Return of the Tibbit, Part 1: The Tibbiting

[Red Fel]

Some of you may recall my previous Tibbit builds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314320-3-5-Build-Here-Kitty-Kit-ARGH!), and my subsequent attempt to build a Tibbit Thrallherd thrall (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318870-3-5-Build-A-Cohort-for-Kitty). Alas, the tables fell, and the world was no longer at ease.

Well, it's a new forum, with new tables, and I wanted to try them both out. So let's try something new, if only somwwhat different - a gestalt Tibbit Telepath/Thrallherd//XX. Assuming there is interest, this will be the first of three threads on the subject - one for the Tibbit, and one for each of the two Thralls (I have several options in mind for them).

As always, the rules:

Race: Tibbit. Templates are acceptable if they don't remove the Tibbit's basic racial abilities. No LA (unless buyoff is assumed, in which case no LA greater than +2).
Classes: Psion (Telepath) with the Telepathy ACF (and later Mindsight) is mandatory. Full Thrallherd is mandatory. Taking Psion on the opposite side of the first and last levels of Thrallherd is optional. Additional classes must have functions which can operate while the Tibbit is in ittybittykittyform.
Levels: 1-20.
Books: 3.5 encouraged. 3.0 allowed. No PF, no 3rd party, no 4e. Dragon Magazine allowed, not preferred. Dragon Compendium is fine.
Goal: A psychic mastermind who operates invisibly. Ideally, all powers operate invisibly (or near-invisibly) while in ittybittykittyform. So while Soulmelds are nice, having a kitty surrounded by the glowing silhouette of a Slaad or Deva isn't exactly subtle.
No DCS or similar cheese.

Pencils up, and... begin!


Behold, a table!



Level
Classes (Left)
Classes (Right)
BAB
Fortitude
Reflex
Will
Features
Feats
Power Points
Powers Known
Inspiration Points
Spell Level
Soulmelds
Essentia
Chakra Binds
Maneuvers Known
Maneuvers Readied
Stances Known


1st
Psion 1
Factotum 1

+0

+0

+2

+2
Bonus Feat, Discipline (Telepathy), Inspiration, Cunning Insight, Cunning Knowledge, Trapfinding
Inquisitor, Psicrystal Affinity
2
3
2
--
--
--
--
--
--
--


2nd
Psion 2
Factotum 2

+1

+0

+3

+3
Arcane Dilettante (1 spell)

6
5
3
0
--
--
--
--
--
--


3rd
Psion 3
Factotum 3

+2

+1

+3

+3
Brains over Brawn, Cunning Defense
Linked Power
11
7
3
1
--
--
--
--
--
--


4th
Psion 4
Factotum 4

+3

+1

+4

+4
Arcane Dilettante (2 spells), Cunning Strike

17
9
3
1
--
--
--
--
--
--


5th
Psion 5
Factotum 5

+3

+1

+4

+4
Telepathy*, Opportunistic Piety

25
11
4
2
--
--
--
--
--
--


6th
Psion 5 / Thrallherd 1
Factotum 5 / Psion 1

+4

+2

+5

+6
Thrallherd
Metapower
35
13
4
2
--
--
--
--
--
--

7th
Psion 5 / Thrallherd 2
Factotum 6 / Psion 1

+5

+3

+6

+7


46
15
4
2
--
--
--
--
--
--
[/tr]

8th
Psion 5 / Thrallherd 3
Factotum 7 / Psion 1

+6

+4

+7

+7
Psionic Charm, Arcane Dilettante (3 spells)

58
17
4
2
--
--
--
--
--
--


9th
Psion 5 / Thrallherd 4
Factotum 8 / Psion 1

+7

+4

+8

+8
Cunning Surge
Psicrystal Containment
72
19
5
3
--
--
--
--
--
--


10th
Psion 5 / Thrallherd 5
Factotum 9 / Psion 1

+7

+5

+8

+9
Psionic Dominate, Arcane Dilettante (4 spells)

