Console Smash Brothers 4 General [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Zevox

2014-04-08, 10:54 PM

Since this thread is still around and being used to discuss the games now that the 3DS version is out, I'll be keeping a list of posters' friend codes in this post.

GitP User NameNintendo Network NameFriend Code
colbatstarfireCobalt0060-9672-3262
DaOldeWolfQuickWolf3110-4815-6903
HerpestidaeJancro5472-8792-6103
JermellJermell3368-1394-9969
LheticusJBGamer4511-0721-0293
PinnaclePat3067-5293-0357
RodinJeff4468-1490-9338
VaynorKyras2122-6728-5947
Vwulf DeMarcusVwulf3153-5011-9261
Yana?2294-3873-9757
ZevoxZevox1220-6428-7653

And for the sake of it, the original text of this post:
So, for anyone who wasn't aware, Nintendo today devoted an entire Nintendo Direct (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUWnQu2Grs) to giving out info about the upcoming Smash Bros games on the Wii U and 3DS. And there was actually some pretty interesting stuff that came of it.

Perhaps the biggest is the release windows for the two games, which are actually quite far apart. The 3DS version will release this summer, while the Wii U version is planned for release in the winter - though they didn't mention whether those were for a worldwide release, or just Japan. They didn't really give any reason for the disparity between the release dates, although they reiterated that the roster will be the same in both games, so that means we'll know the full roster well before the Wii U version releases. It actually seems like a very strange choice to me, since you'd think if anything they'd want to release the Wii U version first, to help with the Wii U's sales. This instead seems to greatly increase the chance of the 3DS version hurting the Wii U version's sales.

There were also character reveals. Mostly veterans, but with some surprises even there. Yoshi will surprise no one save in that he somehow hadn't already been revealed, apparently because he'll be standing more upright now, which seems minor to me personally, but eh. We also had Zero Suit Samus, Sheik, and Charizard confirmed, along with the surprise that none of them will be transformations anymore (which seems to imply that Pokémon Trainer is gone, quite possibly along with Squirtle and Ivysaur). Sheik and Zelda gained new down specials to accommodate this, and Sheik apparently replaced her side special as well. Zero Suit Samus also got a new pair of rocket boots (high-heeled ones, oddly) that has resulted in her getting some new moves, too. Presumably Charizard must have gotten a new down special too, if he's no longer part of the Trainer character, but he was only shown in a trailer at the end, so no details there.

And there was one newcomer revealed: a Pokémon called Greninja (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgmC56ndgeg). I'm sure most of you know more about him than I, since I haven't played Pokémon in quite some time, but for anyone who doesn't he seems to be some kind of frog ninja with water-based powers. I will say he looks like he may be fun to play though, so that's nice. With him, Charizard, Pikachu, and Lucario all confirmed though, I wonder if that might be all the playable Pokémon at this point, which could mean Jigglypuff was cut and/or Mewtwo won't be returning the way some had hoped.

There was also information about some game modes. Online play is a noteworthy one. Sadly, it looks like the distinction between playing With Friends and playing With Anyone that Brawl had remains - you only get complete control of the game settings in With Friends mode. That right there is a huge disappointment to me personally. They did add something to the With Anyone section though, separating it into "For Fun," which will play like Brawl's With Anyone mode did, and "For Glory," which is basically a ranked mode that disables items and makes the stage always Final Destination (and apparently makes 1v1s "possible," though what that means was not clarified). The last of which makes me think the devs take that dumb meme entirely too seriously personally, but I suppose it is a slight step up from Brawl. Definitely a far cry from what I was hoping for, though. Especially if we're still stuck with only timed matches in With Anyone, which was not specified but seems implied.

They also detailed a new 3DS-only mode, "Smash Run," where you basically start out spending five minutes in a big, adventure-mode-style maze, collecting power-ups and items, then duke it out in a match with your powered-up characters. Not sure about that one myself, especially since five minutes actually sounds like a long time to be running around a maze gathering power-ups (most matches don't last that long), but eh, I'm sure some people will enjoy it.

There were also details about character moves, a bunch of stages and items shown off, and all that kind of minor stuff, but the above was the important parts.

TL;DR version:
- 3DS version releases in summer this year, Wii U version in the winter.
- Veteran characters: Yoshi, Zero Suit Samus, Sheik, Charizard.
- Newcomer: Greninja.
- Characters no longer transform mid-match.
- Several characters have new moves, including Zero Suit Samus and Sheik.
- Online play is still divided into "With Friends" and "With Anyone," as in Brawl.
- "With Anyone" online play is further divided into "For Fun," which is as in Brawl, and "For Glory," which disables items and makes the stage always Final Destination.
- New mode for 3DS version only: "Smash Run," where you explore a maze to find power-ups before a fight.

Mando Knight

2014-04-09, 12:06 AM

And there was one newcomer revealed: a Pokémon called Geninja (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgmC56ndgeg). I'm sure most of you know more about him than I, since I haven't played Pokémon in quite some time, but for anyone who doesn't he seems to be some kind of frog ninja with water-based powers. I will say he looks like he may be fun to play though, so that's nice. With him, Charizard, Pikachu, and Lucario all confirmed though, I wonder if that might be all the playable Pokémon at this point, which could mean Jigglypuff was cut and/or Mewtwo won't be returning the way some had hoped.

Greninja (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Greninja) is the fully-evolved form of the Water-type starter for the 6th Generation Pokémon games (X/Y). And yes, it is a frog-ninja.

Lucario and Charizard apparently had their Final Smashes switched to Mega Evolution, though I wonder if only MegaZard X will be available, or if you'll be able to choose between Mega-X and Mega-Y...

Also, Mega Man's Final Smash is 4 of the alternate Mega Men (.EXE, X, Volnutt, and Star Force) join the original for some Charged Buster beam-spam.

Geno9999

2014-04-09, 12:13 AM

FINAL DESTINATION MODE ENGAGE!!!

Also, I'm sort of mixed on the whole splitting up the characters that used to have alternative forms (Pokemon Trainer to just Charizard, Shiek and Zelda, Zero Suit and Power Suit Samus.) On one hand, it's a good thing since most people usually play as Shiek or Zero Suit when they have the chance, and it opens them up to have more moves. On the other, no Squirtle.

But I got Greninja, so I guess this is for the best.

Zevox

2014-04-09, 12:48 AM

Also, Mega Man's Final Smash is 4 of the alternate Mega Men (.EXE, X, Volnutt, and Star Force) join the original for some Charged Buster beam-spam.
Yeah, that is pretty awesome. Nintendo is really doing everything right with Mega Man in this one. That stage is a pretty nice nod, too.

FINAL DESTINATION MODE ENGAGE!!!
The really ironic thing is that Final Destination in Brawl isn't even always considered a neutral stage in tournaments, and is sometimes relegated to counterpick status. Hell, if Evo last year is anything to go by, it's not even the most commonly used neutral stage in Melee. That damn meme is the only reason I can think of for that particular decision.

If they had to pick just one stage for such a mode, Battlefield actually probably would've been the better one.

Also, I'm sort of mixed on the whole splitting up the characters that used to have alternative forms (Pokemon Trainer to just Charizard, Shiek and Zelda, Zero Suit and Power Suit Samus.) On one hand, it's a good thing since most people usually play as Shiek or Zero Suit when they have the chance, and it opens them up to have more moves. On the other, no Squirtle.
Eh, I'm not bothered by it. I've never been able to play Zelda or Sheik, never picked up Pokémon Trainer, and while I played Zero Suit Samus I prefer not to use items, so I didn't really have her transform on me anyway.

Dumbledore lives

2014-04-09, 01:45 AM

Smash Run is Kirby's Air Ride but Smash Bros oh my god this is everything I ever wanted but didn't know I did. Everything else looks great, but the sheer concept of that is so great. I spent so much time in Air Ride, I can't wait to play this.

OracleofWuffing

2014-04-09, 01:49 AM

They also detailed a new 3DS-only mode, "Smash Run," where you basically start out spending five minutes in a big, adventure-mode-style maze, collecting power-ups and items, then duke it out in a match with your powered-up characters. Not sure about that one myself, especially since five minutes actually sounds like a long time to be running around a maze gathering power-ups (most matches don't last that long), but eh, I'm sure some people will enjoy it.
That sounds like a recycling of Kirby Air Ride's City Trial. Which means that five minutes is both simultaneously plenty of time and nowhere near enough. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Gee, Ninja'd in a thread that announces that Greninja is a newcomer. That's a new one.

:smallannoyed: Still waiting on Meta Knight, though. I don't care if he's nerfed, I liked him.

ObadiahtheSlim

2014-04-09, 06:53 AM

No items, Fox only, Final Destination.

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/9831/o6wx.jpg

Sith_Happens

2014-04-09, 07:15 AM

(high-heeled ones, oddly)

That would be Team Ninja's fault.:smallannoyed:

which could mean Jigglypuff was cut and/or Mewtwo won't be returning the way some had hoped.

Mark my words, much blood will be shed if either of these things come to pass.

The really ironic thing is that Final Destination in Brawl isn't even always considered a neutral stage in tournaments, and is sometimes relegated to counterpick status. Hell, if Evo last year is anything to go by, it's not even the most commonly used neutral stage in Melee. That damn meme is the only reason I can think of for that particular decision.

Yeah, the only people who think Final Destination is a balanced stage are the ones who mistake "bland" for "balanced." I mean gee, it's not like a large-ish stage with no platforms would somehow favor characters that can fight at range, amiright?

If they had to pick just one stage for such a mode, Battlefield actually probably would've been the better one.

Battlefield (at least the Brawl version), on the other hand, is too small and makes you jump too much to move around. IMO, Smashville is actually more or less the perfect middle ground between the two.

DigoDragon

2014-04-09, 07:53 AM

This instead seems to greatly increase the chance of the 3DS version hurting the Wii U version's sales.

Maybe. I'm thinking that the Wii-U version has more options and toys (Maybe the return of a stage builder?) to play with so maybe they're still polishing that stuff before release. Just a theory.

Also, Mega Man's Final Smash is 4 of the alternate Mega Men (.EXE, X, Volnutt, and Star Force) join the original for some Charged Buster beam-spam.

Megaman joining the roster was what really got me interested in Smash4. :smallbiggrin:
His final is just beautiful and shiny.

Infernally Clay

2014-04-09, 08:37 AM

Zero Suit Samus all the way! I love the rocket boots.

Tectonic Robot

2014-04-09, 08:55 AM

Still no Toon Ganondorf announcement...

Mando Knight

2014-04-09, 10:42 AM

That would be Team Ninja's fault.:smallannoyed:

The high heels on ZSS's new Smash model have nothing to do with her Other M model. In fact, the jet boots look like they're attachments, with the underlying boots of the Zero Suit being more similar to her Brawl appearance.

The split will also mean that ZSS's Final Smash won't be terrible anymore (I could get kills with her Brawl one, but it's definitely weaker than most other Final Smashes, not including the first time you play Pikachu or DK).

Sylthia

2014-04-09, 11:58 AM

Maybe. I'm thinking that the Wii-U version has more options and toys (Maybe the return of a stage builder?) to play with so maybe they're still polishing that stuff before release.

Is there no stage builder in the 3DS version? That's a deal breaker for me. I spent more time on custom stages than in game ones in Brawl.

The Dark Fiddler

2014-04-09, 01:21 PM

Is there no stage builder in the 3DS version? That's a deal breaker for me. I spent more time on custom stages than in game ones in Brawl.

There was no mention either way about the stage builder, sadly.

Zevox

2014-04-09, 03:05 PM

That sounds like a recycling of Kirby Air Ride's City Trial. Which means that five minutes is both simultaneously plenty of time and nowhere near enough. :smallbiggrin:
That is precisely what it is based on - Sakurai said as much in the Direct.

:smallannoyed: Still waiting on Meta Knight, though. I don't care if he's nerfed, I liked him.
I'll be very surprised if he doesn't return.

No items, Fox only, Final Destination.
Yeah, that's the dumb meme I've been referring to. Only the first part actually accurately reflects how competitive smash is played, but it's become so well-known that many people seem to base their whole idea about competitive smash works around it. Including, it would very sadly appear, the game devs.

Mark my words, much blood will be shed if either of these things come to pass.
I'd expect at least one at this point. Personally, I'd be fine with Jigglypuff being gone, as I never liked her, but it's still probably more likely than not that she's back. I was sort of hoping for Mewtwo's return. Won't be a big deal to me if he doesn't, as I didn't think the odds were great anyway, but a slight disappointment.

Yeah, the only people who think Final Destination is a balanced stage are the ones who mistake "bland" for "balanced." I mean gee, it's not like a large-ish stage with no platforms would somehow favor characters that can fight at range, amiright?
I'm pretty sure that's not the reason it's sometimes relegated to counterpick status in Brawl though - I thought I heard it was because the edges of the stage were odd in such a way that it made it unusually harder for some characters to recover. It slightly favoring projectile characters was true in Melee too, after all, but it was always considered neutral there.

Battlefield (at least the Brawl version), on the other hand, is too small and makes you jump too much to move around. IMO, Smashville is actually more or less the perfect middle ground between the two.
I always liked Smashville myself as well. I think the difference between Battlefield and it is pretty minor though, to the point where comparing how "neutral" they are relative to each other is largely splitting hairs. Plus Smashville has not been announced as returning in 4, while there is a version of Battlefield in it.

Maybe. I'm thinking that the Wii-U version has more options and toys (Maybe the return of a stage builder?) to play with so maybe they're still polishing that stuff before release. Just a theory.
Possible I suppose. It does seem that the only thing they're guaranteeing will be the same between the two versions is the roster - they've emphasized that most stages are going to differ, and now announced a 3DS-only mode. Presumably there will be more of that to come.

Still no Toon Ganondorf announcement...
I would not hold my breath for that if I were you.

Is there no stage builder in the 3DS version? That's a deal breaker for me. I spent more time on custom stages than in game ones in Brawl.
Nothing has been said about a stage builder for either version. It may not be back at all for all we know.

Personally, I hope it returns, but is improved. I always found the stages made in it felt awkward compared to the real ones myself, which I think is part visuals (there was no way to make a stage builder stage look natural, like it was actually something from a game), part the size of the blocks they gave you to build with. Could be something I'd really like if it were tweaked a little, but I wound up barely using Brawl's.

Hiro Protagonest

2014-04-09, 03:40 PM

Still no Toon Ganondorf announcement...

I want Tetra dammit!

Sith_Happens

2014-04-09, 03:42 PM

I'm pretty sure that's not the reason it's sometimes relegated to counterpick status in Brawl though - I thought I heard it was because the edges of the stage were odd in such a way that it made it unusually harder for some characters to recover.

Oh yeah, that too. Wolf is by far one of the worst victims of that, as well as being one of my primaries.:smallsigh:

Sylthia

2014-04-09, 05:52 PM

Nothing has been said about a stage builder for either version. It may not be back at all for all we know.

