warlock vs binder at wills

[CyberThread]

Which class do you prefer for at will abilities

[NoACWarrior]

I prefer the binder at will abilities - especially the continuous ones. Warlock doesn't get powers to give them pure immunity, heal infinity, blindsight, truesight, weapon specialization, TWF, pounce, or a few other class restricted powers. Not to mention that a binder can expell vestige to get different powers when the challenges arise. The Warlock gets an honorable mention for at will invis, flight, dispel magic, and baleful polymorph (unless you are using BP defensively to make your fighter a dragon, not that its legal but w/e its polymorph madness).

If you are talking about pure damage - without the summon monster vestige, warlock is better for damage layout to a single target.

If you are talking about what each class has to do to get their powers, warlock hands down (some DMs will restrict what vestiges you can bind by the collected symbols in their campaign and you have to prepare vestiges every day, so its kinda meh in survival / low sleep situations)

[Vhaidara]

I'm a warlock guy at heart, but Binder is one of my favorites. Imo, Warlock is a better blaster, Binder has better utility.

[Red Fel]

I'm a warlock guy at heart, but Binder is one of my favorites. Imo, Warlock is a better blaster, Binder has better utility.

This, in a nutshell. Part of the problem with Warlock is that, in an attempt to prevent its at-will abilities from being overpowering, WotC decided to give the Warlock very few of them. What's more, while you can switch out invocations when you get new ones, you're otherwise stuck with the ones you've selected. So while some are pretty nice, and relatively potent, you're dealing with a short, fixed list.

By contrast, Binder lets you switch them out as you like. The fluff and flavor of the class is a kick, the powers are varied and useful, and it really enables you to be a great switch-hitter for the party. Be a Monk one day, a Paladin the next, and so forth; or just bind Naberius and laugh off ability damage. The Binder wins hands-down both in terms of utility and versatility.

[LentilNinja]

Whatever build I try to make, I always end up multiclassing Warlock. I feel the invocation utilities are normally great, and I just love EB essences. Tried to make a Rogue and he ended up multiclassing too.

[Dr. Azkur]

Both! Everyone knows of the crazy synergies you can get.

But if I were forced to choose, I'd pick Warlock. Dealing damage is just more kind of my play style.



If you are talking about what each class has to do to get their powers, warlock hands down (some DMs will restrict what vestiges you can bind by the collected symbols in their campaign and you have to prepare vestiges every day, so its kinda meh in survival / low sleep situations)
Emphasis mine.

What do you mean by that? You don't have to rest to bind a vestige and it only takes a minute...

[NoACWarrior]

What do you mean by that? You don't have to rest to bind a vestige and it only takes a minute...

It just requires downtime - if you are running survival / constant warfare you could try to get the 1 min in, but the DM may just constantly interrupt you with "do this" queries. I admit its not as bad as normal spell casting, or even meldshaping (if you change your soulmelds), and even psionics (you do need to meditate right?). But its still bad when you don't normally have a minute to yourself.

This however doesn't always happen - its just in these very specific cases where you don't have time to waste 1 min because you are hunting down orcs which have your two hobbit friends.

[Chronos]

If you can never get in even a single minute of downtime in the entire day, then everyone but a warforged crusader is screwed. That's hardly a fair way to judge any class.

[Eldest]

If you can never get in even a single minute of downtime in the entire day, then everyone but a warforged crusader is screwed. That's hardly a fair way to judge any class.

Eh, a psion with a recharge trick and temporal acceleration would work. But that's pretty far up there.

[Story]

An Evolved Necropolitan Druid could probably do all right. They wouldn't get spells but they could still Wildshape all day.

[ChocoSuisse]

The Binder wins hands-down both in terms of utility and versatility.

I disagree : Deceive Item at lvl 4 grants you the ability to use any wand or low level scroll with no chance of failure, that's pretty good in terms of utility and versatility!

Also, I love taking Baleful Utterance as a first invocation : endless possibilities!

[NoACWarrior]

I disagree : Deceive Item at lvl 4 grants you the ability to use any wand or low level scroll with no chance of failure, that's pretty good in terms of utility and versatility!