88
21
5
3
--
--
--
--
--
--


11th
Psion 5 / Thrallherd 6
Factotum 10 / Psion 1

+8

+6

+9

+10
Opportunistic Piety (+1 use)

106
22
5
4
--
--
--
--
--
--


12th
Psion 5 / Thrallherd 7
Factotum 11 / Psion 1

+9

+6

+9

+10
Greater Dominate, Cunning Breach
Midnight Augmentation
126
24
6
4
--
--
--
--
--
--


13th
Psion 5 / Thrallherd 8
Factotum 11 / Psion 1 / Marshal 1

+10

+8

+9

+12
Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Minor Aura

147
25
6
4
--
--
--
--
--
--


14th
Psion 5 / Thrallherd 9
Factotum 11 / Psion 1 / Marshal 1 / Incarnate 1

+10

+10

+10

+14
Superior Dominate, Aura, Detect Opposition

170
27
6
4
2
1
0
--
--
--


15th
Psion 5 / Thrallherd 10
Factotum 11 / Psion 1 / Marshal 1 / Incarnate 2

+11

+11

+10

+15
Twofold Master, Chakra Bind (crown)
Weapon Finesse
170
27
6
4
3
2
1
--
--
--


16th
Psion 6 / Thrallherd 10
Factotum 11 / Psion 1 / Marshal 1 / Incarnate 2 / Warblade 1

+12

+13

+10

+15
Battle Clarity (reflex saves), Weapon Aptitude

195
28
6
4
3
2
1
3
3
1


17th
Psion 7 / Thrallherd 10
Factotum 11 / Psion 1 / Marshal 1 / Incarnate 2 / Warblade 1 / Warshaper 1

+13

+15

+10

+16
Morphic Immunities, Morphic Weapons

221
30
6
4
3
2
1
3
3
1


18th
Psion 8 / Thrallherd 10
Factotum 11 / Psion 1 / Marshal 1 / Incarnate 2 / Warblade 1 / Warshaper 2

+14

+16

+11

+17
Morphic Body
Steady Concentration
250
31
6
4
3
2
1
3
3
1


19th
Psion 9 / Thrallherd 10
Factotum 11 / Psion 1 / Marshal 1 / Incarnate 2 / Warblade 1 / Warshaper 3

+15

+16

+11

+18
Bonus Feat, Morphic Reach
Instant Clarity
280
33
6
4
3
2
1
3
3
1


20th
Psion 10 / Thrallherd 10
Factotum 11 / Psion 1 / Marshal 1 / Incarnate 2 / Warblade 1 / Warshaper 4

+16

+17

+11

+18
Morphic Healing

311
34
6
4
3
2
1
3
3
1

* The Telepathy ACF allows a Psion with the Telepath discipline to substitute his fifth level Bonus Feat for the Telepathy feature.


Comments welcome! Feat suggestions also!

[thethird]

First of all let's look at what is set:

Psion (Telepath) 5 / Thrallherd 10

This is a rather active build with low bab and good will, so something with better bab and good fort or reflex would be great. Specially if it is a rather passive base class. This is also int based so int sinergy would be recommended.

Warblade and Factotum fit the bill, factotum being the sneakiest of the two, so factotum is probably the way to go (at least at the beginning). One of the most interesting (for a spellcasting-manifesting characters is the factotum ability to ignore spell resistance and damage resistance of a target. As such we want at least 11 levels of it. I would still recommend a level of warblade, to get all the concentration to save counters and the hunter sense maneuvers (your kitty has now scent). Two levels of psion would be greatly recommended since that way we can get back the lost manifester levels from thrallherd.