Personally, I hope it returns, but is improved. I always found the stages made in it felt awkward compared to the real ones myself, which I think is part visuals (there was no way to make a stage builder stage look natural, like it was actually something from a game), part the size of the blocks they gave you to build with. Could be something I'd really like if it were tweaked a little, but I wound up barely using Brawl's.

The stage builder had limited options, but you'd think in the six years it's been since Brawl came out, there'd be time to better it. It would also be a nice thing to share over wifi on the 3DS.

DigoDragon

2014-04-10, 07:29 AM

Personally, I hope it returns, but is improved. I always found the stages made in it felt awkward compared to the real ones myself, which I think is part visuals (there was no way to make a stage builder stage look natural, like it was actually something from a game), part the size of the blocks they gave you to build with. Could be something I'd really like if it were tweaked a little, but I wound up barely using Brawl's.

I used Stage Builder a lot and have a few stages that actually work very well for playing on. Interactive things like that is what makes games last in replay for me. I've been wanting a track builder in Mario Kart for years. :smallsmile:

Laudandus

2014-04-10, 12:09 PM

Final Destination is considered neutral in Melee but there is some controversy over that, since it unreasonably favors some characters in some matchups (Marth, in particular, because it's very hard to get back down once he gets you up in the air without platforms, but Ice Climbers and anyone else who don't like to use platforms for movement like the stage as well). Every other legal melee stage is heavily platformed.

I don't know anything about competitive Brawl so I can't speak to that, but from a Melee perspective Final Destination is not the "most competitive" stage - that would be Battlefield.

Nerocite

2014-04-11, 05:34 PM

I just want a Custom Robo rep. No sign of Ray in the assist trophy reel, so I have hope.

Fargazer

2014-04-11, 06:17 PM

Zevox

2014-04-11, 10:12 PM

After watching the video, I'm really curious about those rumors that went around about Palutena possibly being a player character. I think it was pretty obvious they were trying to make fun of the fanbase with the trophy pan that turned out to be pseudo-Palutena, but also notice Pit's final smash was changed to no longer involved her like it did in Brawl. I think it could go either way.
Those "rumors" were purportedly-leaked images, which to my knowledge have not been proven faked, so it actually seems likely. And I really hope so, because after Mega Man she was my most wanted character going into this (because I liked her that much in Uprising). And she's pretty much the only new character I want who has a realistic chance to be playable.

(Others would've been Lyn from Fire Emblem, Midna from Zelda, Isaac from Golden Sun, and Krystal from Star Fox. The former two we saw as ATs in the Direct, and really I think missed their only chance at playability with Brawl anyway. Isaac I don't think has a chance because Golden Sun is too minor of a series for Nintendo. And Star Fox is basically a dead franchise at this point, so I think we'll be lucky just to get all three of its veterans, much less a newcomer.)

The Dark Fiddler

2014-04-12, 07:37 AM

Fargazer

2014-04-12, 11:39 AM

The logic about not being in a final smash anymore is the same reason people are starting to think that a Waddle Dee might be added as a character.

Except that in one case it's "adds a bit more substance to an already (fairly) plausible rumor" and in the other case it's more of "the only piece of information that could suggest an unlikely possibility."

And Star Fox is basically a dead franchise at this point, so I think we'll be lucky just to get all three of its veterans, much less a newcomer.)

Well, Kid Icarus WAS a dead franchise when he made his appearance in Brawl. Even so, I'd be surprised if Star Fox's roster didn't get cut down.

Zevox

2014-04-12, 07:44 PM

Well, Kid Icarus WAS a dead franchise when he made his appearance in Brawl. Even so, I'd be surprised if Star Fox's roster didn't get cut down.
Kid Icarus was a retro franchise, which the devs seem to have a fondness for throwing into the games for fun (Ice Climbers, Game & Watch, ROB, etc). It also wouldn't surprise me if plans were already in the works at the time to revive it - Sakurai was the director and writer of Uprising, after all. Star Fox just seems to have been abandoned after Assault and Command's disappointing performances (the remake of 64 aside, but remaking the most popular game in the series to help sell a new handheld is hardly a sign of life for the series).

Rakaydos

2014-04-12, 08:26 PM

Kid Icarus was a retro franchise, which the devs seem to have a fondness for throwing into the games for fun (Ice Climbers, Game & Watch, ROB, etc). It also wouldn't surprise me if plans were already in the works at the time to revive it - Sakurai was the director and writer of Uprising, after all. Star Fox just seems to have been abandoned after Assault and Command's disappointing performances (the remake of 64 aside, but remaking the most popular game in the series to help sell a new handheld is hardly a sign of life for the series).

I'm HOPING a new Metroid or Starfox will be announced by Retro Studios next E3, now that they've got a feel for high definition graphics on DKC:TF.

Zevox

2014-04-12, 08:37 PM

I'm HOPING a new Metroid or Starfox will be announced by Retro Studios next E3, now that they've got a feel for high definition graphics on DKC:TF.
That would be nice, but I'm not getting my hopes up for it. Metroid we might yet see something out of Nintendo themselves for though - its last game is still recent enough that it may not have been abandoned. Star Fox is past the point where that could be the case though.

PhantomFox

2014-04-12, 08:51 PM

Well, there was that rumor that Retro's "Secret Project" was a StarFox/Metroid crossover, but I don't think that turned out to be anything.

Loreweaver15

2014-04-12, 09:51 PM

Rakaydos

2014-04-12, 10:58 PM

Honestly, I'm just glad that Nintendo has eased up off of the tourney crowd; they introduced pratfalls in Brawl because they were REALLY MAD that people weren't playing Melee the way it was intended.

Hopefully, Metaknight will be nerfed, Ganontruck will be buffed, and the game will be as fun as Brawl without being as boringly imbalanced as Melee.

Hey now, Melee was actually pretty balanced for a fighting game. Sure, you had 3-4 characters bouncing round top tier, and 5 or 6 more in the tier right below them, but the balance was close enough that matchups and mtchup familiarity were more important that the tier list in general. And being a Mewtwo main, who was fighting with pichu for the bottom of the tier list until well after brawl came out, the tier list felt nothing like the tier list in brawl, with "Sakurai's metaknight tier" followed by "Kojima's Snake tier" and then the rest of the cast.

Loreweaver15

2014-04-12, 11:02 PM

Hey now, Melee was actually pretty balanced for a fighting game. Sure, you had 3-4 characters bouncing round top tier, and 5 or 6 more in the tier right below them, but the balance was close enough that matchups and mtchup familiarity were more important that the tier list in general. And being a Mewtwo main, who was fighting with pichu for the bottom of the tier list until well after brawl came out, the tier list felt nothing like the tier list in brawl, with "Sakurai's metaknight tier" followed by "Kojima's Snake tier" and then the rest of the cast.

The only game I've seen with a narrower competitively played slice of their tier list than Melee is MvC2; Melee isn't QUITE as bad as "four gods plus Psylocke and Captain Commando", but it's close. Once Metaknight was banned, Brawl opened up WIDE.

Zevox

2014-04-12, 11:07 PM

The only game I've seen with a narrower competitively played slice of their tier list than Melee is MvC2; Melee isn't QUITE as bad as "four gods plus Psylocke and Captain Commando", but it's close.
Hey now, be fair, Cyclops is in there too. And Strider and Doctor Doom, if only because of Clockw0rk.

Pie Guy

2014-04-14, 01:20 PM

Laudandus

2014-04-14, 02:34 PM

Honestly though once you reach a somewhat high level of play, it is much easier to succeed with Fox/Falco than with anyone below them, and past that Sheik/Marth/Puff/Peach are much easier than the tier below that (Falcon/IC's/Luigi/Doc/Samus/Pikachu). It's not all -that- bad, but it is clearly worse than most intentionally balanced fighters.

Zevox

2014-04-14, 07:55 PM

Actually, the current melee tier list has (iirc) eight characters in S tier, meaning they are competitively viable and likely to do well in tournaments, and another 7 in A tier, meaning they are able to do well in tourneys if someone really good is playing. Come to think of it, I haven't seen a fox win a major in a while, but I might just not be paying attention.
I don't follow Melee tournaments in general, but I know that a Fox player won Evo last year.

Also, looking it up now, the current melee tier list is eight in S and six in A. So yeah, a touch over half the cast. And I know one of the A-tier characters, Doctor Mario, was among the top 8 from last year's Evo. Six of the S-tiers were represented as well (only duplicate being two Fox players, IIRC).

Also, I'm somewhat surprised to see that in the current Brawl list, Snake has fallen to sixth place. I haven't payed attention to it practically since the game came out, but at the time everyone was convinced he was a completely clear second-best, almost as dominant as Meta Knight. How things change.

Pie Guy

2014-04-14, 10:50 PM

Ooh, my mistake. For some reason I thought Armada (Peach) won evo. :smallredface:

Then again, Mango is arguably the best player in the game either way, so...

Tectonic Robot

2014-04-15, 02:37 PM

I'm really excited for Little Mac, myself.

Zevox

2014-04-15, 03:56 PM

I'm really excited for Little Mac, myself.
I doubt I'll end up playing him much myself. Though I guess you never know - I have always wound up maining someone I'd never have expected in Smash. Captain Falcon in 64, Marth in Melee, and Lucas in Brawl. I'd never even heard of Cap or Marth before seeing them in Smash, and Lucas I'd only heard of before Brawl because of the internet speculating about him being in it.

I'm really looking forward to playing Mega Man, though. They are doing so much right with him. It was a stroke of genius to make his neutral ground, forward tilt, and neutral air moves all his mega buster, so you can literally play him just like he plays in his own games, and every one of his other moves being an actual weapon or move from his games is just that much better.

TamerBill

2014-04-15, 04:45 PM

The really ironic thing is that Final Destination in Brawl isn't even always considered a neutral stage in tournaments, and is sometimes relegated to counterpick status. Hell, if Evo last year is anything to go by, it's not even the most commonly used neutral stage in Melee. That damn meme is the only reason I can think of for that particular decision.

They're basing their decisions off the Japanese metagame, where Final Destination is apparently the go-to stage for competitive Brawl.

Loreweaver15

2014-04-15, 05:44 PM

I'll probably be sticking with Kirby and Ganontruck myself, but I'll try Sonic again to see how his alterations place him.

Tectonic Robot

2014-04-15, 06:16 PM

They're basing their decisions off the Japanese metagame, where Final Destination is apparently the go-to stage for competitive Brawl.

How do they figure that?

I'll probably be sticking with Kirby and Ganontruck myself, but I'll try Sonic again to see how his alterations place him.

Still hoping for Toon Ganondorf...

Math_Mage

2014-04-15, 06:18 PM

Actually, the current melee tier list has (iirc) eight characters in S tier, meaning they are competitively viable and likely to do well in tournaments, and another 7 in A tier, meaning they are able to do well in tourneys if someone really good is playing. Come to think of it, I haven't seen a fox win a major in a while, but I might just not be paying attention.
When it comes to majors, the tier list is less important than the Four (and a half) Kings: Mango, DrPP, M2K, Hungrybox, and the now-retired Armada. Since only Mango really mains Fox (M2K has one in his pocket, and so did Armada), if anyone else wins you won't see Fox win--but Mango has won majors recently. MIOM did an (admittedly region-biased) player ranking; between #10 and #60 there are 18 Fox mains, just under 40% of that range. (For comparison, in that set there are 6 Sheiks, 5 Peaches, 5 Falcos, and 4 Falcons--and I'm not accounting for players that main multiple characters, but it looks like the only character that would really benefit is Marth.) Overall, it's pretty hard to describe Fox as anything but ubiquitous in Melee.

The Dark Fiddler

2014-04-15, 07:47 PM

I'm really looking forward to playing Mega Man, though. They are doing so much right with him. It was a stroke of genius to make his neutral ground, forward tilt, and neutral air moves all his mega buster, so you can literally play him just like he plays in his own games, and every one of his other moves being an actual weapon or move from his games is just that much better.

I'm convinced that the custom movesets got put in so Mega Man could use weapons from different bosses.

Zevox

2014-04-15, 07:56 PM

I'll probably be sticking with Kirby and Ganontruck myself, but I'll try Sonic again to see how his alterations place him.
Yeah, I'm hoping to see Sonic get better too. I really wanted to play him in Brawl, but in practice I found it a struggle. I think my biggest issue was his lack of killing power - only his f-smash and bair killed at any reasonable percentage, and even those weren't great by any means.

I'm convinced that the custom movesets got put in so Mega Man could use weapons from different bosses.
I hope so, that would be awesome. :smallbiggrin:

TheSummoner

2014-04-16, 07:11 PM

Old news, but Megaman and Little Mac being in Smash Bros 4 is amazing. I am a bit disappointed by the lack of King K. Rool, Dixie Kong, and (I know this one is unlikely, but) Waluigi though.

Question to someone who knows more about Pokemon than me though... What's so special about Greninja? As far as I'm aware, hes just the final evolution of one of the starters... I suppose you could say the same for Charizard, but if nothing else he's always been fairly iconic and probably benefits from a bit of grandfathering in after Brawl.

Mando Knight

2014-04-16, 07:18 PM

That's about it, really. That, and Sakurai probably really liked the design.

Also, every Smash has had a newcomer from the then-current Pokémon generation, and thinking through the Gen VI 'mons, the one that is most conducive to being a fighter rather than a Pokéball assist is, in fact, Greninja.

Sam cw

2014-04-16, 07:20 PM

Nothing in particular. They had to add someone from X and Y and Greninja's probably the starter they thought would work best in a fighting game.

Edit: Greninja'd. :smalltongue:

Rakaydos

2014-04-16, 07:39 PM

With Ridley heavilly implied to be a stage hazard, I will be disapointed if Charizard doesnt at least have a Ridley skin.

Zevox

2014-04-16, 10:41 PM

Old news, but Megaman and Little Mac being in Smash Bros 4 is amazing. I am a bit disappointed by the lack of King K. Rool, Dixie Kong, and (I know this one is unlikely, but) Waluigi though.
Waluigi has already been shown as an assist trophy, so he's not merely unlikely, but just plain not happening. For which I'm thankful, honestly. He's a rather lame character in my opinion.

TheSummoner

2014-04-17, 01:41 AM

Eh, I see him having a lot of potential as the sort of character that plays with your expectations...

Chargeup animation looks like a quick but weak attack? When he actually uses the attack, it's slow and powerful.
Attack looks like it's going to send you up? If it connects, it sends you flying down.

I'm in love with the idea of a character whose most dangerous ability is that he can mess with your head and Waluigi is just weird enough to pull it off. And then there's this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6CLfZl0m88). You might think he's lame, but the guy cracks me up. :smallbiggrin:

Tectonic Robot

2014-04-17, 11:37 AM

Waluigi has already been shown as an assist trophy, so he's not merely unlikely, but just plain not happening. For which I'm thankful, honestly. He's a rather lame character in my opinion.

Waluigi is glorious. His purpleness shall shine through the heavens themselves, when he finally steps into the limelight of the world.