Also, I love taking Baleful Utterance as a first invocation : endless possibilities!

While wands are great - they only last until lvl 4, scrolls can be found at higher levels but are much "rarer" unless you have a nice DM or the wizard wants to spend an entire day scribing a scroll for you.
What we were referring to was, with DM permission, the sheer amount of things a binder can actually do in a single day via binding and expelling then rebinding.

Deceive Item is one of the best abilities warlocks get (at lvl 4 as well) but UMD caps out somewhere around 10-12th level when you can use most general things with that high of a score.

I'm not trying to poopoo your party, but binders can get things that warlocks just can't or that the warlocks need to spend lots of gold on.
It may be that warlocks can get an item for 75% of the normal use activated cost, but when you factor in that the binder doesn't need to buy as many items as the warlock to be just as effective, it becomes a wealth management battle.

That said, warlocks will be my favorite if I want single target blasting with some utility (invocations included) and some major emergency shenanigans (UMD deceive item high level scroll, or dual wand nuking / mass resurgence / mass snakes swiftness).

If I wanted flavor, more versatility, and the same 24 hour usage I'll grab binder.

If the DM was crazy to let me gestalt I might choose both at the same time. I'll make sure not to use the summon alien vestige if I were allowed to gestalt.

[Socratov]

While wands are great - they only last until lvl 4, scrolls can be found at higher levels but are much "rarer" unless you have a nice DM or the wizard wants to spend an entire day scribing a scroll for you.
What we were referring to was, with DM permission, the sheer amount of things a binder can actually do in a single day via binding and expelling then rebinding.

Deceive Item is one of the best abilities warlocks get (at lvl 4 as well) but UMD caps out somewhere around 10-12th level when you can use most general things with that high of a score.

I'm not trying to poopoo your party, but binders can get things that warlocks just can't or that the warlocks need to spend lots of gold on.
It may be that warlocks can get an item for 75% of the normal use activated cost, but when you factor in that the binder doesn't need to buy as many items as the warlock to be just as effective, it becomes a wealth management battle.

That said, warlocks will be my favorite if I want single target blasting with some utility (invocations included) and some major emergency shenanigans (UMD deceive item high level scroll, or dual wand nuking / mass resurgence / mass snakes swiftness).

If I wanted flavor, more versatility, and the same 24 hour usage I'll grab binder.

If the DM was crazy to let me gestalt I might choose both at the same time. I'll make sure not to use the summon alien vestige if I were allowed to gestalt.

I see where you are coming from but I disagree (a bit). I agree that in class (specifically with the online vestiges) the binder gets more goodies. At worst he is a mumbling case of MPD, at best he's like Harry Dresden with Lasciel. One thing though, they need to bind their vestige. This is a point of social stigma and needs to be done alone (this is important and often forgotten).

The warlock has an equal social stigma, but gets all of his goodies innately. This opens up a neat solution: disguise (class skill). Also, when it comes to items the warlock is only second to the Artificer (and with a minor build tweak even better). Yes this means money becomes your power and the binder can do without. On the other hand, a warlock doesn't exactly need abilities. A warlock is the only class that can make do with an array of 3's (the absolute minimum of possible stats). This to me proves that a warlock's toybox ban always be used and can always have a use (unless you lose your legs and only have spiderwalk, but who uses dismemberment rules anyway?). Then there is the fact that you don't need to refresh. At worst the warlock is a duracell brand coffee addict (to stay awake), at best you are a robotic Iron Man. You guys are right though, the warlock's toys are third grade at best, that's why I made a thread to upgrade them (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?340272-new-toys-for-the-Warlock!) so the Warlock can join the cool kids into being awesome all time, every time, without breaking the campaign (we have wizards, clerics, StP Erudites, druids, artificers etc. for that). If guys have the time you are welcome to help

[Story]

One thing though, they need to bind their vestige. This is a point of social stigma and needs to be done alone (this is important and often forgotten).


Yeah but for normal adventurers, it's trivial to get 2 minutes alone each day.