We have

Telepath 5 / Thrallherd 10
Factotum 5 / Telepath +1 / Factotum +6 / Warblade 1 / Something 1 / Psion 1

One of the most fun prcs for shapechangers is warshapper (which you meet the prerequisites for a long time ago. You probably want 4 levels to get the fun and cool stuff. And I now you mentioned that magic of incarnum is quite obvious but there are many many incarnum tricks that work well with psionics and some of the incarnate melds would really help you, and your magic items are already going to be giving you out in cat form:

I would add two levels of incarnate for:

charming veil (essentia invested)
planar ward
psion's eyes (bound to the brow)

This increases the dcs of your powers by 2, allows you to use mind link at will (to communicate with your thralls) and protects you against a pletora of mental effects. The most evident thing of you not being normal only manifests when you actually manifest powers (so it would have been apparent on the first place) and the other one is a third eye on your brow.

Summing up:

Telepath 10 / Thrallherd 10 // Factotum 11 / Telepath 2 / Incarnate 2 / Warblade 1 / Warshaper 4

You will want the recharge trick

The Recharge Trick uses Midnight Augmentation, Linked Power and Metapower to manifest Bestow Power (linked to a 1st level power) with a lower power point cost than power points bestowed by Bestow Power. This allows your psychic to do his thing, all day long.
Feats: Midnight Augmentation, Linked Power, Metapower, Psicrystal Containment
Powers: Bestow Power, a first level power (Here I use Synchronicity)

Method:
1. Focus yourself and your Psicrystal

2. You choose Synchronicity to be effected by Midnight Augmentation, investing one essentia

3. Expend your Psychic Focus to manifest a Synchronicity (which you have chosen to permanently join Linked Power to by Metapower)

4. Expend your Psicrystal's Psychic Focus to manifest Synchronicity, linked to Bestow Power (Costs reduced by Midnight Augmentation for -1, and Metapower for -2, reducing the cost of the Synchronicity/Bestow Power combo to 1 PP)

5. Refocus yourself and your Psicrystal (Doable in one round, if you choose Synchronicity as your 1st level power)

6. Repeat 3-6

[Red Fel]

First of all let's look at what is set:

Psion (Telepath) 5 / Thrallherd 10

This is a rather active build with low bab and good will, so something with better bab and good fort or reflex would be great. Specially if it is a rather passive base class. This is also int based so int sinergy would be recommended.

Warblade and Factotum fit the bill, factotum being the sneakiest of the two, so factotum is probably the way to go (at least at the beginning). One of the most interesting (for a spellcasting-manifesting characters is the factotum ability to ignore spell resistance and damage resistance of a target. As such we want at least 11 levels of it. I would still recommend a level of warblade, to get all the concentration to save counters and the hunter sense maneuvers (your kitty has now scent). Two levels of psion would be greatly recommended since that way we can get back the lost manifester levels from thrallherd.

Totally agree. Psion is a good active side, and Warblade and Factotum provide good synergies. I agree that Factotum abilities are sweet and raise no alarms, and the Warblade Concentration-counters are glorious. Two concerns about Warblade, however: First, when in ittybittykittyform, a Tibbit's physical stats are pretty much rubbish; great for dodging, not fighting. So using Warblade counters would be nice, but using Warblade strikes would be a bit of a waste. Second, Tibbits in ittybittykittyform already get Scent; the Tiger Claw ability would be nice if I also wanted Scent in non-kitty form, but I don't think it's necessary, particularly when I can use Mindsight to basically include a redundant system.

I agree, however, there's use for a dip.


We have

Telepath 5 / Thrallherd 10
Factotum 5 / Telepath +1 / Factotum +6 / Warblade 1 / Something 1 / Psion 1

I like it.


One of the most fun prcs for shapechangers is warshapper (which you meet the prerequisites for a long time ago. You probably want 4 levels to get the fun and cool stuff. And I now you mentioned that magic of incarnum is quite obvious but there are many many incarnum tricks that work well with psionics and some of the incarnate melds would really help you, and your magic items are already going to be giving you out in cat form:

Hmm... Warshaper. Admittedly, it seems designed around a more physically-offensive chassis. But it has some interesting potential. And definitely, the fast healing, crit immunity, and stat bonus to offset being tiny are some pretty big plusses.

