Wizard Fighter

[Dante Leos]

This is just a theoretical question to mess around with, but would it be possible to make a wizard a better fighter than, well, the Fighter?

[VoxRationis]

At what level? The answer changes dramatically depending on level.
At first level, however, you do get AC 18+Dex for an encounter's length or thereabouts from shield and mage armor. If you do this, you will not get other spells, and you still have to deal with your crappy Hit Die and lack of good weapon proficiencies.
Alter Self can give natural armor bonuses; combine this with the above and you get AC comparable to an armored opponent for free.
Protection from Arrows and Stoneskin can buff your defense considerably. Is there any way to set it so that the former spell gets worn away preferentially, saving your Stoneskin for when you close to melee?
At 11th level, you can start making contingent true strike spells. Combine with Power Attack and you've got reliable extra damage (limited to +10 at first, though, barring a Frenzied Berserker multiclass, which kind of defeats the point). Kind of expensive per attack, though. You'll want to do something to make each attack better.
Now that I think about it, at 11th level, you'd probably be better off with quickened true strike on a single heavy attack.

[dextercorvia]

Yes. So very easily.

[VoxRationis]

People often recommend Polymorph for this sort of thing, and here's my question:
How do you get around the poor BAB and crappy hit points? To my knowledge, polymorph effects don't deal with either.

[Andion Isurand]

Well, summoning the right creatures can do a lot to fill the role of meat shield.

If you want to do the fighting yourself, there are some gish builds that can work for you that can involve prestige classes like Swiftblade and Abjurant Champion.

[Zweisteine]

Polymorph into a dragon:
You get a primary bite, two secondary claws, a secondary tail and secondary wings. That's plenty I make up for a low BaB at level 9.

Or use one of the more specialized polymorph spells, like Dragonshape.

[VoxRationis]

I'm not sure if this is what the OP meant, and I certainly don't want to put words in their mouth, but I'd like to refine the question to be:
Can a pure wizard, fighting using predominantly their own attack rolls rather than any offensive magics, be better at fighting than the fighter?
Or rather, since I'm pretty sure you'll still say "Yes," how?

Polymorph gives you a bunch of attacks, depending on what you turn into, and gives various degrees of damage, but how do you get the attack high enough to hit against, say, a dragon of appropriate CR?

[Dante Leos]

I was actually thinking for this to be mostly at higher level, around 20. Also any tricks can be used, but I wanna see this done WITHOUT multiclassing or prestige classes.

(You also don't have to refer to me as OP, we're all friends here right?)

[eggynack]

I was actually thinking for this to be mostly at higher level, around 20. Also any tricks can be used, but I wanna see this done WITHOUT multiclassing or prestige classes.

Oh. Yes, then. You have shapechange. Hydra form is a thing, and if that's not sufficient, then there absolutely exists some form that would make you superior to a fighter. You also have access to minionmancy effects, like planar binding and animate dead. This isn't a problem that requires serious optimization.

[dextercorvia]

It would be a slight exaggeration to say that a Wizard could out-fight a Fighter at level 1 without using any offensive magics, but that is the point. The wizard gets to make that choice. Pick a level, and I'll build a straight classed Wizard to show you his fighting ability. You can decide whether it surpasses the Fighter's.

[Dante Leos]

It would be a slight exaggeration to say that a Wizard could out-fight a Fighter at level 1 without using any offensive magics, but that is the point. The wizard gets to make that choice. Pick a level, and I'll build a straight classed Wizard to show you his fighting ability. You can decide whether it surpasses the Fighter's.

I choose level 20

[dextercorvia]

I choose level 20

Really? At level 20, persisted spells are easy to pull off, and as was mentioned, things like shapechange are on the table. I'll do it if you want, but are you sure you don't want to pick a level where the odds are slightly more in favor of the Fighter?

[Dante Leos]

Well, then lets go with level 7, since that is what my wizard character is at atm. But you can also state why level 20 wizard is boss too.

[Mando Knight]

Well, then lets go with level 7, since that is what my wizard character is at atm. But you can also state why level 20 wizard is boss too.

A level 20 wizard is also a 20HD dragon when he wants to be, thanks to Shapechange. If you want to go all out in melee, you could even cast Transformation after Shapechange. You're now stronger, faster, tougher than before. Unarmed, you can be a Huge dragon with claws like greatswords, should you decide to lower yourself to melee combat. With Transformation, you'd even be able to wield a Huge Greatsword with no penalty, and then mix in your bite, tail, and wing into the full attack. And that's fairly low levels of optimization.


At level 7, you can burn Polymorph to turn into a Wyrmling Red Dragon, which is respectable but without the Ex qualities (Fearful Presence, DR, SR, etc.), or the Su qualities and attacks (Breath Weapon), you're a little behind the Fighter. If you're using a ranged weapon and your opponent isn't, Fly is a 3rd level spell that gives you a fantastic advantage, and Flame Arrow gives you an extra +1d6 Fire damage. Heroism helps make up for the lost BAB, Cat's Grace and Bull's Strength give you Enhancement bonuses way earlier than a Fighter can afford them, Summon Monster gives you minions to act as additional health buffers, and other spells like Hold Person can let you "cheat" at fighting a few times per day.

[Dante Leos]

Wow, I already do a lot of these things strangely enough, except for polymorph, I prefer the things that like to hit things to hit things for me. Also you forget levitate, its as awesome as fly on occasion, as before I made our cleric enlarged and levitated him, allowing him to hit things below him without risk of getting hit back. I am used to Pathfinder, as they nerfed the polymorph series quite a bit, but we play with 3.PF and this mess around thread suddenly became useful, as I just looked up the 3.5 version of polymorph. Any suggestions on what to turn various party members into?

[HolyCouncilMagi]

Possible? Try trivial.

Polymorph is a good start. Mage Armor, Mirror Image, Displacement/Blur/Take your pick, and Stoneskin are each defensive buffs that individually invalidate the need for armor and when combined cover most defensive areas in melee combat better than a Fighter could dream of. Offensively, you've got the aforementioned Polymorph, Haste, and a host of things I've been swordage'd about.

[Larkas]

If you just want to fight as a Fighter, you can try persisting Divine Power (not too hard to get in your list; Arcane Disciple + War Domain is a way to do it) or Transformation. Don't forget to stack up on the metamagic reducers (Spelldancer, et al).

Of course, you have better uses for spells and metamagic feats, even if it is for getting down and dirty in combat.

[Flickerdart]

For the sake of calibration: a level 7 fighter has got 2 more feats, 4 points of BAB, and ~18 more hit points over the wizard. He might also have more AC (about 22 by this level, unless he wants to take money out of his weapon, vs somewhere in the high teens for the wizard).

You probably don't want to do an exact match of capabilities though, because it's much easier to just be better.

[TrueJordan]

I dunno, to be honest nothing says 'gish' like a level 15 druid that Wild Shapes into a flying giant squid on fire. In one turn. (Swift wild shape from mantle of the beast, quickened master air and cast fires of purity, one of my favorite spells.)

That said, once you hit level 20 and everyone who's anyone (i.e. full casters) gets shapechange, we're all 20-headed cryo/pyro-hydras that will rip you apart every turn with 20 attacks as well as 20 attacks of opportunity.