Anyway IIRC the default fluff is that the only ones who really care about Binders are some of the churches, and that's just because vestiges are outside of the Gods' control. The average person doesn't know enough about relgion to even understand the difference and Wizards and Archivists tend to be the "power at all costs" types. And it's not like binding a vestige is even evil and it barely has negative consequences.

[Socratov]

Yeah but for normal adventurers, it's trivial to get 2 minutes alone each day.

Anyway IIRC the default fluff is that the only ones who really care about Binders are some of the churches, and that's just because vestiges are outside of the Gods' control. The average person doesn't know enough about relgion to even understand the difference and Wizards and Archivists tend to be the "power at all costs" types. And it's not like binding a vestige is even evil and it barely has negative consequences.

True, but my point is more that in between battles or while traveling getting a couple of minutes alone is much harder. Especially if you are hiding or on the run. but this is a minor nitpick.

[Chronos]

Sure, warlocks get Deceive Item, but binders get Karsus, with much the same effect (able to use wands without a roll).

[ChocoSuisse]

Sure, warlocks get Deceive Item, but binders get Karsus, with much the same effect (able to use wands without a roll).
Not really the same effect.
-Can't use scrolls
-Limited to Wizard spell list
Also, if you didn't bind Karsus, you can't do it on the fly easily.

But yes, it's close enough.

[Story]

True, but my point is more that in between battles or while traveling getting a couple of minutes alone is much harder. Especially if you are hiding or on the run. but this is a minor nitpick.

I've never seen this happen. And if you can't get two minutes alone, nearly any class is screwed.

[Red Fel]

I've never seen this happen. And if you can't get two minutes alone, nearly any class is screwed.

There's a difference between the "alone" a Wizard needs to memorize spells, or a Cleric needs to pray, or an Incarnate needs to gather Essentia and shape his Christmas lights Soulmelds, and the "alone" a Binder needs to contact That Which Must Not Exist in an act considered at best intolerable by most of the civilized world. One just requires a few minutes of peace, the other might actually require you to hide from your own party.

That said? I'd be surprised if I ever found myself in a campaign where we didn't have that kind of downtime.

[Story]

One just requires a few minutes of peace, the other might actually require you to hide from your own party.
.

You only need to hide from specific types of clerics and paladins. It's not guaranteed that you'll even have one in the party.


Funnily enough my last campaign we had a Cleric of Pelor and Anima Mage in the same party. I was actually open about it, but the cleric tolerated it since we were trying to prevent the end of the world. And besides, the cleric behaved more evily than me despite nominally good alignment.

[CyberThread]

Seems we have optimizers of rare and very strict situations today.

[Rijan_Sai]

There's a difference between the "alone" a Wizard needs to memorize spells, or a Cleric needs to pray, or an Incarnate needs to gather Essentia and shape his Christmas lights Soulmelds, and the "alone" a Binder needs to contact That Which Must Not Exist in an act considered at best intolerable by most of the civilized world. One just requires a few minutes of peace, the other might actually require you to hide from your own party.

That said? I'd be surprised if I ever found myself in a campaign where we didn't have that kind of downtime.

While it is not (or at least should never be...) done "on camera," do(es) your character(s) never use the restroom/bathe? If you can't find 1 minute, 12 seconds - 2 minutes, 6 seconds* alone to bind at least at the start of the day, you must have the most evil DM ever...or one that just flat-out hates Binders...

(Yes, it could be harder to do so in "on-the-run" situations, but "I'm going out to gather firewood" could still be a valid excuse to get away from the party for a couple of minutes.)

*1 minute to draw the seal, 1 full-round action to summon the vestige, and 1 additional minute for the binding check (or 1 additional full-round action at a penalty.)

[NoACWarrior]

Seems we have optimizers of rare and very strict situations today.

yeah, I feel partly at fault for citing battlefield action economy :/
In either case, if I were to play in a campaign, it would most likely be Warlock instead of binder (binder has a lot of RP required to make it work and I'm not the best RPer).

I just want to use my double wands someday... is that too hard to ask?

Also on the side note, binder has some of the most ridiculous gold less abilities that turn on by 5th level that I am usually not OK with as a DM (unless I decided that the party needed it). Warlock, not so much - damage can only get you so far, and offensive invocations and personal buffs don't always help the party with situations.