Eh, I see him having a lot of potential as the sort of character that plays with your expectations...

Chargeup animation looks like a quick but attack? When he actually uses the attack, it's slow and powerful.
Attack looks like it's going to send you up? If it connects, it sends you flying down.

I'm in love with the idea of a character whose most dangerous ability is that he can mess with your head and Waluigi is just weird enough to pull it off. And then there's this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6CLfZl0m88). You might think he's lame, but the guy cracks me up. :smallbiggrin:

'Tis a deep shame that he isn't in the game, truly.

Dusk Eclipse

2014-04-17, 03:11 PM

Nothing in particular. They had to add someone from X and Y and Greninja's probably the starter they thought would work best in a fighting game.

Edit: Greninja'd. :smalltongue:

I dunno, Chestnaught could have also worked, he is a Fight/Grass mon after all

Mando Knight

2014-04-17, 04:10 PM

I dunno, Chestnaught could have also worked, he is a Fight/Grass mon after all

Chesnaught has a few problems:

It has a similar silhouette to Bowser (though Greninja shares this issue with Sheik)
There's already a heavy Pokémon in Charizard (though Greninja probably fills a weight/speed slot just on the Pikachu side of Lucario)
The aerial nature of Smash combat is more conducive to acrobatic characters (though Little Mac is a ground-bound powerhouse... it remains to be seen if he's viable with weak recovery and air game)

All in all, I think Greninja is the best choice, even if I still think the tongue-scarf is stupid.

Dusk Eclipse

2014-04-17, 05:02 PM

Oh I agree that Greninja is a much better choice, I just wanted to mention that there were other options.

Sith_Happens

2014-04-17, 07:03 PM

Pangoro would have been cool too.

TheSummoner

2014-04-17, 08:02 PM

Eh, of the three starters' final evolutions, I think Delphox looks the coolest. With Charizard in, a second fire type wasn't going to happen though.

Xondoure

2014-04-20, 03:18 AM

This game is the sole reason I'll be picking up a Wii U at some point.

On pokemon: I'm super disappointed it's not Hawlucha. It would have been so perfect. I suppose I'll hold out for a pokeball.

Rodin

2014-04-20, 04:30 AM

This game is the sole reason I'll be picking up a Wii U at some point.

Eh, I did that for Brawl and wound up with a console that I rarely use. Since the game is coming to the 3DS I'm going to try and and stick to that if possible. I'm confident they can pull it off - they proved it works with Street Fighter IV, after all.

Zevox

2014-04-20, 10:56 AM

This game is the sole reason I'll be picking up a Wii U at some point.
Smash and Bayonetta 2 are my big reasons at this point, but there are always going to be other great games on a Nintendo system, even if only Nintendo's own first-party ones. I've already been playing Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze, for example, and it's fantastic.

Xondoure

2014-04-20, 01:34 PM

Smash and Bayonetta 2 are my big reasons at this point, but there are always going to be other great games on a Nintendo system, even if only Nintendo's own first-party ones. I've already been playing Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze, for example, and it's fantastic.

Exactly. Smash bros will get me to the table but once there I'm sure I'll find other things that interest me.

I did reach a point where I was hardly using my wii, but there were other contributing factors. Such as it being left out when a wall got torn down in our house. So much dust. :smallfrown:

DigoDragon

2014-04-21, 08:58 AM

I did reach a point where I was hardly using my wii, but there were other contributing factors.

For me it's having a TV that's so old, it still has a working Twin-lead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin-lead) connector. :smallbiggrin:
I have a converter attached to it for F-connector cables (and then to a digital box converter so it can get channel signals), but the picture is pretty bad so I just don't bother further adding converters to get the RCA connector I need).

ObadiahtheSlim

2014-04-21, 09:29 AM

For me it's having a TV that's so old, it still has a working Twin-lead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin-lead) connector. :smallbiggrin:
I have a converter attached to it for F-connector cables (and then to a digital box converter so it can get channel signals), but the picture is pretty bad so I just don't bother further adding converters to get the RCA connector I need).

You should try to get a cheap replacement at a thrift shop.

Elhann

2014-05-30, 12:02 PM

I think a month is not old enough for a topic to consider this threadomancy.

Because a new challenger has been confirmed. And he makes hard to believe that any character from FE:Awakening will be appearing as a playable character.

We! Like!
http://www.smashbros.com/images/character/ike/main.png

Ike! (http://www.smashbros.com/es/characters/ike.html)

Zevox

2014-05-30, 12:21 PM

Because a new challenger has been confirmed. And he makes hard to believe that any character from FE:Awakening will be appearing as a playable character.
Already been discussed in the Fire Emblem thread. And no, actually, it does not - it just makes it easy to believe that we'll have three Fire Emblem characters playable this time around. Given Awakening was such a popular game (the best-selling of the series to date), and indeed basically saved the series from extinction, it makes a lot of sense to include someone from that title as a newcomer. It seems pretty unlikely that the devs would decide both that Fire Emblem could not have three characters and that Ike was not worth cutting in favor of a newcomer from Awakening.

Plus there's a potentially-legitimate newcomer leak floating around that names Chrom as one of the newcomers, so there's that as well.

Elhann

2014-05-30, 12:28 PM

Zevox

2014-05-30, 01:59 PM

Ah, I don't follow the FE thread, I didn't know this was old news.

Still, I think Crom and Marth are very similar, and the link I gave (despite being the Spanish version of the website, it should be the same as the English/Japanese one) mentions that Ike appears in FE:A, instead of PoR or RD.
If they were going for a third lord, I'd prefer seeing Ephraim or Hector (non-sword users) rather than Crom.
Chrom and Marth are only as similar as the developers of the game choose to make them. Ike was changed for his Smash Brothers incarnation, after all. In his games he's a fairly typical Lord with good stats all-around, not a slow, strong bruiser. And when he was announced for Brawl they made a big deal out of his sword being a two-handed one that he's strong enough to wield one-handed, which was not the case in his games at all - his sword was actually one of a pair that were dual-wielded by an ancient hero. No offense to her, but I sincerely doubt anyone dual-wields greatswords.

As for other Lords, I'd say the odds of them are very low. They're from older games, without any particular special place in the series' history, nor do they have a lot of fans clamoring for their inclusion. With Awakening being the most recent game and something of a landmark for the series, its characters are easily the prime candidates for being newcomers.

Rakaydos

2014-05-30, 05:14 PM

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--Kf10aQ_b--/tndodzzj8zpx2ejeyddz.jpg

http://kotaku.com/nintendo-made-a-gamecube-controller-adapter-for-wii-u-1583342868

Zevox

2014-05-30, 05:20 PM

Mando Knight

2014-05-30, 06:00 PM

Meh. I really don't see why I'd want one of those. Even if I hadn't played Brawl with Wiimote + Nunchuk, the Wii U has a classic controller that's pretty much identical to typical modern controllers, which are strictly better than the Gamecube controller.

You are underestimating how much pro-level Smash players love the Gamecube Controller.

Chrom and Marth are only as similar as the developers of the game choose to make them. Ike was changed for his Smash Brothers incarnation, after all. In his games he's a fairly typical Lord with good stats all-around, not a slow, strong bruiser. And when he was announced for Brawl they made a big deal out of his sword being a two-handed one that he's strong enough to wield one-handed, which was not the case in his games at all - his sword was actually one of a pair that were dual-wielded by an ancient hero. No offense to her, but I sincerely doubt anyone dual-wields greatswords.
Ragnell is the heaviest sword available in normal play in both Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn, though, and having Ike be both lightning-fast and monstrously strong would've made him fairly OP.

Also, Altina was apparently some kind of hyper-turbo badass, but even then, the one image we have of her (http://serenesforest.net/fe10/cg/37.png) (standing bare-back on the massive Lion laguz Soan, with Dheginsea covering their rear) is of her holding only one of the swords (Alondite is still strapped to her belt). Also one-handed, since while Fire Emblem frequently has gender-based stat caps, the fighting ladies still get a strength cap of "can decapitate a mook with a butter knife."

Zevox

2014-05-30, 06:06 PM

You are underestimating how much pro-level Smash players love the Gamecube Controller.
No. Just speaking for myself.

Ragnell is the heaviest sword available in normal play in both Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn, though, and having Ike be both lightning-fast and monstrously strong would've made him fairly OP.
Of course they wouldn't do that. But if they wanted to be more accurate to how he is in the game, they would've made him a mid-weight type, perhaps a bit heavier and stronger than Mario, to represent the fact that he's an all-around sort of character.

Also, Altina was apparently some kind of hyper-turbo badass, but even then, the one image we have of her (http://serenesforest.net/fe10/cg/37.png) (standing bare-back on the massive Lion laguz Soan, with Dheginsea covering their rear) is of her holding only one of the swords (Alondite is still strapped to her belt).
Huh, I could've sworn that image showed her wielding both blades at once. Nonetheless though, what's the point of having both if you can only use one at a time? If I recall, they're identical in terms of abilities anyway.

Sith_Happens

2014-05-30, 07:41 PM

Obviously they should include Lucina as an unlockable reskin for Marth.:smallbiggrin:

Zevox

2014-05-30, 09:12 PM

Obviously they should include Lucina as an unlockable reskin for Marth.:smallbiggrin:
I'd rather not have to unlock anything, personally. But yes, Lucina as an alternate outfit for Marth seems very appropriate, particularly given they seem to be greatly expanding how many characters get alternate outfits. You would want a separate voice actor too, but for something like this, that can't be that big of a deal.

Mando Knight

2014-05-30, 09:21 PM

I'd rather not have to unlock anything, personally. But yes, Lucina as an alternate outfit for Marth seems very appropriate, particularly given they seem to be greatly expanding how many characters get alternate outfits. You would want a separate voice actor too, but for something like this, that can't be that big of a deal.

They're also expanding what the alternate outfits include, since the Villager and Wii Fit Trainer both come in male and female flavors. Lucina as an alternate Marth seems possible. With her hair down, so as to minimize silhouette confusion with Marth.

Zevox

2014-05-30, 09:36 PM

They're also expanding what the alternate outfits include, since the Villager and Wii Fit Trainer both come in male and female flavors. Lucina as an alternate Marth seems possible. With her hair down, so as to minimize silhouette confusion with Marth.
There's really no need to minimize such confusion if she's just an alternate outfit. She wouldn't even have different attack properties like the old clone characters. But yeah, hair down seems more appropriate anyway, since that's how she spends most of the game. Maybe we could even get both that and the masked version - that one would be even easier to make.

Rakaydos

2014-05-30, 10:08 PM

As far as alternate outfits are concerned, I just want a Ridley outfit for Charizard.

Mando Knight

2014-05-30, 10:54 PM

There's really no need to minimize such confusion if she's just an alternate outfit. She wouldn't even have different attack properties like the old clone characters. But yeah, hair down seems more appropriate anyway, since that's how she spends most of the game. Maybe we could even get both that and the masked version - that one would be even easier to make.
A silhouette difference would make telling the difference between her and Marth easier when two players pick those characters and with the same color scheme, particularly on the 3DS and/or when the screen is zoomed way out. (The P1/P2/etc markers over one's head help, but aren't as fast of references in the thick of battle)

Nerocite

2014-06-01, 02:35 PM

I think Sakurai said that alternate costumes would not be different characters, just a different look.

Zevox

2014-06-01, 03:03 PM

I hope not. It would be an easy way to include characters who otherwise wouldn't be worth making playable.

Knaight

2014-06-03, 04:02 PM

KerfuffleMach2

2014-06-04, 10:17 AM

Speaking just for myself, I vastly prefer the Gamecube controller to just about anything else out there, particularly the typical modern ones.

I also prefer the Gamecube controller for Smash. It just feels better to me.

As for a potential new character, I would love to see Paper Mario.

Geno9999

2014-06-04, 01:44 PM

As for a potential new character, I would love to see Paper Mario.

I'd rather see Dr. Mario return, if only as an alternate costume.

Dienekes

2014-06-04, 03:24 PM

Speaking just for myself, I vastly prefer the Gamecube controller to just about anything else out there, particularly the typical modern ones.

Gamecube controller is the only way to play Smash Bros. I did not think that was up for debate.

KerfuffleMach2

2014-06-04, 05:46 PM

I'd rather see Dr. Mario return, if only as an alternate costume.

If any alternate version of Mario pops up, that is the most likely way.

Xondoure

2014-06-04, 07:15 PM

A Paper item that turns characters into paper versions of themselves would be pretty cool.

TheSummoner

2014-06-04, 07:45 PM

Darth Mario

2014-06-04, 07:49 PM

Gamecube controller is the only way to play Smash Bros. I did not think that was up for debate.

Real gamers rewire N64 controllers.

Xondoure

2014-06-04, 08:05 PM

It would be a neat cosmetic effect, but what would it do gameplay-wise? Make the affected character lighter? Maybe act like a reverse Metal Box that you hit an enemy with instead of using on yourself...

That could work. Other options include a drifting paper fall (possibly with a paper airplane mode,) projectiles missing you (2d planes) or even map "shortcuts" such as going around a wall or hopping in a background warp pipe if they wanted to get really creative.

Bucky

2014-06-06, 11:01 AM

Meh. I really don't see why I'd want one of those. Even if I hadn't played Brawl with Wiimote + Nunchuk, the Wii U has a classic controller that's pretty much identical to typical modern controllers, which are strictly better than the Gamecube controller.

Competitive Smashers often use non-standard controller grips and fingerings. I know the 'claw' grip is fairly popular (right hand thumb on c-stick, index finger on ABXY, middle or ring finger on R) and I personally use an arcade grip for Peach (right hand thumb on c-stick, index finger on B, middle finger on AY, ring finger on X and occasionally R). Neither of these techniques work with the Pro controller because the right stick gets in the way, and the arcade grip needs a different, worse fingering on a Wii Classic because X has been moved.

Knaight

2014-06-06, 11:52 AM

Real gamers rewire N64 controllers.

The N64 controller is the single worst controller I have ever had the misfortune to use, including the Ouya ones. That the gamecube controller was well designed (again, it's my favorite controller - in general, and not just for Smash Bros) after that thing is honestly surprising.

I mean, really. Basically everyone has two hands. Those that don't tend to have either one or zero. Why is it designed with three grips?

Bucky

2014-06-06, 12:18 PM

My best guess is that they expected most games to ignore the N64 controller's stick and use it like a SNES controller with shoulder buttons.

Rodin

2014-06-06, 01:28 PM

I mean, really. Basically everyone has two hands. Those that don't tend to have either one or zero. Why is it designed with three grips?

You'd have to ask the guy who designed the controller:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRecZ03dmhJivZphw9B-eQkHL-ACLG9wHfe761Z-rYnZBnuCkXn

TheSummoner

2014-06-06, 04:56 PM

Because the N64 controller was designed with both D-Pad and Joystick controls in mind. Right hand goes on the right grip near the buttons. For a game that uses the Joystick (most of them), you put your left hand on the center grip and can use the joystick and Z button. For a game designed around the D-Pad (Kirby 64 is the only one that comes to mind), you have the left grip with the D-Pad and the L trigger.