And that's not even with the master transmorgifist build, which, if done correctly, will yield you something like thirty something attacks per turn, available at level 12.

And... well, you get the idea.

Enjoy being a far better anything than your fighter could possibly even conceive of.

[Story]

Thanks to Heroics, the feat gap is 1 less.

[VoxRationis]

I thought there was a head cap for hydras...
In any case, where are you getting the 20 AoOs per round? Isn't that predicated on the opponent's actions?

[Eldariel]

Principally, Polymorph is used for massive stat bonuses which mostly negates the need for BAB (since you attack with natural weapons and thus get a fixed number instead of iteratives, and to hit can be boosted through other means). On level 7, Remorhaz straight from Monster Manual is a really nice form for instance. Later on you get your Cave Trolls, War Trolls, etc. False Life and Temp. HP in general give you some buffer tho mostly you should rely on making opponent unable to hit back and stuff like Mirror Image where appropriate. Once you get Shapechange, life is of course easy; Solar, Pit Fiend, Dread Wraith, Choker, Chronotyryn, etc. You can stack your normal buffs on top of that (many of which last all day by now) and look at obscene numerical values. Of course, you get even further advantages against anyone lacking True Seeing, ability to strike incorporeals, ability to walk through walls, ability to fly, etc.

[oxybe]

with the rhemoraz form and enough pre-buffs, you can get your AC into the 30's. add stoneskin and whomever you eat will have a much harder time breaking your innards's 25HP mark when all they can use is light weapons.

plus while they're inside your belly, you can burrow underground and leave them there should they ever escape.

[TrueJordan]

I thought there was a head cap for hydras...
In any case, where are you getting the 20 AoOs per round? Isn't that predicated on the opponent's actions?

There is, but it's 24, however at level 20 you can 'only' shapechange into something with 20HD

Yeah, I meant 'up to 20 AoOs per round', thanks.

[Fouredged Sword]

Initiate of fairy mysteries as a feat means you get int to HP, and likely have an int in the mid thirties by level 20. Polymorph spells mean you don't need any physical stats, so they all get dumped. High will saves means you don't need wisdom, and charm spells mean you never need charisma.

So we dump everything in favor of Int and as a distant second, dex. Grey elf elven generalist wizard 5 / Ruthar 3 / abjurant champion 5 / ISFV 7 sounds about right. You can get Initiate of the seven fold veil for defenses that nobody will penetrate, and abjurant champion for better bab and such a high AC that nobody can touch you.

By the end of the build, you are looking at persisted draconic polymorph (metamagic school focus, 3 points of metamagic reduction per day for enough mitigation) as an young adult gold dragon with a 37 strength and +19 natural armor (that you change to a +16 nat AC and +11 deflection bonus with another persisted spell), greater luminous armor for another +11, Greater shield for +11...

If the fighter or monster can't hit a +50-60 defense, they are out of luck.

So yes, a wizard can FAR out fight the fighter.

[Story]

There is, but it's 24, however at level 20 you can 'only' shapechange into something with 20HD


Actually, Shapechange isn't limited by your HD like Polymorph is. Assuming a decent CL, you can change into anything of up to 25HD (28 with Reserves of Strength).


Anyway, I'm not aware of anything past 12 heads. Are they from ELH or something?

[Telonius]

It's just a minor trick on top of all the rest of this, but Skillful Weapon (+2 enhancement) means that the Wizard effectively has medium BAB.

[ace rooster]

Any 3rd level wizard that even may get into combat can have alter self prepared to get +6 natural armour, 3 natural attacks and free multiattack from troglodyte form. That brings his AC to 24 + dex. False life will take the edge off the hit point gap, but displacement basically halves the damage you take, so the fighter has to have double to be better.

What this neglects is potions, which at this level mean that most of these tricks are also open to the fighter! For the same reasons that every combat wizard walks about with alter self (or some other similar spell) prepared, every fighter should walk around with a potion of alter self, false life, and see invisibility. It is expensive, but will make a fighter strictly better as a fighter than a wizard. Unfortunately the wizard pretending to be a fighter is also a wizard, so can react by just dispelling if they get in a fight.

Played using standard fighter tactics, the fighter will always be able to be slightly better, because he can get access (via minor cheese) to the main tricks that a straight wizard would use to be better at combat, on top of a better bab and combat feats. The wizard is not restricted to fighter tactics though, and can switch back to wizard mode at any time.

[Inevitability]

If you're undead (necropolitan does that nicely), you already fixed your HD problems. 1d12=1d4+4

Your BAB is kinda bad, but you can wield a skillful weapon, or just polymorph into something with a ton of natural attacks. Or, you know, true strike.

Also, wizards get an ACF to exchange scribe scroll and other bonus feats for fighter bonus feats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Obligatory Polymorph Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=519.0) link. That should cover all levels up to Polymorph's HD cap, and Draconic Polymorph in the Draconomicon goes up to 15 HD and gives and extra +8 Str and +2 Con. You can use Persistent Spell with Draconic Polymorph and Shapechange, so any alternate-cost method such as Incantatrix or Spelldancer can get you some all-day buffs. On top of that you get all the Bite of the Werecreature spells in SC in the mid to high levels, which can also be used with Persistent Spell. Then there's (Greater) Luminous Armor in BoED which gives you an amazing AC, and you can get a Rod of Bodily Restoration (MIC) to fix the Str damage that happens when it ends.

[Story]

Any 3rd level wizard that even may get into combat can have alter self prepared to get +6 natural armour, 3 natural attacks and free multiattack from troglodyte form.

Nitpick: Not any wizard. As I mentioned before, Necropolitans can't do this.



What this neglects is potions, which at this level mean that most of these tricks are also open to the fighter! For the same reasons that every combat wizard walks about with alter self (or some other similar spell) prepared, every fighter should walk around with a potion of alter self, false life, and see invisibility. It is expensive, but will make a fighter strictly better as a fighter than a wizard. Unfortunately the wizard pretending to be a fighter is also a wizard, so can react by just dispelling if they get in a fight.

Played using standard fighter tactics, the fighter will always be able to be slightly better, because he can get access (via minor cheese) to the main tricks that a straight wizard would use to be better at combat, on top of a better bab and combat feats. The wizard is not restricted to fighter tactics though, and can switch back to wizard mode at any time.

No, the fighter is not strictly better. Potions are highly expensive and limited and the Fighter isn't going to have WBL to spare. And it's still going to be a lower duration and lower CL.

You might as well argue that Monks are good because they can use partially charged wands on a nat 20 with cross class UMD.

Anyway, I'm curious what this "minor cheese" is. Unless you're gestalting with Artificer or something silly like that, I'm not sure how you can get anywhere close to the standard array of Wizard buffs, especially at higher levels.

[dextercorvia]

What this neglects is potions, which at this level mean that most of these tricks are also open to the fighter! For the same reasons that every combat wizard walks about with alter self (or some other similar spell) prepared, every fighter should walk around with a potion of alter self, false life, and see invisibility.

emphasis mine

What this neglects, is that potions cannot be made from Personal range spells. So, your fighter has to put resources into UMD, and scrolls/wands instead. Also, at base caster level you would need to spend 3 rounds buffing for a single combat (maybe 2 in a dungeon, but I bet you spend at least 10 minutes in a room, because of traps). Any fighter that spends 3 standard actions buffing himself, instead of just smashing things, is not doing his job effectively.