That said, I'm actually eyeing Warshaper for one of the thralls in the build. (I wasn't originally, but I am now.) I'll keep it in mind, though.


I would add two levels of incarnate for:

charming veil (essentia invested)
planar ward
psion's eyes (bound to the brow)

This increases the dcs of your powers by 2, allows you to use mind link at will (to communicate with your thralls) and protects you against a pletora of mental effects. The most evident thing of you not being normal only manifests when you actually manifest powers (so it would have been apparent on the first place) and the other one is a third eye on your brow.

Technically, you can do a Concentration check to suppress manifestations. But a cat with a little glowing ribbon around its neck isn't that unusual. (On the other hand, third eye? Kind of weird.) But they do boost my DCs, which is a very good point, and I can't make use of gear in ittybittykittyform. So point taken.


Summing up:

Telepath 10 / Thrallherd 10 // Factotum 11 / Telepath 2 / Incarnate 2 / Warblade 1 / Warshaper 4

You will want the recharge trick

I keep reading this recharge trick. I think it would get books thrown at me. Still, I do verily dig it.

So let me see if I understand how this build plays. Psion abilities are active, brainsploding people for fun and profit. Thrallherd for minions. Factotum to burn IP for quick bursts of awesome. Incarnate for soulmelds that boost my DCs. Warblade for counters and a stance. And Warshaper for passive boosts to stats and crit immunity, and natural weapons in a pinch. Is that about right?

[thethird]

Yeas, that's the idea.

[Red Fel]

Yeas, that's the idea.

I can dig it. Warshaper does create some redundancies with one of my thrall ideas (spoiler alert, it's a Shifter), but it does fit nicely in the build, I must say.

Any other suggestions?

[Vhaidara]

Actually, your bad physical stats mean Warblade can be even better. Weapon Finesse so you can hit, and then remember that all damage dealing maneuvers don't care about your size. So, if you somehow got 9th level maneuvers, you could drop Strike of Perfect Clarity in kitty form and deal 100 extra damage with it.

I second Factotum and Warblade

[Red Fel]

Actually, your bad physical stats mean Warblade can be even better. Weapon Finesse so you can hit, and then remember that all damage dealing maneuvers don't care about your size. So, if you somehow got 9th level maneuvers, you could drop Strike of Perfect Clarity in kitty form and deal 100 extra damage with it.

I second Factotum and Warblade

Excellent points, but for one thing, to use most Warblade maneuvers, I would have to wade into melee. That's a fairly unsafe place for a kitty to be, particularly when you realize that - as a Tiny creature - a Tibbit would have to actually occupy the enemy's space in order to be in melee range. That's fine if you take some feats like Underfoot Combatant and Confound the Big Folk, but given that this character's feats would be primarily psionic-based, it would be tricky to survive like that.

The other problem with using a Warblade is that the Psion-side of the gestalt is likely to be the more active one. While that doesn't mean I can't use strikes, it means that any turn I'm using strikes is a turn during which I'm not using powers, and given the structure of my build, powers are likely to be a more effective use of my time.

I did work on a more melee-oriented Tibbit, using those feats, a few assorted fun classes, and a liberal interpretation of "unsheathe your weapon" with regard to Iaijutsu. But that's neither here nor there.

[Vhaidara]

Oh, I understand that. I was just imagining you get to end game and no one has figured out you're the cat, so the cat just walks up to the boss and bats his ear. And sends his head flying halfway across the room.

Also, I would like to make this point to counter the "I have to enter the square". That means you provoke an AoO. Now, you will presumably have teammates and thralls with you. Would an intelligent opponent, in the middle of a fight, take the time to attack someone's kitty?

[Captnq]

What's a tibbit and why should I care?