[CyberThread]

Also on the side note, binder has some of the most ridiculous gold less abilities that turn on by 5th level that I am usually not OK with as a DM (unless I decided that the party needed it). Warlock, not so much - damage can only get you so far, and offensive invocations and personal buffs don't always help the party with situations.

Like what for you?

[NoACWarrior]

OoC healing, no limit, no alignment restrictions, no special feats / ability combos needed
Infinite Turning
Drain / damage healing without expending resources
Fear Immunity
Superior Scouting
Party face take 10 (no instances where you meet the king and roll a 1 and claim his mother is a goblin)

Thats just a few of the fun powers that binders get over the warlock's abilities.

[Flickerdart]

The best thing about the binder isn't that it's better than the warlock (it's not, at a lot of things) but that it's good enough at basically anything it wants to be, within a day's notice. Warlocks get so few opportunities for new invocations, but a binder is a stick of chalk away from changing the way his entire build functions. As a result, they need to jack up the few things they can do, because those things are all they've got to go on, and then DMs get antsy because you have this guy who's doing quite good damage and basically never misses. Meanwhile, the binder can tailor his setup to the party's goals, and it doesn't matter that he's not the best at whatever is happening because he's good enough at that exact thing that he doesn't need the benefit of extra punch.

The best parallel is probably a Swiss army knife vs scissors. The Swiss army knife's scissors aren't very good, but they're often good enough and don't put any burden on you when you're facing a task that cutting won't solve.

[A Tad Insane]

Binders have at will summon monster. Sure, the Cthulhu headed lion will get more than a few strange looks, but if we're just discussing at wills, Cthulhu headed lion. Although being stuck in a dungeon with your party will force you to reveal why you can do what you do as much as you do, but only four churches are involved with the seph-whatchamacallit because all the others really didn't care enough, except the dwarf and elf gods, who do it in their own way. Plus a quick spellcraft check will reveal any warlock, who have a bit more universal hate.

[Story]

Although being stuck in a dungeon with your party will force you to reveal why you can do what you do as much as you do,

"It's magic."

[Vaz]

Yeah but for normal adventurers, it's trivial to get 2 minutes alone each day.
Binder; BRB guys, going for a poo...
#2 minutes later...
Binder; Cheers for waiting :)
Party; your voice has gone all gravelly...
Binder; (Naberius Silver tongue, engage) er yh, just cleaned my teeth while i was there buddy boy. Lets bounce! #whistles#

[Socratov]

Binders have at will summon monster. Sure, the Cthulhu headed lion will get more than a few strange looks, but if we're just discussing at wills, Cthulhu headed lion. Although being stuck in a dungeon with your party will force you to reveal why you can do what you do as much as you do, but only four churches are involved with the seph-whatchamacallit because all the others really didn't care enough, except the dwarf and elf gods, who do it in their own way. Plus a quick spellcraft check will reveal any warlock, who have a bit more universal hate.

only if you get access to online vestiges. if not you don't have any summons. the online vestiges are so good that it bumps the Binder up a tier...

[Dr. Azkur]

If your DM is that much of an ass not to ever let you get a minute for yourself, then you know you will be able to make use of the single feat that lets you do it in 6 seconds: Rapid Pact Making.

[Erik Vale]

Power
Level 1-3: Warlock
Level 4-20: Binder
Level 21+: Warlock. [Shadowmaster FTW]

Fluff: Warlock, binder slidding in a nanosec behind. To bad the crunch is worse.

[Urpriest]

OoC healing, no limit, no alignment restrictions, no special feats / ability combos needed
Infinite Turning
Drain / damage healing without expending resources
Fear Immunity
Superior Scouting
Party face take 10 (no instances where you meet the king and roll a 1 and claim his mother is a goblin)

Thats just a few of the fun powers that binders get over the warlock's abilities.