[VoxRationis]

Any fighter that spends 3 standard actions buffing himself, instead of just smashing things, is not doing his job effectively.

As opposed to wizards, who can spend all kinds of actions casting polymorph, alter self, and half a dozen other things on themselves while still being considered effective?
You can quicken things, some have long durations, and depending on your level, contingency may apply, but you still have to spend some time applying those buffs.

[Story]

Polymorph is only one action to win every encounter. And it lasts for 15 minutes so you can do it before hand if you suspect battles are coming up.

[Flickerdart]

Any fighter that spends 3 standard actions buffing himself, instead of just smashing things, is not doing his job effectively.
3 standard actions just to drink them - if he needs a potion that isn't in his potion belt, that's up to a full-round action to get it out of a container.

[Fouredged Sword]

After level 12 the wizard has enough buffs persisted or with hour/level duration that the only buffs he NEEDS are already in place.

[TrueJordan]

Nitpick: Not any wizard. As I mentioned before, Necropolitans can't do this.


Maybe not exactly that, but Necropolitans can get spell stitched for a laughably low price *cough* thought bottle *cough*, and assuming their wisdom is high enough they can get a sixth level SLA at a very low level so whatevz

[Big Fau]

Well, then lets go with level 7, since that is what my wizard character is at atm. But you can also state why level 20 wizard is boss too.

Use the following spells:

Fist of Stone
Bear's Endurance
Blur
Shield
Mage Armor
Alter Self/Polymorph
False Life
Haste

Extend as many of those as you can (a Lesser Rod of Extend costs 3K, one can cover 3 spells). Most of them have decent durations as-is, but some of them last for a minute or so. Haste is the only one that has to be cast mid-combat.

[Big Fau]

What this neglects is potions, which at this level mean that most of these tricks are also open to the fighter! For the same reasons that every combat wizard walks about with alter self (or some other similar spell) prepared, every fighter should walk around with a potion of alter self, false life, and see invisibility. It is expensive, but will make a fighter strictly better as a fighter than a wizard. Unfortunately the wizard pretending to be a fighter is also a wizard, so can react by just dispelling if they get in a fight.


1: The OP never even mentioned PvP combat. The Wizard and Fighter aren't going to be going up against each other.
2: Potions are the single least effective method of self-buffing. Ever. A single potion costs not only a Standard/Full Round action to use, it provokes an AoO and costs far too much to be used regularly. The Wizard can buff himself daily; the Fighter might be able to buff himself about once per dungeon at most, and he'll fall behind on the WBL for doing so.
3: Potions are horribly easy to dispel due to only having a default CL of 5. A large number of enemies with SLAs are capable of dispelling, rendering the Fighter's buffs useless (the Wizard has a better chance due to his CL being higher and potentially boosting his CL out of range).
4: Using the WBL as an argument for which class is better is faulty logic at best. It is entirely possible for a Wizard to use potions of a Cleric's spells to buff himself in addition to the spells he can cast normally.

If money is no object in your game then using magic items to buff yourself is entirely viable. However the OP specified 7th level, and the WBL for a 7th level character does not allow a Fighter enough leeway to abuse magic items.

[ace rooster]

Nitpick: Not any wizard. As I mentioned before, Necropolitans can't do this.

Anyway, I'm curious what this "minor cheese" is. Unless you're gestalting with Artificer or something silly like that, I'm not sure how you can get anywhere close to the standard array of Wizard buffs, especially at higher levels.

Major ring of spell storing, and a friendly party wizard. The ring is a very useful party item, as it allows anyone to cast anyone's spells. Sure the wizard could cast all the spells on himself, but he can never get all the feats. The wizard will get better results by applying buffs to a fighter, (with appropriate methods for getting selfs onto them) rather than trying to be a fighter himself, and letting the fighter be a cheerleader.

I am in no way arguing that a fighter is strong on his own, or even important in a party (The role is filled fine by summons if at all). I am saying that the buffs that make a wizard strong in combat would make a commoner strong in combat, but can be used equally on a fighter. That fighter will excede the wizard in a hitting match.

You may say this is a dumb example, but given that the fighter barely functions at all without buffs I tend to take them as a given.

I suppose the main thrust of my argument is that using only wizard or fighter, the ultimate 'fighter' character would be a fighter buffed up to the sky, rather than a wizard with those same buffs. The wizard would still be the better character though, as he could just forcecage or whatever. He would also be better at being a fighter than an unbuffed fighter, but so would a buffed commoner.

I just reread the potion creation rules. I really wish they would include all the information about valid spells in the potions section of the DMG rather than just the feat. As is, potions like that can exist, but you just can't make them. :smallconfused:

[Story]

Major ring of spell storing, and a friendly party wizard. The ring is a very useful party item, as it allows anyone to cast anyone's spells. Sure the wizard could cast all the spells on himself, but he can never get all the feats. The wizard will get better results by applying buffs to a fighter, (with appropriate methods for getting selfs onto them) rather than trying to be a fighter himself, and letting the fighter be a cheerleader.


Oh wow, the ring looks much better than I remembered. Depending on how it's interpreted, it's almost broken.

Anyway, the problem is that the difference between a buffed Fighter and a buffed Wizard is negligible, especially if Cleric buffs are thrown into the mix. And the ring is a major chunk of WBL. You're spending a lot of time and money with little benefit.



I suppose the main thrust of my argument is that using only wizard or fighter, the ultimate 'fighter' character would be a fighter buffed up to the sky, rather than a wizard with those same buffs. The wizard would still be the better character though, as he could just forcecage or whatever. He would also be better at being a fighter than an unbuffed fighter, but so would a buffed commoner.


The problem is that you're comparing a Wizard to a Wizard + Fighter. All else being equal, I think Wizard + Wizard would do better. Wizard + Cleric definitely would.

[ace rooster]

Anyway, the problem is that the difference between a buffed Fighter and a buffed Wizard is negligible, especially if Cleric buffs are thrown into the mix. And the ring is a major chunk of WBL. You're spending a lot of time and money with little benefit.

The problem is that you're comparing a Wizard to a Wizard + Fighter. All else being equal, I think Wizard + Wizard would do better. Wizard + Cleric definitely would.

Not quite negligible, as the fighter has more feats.

The ring is expensive, but you only need one for a large party. It can be used to give everyone shapechange for example, even if not every caster can cast it (Say a sorc casts them all, then takes a spell turning and DMM persisted divine power from it). The cost could be spread.

I'm comparing wizard and fighter where the wizard buffs himself to wizard and fighter where the wizard buffs the fighter. In the first case the fighter is a non entity, and the wizard is still not as good as a buffed fighter. In the second you have a combat machine, and a wizard. 2 wizards are definitely stronger, but if one is fighting like a fighter (unlikely, but the premise) then it would be a tough call (Would the marginal advantage the fighter has over his opponent be more important than the spell slots used to buff him).

[Segev]

Not quite negligible, as the fighter has more feats.