The thing may look ridiculous, but very versatile. They probably just didn't realize going in that there would be much demand for the D-Pad.

Rakaydos

2014-06-06, 05:01 PM

theoretically, you could even play "duel analogue" with D pad and control stick. Your only buttons would be the Z and L triggers, but for a shooter that's all you need. :p

KerfuffleMach2

2014-06-08, 11:53 PM

You'd have to ask the guy who designed the controller:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRecZ03dmhJivZphw9B-eQkHL-ACLG9wHfe761Z-rYnZBnuCkXn

Damn you Zaphod! *shakes fist angrily*

Because the N64 controller was designed with both D-Pad and Joystick controls in mind. Right hand goes on the right grip near the buttons. For a game that uses the Joystick (most of them), you put your left hand on the center grip and can use the joystick and Z button. For a game designed around the D-Pad (Kirby 64 is the only one that comes to mind), you have the left grip with the D-Pad and the L trigger.

The thing may look ridiculous, but very versatile. They probably just didn't realize going in that there would be much demand for the D-Pad.

I'm pretty sure Mischief Makers also used the D-pad.

tonberrian

2014-06-09, 02:11 AM

I'm pretty sure Mischief Makers also used the D-pad.

Marina Liteyears would be my number one pick for a fighter. I'd pick her over Isaac any day.

Shake shake!

KerfuffleMach2

2014-06-09, 10:26 AM

Marina Liteyears would be my number one pick for a fighter. I'd pick her over Isaac any day.

Shake shake!

I barely remember that game. Never owned it, just borrowed it from a friend for a little while.

huttj509

2014-06-09, 12:03 PM

Hytheter

2014-06-09, 01:26 PM

Personally I'd hook up an old dualshock if I could, but the Gamecube controller is the next best thing.

Mando Knight

2014-06-10, 11:16 AM

Iwata and Reggie confirmed for Smash!

Also you. And Mii.

And a launch date for the 3DS version: Oct. 3.

KerfuffleMach2

2014-06-10, 12:11 PM

Iwata and Reggie confirmed for Smash!

Also you. And Mii.

And a launch date for the 3DS version: Oct. 3.

So Reggie's body is ready for Smash. Good to know.

Having a Mii as a character doesn't surprise me too much. Now I'm just curious what a Mii will play like.

TheSummoner

2014-06-10, 12:16 PM

Personally I was hoping hey wouldn't shoehorn the Miis into Smash Bros...

Ah well, if nothing else, I suppose I can stage a 4-way deathmatch between Miyamoto, Iwata, Sakurai, and Reggie.

Mando Knight

2014-06-10, 12:28 PM

Now I'm just curious what a Mii will play like.

There's Brawler Mii, which is an unarmed brawler like Little Mac or Captain Falcon; Sword Mii, which use sword moves like Link or Marth; and Gunner Mii, which has an arm cannon with multiple projectiles like Samus and Mega Man.

Each Mii class will also have three different specials for each slot, to customize your Mii the way you want it.

Start here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCZ734RshPA&feature=share&t=41m), and see for yourself. (Nintendo's E3 digital event... starts with a Robot Chicken sketch, then goes into a hilariously overdone Reggie vs Iwata fistfight to introduce the Miis)

StabbityRabbit

2014-06-10, 12:35 PM

Zevox

2014-06-10, 12:35 PM

Miis actually look a little better than I was expecting, with the three different fighting styles and customizable array of special moves. Not excited for them, but I'm surprisingly fine with them.

On the flip side though: Palutena (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3FwlAMUIlI) is friggin' confirmed at last! Hell yes :smallbiggrin: ! And her moveset looks awesome. So much magic. And wings from nowhere. And a move that grants her super speed that surpasses Sonic. And her final smash is a goddamn black hole followed by a giant laser beam. :smallcool:

I officially no longer care who else is in the game. I got Mega Man and Palutena, and they both look awesome. That is plenty for me.

(Oh, slightly disappointing note, the October release for the 3DS version is a delay, since there's no way they thought that October was in the Summer when they previously said it was a summer release. But no big deal - up until they said summer release in the last direct I wasn't expecting either version until the holidays anyway.)

Dusk Eclipse

2014-06-10, 01:34 PM

So that is why people where talking about at Smash Bros. anime.... now I also want one. And the October's release date suits me just fine since my B-day is in October :smallbiggrin:

Sith_Happens

2014-06-10, 02:28 PM

So what does the avatar have left?

Bending, duh. Yes, I did see your white-text, I just chose to ignore it.

StabbityRabbit

2014-06-10, 02:31 PM

Bending, duh. Yes, I did see your white-text, I just chose to ignore it.

Yes! Nintendo make it happen.

KerfuffleMach2

2014-06-10, 05:58 PM

As soon as I saw the mii I thought "there goes the avatar". From Fire Emblem Awakening if it was unclear.

Think about it. The only niche the avatar could fill was versatile, and really customizable, but then mii comes along and says, "I'm all that, AND a self insert" So what does the avatar have left? Maybe I'm overreacting but the avatar's chances seem bleak to me.

I kinda see your point, but I'd see them putting in Chrom before the avatar.

Besides, the Mii is like the avatar for Nintendo in general, while the Awakening avatar is just for Fire Emblem.

Zevox

2014-06-10, 06:00 PM

I kinda see your point, but I'd see them putting in Chrom before the avatar.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, there's an argument to be made for the Avatar being the main character of Awakening, but Chrom is its main character in the traditional sense of the series - the main Lord - and the first parts of the game definitely center more on him than on the Avatar. If someone from Awakening is being made playable, it's almost certainly him.

Edit: By the by, the E3 invitational tournament (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCZ734RshPA) is starting now, for anyone who wants to watch.

Mando Knight

2014-06-10, 06:33 PM

Four gunship domination... I don't care how people feel about her new design, ZSS's new Final Smash is one of the best.

Zevox

2014-06-10, 06:41 PM

Yeah, that was pretty amazing. I'm a bit disappointed by how few of the new characters are getting past the first round, though.

Edit: Whose bright idea was it to keep cutting to the audience, comentators, stage, and players during that last match? We want to see the damned fight, not random people who are watching it. :smallmad:

TheSummoner

2014-06-10, 07:16 PM

They really should've come up with a more accurate way to measure fan favorite than "Hold up cards with pictures on them"

Wily stage looks incredible though.

Zevox

2014-06-10, 07:36 PM

Wow, Mega Man's final smash is even more hype than it looked in the preview. That intro sequence for all five Mega Men after he catches someone with it, just awesome. :smallcool:

Edit: Wow, grand finals were so tense. Very close match. The only one of the tournament that was a real competition, honestly. Much as it was nice seeing any kind of matches in full like that, I find myself wishing they done 1v1 no items the whole time after seeing that.

Also, personal favorite stage seen during it? Skyloft. Delphino Plaza was my favorite Brawl stage, and while I was hoping it would return, a spiritual successor like that is a more than acceptable alternative.

KerfuffleMach2

2014-06-10, 09:17 PM

Also, with the Mii character, Smash has reached a point that most fighters get around to eventually.

A character creator.

OracleofWuffing

2014-06-10, 09:23 PM

According to the Nintendo Twitter, there is another new character (https://twitter.com/NintendoAmerica/status/476549195948511233) announcement...

Zevox

2014-06-10, 10:17 PM

According to the Nintendo Twitter, there is another new character (https://twitter.com/NintendoAmerica/status/476549195948511233) announcement...
Well, Reggie did say at the end of the tournament that they were doing a round table where they would have more news later.

Also, that goes a long way towards legitimizing the big leak that's been floating around. Every character the leaker predicted before last E3 is now confirmed: Mega Man, Animal Crossing Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, Little Mac, Miis, and Pac-Man. Plus two from his list posted just before the big direct, Palutena and an X/Y Pokèmon (Greninja). If this keeps up, three of our remaining newcomers (possibly all of our remaining newcomers, but the leaker does not claim his list is complete) are Chrom from FE: Awakening, Shulk from Xenoblade, and the Chorus Men from Rythm Heaven.

OracleofWuffing

2014-06-10, 10:37 PM

For those of you hungry to see the newcomer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVz-2VuAYlY), a video is available for you to digest.

Zevox

2014-06-10, 10:44 PM

For those of you hungry to see the newcomer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVz-2VuAYlY), a video is available for you to digest.
:smallsmile: Nice. Very old-school.

Also, Mr. Game and Watch appears at the end of it, which likely means he's back. Not that there was ever a reason to think otherwise, but still. Kinda odd he'd show up before being officially revealed, though.

Edit: Apparently it's been revealed that all of those moves Palutena sounded off in her trailer are special moves, and like the Miis she gets to pick between three for each slot. Pretty interesting. Speculation as to which go to which slot:

Neutral B: Heavenly Light, Auto-Reticle, Celestial Fireworks.
Up B: Warp, Rocket Jump, Jump Glide. (These are all pretty obvious - the recovery moves.)
Side B: Explosive Flame, Super Speed, Angelic Missile.
Down B: Reflect, Counter, Lightweight.

If this is right, I think I'll be going with Heavenly Light, Explosive Flame, Rocket Jump, and either Reflect or Counter, at least at first. Maybe one of the other moves will grab me once I've tried them out, but that's my initial reaction.

KerfuffleMach2

2014-06-11, 07:48 AM

So the cherry chasing dot munched has joined the group. Should be interesting.

I still think Travis Touchdown would make for an interesting character.

cobaltstarfire

2014-06-11, 08:56 AM

Edit: Apparently it's been revealed that all of those moves Palutena sounded off in her trailer are special moves, and like the Miis she gets to pick between three for each slot. Pretty interesting. Speculation as to which go to which slot:

This has me wondering if all the characters have customizable special moves to pick from. I thought it was neat on the mii's but if a normal character like Palutena is also customizable maybe all of them will be.

StabbityRabbit

2014-06-11, 09:54 AM

This has me wondering if all the characters have customizable special moves to pick from. I thought it was neat on the mii's but if a normal character like Palutena is also customizable maybe all of them will be.

Nintendo has already said that every character will have a custom moveset. I just don't know if they'll all have three moves per slot or not.

cobaltstarfire

2014-06-11, 09:57 AM

I remember them saying that there would be customizability, I guess I just assumed it to be a special game mode or something.

CarpeGuitarrem

2014-06-11, 01:00 PM

If you can customize your character's moveset, hopefully they have some default versions for quick play. Also, that'd be a really clever use of the WiiU pad: pick your moves in secret!

If it works like that, it'd lead to a really interesting meta-spin on the fighting. You'd have to spend the opening of the fight figuring out what your opponent has slotted, while you're trying to surprise them with what you have slotted.

Zevox

2014-06-11, 01:02 PM

They've never elaborated on how the customizability will work. It's possible this is it, or it could be something they did just for Miis and Palutena. Miis because customizability is what they're all about, Palutena I'd presume because she's a goddess, and so they had a lot of ideas for moves for her, since magic is kinda flexible that way.

An aside, something I just noticed last night: Pac-Man's eyes are shaped like Pac-Men. It's both a kinda cool touch and kinda creepy.

StabbityRabbit

2014-06-11, 01:10 PM

At the very least Mario, Miis, and Palutena will be customizable.

Geno9999

2014-06-11, 01:30 PM

At the very least Mario, Miis, and Palutena will be customizable.

Everyone is customizable. (http://www.smashbros.com/us/howto/entry2.html) When it was first shown off in the Smash Bros Direct, DK and Kirby alternative moves were shown.

tonberrian

2014-06-11, 01:40 PM

But what are Palutena's standard moves? What will she use in online matches?

Sith_Happens

2014-06-11, 01:58 PM

If it works like that, it'd lead to a really interesting meta-spin on the fighting. You'd have to spend the opening of the fight figuring out what your opponent has slotted, while you're trying to surprise them with what you have slotted.

Not to mention if tournaments end up deciding to let people switch move sets between rounds of a best-two-out-of-three. Go go gadget sideboarding!

Mando Knight

2014-06-11, 02:18 PM

Zevox

2014-06-11, 03:00 PM

Customizability can be disabled locally, too, by the looks of it.

We'll see if Mii Fighters and Palutena come with "standard" forms for no-customization play (though they confirmed that "With Anyone" online play will disable the Mii Fighter).
:smallconfused: As in not allow you to play the character entirely? That's incredibly stupid. And here I was hoping Nintendo would do better with the online than in Brawl, but between keeping the "With Friends" vs "With Anyone" distinction and that, it's sounding like they haven't learned a damn thing.

cobaltstarfire

2014-06-11, 03:15 PM

It is rather disappointing to hear those sorts of things will be disabled online and such.

I can understand disabling special items at least, but customization and mii's should be allowable online and such. I'm going to guess the mii's being disallowed is to prevent lude mii's online, Nintendo has always been hyper sensitive to that sort of thing I guess because they have built such a strong reputation as a family/kid friendly company specifically.

Zevox

2014-06-11, 03:25 PM

Mando Knight

2014-06-11, 03:36 PM

:smallconfused: It's possible to make "lewd" Miis?
...Have you seen some of the Miis out there? As the potential for creativity increases, the probability that someone will misuse it for obscenities approaches unity.

Zevox

2014-06-11, 03:39 PM

...Have you seen some of the Miis out there?
No, I haven't. But from the (admittedly extremely small) amount of time I spent on making my Mii, I don't recall anything that could be used in such a fashion. And given this is Nintendo, I wouldn't expect there to be such options.

Mando Knight

2014-06-11, 03:43 PM

Well, in short, there's two kinds of Miis: those that are made to look like normal-ish people, and those that use pieces in different positions and colors to turn the Mii's face into their canvas. The obscene ones are in the latter category.

(Of course, there's those that are kinda both: using the features to make various characters, like Dilbert or Homer Simpson...)

TheSummoner

2014-06-11, 04:01 PM

Aren't Miis playable in Mario Kart?

Unless I'm mistaken about that, I really can't see why it makes sense to bar them from Smash Bros.

StabbityRabbit

2014-06-11, 04:35 PM

So it looks like DK's final smash is still awful.

Devixer

2014-06-11, 04:36 PM

Aren't Miis playable in Mario Kart?

Unless I'm mistaken about that, I really can't see why it makes sense to bar them from Smash Bros.

Yeah, they're playable in Mario Kart, I think they have been since the Wii version.

CarpeGuitarrem

2014-06-11, 04:37 PM

No, I haven't. But from the (admittedly extremely small) amount of time I spent on making my Mii, I don't recall anything that could be used in such a fashion. And given this is Nintendo, I wouldn't expect there to be such options.