Infinite Turning isn't all that meaningful when it's one attempt at a time, especially at the level you get it. Fear Immunity is something Paladins get at pretty low level, and Remove Fear is a first level spell anyway. And since rolling a 1 on a skill check has no special effect and a party face isn't going to have a negative Cha modifier, it's pretty much only going to make a situation worse if your opponent is already unfriendly, and even that goes away with 1st level ranks.

The healing stuff is more of a playstyle thing, I'll grant, but the others are really just the reason the Binder is Tier 3 and the Warlock is Tier 4. It's still not exactly gamebreaking.

[CyberThread]

Binder; BRB guys, going for a poo...
#2 minutes later...
Binder; Cheers for waiting :)
Party; your voice has gone all gravelly...
Binder; (Naberius Silver tongue, engage) er yh, just cleaned my teeth while i was there buddy boy. Lets bounce! #whistles#



you cleaned your teeth, while you were wiping your butt? No wonder it is gravelly...

[Chronos]

A binder cannot get infinite healing without spending a resource. In order to get the infinite healing, you need to bind Buer. At the level that Buer first becomes available, you can only have one vestige at a time, and Buer does basically nothing besides healing. So you're spending a very big resource: The entirety of your primary class feature. If you want to be able to heal, then you cannot do anything other than healing, all day. Even the Healer doesn't have it that bad. At higher levels, you can get multiple vestiges at once, but you still top out at only four, and spending a quarter of your class features on healing is still a mighty high price to pay.

[NoACWarrior]

A binder cannot get infinite healing without spending a resource. In order to get the infinite healing, you need to bind Buer. At the level that Buer first becomes available, you can only have one vestige at a time, and Buer does basically nothing besides healing. So you're spending a very big resource: The entirety of your primary class feature. If you want to be able to heal, then you cannot do anything other than healing, all day. Even the Healer doesn't have it that bad. At higher levels, you can get multiple vestiges at once, but you still top out at only four, and spending a quarter of your class features on healing is still a mighty high price to pay.

Expel vestige. You have no daily limit on the number of vestiges you can bind per day, just the amount bound at once.

Sure you spend 2 mins to get infinite healing, but those 2 mins are something to wait for. I don't see the warlock getting that with a class feature and spending 0 gold.
But step back the hate on binders, and don't assume I'm a binder fanboy. I'd much rather play a warlock than a binder in a lot of campaign modes. But I'd imagine theres A LOT of things I couldn't do by going Warlock.

[CIDE]

I'd have to agree with everyone's post in their entirety so far except on one key point that's been hitting me in ways I didn't think it'd hit. Like a nagging pet peeve...

Why's everyone keep calling Warlock T4?

[TuggyNE]

I'd have to agree with everyone's post in their entirety so far except on one key point that's been hitting me in ways I didn't think it'd hit. Like a nagging pet peeve...

Why's everyone keep calling Warlock T4?

Because that's how it's listed?

[Socratov]

I'd have to agree with everyone's post in their entirety so far except on one key point that's been hitting me in ways I didn't think it'd hit. Like a nagging pet peeve...

Why's everyone keep calling Warlock T4?

Because JaronK, while compiling his list of Tiers, placed the Warlock there. He later admitted that he didn't entirely like the warlock, nor really saw it's full potential, and that while warlocks can be tier 3 in certain builds, that those builds don't make the Warlock tier 4. That said he did regard the Warlock as being high(est) tier 4, only just under the Warblade which is regarded as the lowest in Tier 3. he also made a distinction between binders with access to online vestiges (T32) and binders without access to online vestiges (T43).

[Story]

he also made a distinction between binders with access to online vestiges (T3) and binders without access to online vestiges (T4).

Actually it was T2 and T3.

[ChocoSuisse]

My problem with the class tier system is that it supposes the PCs are lvl 20.

Well, I've been playing D&D for over 15 years and each time PCs "win the game" around lvl 15.

So, for this kind of games, if you consider that most of the time you're lvl 1-10, the tier list changes a lot.

[Urpriest]

I'd have to agree with everyone's post in their entirety so far except on one key point that's been hitting me in ways I didn't think it'd hit. Like a nagging pet peeve...

Why's everyone keep calling Warlock T4?

