2E Phoinex
2014-04-11, 06:25 PM
As a fellow New Mexican I feel almost obligated to give it at least a read through. I'm off work tomorrow and will be nursing a broken toe so I'll download it an start reading through it. I can probably put together a group that would be willing to play test it at some point as well.

haha I had the same reaction. The "wasteland" could use a bigger gaming presence in my opinion.

I'll try to get my group to run a play test once we get out of class for summer. It certainly is thick, and in its current form it doesn't feel really approachable. That doesn't mean it wont be worth it, but I'm not sure I can convince my friends to do that much homework before sitting down to game. Hopefully in a month or so we will be able to run some combats and let you know what we think. If things go well I might be able to get them to take a closer look at the setting.

Sadly, I forgot to save the few notes I took on my initial skim through, but I will say this: I frequently felt that I was reading a lot in order to learn a little. I have no doubt that this is a really cool product at your table, and I for one am impressed by what you've created, but right now this would be very hard to sell my players on. When I get a chance to read in greater detail I'll try to offer something constructive instead of just a vague criticism.

Good luck and thanks for sharing this.

Talakeal
2014-04-12, 04:58 PM
haha I had the same reaction. The "wasteland" could use a bigger gaming presence in my opinion.

I'll try to get my group to run a play test once we get out of class for summer. It certainly is thick, and in its current form it doesn't feel really approachable. That doesn't mean it wont be worth it, but I'm not sure I can convince my friends to do that much homework before sitting down to game. Hopefully in a month or so we will be able to run some combats and let you know what we think. If things go well I might be able to get them to take a closer look at the setting.

Sadly, I forgot to save the few notes I took on my initial skim through, but I will say this: I frequently felt that I was reading a lot in order to learn a little. I have no doubt that this is a really cool product at your table, and I for one am impressed by what you've created, but right now this would be very hard to sell my players on. When I get a chance to read in greater detail I'll try to offer something constructive instead of just a vague criticism.

Good luck and thanks for sharing this.

I'm not sure what part of NM you are in, but as I said earlier I am more than happy to run demo games or teach people the rules in person.

I fully admit that it is fairly thick and unapproachable, but I don't see it as unreasonably so compared to the other games which I have played, and trying to make a more casually accessible game never really occurred to me until recently, at which point most of the writing was already done. Still, this thread has already given me some great ideas into how I can incorporate that into futures versions. Thanks again for your help and your interest!

neonchameleon
2014-04-12, 09:33 PM
It is a story heavy game, if that isn't for you than it isn't for you.

If "Story heavy" means "the author's story" then it isn't. I've always been more interested in what happens at the table.


Also, there is nothing stopping you from skipping the fluff if you just want the crunch. I would suggest only using chapters two, three, four, and the first half of five if you just want to look at the basic mechanics.

The crunch makes a textbook mistake so far as I can tell. If I've understood everything (and correct me if I haven't), it fails the tightrope walker test. (So do almost all d20 systems including D&D Next). Tightrope walking is DC 15 so far as I can tell. A superb acrobat is going to have a stat of 10 and be trained - so they succeed at tightrope walking on a 5 or higher - or have a 20% chance to fall. The Cirque du Soleil is impossible, as is slackline yoga or even a travelling circus using tightropes. On the other hand an average schlub is going to have a stat of 5 and take a 5 point penalty for being untrained - giving them a 1 in 4 chance of walking a tightrope. (You can do this with a lot of skills in a lot of systems, but tightropes are clearest - but both GURPS and Fate avoid the problems here).


That being said, The word count is no higher than pathfinder or gurps, and the percentage of that word count dedicated to storyline is no higher than your average white wolf game. Grabbing both mage and exalted off of my shelf they don't get to the rules until 80 or 90 pages in.

And here I'm going to be harsh. White Wolf games are at least interesting to read. They start with the fiction being the experience of the characters - often written in the second person. As for Heart of Darkness, the very first line of the introduction reads "The old empire is no more". The first line of the setting starts in the dreamtime in prehistory. Then goes through the Age of the Titans. Then the Legend of Pandora. Then The Age of Kings. Then The Age of Queens. Then The Age of Knights. Then The Age of Warlords. And only reaches the Age of Men (i.e. the current age) on page 23. You put your most important stuff first when writing - you need to wade through a dozen pages of backstory to even reach the present. And the backstory is presented as as it happened rather than as it is seen from the now. It is only the Age of Men that actually lets you do anything - White Wolf books at least write about things to be interacted with before they reach character creation.