I've seen some remarkably inventive Miis out there. One of them had the Olympic Rings on their face, instead of a normal face. Another one looked like Batman in the mask. Another one had a ninja with swords for a face. I've seen a Mii with the Mona Lisa for a face. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Found a lot of 'em here (http://www.miicharacters.com/index.php?category=11)

Zevox

2014-06-11, 04:45 PM

I've seen some remarkably inventive Miis out there. One of them had the Olympic Rings on their face, instead of a normal face. Another one looked like Batman in the mask. Another one had a ninja with swords for a face. I've seen a Mii with the Mona Lisa for a face. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Found a lot of 'em here (http://www.miicharacters.com/index.php?category=11)
...huh. Did not know such things were possible.

Still, if as others have said they've already enabled Miis for online play in other games, I see no excuse here. It's just plain a stupid restriction, no matter their excuse. Much like the entire "With Friends" vs "With Anyone" thing to begin with.

Mando Knight

2014-06-11, 05:30 PM

So it looks like DK's final smash is still awful.

They just showed it in the Treehouse, and it looks a lot more usable: there's now a visual representation of the timing, in the form of the Donkey Konga note highway. Once you get the rhythm down, the bongos are really strong.

Zevox

2014-06-11, 07:45 PM

TheSummoner

2014-06-11, 08:35 PM

cobaltstarfire

2014-06-11, 08:49 PM

Yeah, they're playable in Mario Kart, I think they have been since the Wii version.

That is true, I have a literal army of Mii's living on my Wii, and they're all from playing Mario Kart online. I'd forgotten about that...

So I'm really stumped on why no Mii's in smash online, it's about the only (good) reason I can think of that they would be banned anyway. Maybe there's some sort of weird technical reason for it.

Which is a pity cause I actually am a little bit interested in the Mii fighters, I didn't think I would be but the longer I saw them the more intrigued I got.

I'll just cross my fingers that Yoshi will be a little bit more like his melee/ssb versions, Brawl yoshi always handled a little oddly to me.

Zevox

2014-06-11, 09:06 PM

I really doubt it.

The simpler explanation is they just haven't finished it yet or didn't include it in the demo version for whatever reason. It's possible Dark Pit will have some additional effects beyond being a simple color swap that would make that skin take more time, and cosmetic stuff is probably pretty low on their list of priorities at the moment.
What additional effects? Even in Uprising, he's literally just a pallet swap of Pit. Like Daisy and Peach, there's nothing more that needs to be done unless he's a separate character.

Fargazer

2014-06-11, 09:17 PM

I'm pretty excited about the Palutena reveal. I'm glad to know at least some of the speculation was correct!

What additional effects? Even in Uprising, he's literally just a pallet swap of Pit. Like Daisy and Peach, there's nothing more that needs to be done unless he's a separate character.

Alternatively, Dark Pit could be an assist trophy, in which case they might not make the pallet swap available for Pit in order to avoid confusion.

Zevox

2014-06-11, 09:21 PM

Alternatively, Dark Pit could be an assist trophy, in which case they might not make the pallet swap available for Pit in order to avoid confusion.
Hm, maybe. Not sure how important they'd consider that to be, but I suppose it's possible. Still, the way they have him show up for a brief, seemingly-meaningless cameo at the end of Palutena's trailer was odd, and the combination of that and the disappearance of Pit's black alt is definitely suspicious.

AtlanteanTroll

2014-06-11, 09:41 PM

Zevox

2014-06-11, 09:49 PM

How many additional characters do you think will make it into the game? I'm banking on at least four more newcomers and two more oldies, but that would only be 39 total which just makes it equal in roster size to Brawl...
I'd expect most of the old cast are still in. I mean hell, they didn't even cut Toon Link. And they'd have to be idiots to remove characters like Captain Falcon, Ness, Ganondorf, or Wario, all of whom are still unannounced. Plus Game & Watch showed up at the end of Pac-Man's trailer. Really, the only veterans I'd worry about are Squirtle and Ivysaur (since transformations are gone and Charizard was announced without them) and Snake. Maybe Lucas and one of the Star Fox characters, though with a new Star Fox game announced I'm now less worried about them.

For newcomers, well as I said, the big leak is looking pretty strong after yesterday, and if that's right there's at least three more: Chrom from Fire Emblem, Shulk from Xenoblade, and the Chorus Men from Rythm Heaven. But that is "at least," as the leak does not claim to be a complete list - and indeed did not include Rosalina (although only one of the leak's two parts had been posted when she was announced, too).

AtlanteanTroll

2014-06-11, 10:17 PM

Zevox

2014-06-11, 10:22 PM

Hmmm. Assuming Jigglypuff comes back, that'd be another character for Pokemon giving it a +2 lead over the number of Mario characters. Maybe we can predict another proper Mario character? (Remember that Yoshi counts towards his own series, as will Wario.)
:smallconfused: Methinks your math is off there. With Jigglypuff back there would be an even number of Mario and Pokèmon characters, at five each: Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, and Rosalina on Mario's side; Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Charizard, and Greninja on Pokèmon's. Unless you're assuming the return of Squirtle and Ivysaur, which I wouldn't.

Besides which, Mario doesn't really have any other good choices for characters. Even Rosalina's kinda stretching it, being a new character whose role in her games was actually rather minor. Pokèmon at least has the excuse of having literally hundreds of equally good candidates to pick from.

Mando Knight

2014-06-11, 11:25 PM

Even Rosalina's kinda stretching it, being a new character whose role in her games was actually rather minor.

And has been in all three Mario Karts since, and is an unlockable player in 3D World. Rosalina's apparently really popular, and makes roughly the same amount of sense as adding a lead character from a single less-popular game (such as Ice Climbers).

OracleofWuffing

2014-06-11, 11:38 PM

Hytheter

2014-06-12, 12:28 AM

How many additional characters do you think will make it into the game? I'm banking on at least four more newcomers and two more oldies, but that would only be 39 total which just makes it equal in roster size to Brawl...

I'm betting on a Roster of 45+, with 1-3 more newcomers and about 10 more returning veterans.

Veterans that may be cut in order of likeliness (imo): Squirtle, Ivysaur, Snake, Lucas, Wolf, Falco, ROB, Ice Climbers.
I'm almost certain on the first three. The last three I think will probably get in, but are more likely to get cut than others.

Certain returns: Ness, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon - they've been around for three games, they ain't going anywhere.
Ganondorf and Meta Knight goddamn better be back or I'll be pissed.

Possible newcomers: Chrom (Fire Emblem Awakening), Shulk (Xenoblade), Chorus Men (Rhythm Heaven) - all three of these are based on a leaker that has so far correctly predicted every revealed newcomer except Rosalina. I could also see Robin (FE:A) and Dixie Kong. A lot of people have also thought Sceptile could appear to tie in to ORAS and complete the FWG starter trio, and Mewtwo still arguably has a case, but either starts to cause a bit of a Poke-saturation problem (though there were technically 7 Pokemon in Brawl, so maybe). Ridley would be awesome - and may be one of the most requested characters - but I doubt it, it looks like he's a stage hazard in the pyrosphere.

Beyond that I'm not sure. I was like 99% sure that Ike would be cut (but oh so pleased that he wasn't), and that Pacman was never getting in, so I'm no expert. Plus there have been some real oddballs so far so anything could happen...

Zevox

2014-06-12, 01:11 AM

I believe that Toad had a good following for adding to smash last time I checked, Princess Toadstool's B Button be darned. Though, Geno probably has a higher demand but that one's not gonna happen. I guess if I were forced to pick a new Mario character, Birdo comes to mind, and Bowser Junior but I'd hate myself for it.
I've seen small groups of people requesting Toad and Geno, but honestly I'm not convinced it's anything more than a moderately vocal minority on message boards. Geno is pretty obscure, and I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of a lot of people thinking Toad would be a good character to add.

Bowser Junior is probably the most realistic next option in my mind, sadly. Though personally I think Mario was fine with just its core four. Once a series' mainstays are all in the game, I think adding anyone more from it ought to become a substantially lower priority, personally.

Veterans that may be cut in order of likeliness (imo): Squirtle, Ivysaur, Snake, Lucas, Wolf, Falco, ROB, Ice Climbers.
I'm almost certain on the first three. The last three I think will probably get in, but are more likely to get cut than others.
I am kind of curious about Snake myself. I could see him going either way, but the fact that he wasn't revealed at E3 seems to make him less likely, I think. I'd expect they would want to hype up any further third-party characters at a major event like that - and sure enough, we did get Pac-Man revealed there.

Certain returns: Ness, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon - they've been around for three games, they ain't going anywhere.
Sadly so in Jigglypuff's case, I think. Even back when it was only the original games I always felt Pokèmon had better critters they could've used than her. Nowadays there's so many better options it's ridiculous. But yeah, I think everyone from the original game is basically going to stay forever at this point, as a tradition if nothing else.

I could also see Robin (FE:A) and Dixie Kong.
If Chrom gets in, I sincerely doubt the Avatar does. Which I'm half and half on: on the one hand, I hate his default look, which he'd likely be stuck with if he were added. On the other, I'd very much like to get a magic user from Fire Emblem one of these days, and we so rarely get a main character who uses magic in the series. Too bad we didn't get Micaiah in Brawl...

I'd also rather see K. Rool than Dixie if we were getting another DK character, personally. Or Cranky Kong, even, though that's just because I loved using him in Tropical Freeze.

and Mewtwo still arguably has a case.
I wish I could believe that, but if the leak is accurate, roster space is filling up awfully fast, and I doubt he'd get priority over newcomers or Brawl veterans, aside from maybe Ivysaur and Squirtle.

Hytheter

2014-06-12, 01:40 AM

I'd also rather see K. Rool than Dixie if we were getting another DK character, personally. Or Cranky Kong, even, though that's just because I loved using him in Tropical Freeze.

As much I would love to see K.Rool, Nintendo seems to have cast him aside. I think the last game he was in was 6 years ago, in a goddamn Mario Sports title, and the games he was in before that were pretty forgettable. Dixie Kong at least was in a recent Donkey Kong title.
It's pretty tragic. DKCR was a fantastic game but the enemies seemed so lame compared to the classic Kremlings.

I kind of agree on Robin, but I think he/she would be a much better choice than Chrom. The addition of chrom makes three Blue Haired dudes with swords. And as if that's not absurdly specific enough, Chrom and Marth have the same sword.
Robin could represent the fact that FE actually does have non-sword characters. A wide range of magic grants plenty of possible attacks, and if they absolutely must do the sword thing he can do that too - hell, let's combine the two. Levin Sword anyone?
But yeah, they'll probably just put in bland old Chrom and call it a day.

Zevox

2014-06-12, 01:56 AM

I kind of agree on Robin, but I think he/she would be a much better choice than Chrom. The addition of chrom makes three Blue Haired dudes with swords. And as if that's not absurdly specific enough, Chrom and Marth have the same sword.
Which is completely and utterly irrelevant. Hair color matters not in the slightest, and weapon choice does not make characters fight the same - we had six sword-wielders in Brawl, and the only two that were similar were the ones that were literally alternate versions of the same character. We've already added another in Smash 4, the swordfighter version of Miis, and if Shulk is actually in we'd be at eight even before Chrom. That's a non-issue.

Really, it's just a sheer coincidence that the three Fire Emblem main characters with the most prominent positions in the series' history all happen to have the same hair color and weapon of choice.

Xondoure

2014-06-12, 02:02 AM

Which is completely and utterly irrelevant. Hair color matters not in the slightest, and weapon choice does not make characters fight the same - we had six sword-wielders in Brawl, and the only two that were similar were the ones that were literally alternate versions of the same character. We've already added another in Smash 4, the swordfighter version of Miis, and if Shulk is actually in we'd be at eight even before Chrom. That's a non-issue.

Really, it's just a sheer coincidence that the three Fire Emblem main characters with the most prominent positions in the series' history all happen to have the same hair color and weapon of choice.

If you think they don't consider these things when designing characters... I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

Drascin

2014-06-12, 04:03 AM

Hm, so, interesting thing I'm hearing. Apparently, people who have played the game at the Best Buy demos are saying that Pit does not have a black alternate color scheme like he did in Brawl. Which is very curious, since that would make him look like Dark Pit, and should therefore be an obvious choice.

But put that together with the ending of Palutena's trailer, and it begs the question: could Dark Pit be a newcomer?

I honestly wouldn't have expected it, but that combination of facts does make it seem like a possibility. And honestly, I might even like it. He could use a variety of the weapons from Kid Icarus: Uprising, which would make for an awesome moveset that would be so different from Pit's that nobody could call him a clone.

If they want to make him a separate character with a different theme they could just surprise us all a bit and make it Dark Pit post-game - when he's more or less drafted into being Viridi's angel - which could be reason enough to give him some different powers. Viridi does even have a mocking line during the trailer.

Mando Knight

2014-06-12, 10:37 AM

Really, it's just a sheer coincidence that the three Fire Emblem main characters with the most prominent positions in the series' history all happen to have the same hair color and weapon of choice.

I don't think it's coincidence. Of the Lord characters, only Ephraim, Hector, and Micaiah specialize in weapons that aren't swords. Eliwood, Roy, Leaf, Cellica, and Micaiah are the only ones without blue-tinted hair (Lyn, Eliwood, and Eirika have hair colors in the bluish green regions).

Unless you start counting all of the extra nobles (Elincia, the Laguz kings, the various nobles from Holy War, etc.), there's a clear bias towards swords for the main character, and a more moderate bias towards blue hair.

Sith_Happens

2014-06-12, 01:20 PM

Unless you start counting all of the extra nobles (Elincia, the Laguz kings, the various nobles from Holy War, etc.), there's a clear bias towards swords for the main character, and a more moderate bias towards blue hair.

Gee, it's almost as if heroes prefer swords (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroesPreferSwords) and you gotta have blue hair (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouGottaHaveBlueHair).:smallwink::smalltongue:

TheSummoner

2014-06-12, 01:27 PM

As much I would love to see K.Rool, Nintendo seems to have cast him aside. I think the last game he was in was 6 years ago, in a goddamn Mario Sports title, and the games he was in before that were pretty forgettable. Dixie Kong at least was in a recent Donkey Kong title.
It's pretty tragic. DKCR was a fantastic game but the enemies seemed so lame compared to the classic Kremlings.

There are Kremlings in Smash 4. In the 3DS version's "Smash Run" mode, they appear along other Nintendo enemies... So maybe there's hope for K. Rool and the Kremlings returning at some point... Not necessarily in Smash Bros, but in general.

Zevox

2014-06-12, 03:59 PM

I don't think it's coincidence. Of the Lord characters, only Ephraim, Hector, and Micaiah specialize in weapons that aren't swords. Eliwood, Roy, Leaf, Cellica, and Micaiah are the only ones without blue-tinted hair (Lyn, Eliwood, and Eirika have hair colors in the bluish green regions).
Admittedly, in retrospect the sword thing should have been obvious. Even when we get a Lord who uses something else, they're co-star to at least one other Lord who does use swords (Lyn and Eliwood to Hector, Eirika to Ephraim, Ike to Micaiah).