Until the wizard hits 3rd level and can cast Heroics (spell compendium; gives a fighter bonus feat for 1 min/level). When he can afford a wand of it, it gets even sillier.

[dextercorvia]

Until the wizard hits 3rd level and can cast Heroics (spell compendium; gives a fighter bonus feat for 1 min/level). When he can afford a wand of it, it gets even sillier.

10 min per level, actually.

[Zanos]

As opposed to wizards, who can spend all kinds of actions casting polymorph, alter self, and half a dozen other things on themselves while still being considered effective?
You can quicken things, some have long durations, and depending on your level, contingency may apply, but you still have to spend some time applying those buffs.
If you drink a potion for a buff you're dealing with rock bottom CL, which means minimal durations and being incredibly easy to dispel, as well as limiting yourself to lower level buffs. At low levels this is prohibitively expensive because potions are actually pretty costly, and at high levels it's ineffective because any buff you get from a potion will be removed with a regular dispel magic with near certainty.

And alter self is a 10min/level duration, which means you can probably cast it once and have it last for several encounters throughout the day, although that depends on how your game is structured.

[ace rooster]

Until the wizard hits 3rd level and can cast Heroics (spell compendium; gives a fighter bonus feat for 1 min/level). When he can afford a wand of it, it gets even sillier.

I've not got the SC to hand, but I thought it didn't stack (correct me if I'm wrong). For the material component you need to be mugging 15th level fighters regularly, which is much easier with a willing fighter. You will be hard pressed to argue that a 15th level fighter will be using any gear that costs less than 1gp, so eschew materials is DM call. It also is not guarenteed that the DM will allow you to use heroics as a prerequisite for another casting even if it does stack.

[Segev]

I've not got the SC to hand, but I thought it didn't stack (correct me if I'm wrong). For the material component you need to be mugging 15th level fighters regularly, which is much easier with a willing fighter. You will be hard pressed to argue that a 15th level fighter will be using any gear that costs less than 1gp, so eschew materials is DM call. It also is not guarenteed that the DM will allow you to use heroics as a prerequisite for another casting even if it does stack.

No need to mug them; just go start being a crazy fanboy and buying shreds of their jerseys--er, chain mail. A single link from a chain shirt worn once by that 15th level fighter is your material component. As would be a chip from a club he swung in a tavern brawl.

Since D&D goes off "intrinsic value," you can almost certainly identify some element of gear a 15th level fighter has used that is not going to cost more than 1 gp, for Eschewing purposes. It also can be found in your spell-component pouch. By the RAW, since it doesn't have a cost listed, its cheap enough to find in the pouch. Weird, but true.

There's no reason it wouldn't "stack," because each casting is creating a different and distinct effect. Casting Unseen Servant 3 times will create a new Servant each time. Casting Bestow Curse 3 times will bestow 3 different curses. Casting Heroics 3 times will bestow 3 feats.

And nothing in the rules says that you have to have prerequisite feats from a particular source in order for them to count, so you can chain them, too. A DM who says otherwise is house ruling to nerf the spell.

[Story]

I didn't realize Heroics could stack. Yes, that makes the difference even more negligible. Combined with Divine Power, there's barely a difference at all.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, except the wizard is also a dragon and the fighter is hit by disjunction, leaving him a guy with a stick fighting a VERY big magical lizard.

[VoxRationis]

Okay, if you assume the fighter gets slammed with dispels the minute combat starts, you have to assume the wizard who loads himself up with all kinds of buffs and transforms into something that can't counterspell is going to as well.
Edit: Were you assuming the two were fighting one another? I was thinking they were going up against monsters or something. In any case, I would count dispels as "offensive magic" and thus cheating for the purpose of this exercise.

[eggynack]

Okay, if you assume the fighter gets slammed with dispels the minute combat starts, you have to assume the wizard who loads himself up with all kinds of buffs and transforms into something that can't counterspell is going to as well.
I think that the argument is that given some quantity of dispelling, the fighter is going to get his stuff successfully dispelled more often than the wizard.

[Vogonjeltz]

For the sake of calibration: a level 7 fighter has got 2 more feats, 4 points of BAB, and ~18 more hit points over the wizard. He might also have more AC (about 22 by this level, unless he wants to take money out of his weapon, vs somewhere in the high teens for the wizard).

You probably don't want to do an exact match of capabilities though, because it's much easier to just be better.

The wizard has 3 feats that are locked in to scribe scroll and 2 meta magic feats though. So the Fighter has 5 more feats than the wizard (all of which will be fighting related) and a higher BAB such that the wizard won't even qualify for many feats.

With the starting assumption that was posed (the wizard doesn't use magic except for self buffing), feats become the deciding factor in what options a character has. No?

[ace rooster]

Well I stand corrected on the heroics thing, I could have sworn it had a clause in it about only one at a time but apparently not. They really couldn't let casters be behind on anything could they. The only feats that even have hard prerequisites are leap attack (8 ranks jump) and dragonbane (bab +11).

I can only find one reference about temporary feats, and that is magic locations in complete mage. They explicitly cannot be used as prerequisites, so I think you would be hard pressed to argue getting feat chains with heroics.

If dispels are getting thrown around then the caster level 3 wand is not going to cut it, so the wizard is going to have to use actual slots for heroics. Assuming he has convinced the DM to give him feat chains through heroics, if one of the chain is dispelled then the caster loses use of all feats above it, so they are more vulnerable to dispels. Most of the buffs on the fighter will have been cast directly anyway, so will not have lost caster level.

If the wizard remembers he is a wizard, then the fighter will die fast, but the question is about a wizard pretending to be a fighter. Hence no disjunctioning your opponent, as that is just straight being a wizard.

I am not assuming they are fighting each other, but it does provide a way to compare them. Standing up to things like dispels is part of the job description of a fighter and as such is something to be compared, but given that most of the buffs would be cast by the same people anyway, and not get put up again if they are dispelled in combat, there is little distinction.

In my mind the role of a fighter is to recieve buffs, and then hit things. Sourcing the buffs is what the rest of the party is for, and not part of the fighter job description. A wizard playing a fighter role will be able to source his own buffs, but will require more to be similarly effective, and be more reliant on them. In most parties the wizard would make the role work better, because mostly the support is not available, and the wizard can provide his own. A bit like saying the best driver is one who can provide their own car.

[eggynack]

The wizard has 3 feats that are locked in to scribe scroll and 2 meta magic feats though. So the Fighter has 5 more feats than the wizard (all of which will be fighting related) and a higher BAB such that the wizard won't even qualify for many feats.
Eh, if we're really doing this then the wizard can take this ACF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard), and turn those locked in feats into fighter-style locked in feats. We may find that the normal feats are better for our wizard, but that's even better for our noble wizard.

[Flickerdart]

The wizard has 3 feats that are locked in to scribe scroll and 2 meta magic feats though. So the Fighter has 5 more feats than the wizard (all of which will be fighting related) and a higher BAB such that the wizard won't even qualify for many feats.
7th level martial wizard: Bonus fighter feats at 1 and 5.
7th level fighter: Bonus fighter feats at 1, 2, 4, and 6.

Where are you getting 5 from?