Talakeal
2014-04-12, 11:10 PM
If "Story heavy" means "the author's story" then it isn't. I've always been more interested in what happens at the table.



The crunch makes a textbook mistake so far as I can tell. If I've understood everything (and correct me if I haven't), it fails the tightrope walker test. (So do almost all d20 systems including D&D Next). Tightrope walking is DC 15 so far as I can tell. A superb acrobat is going to have a stat of 10 and be trained - so they succeed at tightrope walking on a 5 or higher - or have a 20% chance to fall. The Cirque du Soleil is impossible, as is slackline yoga or even a travelling circus using tightropes. On the other hand an average schlub is going to have a stat of 5 and take a 5 point penalty for being untrained - giving them a 1 in 4 chance of walking a tightrope. (You can do this with a lot of skills in a lot of systems, but tightropes are clearest - but both GURPS and Fate avoid the problems here).



And here I'm going to be harsh. White Wolf games are at least interesting to read. They start with the fiction being the experience of the characters - often written in the second person. As for Heart of Darkness, the very first line of the introduction reads "The old empire is no more". The first line of the setting starts in the dreamtime in prehistory. Then goes through the Age of the Titans. Then the Legend of Pandora. Then The Age of Kings. Then The Age of Queens. Then The Age of Knights. Then The Age of Warlords. And only reaches the Age of Men (i.e. the current age) on page 23. You put your most important stuff first when writing - you need to wade through a dozen pages of backstory to even reach the present. And the backstory is presented as as it happened rather than as it is seen from the now. It is only the Age of Men that actually lets you do anything - White Wolf books at least write about things to be interacted with before they reach character creation.


Be harsh all you want, all feedback is useful feedback and I appreciate you took the time to look at it and type out a response.

As for the story, I both agree and disagree with you.

Admittedly I haven't bought many White Wolf books recently, so they might have changed, but I haven't seen any of these second person prose pieces. I am sure they exist, but none of the books I have on my shelf atm have them in the first chapter. Most have a standard third person story or a slightly less dry exposition dump. I agree that history is probably not the best way to get the players on board, but it is only 14 pages long (and about a quarter of that is blank spaces awaiting finalized art of formatting) and is easily skippable. The geography section that follows which is the bulk of the chapter is LOADED with mysteries and adventure hooks, I don't think I have a single entry without something that needs PC or GM resolution. But you are right, going by White Wolf they put much more emphasis on organizations than I do and much less on history, although exalted seems to be about 50/50 (admittedly this is probably because it is the only one not set in the "real world").

I personally like reading the "author's story", a lot of people don't. I have one guy in my group who is a hard core power gamer and has not only never read a word of the fluff text, he doesn't even remember his own characters back story more often than not, but he still had plenty of fun playing the game every week and I never forced it on him. Myself, I have never played a single game of Exalted, but I read every single one of the 1E books because I enjoy reading the background information. I personally went with story heavy because it appeals to me and it is easier to have it and skip it than it is to need a campaign setting and not have one without shelling out an extra 50 bucks.

I really did try and give players plenty of insertion points. Even the characters in the history section are blank slate enough that I have had PCs play as one of the named characters and still more or less make their character from scratch, and the characters in the Appendix are more presented as bad guys for the PCs to take out than as Forgotten Realms style "Look at me I am so awesome! I could solve everything but choose not to!"

Also, the starting line "The Old Empire is no more" is not an exclamation that the world was so awesome in the past. It is letting the players know that the world is there's to do with as they want and it is their responsibility to shape the future of the world for good or for ill.

As for the tightrope thing... let me pull out the book.

You are correct the base difficulty is fifteen.

Your average acrobat is going to have a 6 dexterity. If he is a professional tightrope walker he is going to have a specialty in balance, which gives him a +2. Then he is likely going to have either a balance pole or the agile trait, which gives him a further +1, for a total of +1, meaning he succeeds on a 7+. However, this assumed he is moving at combat speed, which is a slow jog. If he is actually walking the difficulty is reduced to 10, which means he succeeds on anything but a natural one.

Furthermore, if he is doing a routine which he has practiced many times under controlled conditions, I would recommend the Game Master give him a small narrative bonus. With this bonus, or if he has a good (7+) dexterity, a single rank in prodigy, a masterwork balance pole, or a second rank in the agile trait he will succeed automatically except in cases of a natural 1 invoking bad fortune; which the Game Master is free to ignore if the situation does not have dramatic potential. Furthermore, even if they do fail they don't actually fall to their death, they merely fall prone on the rope and have to pull themselves up again.