[Red Fel]

Oh, I understand that. I was just imagining you get to end game and no one has figured out you're the cat, so the cat just walks up to the boss and bats his ear. And sends his head flying halfway across the room.

That is an awesome image and I will treasure it forever.


Also, I would like to make this point to counter the "I have to enter the square". That means you provoke an AoO. Now, you will presumably have teammates and thralls with you. Would an intelligent opponent, in the middle of a fight, take the time to attack someone's kitty?

It depends. Say you're an intelligent baddie - maybe an Evil Outsider, many of those have at least double-digit IQ. Now visualize the scene before you. On your left, a shirtless, hairy half-man, brandishing a battleaxe, foaming at the mouth and swearing in what might be Scottish, despite the pronounced absence of a Scotland. To your right, a construct of some sort, also shirtless but mercifully less hairy, bending at the knees and moving his hands around like some sort of perverse robotic kabuki dancer. Behind you (because you can tell, he thinks he's being so sneaky) some sort of Elf (there are far too many of those) brandishing a pair of daggers which may or may not be dripping with something which may or may not be harmful to Outsiders. On the other side of the room, cringing like the squishy pathetic weakling he is, a fellow bundled thoroughly in bathrobes and wielding what is undoubtedly phenomenal cosmic power sufficient to rend the world asunder twice over.

And in front of you, an adorable kitty-cat walking straight towards you, completely ignoring the rest.

And the kitty has a translucent scarf-thing.

And three eyes.

And it's staring at you.

And you hear a humming in your brain ohmygodthekittyisinmybrainit'sINMYBRAIN.

Tell me, which one most inspires fear?


What's a tibbit

A Tibbit is a race from Dragon Magazine/ Dragon Compendium. It's a Small Monstrous Humanoid with the unique ability to turn into a Tiny Cat for extended periods, because kitty.


and why should I care?

Got me. You're the one who posted in my thread, you tell me.

I should apologize, that was needlessly harsh. (Although I don't appreciate the attitude.)

I pose these theoretical build concepts in part for my own improvement as an optimizer, in part for future use, and in part for the entertainment of myself and others in the forums. If this doesn't entertain you, and you have no interest in that other stuff, fine; if you feel like challenging yourself, you're welcome to it.

[Vhaidara]

None of them inspire fear. They are my friends. Kitty is my friend. I love kitty. I serve kitty.

[Red Fel]

None of them inspire fear. They are my friends. Kitty is my friend. I love kitty. I serve kitty.

Honestly, now I kind of want to build a Tibbit Fearbuild with Bard/Nightmare Spinner/Dread Witch/Sublime Chord using that feat from Savage Species that lets you substitute any noises for a verbal component and Still Spell, and then use Perform (Totally Freaking Adorable) for all of my Bardic Stuff checks. Because having a kitty rolling around on the floor batting at a feather and purring while everyone runs screaming in abject terror now has to be a thing.

[Marthinwurer]

It depends. Say you're an intelligent baddie - maybe an Evil Outsider, many of those have at least double-digit IQ. Now visualize the scene before you. On your left, a shirtless, hairy half-man, brandishing a battleaxe, foaming at the mouth and swearing in what might be Scottish, despite the pronounced absence of a Scotland. To your right, a construct of some sort, also shirtless but mercifully less hairy, bending at the knees and moving his hands around like some sort of perverse robotic kabuki dancer. Behind you (because you can tell, he thinks he's being so sneaky) some sort of Elf (there are far too many of those) brandishing a pair of daggers which may or may not be dripping with something which may or may not be harmful to Outsiders. On the other side of the room, cringing like the squishy pathetic weakling he is, a fellow bundled thoroughly in bathrobes and wielding what is undoubtedly phenomenal cosmic power sufficient to rend the world asunder twice over.

And in front of you, an adorable kitty-cat walking straight towards you, completely ignoring the rest.

And the kitty has a translucent scarf-thing.

And three eyes.