With the starting assumption that was posed (the wizard doesn't use magic except for self buffing), feats become the deciding factor in what options a character has. No?
No - there are many buffs that give the user options beyond what a single feat could dream of, such as polymorphing into a hydra.

[Vogonjeltz]

Eh, if we're really doing this then the wizard can take this ACF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard), and turn those locked in feats into fighter-style locked in feats. We may find that the normal feats are better for our wizard, but that's even better for our noble wizard.

So, what feats are being proposed for the Wizard?

*i got 5 before I saw that martial feat ACF :)

[Flickerdart]

So, what feats are being proposed for the Wizard?
The specific feats aren't hugely relevant to the discussion, since they would vary for both wizard-fighter and fighter-fighter builds depending on what the characters wanted to focus on.



*i got 5 before I saw that martial feat ACF :)
A 7th level fighter doesn't get five bonus feats, period.

[Vogonjeltz]

The specific feats aren't hugely relevant to the discussion, since they would vary for both wizard-fighter and fighter-fighter builds depending on what the characters wanted to focus on.

For the sake of discussion let us be specific.

Combat Expertise and Power Attack both let the Fighter convert their superior BAB (+7 vs +3), wizards simply won't benefit as much.

The Fighter is also capable of picking up tactical feats, which I think almost all require +6 BAB, the wizard can not.

Lastly, weapon style feats have a fair number of prerequisites that the Wizard won't (I think) be able to pick them up at all.

What would the wizard do if they wanted to:

Be an archer, horseman, sword and board, 2h weapon, or twf?

*i was also counting regular feats, no restrictions on their use.

Wizard gets feats at: 1st, 1st bonus, 3rd, 5th bonus, 6th (5)
Fighter gets feats at: 1st, 1st bonus, 2nd bonus, 3rd, 4th bonus, 6th, 6th bonus (7)

[Flickerdart]

*i was also counting regular feats, no restrictions on their use.
They get the same number of regular feats.


For the sake of discussion let us be specific.

Combat Expertise and Power Attack both let the Fighter convert their superior BAB (+7 vs +3), wizards simply won't benefit as much.

The Fighter is also capable of picking up tactical feats, which I think almost all require +6 BAB, the wizard can not.

Lastly, weapon style feats have a fair number of prerequisites that the Wizard won't (I think) be able to pick them up at all.

What would the wizard do if they wanted to:

Be an archer, horseman, sword and board, 2h weapon, or twf?
So what we are actually talking about are not feats but goals. Combat styles, tactical feats, etc. are all just means to an end - killing dudes before they can kill you, killing dudes and then running away so they can't kill you, knocking dudes over so they can't kill you, etc.

[Vogonjeltz]

They get the same number of regular feats.


So what we are actually talking about are not feats but goals. Combat styles, tactical feats, etc. are all just means to an end - killing dudes before they can kill you, killing dudes and then running away so they can't kill you, knocking dudes over so they can't kill you, etc.

Ok, let's keep it simple. If the wizard wants to emulate the role of the archer?

[Rebel7284]

One important reasons Wizards don't need BAB is the Wraithstrike spell. Even without Persistent Spell, it can be extended. In addition to many Polymorph forms having high armor class, the wizard also typically has miss chance.

So at level 7, Wizard starts with Greater Mage Armor and False Life precast and extended.

First round casts Polymorph into a large form with high AC and Strength and reach. Swift Action, Extended Wraithstrike.

If the fighter manages to tumble/survive the AOO, Immediate Action cast Greater Mirror Image.

This is before accounting for Abrupt Jaunt option.

[VoxRationis]

The Fighter is also capable of picking up tactical feats, which I think almost all require +6 BAB, the wizard can not.

A 20th level wizard has +10/+5 for base attack bonus. He wouldn't meet that basic prerequisite until 12th level, but he would be able to get a tactical feat, so long as the other prerequisites weren't that bad.
As an aside: What does everyone think about tactical feats, particularly the concept of them (as opposed to specific, extant feats)?

[VoxRationis]

One important reasons Wizards don't need BAB is the Wraithstrike spell. Even without Persistent Spell, it can be extended.

If you're using Persistent Spell, it works, but a buff that works for two rounds is of dubious quality even if you have hands to re-cast it with, and many polymorph forms don't.

[Vogonjeltz]

A 20th level wizard has +10/+5 for base attack bonus. He wouldn't meet that basic prerequisite until 12th level, but he would be able to get a tactical feat, so long as the other prerequisites weren't that bad.
As an aside: What does everyone think about tactical feats, particularly the concept of them (as opposed to specific, extant feats)?

Yeah that's why I was talking about the wizard as fighter at 7th level. :p

I generally like the tactical feats as a means of giving the character an interesting flavor.

[Fouredged Sword]

A wizard who wants to emulate an archer casts chain launch bolt for 10+ arrows fires at full bab, and he is an unseen seer, so they all get 4d6+ sneak attack at extreme range due to snipers shot.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, then lets go with level 7, since that is what my wizard character is at atm. But you can also state why level 20 wizard is boss too.

OK.

Dump Strength and Dex. A Wizard really only needs Int and Con. As we plan to melee, using spells for buffing only, we can prioritize Con over Int.