But hair color? While there is more blue than any other one color, there's a fair amount of others. Lyn, Eirika, and Ephraim are all clearly green, and you listed the rest for me, totaling eight of other colors. Which is compared to Marth, Arum, Siegfried, Hector, Ike, Chrom, and Lucina with blue, totaling seven - and that's with Awakening having just added two in one game. So yeah, that one is a bit more of a coincidence. Hell, there's a gap from FE5-8 where there's only one blue-haired Lord, Hector, and he's the least important of three Lords in his game.

Xondoure

2014-06-12, 05:16 PM

Admittedly, in retrospect the sword thing should have been obvious. Even when we get a Lord who uses something else, they're co-star to at least one other Lord who does use swords (Lyn and Eliwood to Hector, Eirika to Ephraim, Ike to Micaiah).

But hair color? While there is more blue than any other one color, there's a fair amount of others. Lyn, Eirika, and Ephraim are all clearly green, and you listed the rest for me, totaling eight of other colors. Which is compared to Marth, Arum, Siegfried, Hector, Ike, Chrom, and Lucina with blue, totaling seven - and that's with Awakening having just added two in one game. So yeah, that one is a bit more of a coincidence. Hell, there's a gap from FE5-8 where there's only one blue-haired Lord, Hector, and he's the greatest of the three Lords in his game.

Okay Lyn's pretty cool. But axes.

Zevox

2014-06-12, 05:21 PM

Okay Lyn's pretty cool. But axes.
Lyn is the main character of the first third of the game. Eliwood is the main character of the remaining two-thirds. Hector gets a variant mode that makes him more the focus, but it's just a variant, which you need to unlock by beating the regular version of the game once first. That leaves him as the least important of the three to the narrative.

Xondoure

2014-06-12, 05:28 PM

Lyn is the main character of the first third of the game. Eliwood is the main character of the remaining two-thirds. Hector gets a variant mode that makes him more the focus, but it's just a variant, which you need to unlock by beating the regular version of the game once first. That leaves him as the least important of the three to the narrative.

I'm not denying that. He also uses axes. So, you know, the greatest.

Hytheter

2014-06-12, 11:03 PM

There are Kremlings in Smash 4. In the 3DS version's "Smash Run" mode, they appear along other Nintendo enemies... So maybe there's hope for K. Rool and the Kremlings returning at some point... Not necessarily in Smash Bros, but in general.

Hm, let's hope so. If there's another DKC game in the style of Returns and Tropical freeze but featuring the return of King K.Rool I'll probably need new pants.
But I'm not really confident enough that it'll happen to hope for it. Smash Run has a lot of oddball enemies doesn't it?

TheSummoner

2014-06-13, 02:19 AM

From what I've seen, Smash Run pulls enemies from a lot of different Nintendo universes. For the Donkey Kong series, it was Kremlings. I didn't see any Tikis or Snomads, but I know a Kritter when I see one.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140410134636/donkeykong/images/b/bb/Super_Smash_Bros._for_3DS_Wii_U_-_Kritter.png

KerfuffleMach2

2014-06-13, 02:38 AM

It would be good to have K. Rool in the game. And not just because of having another DK character. The game could use another villain or two to play as.

Sith_Happens

2014-06-13, 03:09 PM

It would be good to have K. Rool in the game. And not just because of having another DK character. The game could use another villain or two to play as.

Mewtwo started as a villain...

TheSummoner

2014-06-13, 08:29 PM

If you want to apply that logic, so did Donkey Kong.

KerfuffleMach2

2014-06-13, 09:04 PM

Mewtwo started as a villain...

Well, in the movie, yeah. In the game, he was more of just an out of control force. Bad, but not a villain.

TheSummoner

2014-06-14, 09:03 PM

I got a chance to play Smash Brothers 4 today. They were having events at certain Best Buy stores and I decided it was worth a day for a chance to play the game before its official release.

I mostly stuck to Little Mac and Megaman. Unfortunately they did not have the Gamecube controller adapter at the demo. An unfamiliar controller combined with new characters meant I didn't do very well at first, but by the end of the day, I was satisfied with how I played. In general, the game feels faster and weightier than Brawl, though not to the level Melee was.

Little Mac felt even faster than I had expected when I finally got a chance to control him. He hits like a truck too. His recovery is pretty terrible though, so despite his power, he's fairly easy to KO horizontally once he's taken a bit of punishment. As for Megaman, the big thing that stood out is that is fairly lacking in KO moves. All but a few of his attacks are some form of projectile, and they lack knock back compared to what I'm used to. The most consistent KO I could find was Slash Claw, one of his air attacks, which complicates things. In a stock match where playing keep-away and piling on damage from a distance is viable or in a 1 on 1 where he can dance around a single opponent, I can see him being more effective, but he didn't seem well suited to 4-man timed matches (which is how things were set up at the demo).

Bucky

2014-06-16, 08:20 PM

Ganondorf and Meta Knight goddamn better be back or I'll be pissed.

Some kid allegedly randomed Ganondorf (http://smashboards.com/threads/my-smash-4-best-buy-demo-info-impression-extravagganza.358436/) at a demo event.

Fargazer

2014-07-14, 09:11 AM

New character reveal is up. It was a very pleasant surprise.

Zevox

2014-07-14, 09:21 AM

So, we just got probably the most confusing, surprising set of reveals for Smash Brothers in a while today. One of which looks like it means the big leak was in fact fake after all.

The smaller one is the fact that today's picture-of-the-day on the site is of a trophy for Ray-Man. Yes, Ubisoft's Ray-Man. So, apparently they went through the trouble of getting the rights to a third-party character like him just to make him a trophy? Uh, what?

But beyond that, the trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY9UqmUYMLs) that was revealed in a live-stream to the site this morning was quite the surprise. It reveals our third Fire Emblem character, and it is not Chrom. It's Robin, the Avatar. Both male and female versions, apparently. And Lucina, apparently, though her moves looked identical to Marth's, so I'm guessing she's a costume, not a separate character in her own right. Chrom does show up, but for the one scene we see it looks like he's just a part of Robin's Final Smash, teaming up with him/her to beat the crap out of whoever they hit.

So, yeah, that big leak said Chrom was playable, and it looks like he isn't. So it appears we actually haven't had a real leak as yet after all, despite that one somehow successfully predicting eights characters, including the Wii Fit Trainer.

Oh, and they threw Captain Falcon into the trailer, so he's back too, not that that'll surprise anyone.

Fargazer

2014-07-14, 10:05 AM

Zevox

2014-07-14, 10:15 AM

Would they really have gone through the trouble of a release video featuring her if Lucina wasn't a separate character? She also has a page on the website that lists her as a newcomer. Her moves do look similar to Marth's, but we only saw a few, so there may still be room for diversity there.
She also doesn't get the big, triple-sized block on the character page that all of the newcomers do, which I can think of no reason for other than that she's not considered a true newcomer. Best guess for why she even gets her own page would be because she is a different person from Marth, which none of the other alternate costumes so far have been - including having her own voice actress, for example.

As for the video, they stuck her into a reveal trailer for a true newcomer, Robin. Which, again, they haven't done for any of the other newcomers. Each has gotten a video to themselves, save for the Villager, and that's because he was revealed as part of the game's very first reveal trailer. So yeah, if nothing else they're definitely not treating Lucina the same as the other newcomers.

And honestly, we saw enough of her moves that it's safe to say that if she's not a costume, she's a clone. She has Marth's aerials and Dancing Blade at the very least, and I'd say one of her pictures on the site looks like she's using Shield Breaker as well. Another appears to show her using Marth's sword-sheathing taunt, even. And she has the same idle and jumping animations as him.

Yana

2014-07-14, 10:23 AM

Even if she is a clone though, having four separate FE characters in smash is a dream come true I'd say.

StabbityRabbit

2014-07-14, 10:29 AM

Oh my gosh! The avatar is in! YAY!I wish there was a smilie for excited.

I wonder if they'll play off the fact that you could respec him into everything, or if they're just going to have her use tomes all the time. I don't really care what they do I'm just happy that I get to play Robin.

Mando Knight

2014-07-14, 10:34 AM

It looks like Robin's gimmick will be switching between different swords and tomes, since both a bronze and a levin sword are shown, as well as all the various spells being showcased.

Nilehus

2014-07-14, 10:39 AM

I'm just glad they finally confirmed the Captain. It's not SSB without him hamming it up.

Zevox

2014-07-14, 10:58 AM

Even if she is a clone though, having four separate FE characters in smash is a dream come true I'd say.
I wouldn't agree. Four unique FE characters would be, but clones are nothing to celebrate. Which is part of why I'm really hoping Lucina is just a costume.

It looks like Robin's gimmick will be switching between different swords and tomes, since both a bronze and a levin sword are shown, as well as all the various spells being showcased.
Huh, good catch on the bronze sword, I actually hadn't noticed that. Wonder how that will work?

Actually, I really wonder how the tomes will work. He said in the trailer that he can only use them so many times, so perhaps he switches after a certain number of uses of one tome? If so, I wonder if there's an option to change manually? And if they come in a set order, or are random?

Mando Knight

2014-07-14, 11:14 AM

There will probably be a "pluck" mechanic like Captain Olimar and Peach... note that the latter has apparently had her smash attack normalized, so presumably her down special is also more predictable.

It'll probably either cycle through the elements and strengths of the tomes in a predictable fashion like Olimar's Pikmin or have an execution command like Dancing Blade. I don't think fully random tome selection is probable. Customization could also influence which set of tomes you can draw from, such as only Thunder, only Fire, etc.

TheSummoner

2014-07-14, 11:49 AM

It's a pleasant surprise to have a Fire Emblem character other than a pure swordsman make it into Smash Bros. It's something I had hoped would happen with Brawl and I think it would make for some interesting game play. I just hope Robin doesn't suffer from what Megaman seemed to in my limited playtime with him... Over-abundance of ranged abilities and very little KO power as a result. No clue on how the tomes are going to work. Maybe some sort of cycle where there's a set order on which tome will be pulled next? Or possibly one input is fire attacks, one is lightning, one is wind, and the duration that you charge it determines whether it's wind, elwind, arcwind, or etc.

As for alternate costumes and the like, I've got no complaints. Many of the various Fire Emblem lords would probably play similarly. Having them as alternate costumes seems like a good way to include characters from other games and show lords other than Marth some love. (Not complaining, but I'm still surprised Ike made it back.)

Nerocite

2014-07-14, 12:22 PM

So, yeah, that big leak said Chrom was playable, and it looks like he isn't. So it appears we actually haven't had a real leak as yet after all, despite that one somehow successfully predicting eights characters, including the Wii Fit Trainer.

Leak also said that Shulk was being revealed today, so huge blowout there. Here's hoping for more surprises.

Altaria87

2014-07-14, 12:49 PM

She also doesn't get the big, triple-sized block on the character page that all of the newcomers do, which I can think of no reason for other than that she's not considered a true newcomer. Best guess for why she even gets her own page would be because she is a different person from Marth, which none of the other alternate costumes so far have been - including having her own voice actress, for example.

Just as a counter to that, on the mobile version of the site she does have her own banner, just not with the artwork picture next to it, since the artwork for her, Robin and Captain Falcon is the same one and is on Robin's page. Also, the Smash Bros. Facebook page had her own 'challenger approaching' picture. So I think that argument is just a result of poor website formatting rather than her not being a 'true newcomer'.

That said, having seen the video she is almost certainly a Marth clone, which is disappointing. But Robin is hype enough for me to ignore that.

And as for the Gematsu leak, it does make me worried for Shulk's chances, though I won't be shedding any tears for the Chorus Men.

Maryring

2014-07-14, 12:51 PM

So Robin is revealed huh?

Smash Bros 4 just jumped up from might buy to "I'm gonna buy a Wii U and camp out to get the game the moment it is released". I'm so happy that text cannot adequately express my excitement and delight. And then they go on and give us Lucina too. That is paying your proper respects to Awakening. Now Anna as an assist trophy please.

Interestingly, they even went for the hair colour and style that I had internalized as being the "proper" hair. Both for male and female Robin. That's cool too.

CarpeGuitarrem

2014-07-14, 01:39 PM

Interestingly, they even went for the hair colour and style that I had internalized as being the "proper" hair. Both for male and female Robin. That's cool too.
Either that, or they're spying on your brain. :smallbiggrin:

Mando Knight

2014-07-14, 01:53 PM

Best guess for why she even gets her own page would be because she is a different person from Marth, which none of the other alternate costumes so far have been - including having her own voice actress, for example.
Male/Female Wii Fit Trainers and Male/Female Robin have different VAs, so it's not for the voice alone. It probably is because she is named as a different person altogether, rather than being just a female counterpart like WFT, Robin, and Villager alts are.

OracleofWuffing

2014-07-14, 07:37 PM

Well, I guess if Earthbound gets a reveal like this one in a few weeks, they'll be able to start going back to series that I enjoy from then on out. Maybe Teddy, because we need more swords. :smalltongue:

Zevox

2014-07-14, 08:43 PM

Leak also said that Shulk was being revealed today, so huge blowout there. Here's hoping for more surprises.
Eh, you could always get a detail like when a reveal is happening wrong and still have accurate overall information. Claiming a character is playable and then having it proven he isn't is much more definite proof.

Though thinking it over, I don't think the leak was wholly fake. It came in several parts, the first of which, from before E3 last year, both provided the strongest evidence for it (Wii Fit Trainer, the specific name "Mii Fighters") and has been shown to be wholly accurate. It's possible that the person who received that leak took advantage of the credibility that would give him to give out false information the second time and onward - for whatever people's usual reasons for making up false leaks are, I'd imagine.

Just as a counter to that, on the mobile version of the site she does have her own banner, just not with the artwork picture next to it, since the artwork for her, Robin and Captain Falcon is the same one and is on Robin's page. Also, the Smash Bros. Facebook page had her own 'challenger approaching' picture. So I think that argument is just a result of poor website formatting rather than her not being a 'true newcomer'.
If that's the case, I'd expect them to notice and fix the error in relatively short order. We'll see if that happens. As-is though, between that and her being shoved into a newcomer trailer that focuses on someone else who isn't taking moves from another character, I think there's every reason to expect she could just be a costume.

And as for the Gematsu leak, it does make me worried for Shulk's chances, though I won't be shedding any tears for the Chorus Men.
The same - minus the "worried" part, anyway, since I haven't really played Xenoblade to develop any attachment to Shulk.

Honestly, I do feel like I should be happier that there might be more surprise characters now, but at this point, I'm really not. I've gotten my most-wanted characters, Mega Man and Palutena, so I'm pretty content there. And other characters that I'd be excited to see are either impossible (Lyn and Midna, who are assist trophies, and I think kinda missed their one chance with Brawl anyway) or seem unlikely to me (Isaac, Krystal, Mewtwo, Bayonetta). I guess it does make it seem less likely that Lucas will be cut, but I've always wound up changing mains with each new game anyway, so even that's relatively little to excite me.

