Efficient Quiver

[TheNervyOne]

This appears to be a typical arrow container capable of holding about 20 arrows. It has three distinct portions, each with a nondimensional space allowing it to store far more than would normally be possible.

The first and smallest one can contain up to 60 objects of the same general size and shape as an arrow. The second slightly longer compartment holds up to 18 objects of the same general size and shape As a javelin. The third and longest portion of the case contains as many as 6 objects of the same general size and shape as a bow (spears, staffs, or the like). Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can quickly produce any item she wishes that is within the quiver, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard. The efficient quiver weighs the same no matter what's placed inside it.

Do you have to put something in there the same size as those things? For example if I wanted to instead of putting 18 Javelins I put Iron Rope and a few water skins could I?

[NoACWarrior]

Do you have to put something in there the same size as those things? For example if I wanted to instead of putting 18 Javelins I put Iron Rope and a few water skins could I?

This is one of those "Ask your DM" questions.

But so long as the water skin is around the same girth as a bow (which it is), then it probably could be placed in the EQ. The same goes for the rope. Mind any further restrictions to weight that EQ has based on the book you are getting it from (EQ from MiC I think doesn't have any).

The main question is why you are doing such a thing when a HHH is good enough for adventuring gear and the EQ is only normally used for weapons so that you can use quick draw with it for a free action draw (or using the traditional move while drawing treating the EQ as a scabbard / weapon holster).

[torrasque666]

Do you have to put something in there the same size as those things? For example if I wanted to instead of putting 18 Javelins I put Iron Rope and a few water skins could I?

I believe, from that description at least, that you would in fact need to place the 18 javelins in there, as the description implies that the items can be produced by the owner( in a "I produced the watch from my pocket" type deal). The gimmick of the EQ appears to be that it is always the same weight, whether the items are made out of stone or wood.

[NoACWarrior]

I believe, from that description at least, that you would in fact need to place the 18 javelins in there, as the description implies that the items can be produced by the owner( in a "I produced the watch from my pocket" type deal). The gimmick of the EQ appears to be that it is always the same weight, whether the items are made out of stone or wood.

You could always get a water container in the same shape as a javelin ;)

But again, with varying allowable shapes ask the DM.

And again I ask the question, why do you want to use a EQ instead of a HH.

[TheNervyOne]

Because it is really impossible to wear both of them at once. The Haversack Bag would be worn on the back, like a backpack. The quiver as well is worn on the back. You cannot have both there.

Also the quickdraw feature gives some handy benifits that Haversack does not

It says general size and shape. So I am talking to my DM about using weight and what would fit that, such as packs of rations are small .5lbs objects and should be able to fit in there one on top of the other. Or the waterskin's jug fit in there if dropped down. Or possibly a potion for a quick draw heal restore.

[Socratov]

Because it is really impossible to wear both of them at once. The Haversack Bag would be worn on the back, like a backpack. The quiver as well is worn on the back. You cannot have both there.

Also the quickdraw feature gives some handy benifits that Haversack does not

It says general size and shape. So I am talking to my DM about using weight and what would fit that, such as packs of rations are small .5lbs objects and should be able to fit in there one on top of the other. Or the waterskin's jug fit in there if dropped down. Or possibly a potion for a quick draw heal restore.

You could ask your DM if you would be allowed to wear it on your leg instead of your back. It's not unheard of to have a quiver strapped to your leg instead of your back, and if you make it Ehlonna's Quiver it's already established as being magic, so... No harm done... right?

[Andezzar]

Because it is really impossible to wear both of them at once. The Haversack Bag would be worn on the back, like a backpack. The quiver as well is worn on the back. You cannot have both there.RAW disagrees on that. Both are slotless items. So you can indeed use both at the same time. Additionally quivers (http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5444/quiver2.jpg) are not always worn on the back.


Also the quickdraw feature gives some handy benifits that Haversack does notWhat quickdraw feature are you referring to? The item does nothing a normal quiver/scabbard would not do except for a higher storage capacity. The Handy Haversack on the other hand does have a nifty feature:
When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains. Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does.

[OverdrivePrime]

My ranger uses both and simply has his quiver strapped to the side of his haversack for easy reach. There's no reason not to take advantage of both.

[TheNervyOne]

Cost is another reason. 3,800 is much more expensive then a 1,800.