Let's just go over the Core spell list of things that'd be directly useful, starting at spell level 4 and working our way down:
4th:
Stoneskin: Lasts a little over an hour, gives DR 10/Adamantine until that's stopped 70 points of damage. Unless you're regularly being attacked by Adamantine-wielding foes, if you know a fight is coming soon, this already puts you ahead of the fighter's HP. By a lot.
Polymorph: Most 7 HD critters are well within your grasp. Short duration (1 minute/level), but the True Dragons give you some interesting things: The Wyrmling Red is medium, and just in range. 17 Strength to go with a 1d8 bite (with reach), two claws at 1d6 each, and two wing attacks at 1d4 each. Also +6 Natural Armor (medium, dex 10, so AC 16 before other spells), and a 150 foot fly speed. You may need to increase your attack bonus a bit to keep up with the Fighter's, but then, he'll usually be Power Attacking down a bit. Take Multiattack and Improved Unarmed Strike (waste of a feat thanks to the Monk's Belt, but I'm ignoring items for now), and your attack routine looks like +6/+4/+4/+4/+4/+4 for 1d3+3/1d8+1/1d6+1/1d6+1/1d4+1/1d4+1. Not great (yet), but we'll get there.
Fire Shield: Mostly a trap, but amusing: People attacking you up close & personal take 1d6+7 damage (Fire or cold, your choice at casting).
3rd:
Heroism: Lasts a little over an hour (like Stoneskin), gives you +2 to attack rolls (plus a few things that don't matter to what we're doing right now). Combine with the red dragon polymorph above, and your attack line looks like: +8/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6 for 1d3+3/1d8+1/1d6+1/1d6+1/1d4+1/1d4+1
Haste: Very short duration, but useful and helps the entire party. Doubles your primary non-natural attack, and gives +1 to attack rolls as well. Combined with Heroism, Polymorph (Wyrmling Red Dragon), Improved Unarmed Strike, and Multiattack, and your attack line now reads: +9/+9/+7/+7/+7/+7/+7 for 1d3+3/1d3+3/1d8+1/1d6+1/1d6+1/1d4+1/1d4+1
Displacement: 50% miss chance beats most form s of AC. Extremely short duration, though, so not an every fight thing.
Flame Arrow: For when you want to be an archer. Mostly not useful, we want to melee here, right?
Greater Magic Weapon, Keen Edge: Useful if you're using Alter Self rather than Polymorph, but turning into a dragon mostly precludes using manufactured weapons.
Rage: This is a trap, ignore it.
2nd:
Mirror Image: Makes you rather hard to take down. Pretty much replaces your AC against most opponents, and rather effectively at that. The minute/level duration is annoying, though.
False Life: Hours/level, so will normall last until it runs out of HP, gives you 1d10+7, average 12.5 (at this level) hp. Empower to a 4th level slot, and you're getting 1.5*(1d10+7), average 18.75 hp out of it. This will generally cover the difference in HP between the Fighter and the Wizard.
Alter Self: This is used when you don't have enough preparation time for Polymorph, because it lasts a little over an hour. Doesn't change your stats, but the Troglodite gets 6 points of natural armor, which is very useful.
Cat's Grace, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance: These increase your AC, attack/damage, and HP (respectively). Minutes/level, so not an every fight thing, but that Bull's Strength, combined with the above stuff from earlier, gives you an attack line of +11/+11/+9/+9/+9/+9/+9 for 1d3+5/1d3+5/1d8+2/1d6+2/1d6+2/1d4+2/1d4+2. If you can get it all up for the fight, I think you just one-rounded most melee opponents at the level.
Blur: 20% miss chance very much helps, and at a minute/level, it's about as useful as Polymorph.
Protection from Arrows: Pointless at this level. Only gives you DR/magic, and only vs. ranged attacks, and limited. Essentially anything shooting at you at this level is going to be using magic weapons.
1st:
Shield, Mage Armor: Staple AC boosters, work just fine in alternate forms. Shield only lasts a minute/level, so it's not every fight at this point, but Mage Armor lasts 7 hours.
Enlarge Person: Minute/level, like polymorph. Useful in Trog form if you are out of Polymorphs for the day, but mostly worthless.
Grease: Deserves a mention, as it gets you out of grapples. The duration is short enough, however, that it's not usually worth casting at this level.

[Mando Knight]

For the sake of discussion let us be specific.

Combat Expertise and Power Attack both let the Fighter convert their superior BAB (+7 vs +3), wizards simply won't benefit as much.

The Fighter is also capable of picking up tactical feats, which I think almost all require +6 BAB, the wizard can not.

Lastly, weapon style feats have a fair number of prerequisites that the Wizard won't (I think) be able to pick them up at all.

What would the wizard do if they wanted to:

Be an archer, horseman, sword and board, 2h weapon, or twf?

Tactical feats are a fairly weak stopgap on the way to Wizards overpowering Fighters at any role. They won't usually fight the same as a Fighter, since their stats and feat growth don't line up, but they do things like turn into invisible flying death machines... that are also dragons. Horseman? Cut out the middle man and be a dragon. Or Gate in a planar dragon. Whatever. Melee? Be a dragon. Archer? Dragon that casts disabling spells from afar.

And that's mostly only using one hammer in the Wizard toolbox.

[DMVerdandi]

I kind of think the shape change/polymorph argument is just a little... eh. I think it's better to fight like a fighter than fighting like a dragon.


Spells I think rock socks.

1. Wraithtouch (Target touch ac)
2.Armor of darkness (10 min/level/ Deflection AC 4+1/3 levels after 7 AND more)
3.Greater Mage Armor (+6 Armor Bonus)
4.Heroism
5.Heroics (Gives one fighter feat per casting 10/min per level. It's like a level 2 spell. 4 and you have any combo necessary to fight as a fighter does. keep in mind, gives access to TOB when allowed. Depending on how many you have prepared, one could be a damn good initiator.)
6.Greater magic weapon
7. Draconic might/Chasing perfection (Enhancement boosts to multiple scores)
8. Greater mighty whallop (If going the unarmed route, KILLER DAMAGE.)


Feats
power attack, smiting spell, improved initiative, extend spell, persistent spell,


Buff and snuff.

[Story]

You get Power Attack from Bite of the Weretiger, so there's little reason to take it on your own.

[Segev]

It is worth noting - though not entirely applicable to the premise of this thread - that Heroics is not self-only. It can be cast on your fighter ally. It likely is more effective when used that way, particularly if you use your other non-self-only buffs on him, too. Not only does he have an entire separate set of actions from you, but for all his advantages are miniscule compared to yours, they are more synergistic with the combat buffs than are yours.

An interesting build might be a fighter of at least 15th level who makes a point of using a club every now and again and has Leadership. With some focus on Charisma (admittedly normally a dump stat for Fighters), he could have a +4 bonus, getting him up to a Leadership score of 19. THat gets him up to 3 3rd-level cohorts. Take them as wizards whose job it is to buff him. He hands his club over to be broken into splinters every so often so they have the material components for Heroics. (This is largely flavor; as discussed, the material component has no listed gp value and thus can be found in a spell component pouch.)

This fighter now has a number of buffs that go on him at 3/round, including the potential for highly customizable suites of Fighter Bonus Feats.

(Still hardly optimal, but potentially cool.)

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, now I am imagining a tippyverse world where there are sporting events that pit a wizard and fighter team VS each other. The wizards are forbidden to attack or be attacked, and can only target their fighter with spells.

[Segev]

Hm. Just how much can sufficient buff spells raise the effective CR/CL of a character?

Could one build a Sorcerer or Wizard or Cleric or other buff-focused caster such that he can use War Weaver or the like to buff his Leadership-granted Followers to the point that his small army is a legitimate threat against his-CR-appropriate encounters?

Could this be applied to minionmancers of various sorts, too? Make those 1-HD skeletons and zombies into forces with which to be reckoned?

[Vrock_Summoner]

Ok, now I am imagining a tippyverse world where there are sporting events that pit a wizard and fighter team VS each other. The wizards are forbidden to attack or be attacked, and can only target their fighter with spells.

That... Actually sounds pretty awesome. Can my Fighter be something I Planar Bind instead, though? :smalltongue:

[Story]

Hm. Just how much can sufficient buff spells raise the effective CR/CL of a character?

Could one build a Sorcerer or Wizard or Cleric or other buff-focused caster such that he can use War Weaver or the like to buff his Leadership-granted Followers to the point that his small army is a legitimate threat against his-CR-appropriate encounters?

Could this be applied to minionmancers of various sorts, too? Make those 1-HD skeletons and zombies into forces with which to be reckoned?

In the last campaign I was in, we were tearing through CR+5-6 encounters with ease thanks to optimization, buffing, and surprise rounds. And that was with a 3 person party, one of whom was unoptimized.

[Vogonjeltz]

A wizard who wants to emulate an archer casts chain launch bolt for 10+ arrows fires at full bab, and he is an unseen seer, so they all get 4d6+ sneak attack at extreme range due to snipers shot.

That is a level 16 (minimum) character. It's also not a wizard, and only functions if there are multiple targets. And full BAB would be rather unimpressive. So how does the wizard emulate at level 7?