Interestingly, they even went for the hair colour and style that I had internalized as being the "proper" hair. Both for male and female Robin. That's cool too.
That's just their default looks. Which, honestly, I really dislike personally, and I think it's in large part because of the hair. The white color in particular just doesn't look right to me for some reason, even for an anime-style character. Which does kinda make me hope there's some limited ability to customize their appearance, even though that's probably not gonna happen since we already have Miis for that.

Male/Female Wii Fit Trainers and Male/Female Robin have different VAs, so it's not for the voice alone. It probably is because she is named as a different person altogether, rather than being just a female counterpart like WFT, Robin, and Villager alts are.
:smallconfused: Um, yes, that is pretty much exactly what I said. The "different voice actors" part was in addition to pointing out that they're different people, not the main point.

Knaight

2014-07-15, 01:27 AM

Even if she is a clone though, having four separate FE characters in smash is a dream come true I'd say.

While this is nice, I'd appreciate it a lot more if they were a bit more different. We have a myrmidon, two pseudo-myrmidon lords (though RD Ike is a bit closer to the Hero class) and the avatar, myrmidon style. Having someone like Ephraim or Nephenee in, or even a more ranged character would be nice.

Zevox

2014-07-15, 02:05 AM

While this is nice, I'd appreciate it a lot more if they were a bit more different. We have a myrmidon, two pseudo-myrmidon lords (though RD Ike is a bit closer to the Hero class) and the avatar, myrmidon style. Having someone like Ephraim or Nephenee in, or even a more ranged character would be nice.
:smallconfused: Myrmidons? What? Even assuming Lucina isn't just a costume, we've got three Lords, one of them a heavweight bruiser, one of them a lighter-mid-weight focused on quick attacks with good reach, and a swordsman/mage hybrid in the Avatar. You could maybe argue that Marth's style, and by extension Lucina, somewhat mimics what a playable myrmidon might do, but Ike and the Avatar aren't even close.

And really, Ephraim and Nephenee would never even be serious candidates. Characters for Smash aren't picked based on how they fight, but on their role in the series and, to at least some extent, popularity among fans. Nephenee would be out due to the former - she's not even remotely a main character of her games. Ephraim is at least one of the main characters of his game, but his game is also a pretty unpopular one for the series, holding no real special place in its history or in most fans' esteem. No, what we got are all very good character choices - unless Lucina is actually a clone rather than a costume they decided to play up due to Awakening's popularity, in which case that doesn't make a lot of sense. But two of the most popular Lords in the franchise, who are also the only two with more than one game to their name, and one of the main characters of Awakening certainly makes a lot more sense as character choices for a game like Smash than the likes of Ephraim or Nephenee ever would.

Altaria87

2014-07-15, 02:24 AM

So Sakurai's picture and comments today confirm that Lucina is a Marth clone, but without the sweetspot and with a smaller hurtbox. However, she is not a costume and is her own character!

And in terms of minor character from the series, I agree with Zevox in that you couldn't really get Nephenee or other popular characters like Owain or Tharja in because there's not even any guarantee that the majority of players use them. It would be nice though if some of the Lords could've used their secondary weapons, like Lucina's lance or Ike's axe.

SiuiS

2014-07-15, 02:29 AM

The N64 controller is the single worst controller I have ever had the misfortune to use, including the Ouya ones. That the gamecube controller was well designed (again, it's my favorite controller - in general, and not just for Smash Bros) after that thing is honestly surprising.

I mean, really. Basically everyone has two hands. Those that don't tend to have either one or zero. Why is it designed with three grips?

Versatility. It worked for a variety of games in a variety of ways... Provided the programmers did it right. Pistol grip, controller grip, we even had one game I recall that worked best in a reverse pistol, right hand on center and left hand on the D-Pad.

The GameCube controller, which as I recall sort of built on the dreamcat controller (one of my eternal favorites!) was a step up, but it simply was a matter of figuring out what worked and what was needed.

Sith_Happens

2014-07-15, 04:39 AM

the trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY9UqmUYMLs)

I know all those voices I know all those voices I know all those voices... *pulls hair*

Zevox

2014-07-15, 09:52 AM

So Sakurai's picture and comments today confirm that Lucina is a Marth clone, but without the sweetspot and with a smaller hurtbox. However, she is not a costume and is her own character!
:smallsigh: And that decision just baffles me. Being a costume seems like the perfect way to handle the character. They're doing those in significant numbers for the first time now (there was Wario in Brawl, but he was the only one there), she looks and would logically play so much like Marth but, partially because of that, doesn't really warrant the effort to make unique. Seems like the sort of thing to throw in just because it's easy and will please a lot of people. No need to waste time, or invite the inevitable complaints about a wasted roster slot, by giving her minor differences that amount to creating another clone. Surely they know by now how many people dislike those.

Ugh, oh well, no changing it now. So we're on two such characters, with her and Toon Link. I just hope this doesn't mean they're going to leave Ganondorf unaltered, or give no consideration to de-cloning Falco even further than they did in Brawl, or changing up Wolf and Lucas' special moves and final smashes. Especially Ganondorf - he really deserves to have a moveset that actually reflects his character, and it still baffles me that they didn't give him one going into Brawl.

Altaria87

2014-07-15, 12:38 PM

I really don't mind Lucina's clone-ness much at all. Most people know that clones aren't actually 'taking up a slot' and additional FE and female representation even if with a clone is better than none. Besides, apparently some of the animations shown by Lucina in the trailer are somewhat distinct from Marth's (her nair seems to have three hits instead of two, her up-b has more horizontal distance) so she may still play differently.

That said, if Ganondorf is still a Captain Falcon clone I will be quite displeased, there's no excuse for him not to have a unique moveset in his third game when his being a clone never made sense to begin with. A friend and I even discussed the possibility the other day that he could be replaced by Demise, who could have a unique moveset.

Rodin

2014-07-15, 02:53 PM

Changing Ganondorf could be divisive, though. He's had his same moveset for two games, and changing him to something completely new is essentially removing Ganondorf and replacing him with a new character. I've always liked playing Ganondorf and felt his style was sufficiently different to separate him from the Cap'n.

As such, I've got a divided opinion. On the one hand, clones are bad and we should have as few as possibble. On the other, if they change Ganondorf I'm losing a favorite character.

I think it's most likely that he won't get changed. After two games, he's a pretty established character by this point, even if he is a clone.

Hytheter

2014-07-15, 11:28 PM

Personally I think the difference in speed and power is enough for Ganondorf (who I much prefer playing over Captain Falcon) but we'll see.
I'm hoping Lucina won't be a total clone like the pic of the day comments imply, but has subtle differences between moves like say between Fox and Falco. But if not, I wouldn't mind trying a tip-less Marth.

The nice thing about Lucina being a clone though is that it reinvigorates hope for Lucas, Wolf, Falco and Ganondorf. With that in mind, I don't see anyone from Brawl being cut except Snake, Squirtle and Ivysaur. That would bring us to 47 characters, so I'm betting on a total of 49 with two yet unseen newcomers (random makes 50 slots for a nice 5x10 grid). That would exactly 10 more than Brawl with a total of 13 newcomers - both less than the Melee-Brawl transition, but still makes for a nicely beefed up roster (and obviously the rate of increase between Melee and Brawl was pretty unsustainable).
I could also see a 48 grid with more cuts or fewer newcomers, or even a 4x13 52 grid, but I'm sticking with 49 as my final guess.

Zevox

2014-07-16, 12:35 AM

That said, if Ganondorf is still a Captain Falcon clone I will be quite displeased, there's no excuse for him not to have a unique moveset in his third game when his being a clone never made sense to begin with.
Agreed completely.

Changing Ganondorf could be divisive, though. He's had his same moveset for two games, and changing him to something completely new is essentially removing Ganondorf and replacing him with a new character. I've always liked playing Ganondorf and felt his style was sufficiently different to separate him from the Cap'n.
Frankly? Screw that. Ganondorf being a clone in Melee was forgivable, because the game was rushed near the end - hence the large number of clones to begin with. But afterward, there's no excuse. The moveset he's been stuck with does not at all reflect his character. He's a sorcerer, shape-shifter, and occasionally a swordsman. He should not be fighting using a bunch of moves copied from an acrobatic fist-fighter, and no amount of changes to how fast and strong they are compared to the Captain can ever make up for that. It's pure nonsense that they didn't change him in Brawl, and it will be again if they don't now.

If they're at all concerned about upsetting people who actually played him as-is, they can throw in a new character who gets that moveset for all I care (I've seen some people recommend an F-Zero character called Blood Falcon for that before). But it doesn't belong on Ganondorf.

I'm hoping Lucina won't be a total clone like the pic of the day comments imply, but has subtle differences between moves like say between Fox and Falco.
I hope the reverse. A big part of the problem with clones is that they're wasting time making characters that more or less the same as another, but with small differences very few will care about. That's why being a costume is better - no extra time spent on such pointless exercises, just give us the option to play as the character using the moves of whoever is appropriate, and spend that time on characters who will actually be unique instead. (Also, the differences be Fox and Falco ceased to be all that subtle in Brawl, where Falco got a number of his moves changed. Could still use more, of course, but still.)

The nice thing about Lucina being a clone though is that it reinvigorates hope for Lucas, Wolf, Falco and Ganondorf.
Ganondorf was never going to be cut, no matter what they do with his moves. He's one of the three major characters of one of Nintendo's most popular franchises. They wouldn't dream of removing him any more than they would Bowser.

Falco and Wolf I haven't been worried about since they announced that a new Star Fox game is coming back at E3. When Star Fox looked like a dead franchise there was cause for concern I think, but with that gone, I expect both to be back.

Also, funny thing about Lucas and Wolf: they're not clones. The only things they share with Ness and Fox are special moves and a final smash, and even within those they each have a special move that is so different as to be more "inspired by" Fox and Ness' moves than copied from them: Wolf's blaster and Lucas' PK Fire. So there's very little that needs to be done to make them cease even resembling Ness and Fox by even that little bit.

Sith_Happens

2014-07-16, 02:36 AM

The nice thing about Lucina being a clone though is that it reinvigorates hope for Lucas, Wolf, Falco and Ganondorf. With that in mind, I don't see anyone from Brawl being cut except Snake, Squirtle and Ivysaur. That would bring us to 47 characters, so I'm betting on a total of 49 with two yet unseen newcomers (random makes 50 slots for a nice 5x10 grid).

*cough*Mr.Game&Watch*cough*

Zevox

2014-07-16, 07:26 AM

*cough*Mr.Game&Watch*cough*
:smallconfused: What about him? If you're suggesting he might be cut, I'd sincerely doubt it. Heck, they already had him cameo at the end of Pac-Man's trailer, even.

Hytheter

2014-07-16, 08:27 AM

*cough*Mr.Game&Watch*cough*

Yeah, no, I stand by my statement. Game and Watch is one of the least likely to be cut imo.

I hope the reverse. A big part of the problem with clones is that they're wasting time making characters that more or less the same as another, but with small differences very few will care about. That's why being a costume is better - no extra time spent on such pointless exercises, just give us the option to play as the character using the moves of whoever is appropriate, and spend that time on characters who will actually be unique instead.

She's not a costume though. She already has her own roster slot, and some small differences. If they've already gone to the effort of modelling and animating her, giving her different hitboxes (offensively and defensively) they might as well go the extra mile to make the moves feel a little different. It could take as little as changing the speed or power of attacks, or the direction they send opponents in, which is basically all numerical as far as I know and would barely add any extra development time at all.

Also, funny thing about Lucas and Wolf: they're not clones. The only things they share with Ness and Fox are special moves and a final smash, and even within those they each have a special move that is so different as to be more "inspired by" Fox and Ness' moves than copied from them: Wolf's blaster and Lucas' PK Fire. So there's very little that needs to be done to make them cease even resembling Ness and Fox by even that little bit.

I guess it depends how strictly you define a clone. I am familiar with the differences - in fact I much Lucas and Wolf over Ness and Fox (Lucas' Up smash and Wolf's Side Smash make me very happy). But they do have some glaring similarities, and if "similarity to other characters" is a possible criteria for character removal then I'd expect them to be on the chopping block.

Dienekes

2014-07-16, 09:25 AM

I'm curious what the criteria for clone is then. Because honestly as of Brawl, Wolf and Lucas feel more similar to Fox and Ness than Ganondorf does to Captain Falcon. At least to me.

Sith_Happens

2014-07-16, 12:24 PM

Yeah, no, I stand by my statement. Game and Watch is one of the least likely to be cut imo.

I read your post wrong, I somehow glazed over the words without really registering the words "don't see anyone from Brawl being cut except" and therefore was insinuating that you forgot about G&W when making your "49 characters" prediction

Xondoure

2014-07-16, 03:18 PM

I'm curious what the criteria for clone is then. Because honestly as of Brawl, Wolf and Lucas feel more similar to Fox and Ness than Ganondorf does to Captain Falcon. At least to me.

How? Ganondorf's moves are the same as the Captain, only slower. Meanwhile, Lucas and Wolf have all of their moves twisted in some fashion, and a few taken in an entirely different direction.

Dienekes

2014-07-16, 03:40 PM

How? Ganondorf's moves are the same as the Captain, only slower. Meanwhile, Lucas and Wolf have all of their moves twisted in some fashion, and a few taken in an entirely different direction.

Their side specials are very different, Ganondorf doesn't have the super knee thing, or really, most of his smashes are different than Caps. No double kick up smash, can't jab combo, have completely different final smashes. It all adds up to him just playing differently to me. When I play Wolf or Fox the only differences I notice are the gun dealing more damage but not spammable and the side special going at a 45 degree angle instead of straight. I know there's more to them, but they end up playing similar.

Zevox

2014-07-16, 04:01 PM

I'm curious what the criteria for clone is then. Because honestly as of Brawl, Wolf and Lucas feel more similar to Fox and Ness than Ganondorf does to Captain Falcon. At least to me.
I can't imagine how that's possible. As I pointed out, Wolf/Fox and Lucas/Ness share almost no moves - only really three specials and a final smash. Ganondorf's moves are almost universally Captain Falcon's but slower and stronger, with only a few exceptions. They're opposite ends of the spectrum, with Ganondorf being about the most clone-y of any character in Brawl (competing with Toon Link only for that) while Lucas and Wolf are the characters that are the least like the characters that they share some moves with. (Except for Ike and Marth, who share counter and nothing else, but nobody accuses them of being clones, unlike Wolf and Lucas.)

Their side specials are very different, Ganondorf doesn't have the super knee thing, or really, most of his smashes are different than Caps. No double kick up smash, can't jab combo, have completely different final smashes. It all adds up to him just playing differently to me. When I play Wolf or Fox the only differences I notice are the gun dealing more damage but not spammable and the side special going at a 45 degree angle instead of straight. I know there's more to them, but they end up playing similar.
I can only imagine that you simply play far more Ganondorf than Wolf or Lucas, then, because there's simply no comparison here. And you're actually just factually wrong about Ganondorf's smashes - two of the three are literally just Captain Falcon's but slower and stronger, with the only difference being his up smash being a single hit instead of two, and even that is still a high kick attack that at the same angle as Cap's. The only moves that really differ significantly between the two are their up tilts (with Ganondorf's getting that explosion when it drops and being stupid slow - still the same animation otherwise, though), forward airs (Ganondorf gets an overhead punch instead of the knee), and Ganondorf's lack of multiple jabs you already mentioned (but his jab is still just a slower, stronger version of Cap's first one). And final smashes, but final smashes don't really matter in this respect, since you can't even use them without an item.