But alright, I was just curious because buying one and using the extra slot since my character will not be using a Javelin for something effective, otherwise its basically a wasted space.

[drack]

"The first and smallest one can contain up to 60 objects of the same general size and shape as an arrow"
"of the same general size and shape As a javelin"
"objects of the same general size and shape as a bow"
As long as it's a long stiff object of similar length/thickness it should work. If you're storing waterskins that probably won't. You can always ask your GM, but why not just hang them from a belt, or the strap of the thing? =p

[Andezzar]

You can always ask your GM, but why not just hang them from a belt, or the strap of the thing? =pBecause water is heavy. Water stored in the quiver or haversack is not.

[drack]

I suppose, but I wouldn't think you could fit too many...

[NoACWarrior]

RAW disagrees on that. Both are slotless items. So you can indeed use both at the same time. Additionally quivers (http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5444/quiver2.jpg) are not always worn on the back.

What quickdraw feature are you referring to? The item does nothing a normal quiver/scabbard would not do except for a higher storage capacity. The Handy Haversack on the other hand does have a nifty feature:

A scabbard requires a move action to draw from unless you have the QD feat, which makes it a free action. A quiver is normally free to draw from if you are drawing things like arrows or javis for iterative attacks. Also you can draw specific things out of an EQ without an increase in action effort - like slaying arrows, or a specific bow / javi.

The HH/HHH doesn't let you normally use QD from it due to the specific magical ability. Sure its helpful when you need a specific item, but it costs you a move action instead of a free action.

I agree with you that both can be used - and both should be used if you want to EQ's neat abilities.



Cost is another reason. 3,800 is much more expensive then a 1,800.

But alright, I was just curious because buying one and using the extra slot since my character will not be using a Javelin for something effective, otherwise its basically a wasted space.

A HH/HHH costs 2,000 while a EQ/QE costs 1,800. Unless you mean that buying both is redundant for you? If thats the case, get the HH/HHH first, the quick draw feature is good for classes that use iterative attacks, or if you are a wand / rod switcher who just throws the wands and rods on the floor when retrieving different ones.

[Andezzar]

A scabbard requires a move action to draw from unless you have the QD feat, which makes it a free action.Not quite. While quick draw does make drawing a weapon a free action, only if you have BAB +0 is drawing a weapon a move action. As soon as you have BAB +1 you can draw your weapon as a free action combined with a regular move.


A quiver is normally free to draw from if you are drawing things like arrows or javis for iterative attacks. Also you can draw specific things out of an EQ without an increase in action effort - like slaying arrows, or a specific bow / javi.This is only true for ammunition. Weapons, whether thrown or otherwise, cannot be draw without the normal drawing rules (see above).


The HH/HHH doesn't let you normally use QD from it due to the specific magical ability. Sure its helpful when you need a specific item, but it costs you a move action instead of a free action.The efficient quiver does not let you use quick draw either.

[Qwertystop]

Hm. Maybe store water in lots of vials (roughly arrow-size and shape)?

[NoACWarrior]

Not quite. While quick draw does make drawing a weapon a free action, only if you have BAB +0 is drawing a weapon a move action. As soon as you have BAB +1 you can draw your weapon as a free action combined with a regular move.

This is only true for ammunition. Weapons, whether thrown or otherwise, cannot be draw without the normal drawing rules (see above).

The efficient quiver does not let you use quick draw either.

Because this spawned a question I think I need to do a little more research into what the OP wants. At times I get overly excited with concepts and blurt out totally illegal things which cannot be used in that way. Thanks for being the sanity check Andezzar. I'll work to figure out exactly what happens with either an EQ or HH/HHH.

OK so an EQ is


This appears to be a typical arrow container capable of holding about twenty arrows. It has three distinct portions, each with a nondimensional space allowing it to store far more than would normally be possible. The first and smallest one can contain up to sixty objects of the same general size and shape as an arrow. The second slightly longer compartment holds up to eighteen objects of the same general size and shape as a javelin. The third and longest portion of the case contains as many as six objects of the same general size and shape as a bow (spears, staffs, or the like). Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can produce any item she wishes, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard. The efficient quiver weighs the same no matter what’s placed inside it.


And a HH/HHH is


A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary. It is constructed of finely tanned leather, and the straps have brass hardware and buckles. It has two side pouches, each of which appears large enough to hold about a quart of material. In fact, each is like a bag of holding and can actually hold material of as much as 2 cubic feet in volume or 20 pounds in weight. The large central portion of the pack can contain up to 8 cubic feet or 80 pounds of material. Even when so filled, the backpack always weighs only 5 pounds.