Tactical feats are a fairly weak stopgap on the way to Wizards overpowering Fighters at any role. They won't usually fight the same as a Fighter, since their stats and feat growth don't line up, but they do things like turn into invisible flying death machines... that are also dragons. Horseman? Cut out the middle man and be a dragon. Or Gate in a planar dragon. Whatever. Melee? Be a dragon. Archer? Dragon that casts disabling spells from afar.

And that's mostly only using one hammer in the Wizard toolbox.

So what is the hammer in the wizards box that let's them be a fighter?

Polymorph doesn't net the wizard BAB, which is the underlying basis for most combat actions. It also doesn't net the wizard more HD, so they remain quite fragile. There's also the tiny matter of action economy. Turning into an invisible dragon would burn 2 rounds for the average level 7 wizard. That puts them up to 4 attacks behind the sword and board and 2h fighter, 6 behind the archery fighter, and 8 behind the twf fighter. That doesn't include AoO, other feat based bonus attacks, and anything like haste.

Wizards may have spells to buff, but that doesn't make them anything like a fighter.

[Mando Knight]

So what is the hammer in the wizards box that let's them be a fighter?

Polymorph doesn't net the wizard BAB, which is the underlying basis for most combat actions. It also doesn't net the wizard more HD, so they remain quite fragile. There's also the tiny matter of action economy. Turning into an invisible dragon would burn 2 rounds for the average level 7 wizard. That puts them up to 4 attacks behind the sword and board and 2h fighter, 6 behind the archery fighter, and 8 behind the twf fighter. That doesn't include AoO, other feat based bonus attacks, and anything like haste.

Wizards may have spells to buff, but that doesn't make them anything like a fighter.
Jack_Simth covered buffing in detail.

Polymorph into a medium dragon grants a 5-attack full attack and a fly speed for gap closing (Red Wyrmling grants a 150' flight speed, as well as a fairly high 40' land speed), as well as decent base Strength (17 for Red Wyrmling), and +6 Natural Armor (to stack with Mage Armor and the like). This is the core, the "hammer," of the Fighting Wizard. When you aren't sure what to do, being a dragon is a good start.

Stoneskin gives you DR 10/Adamantine for 70 points of "hit points," which is better than the Fighter could hope for.

Invisibility gives you time to buff up if you couldn't see the fight coming a minute or two in advance... or even almost an hour in advance, since Heroism, Heroics, and Stoneskin are all 10 min/level. Also, a fully-buffed full attack to break invisibility is a good way to take out an unsuspecting opponent.

[Story]

Turning into an invisible dragon would burn 2 rounds for the average level 7 wizard. That puts them up to 4 attacks behind the sword and board and 2h fighter, 6 behind the archery fighter, and 8 behind the twf fighter. That doesn't include AoO, other feat based bonus attacks, and anything like haste.

Only one round if they put Invsibilty into a Glyph Seal. And that's assuming they're somehow surprised, which definitely won't happen every fight. Admittedly, it's a bit campaign dependent, but in my experience, you can see most encounters coming in advance, especially with decent scouting and proper paranoia.

Also who gets Haste? Oh yeah.

[Zanos]

Most wizards will be better off buffing the fighter in the party, which is intentional and expected behavior.

The unintentional and blatantly broken thing is that if the Wizard casts buffs meant for the fighter on himself he becomes a better fighter than an unbuffed fighter.

[Vogonjeltz]

Jack_Simth covered buffing in detail.

Polymorph into a medium dragon grants a 5-attack full attack and a fly speed for gap closing (Red Wyrmling grants a 150' flight speed, as well as a fairly high 40' land speed), as well as decent base Strength (17 for Red Wyrmling), and +6 Natural Armor (to stack with Mage Armor and the like). This is the core, the "hammer," of the Fighting Wizard. When you aren't sure what to do, being a dragon is a good start.

Stoneskin gives you DR 10/Adamantine for 70 points of "hit points," which is better than the Fighter could hope for.

Invisibility gives you time to buff up if you couldn't see the fight coming a minute or two in advance... or even almost an hour in advance, since Heroism, Heroics, and Stoneskin are all 10 min/level. Also, a fully-buffed full attack to break invisibility is a good way to take out an unsuspecting opponent.

That dragon shape is only going to have +6 to hit on the primary bite, and +1 for those secondaries. Fighting a CR 7 opponent, say a young red dragon with a base AC of 21, and that wizard will be lucky to hit with just the first attack, let alone the others.

Fighter has at least a +11 (7 BAB, 1 mw, 3 from str) for a 50/50 on the first attack and a 25/75 on the second.


Only one round if they put Invsibilty into a Glyph Seal. And that's assuming they're somehow surprised, which definitely won't happen every fight. Admittedly, it's a bit campaign dependent, but in my experience, you can see most encounters coming in advance, especially with decent scouting and proper paranoia.

Also who gets Haste? Oh yeah.

This must be DM/campaign dependent then, I've only occasionally seen players get several rounds to buff, and then only if they were planning an assault ahead of time. Ambush scenarios put the wizard at a distinct disadvantage, especially if their protection and offense rely on forewarning.

[Rebel7284]

That dragon shape is only going to have +6 to hit on the primary bite, and +1 for those secondaries. Fighting a CR 7 opponent, say a young red dragon with a base AC of 21, and that wizard will be lucky to hit with just the first attack, let alone the others.

Fighter has at least a +11 (7 BAB, 1 mw, 3 from str) for a 50/50 on the first attack and a 25/75 on the second.


That dragon has 9 touch AC. Wraithstrike for the win as usual.

[Zalphon]

Focused Transmuter 6/Duskblade 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Paragnostic Apostle 2/Eldritch Knight 6

Arcane Caster Level: 18
Base Attack Bonus: +16/+11/+6/+1

Weapon of Choice: +5 Great Club of Whatever (To Hit: +21/+16/+11/+6/Damage: 1d10+5/1d10+5/1d10+5/1d10+5)

Spells:

Greater Luminous Armor (+8 from spell; +5 from Abjurant Champion; +2 from Paragnostic Apostle Mind Over Matter - Total: +14)

Shield (+4 from Spell; +5 from Abjurant Champion; +2 from Paragnostic Apostle Mind Over Matter - Total: +11)

Greater Magic Weapon (+5 to Hit/Damage from Spell)

Greater Mighty Wallop (Increase Damage From Size by Five Categories (Medium->Large->Huge->Gargantuan->Colossal; Damage Dice becomes 6d8)

Wraith Strike (For One Round Your Melee Attacks Become Touch Attacks from Spell)

Feats:

Extend Spell

Persist Spell

Power Attack

Equipment:

Gloves of Ogre Strength +2

Belt of Giant Strength +6

Circlet of Intelligence +6

Ringsword of Your Choice

Total Perks from Spells/Equipment Alone:

35 Armor Class (assuming dexterity is 10)
+30/+25/+20/+15 to hit against touch at 6d8+14/6d8+14/6d8+14/6d8+14 damage before power attack (assuming Strength was 10 before equipment)

You ask if a wizard is a better fighter? I say, HELL YES.

[VoxRationis]

Your build is a hodgepodge of five different classes, none of which are straight wizard. Is Focused Transmuter from Unearthed Arcana or something?