And it's staring at you.

And you hear a humming in your brain ohmygodthekittyisinmybrainit'sINMYBRAIN.

Tell me, which one most inspires fear?


That was... Beautiful.

[Vhaidara]

Honestly, now I kind of want to build a Tibbit Fearbuild with Bard/Nightmare Spinner/Dread Witch/Sublime Chord using that feat from Savage Species that lets you substitute any noises for a verbal component and Still Spell, and then use Perform (Totally Freaking Adorable) for all of my Bardic Stuff checks. Because having a kitty rolling around on the floor batting at a feather and purring while everyone runs screaming in abject terror now has to be a thing.

No, even better. You add in Adoration of the Frightful (Third level Bard Spell). Gives you a 60ft emanation. Everything in that that is shaken, frightened, or panicked must make a Will save or become friendly towards you. Lasts a minute per level, from Dragon Magic.

Oh, and just for knowing the spell you get +1 on all Diplomacy checks.

[Red Fel]

No, even better. You add in Adoration of the Frightful (Third level Bard Spell). Gives you a 60ft emanation. Everything in that that is shaken, frightened, or panicked must make a Will save or become friendly towards you. Lasts a minute per level, from Dragon Magic.

Oh, and just for knowing the spell you get +1 on all Diplomacy checks.

... Oh. Mai. Gao.

Okay, that's definitely a thing that has to happen now. (Alas, it will have to be another thread - this one is in a committed relationship.)

As an aside, I found the feat I was looking for: Surrogate Spellcasting, from Savage Species. (Oh! The alliteration.) Allows you to substitute form-appropriate noises for verbal and gestures for somatic components. Expect kitty to purr and paw at the air when rending reality asunder. Again, alas, another thread.

So, we're going with the Telepath/Thrallherd//Factotum/Incarnate/Warblade/Warshaper idea? Or are there any others?

[Ellowryn]

Thethird, out of curiosity where are charming veil and psion's eye from? Otherwise this is a very evil thread that sounds so much fun, i kinda wanna play it even without gestalting!

[Red Fel]

Thethird, out of curiosity where are charming veil and psion's eye from? Otherwise this is a very evil thread that sounds so much fun, i kinda wanna play it even without gestalting!

Ooh! Ooh! I know this one!

Charming Veil and Psion's Eye are from this web article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a), which also introduces the Soul Manifester, a fantastic Psionics/Incarnum theurge class. In fact, in my non-gestalt build (linked in the OP, although the table is broken) I used Psion, Thrallherd, Incarnate and Soul Manifester.

And jump in if you have any ideas! If this gets too quiet, I'll have to unleash the next thread. :smallamused:

[Vaz]

Soul Eater? Because when said kitten jumps up and down playfully on your arms and licks your face you're suddenly under his thrall (4 legs,a swish of the tail and a lick, that's like 12 negative levels). And if that doesn't work? Tough he'll do it again, and make a Wightocalpyse.

[Vhaidara]

Well, you're probably dumping you physical stats, so you should have a decent Cha. Meaning that a level of Marshal may not be a bad idea.

[Red Fel]

Soul Eater? Because when said kitten jumps up and down playfully on your arms and licks your face you're suddenly under his thrall (4 legs,a swish of the tail and a lick, that's like 12 negative levels). And if that doesn't work? Tough he'll do it again, and make a Wightocalpyse.

Interesting. So you see kitty moving into more of a melee role, then?


Well, you're probably dumping you physical stats, so you should have a decent Cha. Meaning that a level of Marshal may not be a bad idea.

Not necessarily dumping physical, actually. Con is a smart second choice for any primary caster, obviously. Those levels of Warshaper help offset the Str penalties, and a Tibbit's natural +2 Dex becomes +4 in ittybittykittyform.

That said, as I figure, Cha would be fairly helpful. But would an aura be as helpful as one of these other levels?