While such storage is useful enough, the pack has an even greater power in addition. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains. Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does.


And quick draw is


You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).


And lastly rules on drawing weapons as enhanced from rules compendium


If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can combine this action with moving your speed. Drawing a weapon applies to any weaponlike item, such as a wand, rod, or staff, within easy reach. An item that is stored or out of easy reach must be retrieved as a stored item. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it normally takes to draw one. Wands are light, and rods are one-handed.


So the OP will have quick draw. The question is can she skip the HH in favor of the EQ because its cheaper. We need to a) show which one is able to work with quick draw, b) analyze if the EQ can do what the HH does (and vice versa), and c) see if the EQ can indeed hold non-combat items (such as wands, potions, and waterskins).

a)(HH) The HH items are "stored" and the difference between retrieving a stored item from an HH and a normal bag is that you provoke AoO from a normal bag, where as you don't provoke and AoO from the HH. Further more the drawing rules from rules compendium states that retrieving stored items (regardless if its a sword or not) uses storing rules, not drawing rules. This means that quick draw doesn't work with a HH.

a)(EQ) The EQ items are treated as if in a quiver or scabbard, meaning regular drawing rules apply. Since the drawing rules apply, you could draw any weapon or weaponlike item as normal (either for free while moving your speed when you have a BAB or +1 or higher, or with a move action which doesn't provoke AoO). Quick draw's restriction is that it only works on weapons and by RAW only affects weapons held within a scabbard or quiver / other convenient accessible storage medium. Quick draw by RAW will only work on weapons stored in the EQ including thrown (which lets you throw as many weapons as your amount of iterative attacks). You would still need to spend a move action or combine a draw while moving your speed to draw anything else including weaponlike items.

b) The EQ allows items to be treated as if easily accessible, making them subject to the drawing rules, but also have a limitation which states that items must be of the same general size and shape as the pouches require / can accept, this means that if an item isn't of the same approximate length width and girth, the item cannot be placed in that particular EQ's pouch. Regardless of contents, an EQ weighs the same. The HH allows any item which fits through the opening and into the extra dimensional space which is lower in weight than the available weight limit on the particular pouches to be treated as retrievable from a stored bag without an AoO using the same move action requirement. Regardless of contents, so long as items fit in each pouch and the load limit for each pouch is not exceeded, a HH weighs the same. The HH is not the same as the EQ. One is for stored items, the other is for drawn items, with the EQ having severe restrictions on what is allowed in it but having no limits other than numbers for its weight.

c) So long as the non-combat items are of the same approximate length width and girth as each particular pouch item requirement, it can go into the pouch of the EQ. Normal sized arrows are around 30 inches long, with small being around 18 inches and tiny being around 8-12 inches. With that said, the first compartment of the EQ specifies that it accepts anything which is the same general size and shape as an arrow (which we can assume by RAW means any sized arrows which fit in the legal size categories). This would include bolts, wands, and rods but not normally staves. The second compartment of the EQ accepts anything which is the same general size and shape of a javelin which would include shortspears. The third and final compartment of the EQ accepts anything which is the same general size and shape of a bow (set and unset we must assume) which includes all longbows (composite and non-composite) all short bows, and specifically including spears (assuming "all" spears including longspears) and staves and other weapons which resemble spears and staves (a few too many to name, but not any swords or axes or flails or rope based weapons).

With that said, unless your water skins are shaped like an arrow, a javelin or shortspear, a longbow, a shortbow, a staff, a spear, or other things which are like staves and spears (not swords, axes, flails, rope weapons, slings, daggers, or other bladed weapons which are not polearms) it will simply not go into an EQ. Same thing with a potion. Your wands are fine.

So what now. Rectify the situation - go with the alternate tile potions from complete arcane and get them slender cylindrical and the same size as an arrow of a particular size (these will not likely cost anymore than a potion). For your water skins, it would be hilarious to see a emptied out quarterstaff for you to drink out of, but if the DM lets you go ahead and buy an unusual one for 3 or 4 times the price - maybe even having to pay an additional surcharge on top of that to find a willing crafter.


And thanks go to Andezzar who encouraged me to post a more comprehensive answer for the HH / EQ dilemma here.