History, as others have said. There's a lot of debate about whether Warlocks are Tier 3 or Tier 4. While they have a decent range of abilities, people debate whether that puts them in the same Tier as Rangers and Rogues (able to do several things, but none all that well) or Bards and Beguilers (able to do several things well enough to meaningfully contribute).


My problem with the class tier system is that it supposes the PCs are lvl 20.

No it doesn't. Much of the tier system doesn't even apply at level 20, since that's when Healers and Truenamers get Gate. The Tier system is mostly a classification of how classes get resources, and that's valid as soon as their resource mechanics come online, which in most cases is first level.

[Person_Man]

My preference is for Binder, which has a greater variety of meaningful options (Warlock has a small number of "real" options which 90% of builds use), and the ability to change them out each day, which adds a trememndou amount of flexibility. I'm also a big fan of the "wait 5 rounds" delay mechanic (or any similar delay or ready/use/ready mechanic) because it forces players to mix up their actions during combat, and not spam the same thing every round.



Why's everyone keep calling Warlock T4?

I would argue that the Warlock is correctly ranked at Tier 4 until they reach mid-high levels, and even then they require a high level of game mastery to get up to Tier 3. Warlocks just have very few resources to work with, and have a hard time filling any combat Niche in a meaningful way without lots of optimization. Having "at-will" resources is usually meaningless, unless you happen to be playing in "escape from the bottom of world's largest dungeon" and your DM bans Rope Trick. And even then, the Warlock has fewer resources and can fill fewer Niches then the at-will Binder, Dragonfire Adept, Totemist, Incarnate, Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader, etc.

[Eldest]

My problem with the class tier system is that it supposes the PCs are lvl 20.

Well, I've been playing D&D for over 15 years and each time PCs "win the game" around lvl 15.

So, for this kind of games, if you consider that most of the time you're lvl 1-10, the tier list changes a lot.

It is actually based on level 5-15. I don't recall where that was said, but he did say so somewhere.

[A Tad Insane]

Oh no. I sense a "warlock is not t4" post coming *readies umbrella*

On topic: Even if you can't cthulhu headed lion because your dm doesn't like epic things, nabs alone is the reason why so many builds dip in binder, like hellfire warlock. The binder also has a lot more versatility as a class, with the ability to be build as an amazing scout, one of the best non-spell grappler, easily specced party face, tank, weapon finesser, or blaster that can do comparable, if not exceeding, damage to a low-mid op warlock (at high op, all bets are off (although anima mage))

[CIDE]

Because that's how it's listed?

And JaronK does get corrected...? Ever?


Because JaronK, while compiling his list of Tiers, placed the Warlock there. He later admitted that he didn't entirely like the warlock, nor really saw it's full potential, and that while warlocks can be tier 3 in certain builds, that those builds don't make the Warlock tier 4. That said he did regard the Warlock as being high(est) tier 4, only just under the Warblade which is regarded as the lowest in Tier 3. he also made a distinction between binders with access to online vestiges (T32) and binders without access to online vestiges (T43).

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Even a Warlock 1-20 immediatelly falls into the description of tier 3. Their item crafting is already good enough to already put them into Tier 3 because of all the extra stuff while the rest of their 'build' focuses on the one good thing the Tier 3 description mentions.




History, as others have said. There's a lot of debate about whether Warlocks are Tier 3 or Tier 4. While they have a decent range of abilities, people debate whether that puts them in the same Tier as Rangers and Rogues (able to do several things, but none all that well) or Bards and Beguilers (able to do several things well enough to meaningfully contribute).
.

Except the degree that the Warlock sits above classes like the Ranger or Rogue is huge. Outside of combat it's even more versatile than the ToB classes.



I would argue that the Warlock is correctly ranked at Tier 4 until they reach mid-high levels, and even then they require a high level of game mastery to get up to Tier 3. Warlocks just have very few resources to work with, and have a hard time filling any combat Niche in a meaningful way without lots of optimization. Having "at-will" resources is usually meaningless, unless you happen to be playing in "escape from the bottom of world's largest dungeon" and your DM bans Rope Trick. And even then, the Warlock has fewer resources and can fill fewer Niches then the at-will Binder, Dragonfire Adept, Totemist, Incarnate, Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader, etc.