[Vhaidara]

Well, you have 20 levels of Psionic advancement. Depending on you Cha score and how important skill checks are for your allies, it could be worth trading the one level.

[Red Fel]

Well, you have 20 levels of Psionic advancement. Depending on you Cha score and how important skill checks are for your allies, it could be worth trading the one level.

Okay. Let's take a look at the Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b), then.

Here's my first concern:


Unless otherwise noted, a marshal's aura affects all allies within 60 feet (including himself) who can hear the marshal. An ally must have an Intelligence score of 3 or higher and be able to understand the marshal's language to gain the bonus. A marshal's aura is dismissed if he is dazed, unconscious, stunned, paralyzed, or otherwise unable to be heard or understood by his allies.
On the one hand, the Marshal in question is a Psion with the Telepathy ACF, which grants the Telepathy speech mode. So if this qualifies as a method of speech that can be "heard or understood," problem solved.

On the other hand, the Marshal in question is also a Tibbit, whose only language while in ittybittykittyform is the vaguely-defined Feline language. Which I'm reasonably certain the party will not understand unless they're Catfolk or Rakshasas or something. So there's some issues of confusing RAW there.

Second concern: For a one-level dip in Marshal, I get a single Minor Aura known, and I don't get to switch it out. Now, if I have an all-of-one-kind party, or a party in which a particular type of skill check is lacking, there is some merit to taking, say, Motivate Charisma or Motivate Intelligence. Certainly, Motivate Int will help my Psion, perhaps. But I wonder whether that's really all that helpful to the party, given that, at best, I can motivate one attribute for the entire party.

That said? Motivational fluffy kitty mascot, go!

[Vhaidara]

It's telepathy. Your languages known don't change when you change form. What changes is what languages your vocal cords can produce.

[Red Fel]

It's telepathy. Your languages known don't change when you change form. What changes is what languages your vocal cords can produce.

Hence why it's shaky. If I wanted to be hypertechnical, I'd point to the "hear and understand" portion of Auras, which are basically described as the Marshal haranguing or praising those around him. Technically, you don't hear telepathy. But yeah, I agree that it's a technical issue; chances are a DM will let it fly. (Hmm, fly... Next time, maybe a Tressym...)

Even so, the question then becomes whether the Cha modifier is high enough, and the skills needed enough, to justify taking a level dip for a bonus to a single attribute on checks for the party.

[Vhaidara]

Well, even if you only start with a 14, you can snag a +5 inherent (books or Wish) and a +6 item (kitty collar of Charisma +6). That's a 25, so +7. have people pick up Knowledge Devotion and a rank in every monster knowledge.

[Red Fel]

Well, even if you only start with a 14, you can snag a +5 inherent (books or Wish) and a +6 item (kitty collar of Charisma +6). That's a 25, so +7. have people pick up Knowledge Devotion and a rank in every monster knowledge.

Hmm... Point. Int is fairly valuable as things go. I'd still like to avoid single-level dips if I can. Warblade is understandable, those counters are pretty sweet, but even that one's a stretch.

Right now, this build has Psion, Thrallherd, and Factotum in abundance, with snippets of Warblade, Incarnate and Warshaper. Do you really feel that a dip of Marshal is worthwhile for that single class feature (admittedly, +7 to everything affiliated with one stat is pretty sweet), and if so, what would you drop?

[Vhaidara]

Like I said, if it's worth it (depending on the balance of your group/thralls), I would drop a Telepath level. I know it drops you to ML 19, but the benefits can be Bard-like (also stacking with Bard)

[Red Fel]

Like I said, if it's worth it (depending on the balance of your group/thralls), I would drop a Telepath level. I know it drops you to ML 19, but the benefits can be Bard-like (also stacking with Bard)

Hmm... Level of Telepath... That does violate one of the cardinal commandments ("Thou shalt not sacrifice caster manifester level"), but you make a good point.

And anyway, I'll have a flipping army. Hmm. Valid.