[Story]

This must be DM/campaign dependent then, I've only occasionally seen players get several rounds to buff, and then only if they were planning an assault ahead of time. Ambush scenarios put the wizard at a distinct disadvantage, especially if their protection and offense rely on forewarning.

How often do you get ambushed though? Perhaps you need to invest in better Spot (or more accurately, get another party member to do so).



Your build is a hodgepodge of five different classes, none of which are straight wizard. Is Focused Transmuter from Unearthed Arcana or something?

Transmuter simply means the Wizard is specializing in Transmutation. Focused Specialist is a variant from Complete Mage that increases specialization.

[Vogonjeltz]

That dragon has 9 touch AC. Wraithstrike for the win as usual.

Clever, of course that's only going to operate for up to what, 4 rounds a day, 5+ for a high int? What does this wizard do against the other 3 encounters? Fighter doesn't have that problem.


How often do you get ambushed though? Perhaps you need to invest in better Spot (or more accurately, get another party member to do so).

It doesn't require an ambush, just no surprise round+ for the wizard and co. Nobody is going to throw up the minute/level spells unless they are certain there's a threat. Simultaneous awareness denies the wizard two rounds to sort themselves out.

*sorry I missed something, what's a glyph seal? Is it setting specific?

[Jack_Simth]

*sorry I missed something, what's a glyph seal? Is it setting specific?

Magic Item Compendium. It's an item, clearly designed and intended to be used as a trap, that lets you store a spell and trigger it later... however, lots of people realized: "Oh, hey, I can put a buff spell in this, mount it to the inside of my Mithral buckler, and set the trigger condition to whatever I want... like saying a particular word, as speaking is a free action that can be taken out of turn..."

[Vogonjeltz]

Magic Item Compendium. It's an item, clearly designed and intended to be used as a trap, that lets you store a spell and trigger it later... however, lots of people realized: "Oh, hey, I can put a buff spell in this, mount it to the inside of my Mithral buckler, and set the trigger condition to whatever I want... like saying a particular word, as speaking is a free action that can be taken out of turn..."

Glyph of warding only triggers on someone entering, passing or opening the warded area.

Verbal commands have no bearing on causing the triggering condition.

So while you could put it on a shield, none of the valid triggering conditions can come to pass (as it's neither a container nor a passageway)

[dextercorvia]

Glyph of warding only triggers on someone entering, passing or opening the warded area.

Verbal commands have no bearing on causing the triggering condition.

So while you could put it on a shield, none of the valid triggering conditions can come to pass (as it's neither a container nor a passageway)

So, you put it on one of your spell component pouches keyed to go off if you do not say a certain password. Guess what is a free action as part of casting a spell.

[Vogonjeltz]

So, you put it on one of your spell component pouches keyed to go off if you do not say a certain password. Guess what is a free action as part of casting a spell.

Manipulating an object is a move action, actually.

[weckar]

Interestingly, this actually happened in my last game. At 1st level, the martial fighter character had decent stats across the board, but the wizard had a 20 in Dex, 16 in Con and opted for an early Knowledge Devotion. Add to that a pretty decent racial weapon and the Wizard was doing more damage on the frontline without even employing any spells than the armored fighter was, the difference in Dex easily making up for the lack of armor on the Wizard. She also quickly gained a feat (I forget which) that allowed access to all knowledge skills untrained with a bonus. It was... mental, to engage in a pun.

[TuggyNE]

Manipulating an object is a move action, actually.

Oh come on, you can do better than that, surely!
To cast a spell with a material (M), focus (F), or divine focus (DF) component, you have to have the proper materials, as described by the spell. Unless these materials are elaborate preparing these materials is a free action.

[Story]

You can do it as a Free Action by RAW, but I usually do it as a move action, which is more clearly supported and less cheesy. They're still extremely good.

And putting a glyph on a single drawer of a cabinet is explicitly allowed, so I think it's clear that you can say, put a different one on every pocket of a backpack.

[Zalphon]

Even a straight 20 wizard could likely do better if they use "Persist Spell".

Greater Luminous Armor: +8 AC; -4 to-Hit to attackers in melee
Shield: +4 AC
Greater Mighty Wallop: +5 Size Categories For Damage
Greater Magic Weapon: +5 to-hit/+5 damage
Wraith Strike: Melee Attacks target Touch AC
Heroism: +2 to-hit/saves/skill checks
Haste: +1 Attack/Round, +1 to-hit/AC/Reflex Saves.

The Wizard, if a melee wizard, would have those spells cast as Persistent Spells at the beginning of their day and thus would be prepared.

Their poor BAB would be made up for with Greater Magic Weapon, Heroism, and Haste to some degree. Wraith Strike would ensure that a fighter's fancy armor would be next to worthless though. And Greater Mighty Wallop would make every hit rip hit points away.

The poor AC would be made up by Greater Luminous Armor, Shield, and Haste. At +13 AC and -4 to-hit in melee, the fighter will likely hit most every time, but he will occasionally miss.

The Wizard would be a glass cannon, but he'd be a powerful glass cannon at that.

[Jack_Simth]

Even a straight 20 wizard could likely do better if they use "Persist Spell".

Greater Luminous Armor: +8 AC; -4 to-Hit to attackers in melee
Shield: +4 AC
Greater Mighty Wallop: +5 Size Categories For Damage
Greater Magic Weapon: +5 to-hit/+5 damage
Wraith Strike: Melee Attacks target Touch AC
Heroism: +2 to-hit/saves/skill checks
Haste: +1 Attack/Round, +1 to-hit/AC/Reflex Saves.

The Wizard, if a melee wizard, would have those spells cast as Persistent Spells at the beginning of their day and thus would be prepared.

Their poor BAB would be made up for with Greater Magic Weapon, Heroism, and Haste to some degree. Wraith Strike would ensure that a fighter's fancy armor would be next to worthless though. And Greater Mighty Wallop would make every hit rip hit points away.

The poor AC would be made up by Greater Luminous Armor, Shield, and Haste. At +13 AC and -4 to-hit in melee, the fighter will likely hit most every time, but he will occasionally miss.

The Wizard would be a glass cannon, but he'd be a powerful glass cannon at that.

Don't forget the Extended Empowered False Life, and if you're going outside Core, that handy immediate-action Greater Mirror Image. Plus a Persistent Displacement, just for giggles.

[VoxRationis]

Interestingly, this actually happened in my last game. At 1st level, the martial fighter character had decent stats across the board, but the wizard had a 20 in Dex, 16 in Con and opted for an early Knowledge Devotion. Add to that a pretty decent racial weapon and the Wizard was doing more damage on the frontline without even employing any spells than the armored fighter was, the difference in Dex easily making up for the lack of armor on the Wizard. She also quickly gained a feat (I forget which) that allowed access to all knowledge skills untrained with a bonus. It was... mental, to engage in a pun.

I thought the Knowledge Devotion feat normally was a replacement for the Knowledge domain.

[Eldariel]

I thought the Knowledge Devotion feat normally was a replacement for the Knowledge domain.

That's one way to get it, but you can also pick it up as a feat (though not really as a level 1 character, it requires 5 ranks in a Knowledge-skill, which requires fairly heavy system abuse to achieve on level 1).