I'm just not seeing it. Especially when compared to the bolded classes in regards to overall versaility. One of them is literally just a dragon-lock instead of a demon/fae/whatever-lock. Other's schtick is hitting things that I didn't know was really enough for all this (also considering out of combat usefulness since that's just as big). I can kind of understand the swordsage in certain builds but a warblade..? Aside from shenanigans that some people houserule or ban anyway...just not seeing it.


Oh no. I sense a "warlock is not t4" post coming *readies umbrella*



Oh shush. They started it by even bringing up the tier system. :wink:

I'm fine with and completely agree with the above statements about the Binder's performance over the Warlocks even if thematically I love both. Especially with the additional vestiges.

It does not mean I need to agree with them about it's tier placement made initially by a person that didn't even know or like the class.

[Story]

I'm just not seeing it. Especially when compared to the bolded classes in regards to overall versaility. One of them is literally just a dragon-lock instead of a demon/fae/whatever-lock. Other's schtick is hitting things that I didn't know was really enough for all this (also considering out of combat usefulness since that's just as big).


Meldshapers can pick from an entire book of abilities and change them on a daily basis. Same with Binders. A Totemist may be mostly combat focused, but they still get more versatility if they want it.

[Dr. Azkur]

Rule 352, sub article 2b of the forums: Every time the Warlock is the prime subject of a thread, its placement on JaronK's Tier System shall be disputed, or at the very least, so hinted.

Sub article 2c: In case of explicitly treating the matter, it will mandatorily be compared to the Warblade.

[Story]

Isn't the Warblade's placement also disputed?

[Dr. Azkur]

Yes, of course! But we can't make a rule out of that, just the observation.
The Warlock's amount of dispute, however, is thorough enough to be dogmatised.

[CIDE]

Meldshapers can pick from an entire book of abilities and change them on a daily basis. Same with Binders. A Totemist may be mostly combat focused, but they still get more versatility if they want it.

I didn't mention the Meldshaper, though... :eek:

also, as much as I like the fluff on it I never actually played a totemist so I'm limited on that. Based only on builds I've seen where it seems only the optimized ones to me scream T3.


Rule 352, sub article 2b of the forums: Every time the Warlock is the prime subject of a thread, its placement on JaronK's Tier System shall be disputed, or at the very least, so hinted.

Sub article 2c: In case of explicitly treating the matter, it will mandatorily be compared to the Warblade.

I love this.

[Eldest]

I didn't mention the Meldshaper, though... :eek:

also, as much as I like the fluff on it I never actually played a totemist so I'm limited on that. Based only on builds I've seen where it seems only the optimized ones to me scream T3.



I love this.

Totemists.... are meldshapers. Meldshapers are a group of classes that include totemists.

[Chronos]

Quoth NoACWarrior:

Expel vestige. You have no daily limit on the number of vestiges you can bind per day, just the amount bound at once.
You do, however, have a daily limit on Expel Vestige-- Only once per day. Yeah, it helps, but Buer is still a pretty big chunk of your resources.

To be fair, there are other ways of getting infinite healing from a binder. You could, for instance, bind Tenebrous instead of Buer, and then take Sacred Healing (the one from Complete Divine, not PHB2) as a feat. That lets you turn your 1/5 rounds Turn Undead into healing, while still giving you other useful abilities from Tenebrous. You're still spending resources, though, just a feat and a smaller opportunity cost on the vestige.

And please don't think I'm hating on the Binder. I actually think it's a very well-designed class, and would love to play one if I ever found myself in a game that used Tome of Magic.

[Socratov]

Rule 352, sub article 2b of the forums: Every time the Warlock is the prime subject of a thread, its placement on JaronK's Tier System shall be disputed, or at the very least, so hinted.

Sub article 2c: In case of explicitly treating the matter, it will mandatorily be compared to the Warblade.
indeed, which is why I brought it up.

Isn't the Warblade's placement also disputed?
Yes. Heavily when compared to the warblade

You do, however, have a daily limit on Expel Vestige-- Only once per day. Yeah, it helps, but Buer is still a pretty big chunk of your resources.