And as someone who mained Lucas and also played Ness? Yeah, outside of their recovery (damn PK thunder...) and their weird double-jump arc, there's no similarity between them in practice. Hell, Lucas actually has possibly the most unique back air in the entire game, being the only one I can think of that's designed to knock the opponent downward (it's a spike move) instead of back horizontally.

Sith_Happens

2014-07-16, 05:58 PM

When I play Wolf or Fox the only differences I notice are the gun dealing more damage but not spammable and the side special going at a 45 degree angle instead of straight. I know there's more to them, but they end up playing similar.

For one thing, Wolf is 150% more conductive to accidental suicides. I should know, I main him and still average a self-destruct per brawl.:smallyuk:

Zevox

2014-07-16, 06:20 PM

Back on discussing our new characters, Sakurai gave a couple of details about how Robin functions in today's picture-of-the-day posts. The Levin Sword has a limited number of uses, and is replaced by the Bronze Sword when it breaks, but it will regenerate over time. His tomes he says "change with each special attack" use - which I take to mean that each special attack uses a different tome, since we don't see Robin dropping a tome every time he casts a spell in the trailer. So, I'd guess that a tome running out will work similarly to the Levin sword - that special move becomes unavailable for a time. Perhaps replaced by something else? Sword attacks, maybe?

I'm really curious what the differences between the Levin and Bronze swords will be. Do entire moves change, or is it just a difference in hitting power? I hope the former, because the latter would be kind of dull. Also because it would be nice to see the Levin Sword actually tossing some lightning around for some of its moves, rather than just being a fancy-looking sword.

OracleofWuffing

2014-07-16, 07:30 PM

Hytheter

2014-07-16, 07:58 PM

I'm really curious what the differences between the Levin and Bronze swords will be. Do entire moves change, or is it just a difference in hitting power? I hope the former, because the latter would be kind of dull. Also because it would be nice to see the Levin Sword actually tossing some lightning around for some of its moves, rather than just being a fancy-looking sword.

Yeah I'll be kind of annoyed if it can't actually shoot lightning - but the fact he has a Arc/El/Thunder/Thoron Tome makes it seem unlikely. It'll probably just have electricky particles and effects when it hits them.
Ironically, in Awakening the sword only shot lightning; for some reason you couldn't actually hit people with it, which irritated me as well. I mean, for as long as I had the Levin Sword which... wasn't very long.

It comes to mind they totally should start making Links' sword shoot lasers when he's at 0% health. :smallbiggrin:

That would be awesome.

Zevox

2014-07-16, 08:02 PM

I'm betting the Bronze Sword is just a strict power-down from the Levin Sword (not necessarily just damage, maybe shorter range and/or fewer special effects, too, but no change in general attack directions). Otherwise, it kind of falls into making a character transform into another character, and they were kind of trying to cut those out. That said, I don't know anything about the Levin Sword in-series, so all I'm running off of is that it had yeast added during the forging process. :smalltongue:

It comes to mind they totally should start making Links' sword shoot lasers when he's at 0% health. :smallbiggrin:
The Levin Sword in Fire Emblem is a magic blade that shoots lightning, allowing it to be used to attack from either one or two spaces away, something that normally only magic and throwing weapons can do. (Its damage is also based on the magic stat instead of strength, but that's hardly relevant to Smash Bros.) My hope would be that they treat it as such, and have some of its attacks involve it actually shooting lightning, rather than just treat it like a cool-looking sword that leaves a fancy lightning effect on the target when it connects.

I'd hardly compare having a couple of moves change under specific circumstances equivalent to total character change, either. I sincerely doubt that's a concern at all.

Zevox

2014-07-17, 01:46 AM

Apparently, Sakurai recently did an interview about the choice of new Fire Emblem characters for Smash, which has been translated (http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=121384840&postcount=8201) by a poster from NeoGaf. He explains why Robin and Lucina were chosen over Chrom to be playable.

Interesting to note is that he did consider making Lucina an alternate costume for Marth. Apparently the only reason she isn't is because he decided to remove the sword-tip sweet-spot from her, to make her easier for new players to use than Marth. He says that "In that sense, you could say she was very lucky to join the fray!"

I'll say this: it is kind of good to know he did consider making her a costume instead. I don't think in the slightest that removing the tipper mechanic was a good reason to do otherwise, though. It's really not that big of a deal.

He also confirms what I guessed earlier - Robin's spells are assigned to different special moves (Neutral = thunder, chargeable for the more powerful versions; up = wind, side = fire, down = Nosferatu), and the tomes will break and regenerate like the Levin Sword. No mention of the moves being replaced while the tomes are broken, though, so they may just become unavailable then.

Edit: Okay, I have to say, Lucina!-Kirby is awesome (http://nintendoeverything.com/wp-content/uploads/smash-bros-scan-2.jpg).

Altaria87

2014-07-17, 04:15 AM

Sakurai did only say that Lucina and Chrom had the same 'strength, speed and special attacks', so there could still be differences in their standards and aerials. I want to believe.

Xondoure

2014-07-24, 10:33 PM

Got a chance to try the game out at comic con today! So far Little Mac is my favorite out of the newcomers with Wii Fit Trainer in dead last. I just couldn't get her to work well at all. Villager is fun if a bit tricky. That bowling ball... And I agree with earlier discussion of how Mega Man seems to lack finishing power. Rosalina was cool I suppose. Zelda's new down b is fun if not quite what she needed.

Unrelated: Hyrule Warriors is wicked fun.

digitalworkshed

2014-07-30, 08:18 AM

Can't wait for this game to be released! Been playing Smash Bros and I can't get enough of it! Sooooo excited! :smallbiggrin:

tonberrian

2014-08-05, 03:06 PM

Maybe we'll get Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf (http://operationrainfall.com/2014/08/04/hyrule-warriors-ganondorf-reveal/) for Smash!

...

I can dream...

Zevox

2014-08-05, 08:38 PM

Maybe we'll get Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf (http://operationrainfall.com/2014/08/04/hyrule-warriors-ganondorf-reveal/) for Smash!

...

I can dream...
I certainly hope so. If nothing else I want that appearance as alternate costume for him. Preferably also a moveset like that one.

OracleofWuffing

2014-08-05, 10:10 PM

Did we ever get confirm/deny on those people claiming that Gannnnondorf was appearing in the Best Buy demos from random selections?

In other news? For the Frog the Bell Tolls. Yes!

Maryring

2014-08-06, 04:42 AM

Zevox

2014-08-06, 08:11 AM

One thing I'm thinking about Ganondorf. Everyone's getting some updates due to there now being multiple sets of special moves for all characters to offer some customization, right? If so, might mean that while Ganondorf still has CF's punch, kick and uppercut, the new sets of specials might be different from one another.
That would by no means solve the problem. It's not just his special moves that don't fit Ganondorf, it's the normals as well. He's a dark sorcerer and sometimes swordfighter, not a fist-fighting brawler. He should have a moveset that's actually based on how he fights, just like everyone else.

Geno9999

2014-08-07, 01:00 PM

The most important part of today's update: you can buy trophies now. (https://miiverse.nintendo.net/replies/AYMHAAACAAAYUKlgxu9B8A)
All my Yeah!

Knaight

2014-08-07, 02:32 PM

The most important part of today's update: you can buy trophies now. (https://miiverse.nintendo.net/replies/AYMHAAACAAAYUKlgxu9B8A)
All my Yeah!

Hopefully there is also a new trophy minigame - I quite enjoyed the one in Brawl, and even in Melee the slot machine wasn't bad.

TheSummoner

2014-08-09, 01:52 PM

I never had a problem having to actually earn them... Or wouldn't had the game just given me a chance to get the 5 or so I still needed and didn't insist on giving me 20 of the ones I already had.

Dienekes

2014-08-09, 05:53 PM

Zevox

2014-08-09, 09:00 PM

Did trophies ever do anything? I think I checked them out when I first got the game and then never bothered with them again. Or are they like achievements which are essentially useless but people try to collect them anyway?
Pretty much, yeah. And I'm of the same mindset - I really don't care what they do with trophies in the slightest. Doesn't impact me in any way, because I'm not into collecting things just for the sake of collecting.

TheSummoner

2014-08-11, 03:26 AM

I sorta doubt it will happen, but does anyone else think that the other captains from Pikmin would be perfect as alternate skins for Olimar?

This thought certainly has nothing to do with me learning to speedrun Pikmin... Certainly not...

Altaria87

2014-08-11, 04:17 AM

So is anyone else's mind blown by today's Sakurai picture?

I think it means Meta-Knight is confirmed because he's being shown with Samus but I don't even know what to believe anymore.

Zevox

2014-08-11, 04:33 PM

So is anyone else's mind blown by today's Sakurai picture?

I think it means Meta-Knight is confirmed because he's being shown with Samus but I don't even know what to believe anymore.
It means only that there are more ways to customize Miis than we previously knew, nothing more. Meta-Knight will be confirmed when he actually gets revealed - or when the game comes out, since it'll be out in Japan in about a month, and they don't seem to be rushing to confirm the missing veterans, so they're probably holding some back due to being unlockable. Not that there's any doubt that he'll be playable anyway, since there'd be no reason to remove him.

Hytheter

2014-08-11, 09:04 PM

Not that there's any doubt that he'll be playable anyway, since there'd be no reason to remove him.

Sakurai: "We felt Meta Knight was too powerful, so we removed him entirely. (laughs)"

Zevox

2014-08-11, 09:08 PM

Sakurai: "We felt Meta Knight was too powerful, so we removed him entirely. (laughs)"
Right, because Sakurai has displayed so very much concern over and understanding of the games' competitive balance to date.

Plus, really, what idiot would think that the response to a character being too powerful is to remove them rather than change them?

Hytheter

2014-08-11, 09:39 PM

Come on, I was obviously joking.

Besides, based on people's impressions of the demo versions, and some of Sakurai's comments, I don't think it's fair to say he's not concerned with balancing the fighters.

Zevox

2014-08-11, 09:50 PM

Besides, based on people's impressions of the demo versions, and some of Sakurai's comments, I don't think it's fair to say he's not concerned with balancing the fighters.
It's those very things, combined with the evidence of the previous games, which leads me to the reverse conclusion. Or at least, if he is at all concerned with balancing the game, he hasn't the slightest clue how to.

Hytheter

2014-08-11, 10:11 PM

OracleofWuffing

2014-08-11, 10:11 PM

Plus, really, what idiot would think that the response to a character being too powerful is to remove them rather than change them?
The same kind of idiot that would randomly have fighters trip when running around. This was also a joke and not meant to be taken seriously. I'm just bitter about the Meta Knight tease.:smalltongue:

Sith_Happens

2014-08-11, 10:21 PM

Plus, really, what idiot would think that the response to a character being too powerful is to remove them rather than change them?

Mewtwo.

...Not that he was too good, just, what kind of idiot removes Mewtwo?

Zevox

2014-08-11, 10:23 PM

I don't know how the Demo impressions or Sakurai's comments lead you to the reverse conclusion; from what I've heard the general consensus is that all the characters bar Zelda (who sucks) are pretty well balanced, and I'm sure Sakurai has stated several times that balance is important to him.
I've heard much the reverse - that the game has a fair few obvious balance issues, from character-specific ones (Mega Man lacking any killing power is a common complaint I've heard, to use just one example) to general gameplay ones (most attacks on all characters having a lot of recovery time and thus being unsafe on block or whiff, which would create a serious imbalance in favor of whatever characters have a good attack or two that is safe to use and encourage spamming those attacks). Which, really, isn't surprising, given how poorly balanced the rest of the series has been.

Dienekes

2014-08-12, 04:19 PM

I've heard much the reverse - that the game has a fair few obvious balance issues, from character-specific ones (Mega Man lacking any killing power is a common complaint I've heard, to use just one example) to general gameplay ones (most attacks on all characters having a lot of recovery time and thus being unsafe on block or whiff, which would create a serious imbalance in favor of whatever characters have a good attack or two that is safe to use and encourage spamming those attacks). Which, really, isn't surprising, given how poorly balanced the rest of the series has been.

What I remember reading when the game was first announced was that SSB was always meant to be at least decently balanced, however, all the design decisions were made mostly by Sakurai so they're all from the perspective of one guy who is more interested in fun. This game was going to have more hands on deck to try and balance the thing better.

However, I doubt they'll be particularly successful. The games I know that are considered decently balanced now only got that way through rigorous patching after the game came out. Unless there are plans to implement such patches post release it probably won't be happening.

Zevox

2014-08-12, 04:46 PM

What I remember reading when the game was first announced was that SSB was always meant to be at least decently balanced, however, all the design decisions were made mostly by Sakurai so they're all from the perspective of one guy who is more interested in fun. This game was going to have more hands on deck to try and balance the thing better.

However, I doubt they'll be particularly successful. The games I know that are considered decently balanced now only got that way through rigorous patching after the game came out. Unless there are plans to implement such patches post release it probably won't be happening.
Yes, I heard he mentioned the exact number of people he has helping him balance this game at E3, in fact. Twelve. Which, for a fighting game, is abysmally small. Just for an example, Arc System Works (BlazBlue, Persona Arena, Guilty Gear) does public play-testing of their games during development to get feedback on balance from multitudes of people in addition to the designers, and they still have plenty of balance issues in their games that require patching and whole new versions to tweak. And they take competitive play of their games far more seriously than Sakurai has ever seemed to.

So yeah, again, my impression is that even if he does care, Sakurai has no idea what he's doing as far as balancing these games goes.

Rodin

2014-08-12, 04:59 PM

Given that you have to turn off huge chunks of features to get it to even resemble a competitive game, it's hardly a surprise.

Brawl was mostly a step up for me - the heavy slow characters weren't nearly as marginalized as they were in Melee, and the top-tier characters felt closer to the rest of the pack with the glaring exception of Meta-Knight.

Honestly, even a single post-release patch to say "Okay, these 3 characters are way out of line and these 3 characters suck, let's fix that" would be a welcome boon. Other than that, I'll continue to play on all the crazy stages with items turned on and let the randomness sort out the imbalances.

I frankly don't care how "tournament ready" the game is since that's not what I'll be playing anyway. I just hope they have Stock multiplayer this time, unlike having it fixed to a short score game like in Brawl.

Give me the option to pick between 2-4 players, put in a stage select like that in the new Mario Kart (random pick from those voted), and the option to pick Stock as my game-type. That's all I'll need to be a happy camper as long as every game doesn't turn into 4 Meta-Knights going at it.