To be fair, there are other ways of getting infinite healing from a binder. You could, for instance, bind Tenebrous instead of Buer, and then take Sacred Healing (the one from Complete Divine, not PHB2) as a feat. That lets you turn your 1/5 rounds Turn Undead into healing, while still giving you other useful abilities from Tenebrous. You're still spending resources, though, just a feat and a smaller opportunity cost on the vestige.

And please don't think I'm hating on the Binder. I actually think it's a very well-designed class, and would love to play one if I ever found myself in a game that used Tome of Magic.

well, personally I would go for the shadowcaster. That minx looks delicious to play...

[Story]

You do, however, have a daily limit on Expel Vestige-- Only once per day. Yeah, it helps, but Buer is still a pretty big chunk of your resources.


Vestige Phylactery effectively raises that to twice per day.


Anyway, I'm not actually familiar with Shadowcaster, but wasn't it much weaker than intended? I seem to recall the writer himself posting unofficial errata somewhere.

It's a shame, because Black Labyrinth looks really cool.

[WhamBamSam]

My problem with the class tier system is that it supposes the PCs are lvl 20.

Well, I've been playing D&D for over 15 years and each time PCs "win the game" around lvl 15.

So, for this kind of games, if you consider that most of the time you're lvl 1-10, the tier list changes a lot.The tier list is primarily concerned with levels 6-15. I think there was also a project attempting to do separate tier rankings for different level chunks and degrees of optimization a while back that might be worth looking at.

The one thing about the tier list I'd change is that I'd break what is currently High T4/Low T3 area into a separate tier and maybe expand what's left of T3 upwards a bit to cover some of what is now considered low T2 (online vestige Binders, Arcane Disciple Dread Necros/Beguilers, and the like). The reason that the Warlock/Warblade/Swordsage/etc argument keeps coming up is that the line between T3 and T4 as it stands is in such a murky grey area. Moreover, the High T3 types, like Factotums, Bards, Dread Necromancers, and yes, Binders are operating on a pretty clearly distinct level of ability (not bad enough that the classes can't play together, but one tier of difference is supposed to be manageable). Of course, that might just create new grey areas, but I think it'd turn out cleaner overall.

[Lans]

Anyway, I'm not actually familiar with Shadowcaster, but wasn't it much weaker than intended? I seem to recall the writer himself posting unofficial errata somewhere.

It's a shame, because Black Labyrinth looks really cool.

I'm not sure if it was weaker than inteded, but it was weak enough that players compained. I would say its kind of like a race car with 1 gallon of gas until mid- late levels.






I'm just not seeing it. Especially when compared to the bolded classes in regards to overall versaility. One of them is literally just a dragon-lock instead of a demon/fae/whatever-lock. Other's schtick is hitting things that I didn't know was really enough for all this (also considering out of combat usefulness since that's just as big). I can kind of understand the swordsage in certain builds but a warblade..? Aside from shenanigans that some people houserule or ban anyway...just not seeing it.

The DFA is considered low tier 3, I believe with the breath weapon being considered better than the EB, more breath effects+invocations vs invocations, higher skills, saves, and hit die.

Warblade also brings sensory, buffs, skills, defenses and action economy to the table

[CyberThread]

Eh, DFA is considered tier 4 also.

[Chronos]

Dragonfire Adept is better within its niche than Warlock is in its, but it's less flexible outside of its niche. The main points are that DFAs get Entangling Exhalation, they get an area of effect by default, and they can choose to use their first invocation to protect their allies from their area effect, but warlocks don't have to invest in their blasty ability if they don't want to, and get their UMD goodies.

[Eldest]

Vestige Phylactery effectively raises that to twice per day.


Anyway, I'm not actually familiar with Shadowcaster, but wasn't it much weaker than intended? I seem to recall the writer himself posting unofficial errata somewhere.

It's a shame, because Black Labyrinth looks really cool.

It is weaker than intended, here is the creater's fixes. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?184955-Shadowcaster-fixes-by-Mouseferatu)